Chuck Missler on Harpazo: Rapture vs Second Coming, Post-Trib Problems, Premillennialism

[RememberPaulRevere]

They are the same events, just twisted by false teachings and fearful men. Those faithful to the end are not appointed to wrath, but embraced in love, those who allow themselves to be deceived by lies, converted to the false christ and his teachings, shall be met with wrath, just as foretold over and over again in the Bible.

Heb 11--Faith of the Patriachs

[allinlen]

The Pre trib rapture theory is not justified by scripture, and is setting the stage for the church to be completely unprepared to resist the antichrist.

[artnaranjo]

Ephraem of Nisibis is a Roman Catholic priest. I wouldn't believe anything coming from a Roman Catholic. If Chuck Missler wants to follow the Roman Catholic doctrine, then he will meet Gods wrath.

[sukruoosten]

can someone help me out !!!!!

i have some troubles with my parents (sin) en they broke the trust between us

i forgave them but i must say i really hope they are not my parents in heaven !!!

1 do we go into heaven as the same old earthly parents en family even if on earth you couldn't have a good relationship ???

2 what happens to marriage in heaven ??

3 can we have sex en make new children in gods kingdom ???

4 Isaiah talks about no more homeless en jobless en no need of money

is it POSSIBLE???

[LouNor251]

Since Missled - er, Missler - is reportedly a genius, you might enjoy reading more about him. If so, Google "Chuck Missler - Copyist," "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty," "Deceiving and Being Deceived" by MacPherson, "Pretrib Rapture - Hidden Facts," "Pretrib Rapture Secrecy" and "Pretrib Rapture Scholar Wannabes." You're welcome.

[iamboybeats]

7:07 did he seriously just say how can the virgins of Matthew 25 buy oil without the mark of the Beast!?!?!!? so the oil needed to meet the Bridegroom (Jesus Christ) at the wedding banquet spoke of in Matthew 25, is purchased with.... MONEY!??! you can't be serious... the OIL spoke of is referring to the HOLY SPIRIT!! what on earth would MONEY have to do with being accepted by JESUS!? forgive me for my agitation... but this is just plain silly. Come Holy Spirit and guide us in TRUTH!

[godwithme777]

ONLY THE 1611 KING JAMES BIBLE WHICJ IS BEING REMOVED FROM THE CORPORATE CHURCHES BECAUSE WE ARE IN THE END DAYS AND THE DECEPTION IS BEGINNING. THE ORIGINAL 1611 KJV IS THE ONLY ONE THAT IS TRUE AND PURE. THE NEWKJV HAS 20000 ERRRORS THE NIV HAS 60000 AND NOW GOD IS GENDERLESS IN THE LATES TRANSLATION. GO IS THE SAME YESTERDAY TODAY AND TOMORROW. LET THE HOLY SPIRIT TEACH YOU AND YOU WILL LEARN ABOUT THE PRETRIB RAPTURE. IT MUST BE STUDIED RIGHT! SHOW THYSELF APPROVED BY GOD. DONT B A ;LAZY 1

[MsCread]

this is yet more dispensationalism

[MsCread]

tribulation is not the same as God's wrath.

[ashqelonsunset]

Daniel 9 27 refutes the Pre tribulation Rapture heresy (Thank God).wmv

Daniel 9 27 The very verse that fully refutes the Pre-tribulation rapture philosophy.wmv

[thetruthimpart]

coming of the Lord happens first before the resurrection before the translation let no man decieve you - 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the WORD of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the COMING OF THE LORD shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall DESCEND from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise FIRST:

[rkg62976]

Wow! Too many errors to even begin.

1) The rapture and 2nd Advent are clearly the same event, not to be separated by a mythical 7 yr. period of tribulation.

2) There is no such thing as a 7 yr. period of tribulation; Dispensational futurists get this idea from a misreading, and misinterpretation of Dan.9:24-27 (specifically v.27).

3) Tribulation is always spoken of as something the saints must endure, not as something they will be raptured out of before it comes.

[venom769]

@rkg62976 the trick is you have to prove 1 and 2. as for 3, the tribulation before Christ's return is the "wrath of God." the Bible says we are not appointed unto wrath, and that we will be kept from the hour of trail to come upon the entire world." Noah and his family were saved from destruction. so the rapture isn't an escape from just persecution, of course Christians go through persecutions. i'm not sure about post or pre trib, but there are good arguments on both sides.

[rkg62976]

@venom769 Thanx for asking to prove my position by proper exegesis.

1) 1 Thes.4:16-17-- "The Lord descends from heaven with a shout...voice of archangel...trump of God..." This is a direct, opposite parallel with Acts 1:9-11 where the Lord ASCENDS out of the "sight" of the disciples. No separation of the Rapture from the Second Advent...they are clearly the same event. See also Mt.13:24-30,36-43 for the 2nd Advent (which is the time of the Rapture).

[venom769]

@rkg62976 I'm still working through all these scriptures myself. I've heard good arguments for both sides. Currently, I'm looking at the arguments for pre-trib on Don Koenig's website. If you're interested, look him up, he gives a very detailed lay-out of the differences better than Chuck does here.

[rkg62976]

2) The 70 weeks of Daniel. Dispensational futurists claim that the 70th wk. is still seeking fulfillment. However, they assert this by reading into Dan.9:27 the antichrist. But antichrist is nowhere spoken of in Dan.9:27; there are plenty of other Scriptures that speak of antichrist, but Dan9:27 is not one of them.

The 70th wk. was fulfilled by Jesus' 3.5 yr. ministry, and the subsequent ministry of the apostles to primarily the Jews for the next 3.5 yrs. Then, the gospel goes to Gentiles.

[venom769]

@rkg62976 yes, the antichrist is "the prince who is to come." The people of this prince destroy Jerusalem. Daniel 9 says first, the 7 weeks, then 62 weeks, then Messiah(Jesus) cut off, then the people of the prince(the Romans), destroy Jerusalem, and finally AFTER, that prince shall confirm a 7 year covenant. This should also be clear from Revelation. you're using an erroneous amillenial view which must make it really difficult to understand God's promises to physical Israel.

[rkg62976]

@venom769 1) I am NOT an amillennialist (please don't assume such fallacy).

2) There is no reason to insert a "gap" between the 69th and 70th weeks; the prophecy is a continual one, with no "gaps" (Dan.9:24-27).

3) Nowhere in Scripture is it intimated that antichrist makes a covenant with anyone. Covenant language is God/Messianic language.

4) Dan.9:27 is speaking of the temple destruction in 70 A.D.; nothing to do with antichrist.

[venom769]

@rkg62976 sorry, i won't put a label on your views. the reason for the gap is because during the final week, after the Messiah is "cut off", the "prince" sets up the abomination of desolation(Dan. 9:27; Dan. 12:11). Jesus warns us that this is not of Him but part of the tribulation before His return.(Matt. 24:15-31). an ANTI-christ can set up a false covenant. Read Dan 9:26-27 again. The order is Jerusalem is destroyed, THEN the final week remains AFTER.

[rkg62976]

@venom769 1) The "abomination of desolation" in Dan.9:27 is different than that of 12:11, and 11:31. Different Hebrew phrasiology is used for Dan.9:27 than 12:11, and 11:31. And they are speaking of two different, historical periods.

2) Jesus is Mt.24:15 is referring to Dan.9:27 (the temple destruction in 70 A.D.); He is NOT referring to 12:11, or 11:31.

3) Dan.9:27 clearly speaks of the temple being destroyed BECAUSE of the rejection of Messiah; it is clearly after the final week.

[venom769]

@rkg62976 please clarify what you believe 12:11 and 11:31 are referring to

[venom769]

@rkg62976 Also, you say Mt. 24:15 refers to the temple destruction in 70 AD. but Mt. 24:15 continues on and says in V.29-31 "immediately after the tribulation of those days...Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven...gather together His elect..." Did that happen after 70 AD?

[rkg62976]

@venom769 Notice that you are jumping from Mt.24:15 all the way down to v.29-31. One must be careful when attempting to exegete Mt.24.

Preterists: view the entirety of Mt.24 as having been fulfilled by 70 A.D. (I deny this fallacious interpretation).

Futurists (such as yourself): view the entirety of Mt.24 as taking place in the "future", during a mythical 7 year period of tribulation.

Mt.24 is clearly speaking about two separate events: 1) the temple destruction (70 A.D.); 2) the 2nd Advent

[venom769]

@rkg62976 So where exactly is the break in your view? From the plain reading of the text, what is spoken of in V.15 goes along with 16-28, as well. There is no separation. You are using some sort of inductive reasoning to assume it, and the burden of proof is on you. with V.29, it says "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..." Read V.15-31 and point out where the separation of events occur. it's not there.

[venom769]

@rkg62976 also, why am i a "futurist" and you aren't?  do you believe Jesus already returned or is that some event to occur in the future? if so, "what are the signs of His coming?" that's what Matt. 24 is answering. since the abomination of desolation is smack right in the middle of the discourse, haven't you thought of the possibility that its speaking of something beyond 70 AD? can't you acknowledge that the Bible uses shadows and types of things and events to demonstrate future events?

[rkg62976]

@venom769 Futurists, especially dispensational futurists, believe that the antichrist is yet to be revealed; that there will be a literal temple in the literal, modern, nation-state of Israel, and that a majority of the book of Revelation is yet to be fulfilled...all this in the "future" from our present day. Hence, the term "futurist".

No, I do not believe the 2nd Advent has happened yet.

Again, Mt.24 is NOT the place to begin a discussion of Bible prophecy.

[venom769]

@rkg62976 why not? i would strongly recommend looking at other scriptures, such as in Daniel and Revelation, to help put everything into context, yes. But the disciples asked Jesus about His coming and end of the age, and Jesus answered. you still haven't explained to me why Jesus' reference to the abomination of desolation, being right there in the middle of His discussion of end time events, is to be isolated from the end times.

[rkg62976]

@venom769 Mt.24:15-- "abomination of desolation" v.16: "let them which be in Judea flea to the mountains"; v.17: don't take anything from your houses; v.20: pray that flight not be in winter or on Sabbath...etc. These are all in reference to the temple destruction in 70 A.D. As a futurist, you are simply reading into the entirety of Mt.24 your own presuppositions.

This is why I said that I never begin a study of eschatological interpretation with Mt.24. It is simply unnecessary.

[rkg62976]

@venom769 Remember that Mt.24 begins with the disciples asking two major questions:

Q.1: "When shall these things [the temple destruction] be?"

Q.2: "What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world/age?"

Jesus blends His answer to these two questions throughout the rest of Mt.24. One must use discernment in understanding the chapter. This is why I personally NEVER begin a study on eschatology with Mt.24.

I go to more unambiguous passages which speak more clearly.

[venom769]

@rkg62976 I believe there are certain events in biblical history that act to foreshadow later events. as God promised, Israel is a nation again, and they want to rebuild the temple. again, read the entire discourse and in plain reading, the abomination of desolation is linked with end time events: nation against nation, false christs/prophets, being hated by all nations, gospel preached in all the world, etc. this tribulation is "immediately" followed by Christ's return.

[rkg62976]

@venom769 Dan.9:27 "And he [Jesus, not antichrist] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the midst of the week [after Jesus' 3.5 yr. earthly ministry, He was crucified] he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease [because of the perfect, atoning work of Messiah, the temple sacrifices ceased to be of any value]; And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate [in 70 A.D., Jerusalem and the temple was destroyed]..."

[rkg62976]

@venom769 Notice that v.26 says, "after the 62 weeks (69 weeks total) Messiah will be cut off..."

It does NOT say that at the very close of the 69 weeks Messiah will be cut off (crucified).

Verse 27 gives us more information than v.26.  Verse 27 tells us that the crucifixion will happen "in the midst of the week", that is, in the middle of the 70th week.

As a result corporate Israel's rejection of Messiah...the temple/city would be destroyed by Titus in 70 A.D. (v.27b).

[venom769]

@rkg62976 i don't get that interpretation from the plain reading in English, NKJV. It's clear from this translation that first the Messiah is cut off, and Jerusalem is destroyed(v.26). V.27 follows and starts with "Then he..."(he, referring to the prince who is to come, whose people destroyed Jerusalem), confirms a covenant for 1 week(interpreted as 7 years). When does the final week(7 years) occur in your time-line? And if we are to go against the plain English reading, we might need Hebrew

[rkg62976]

@venom769 Verse 27 is a recapitulation of verse 26. This is the literary structure of Daniel's prophecy (Dan.9:24-27):

V.26a "after 62 (69) weeks shall Messiah be cut off..." This corresponds to V.27a: "And he shall confirm the covenant..."

V.26b "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy city/sanctuary..." (Titus in 70 A.D.). This corresponds to V.27b: "on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate (Titus in 70 A.D.).

Parallel passages; not chronological.

[venom769]

@rkg62976 the "he" who confirms the covenant, following rules of grammar, refers to the noun before it, "prince." this prince is "of the people" who destroy the city, and this prince "is to come"(future, in reference to the destruction of the city). That is the plain reading, no grammar gymnastics required. you would have to provide a stronger case to prove otherwise and go against the plain reading, which is also supported in the Hebrew.

[rkg62976]

@venom769 There are two ways one can interpret the "prince of the people..." in v.26:

1) It is referring to Titus; which, if your understanding is correct would mean that he is the one who "confirms the covenant" in v.27. So your belief that v.27 is speaking of a future antichrist would fail...according to your own logic.

2) the "prince" in v.26 is the same as the "Prince" in v.25. In that case, the grammatical rule of antecedent nouns holds true...and your theory of a future 7 yrs. fails.

[venom769]

@rkg62976 THE PEOPLE OF "the prince who is to come" SHALL DESTROY THE CITY. it doesn't say the prince shall destroy the city, but the people of the prince. the Romans did destroy the city in 70 AD, but Titus is not the prince, because the prince "is to come". that is why many scholars believe in a revived Roman empire from which the prince shall rule in the future. there are 2 princes here, the Messiah, and the one linked to the people who destroy the city. this is plain reading of the text

[rkg62976]

@venom769 More inconsistencies! Your position has been refuted on several accounts.

Your fallacious "gap theory", as I have thoroughly proven, is simply a case of eisegesis (reading into the text your own dispensational futurist interpretation), rather than exegesis (getting out of the text what the text is actually saying).

I'm sorry, friend, but you have been deceived. Your traditions are blinding you to the truth of God's prophetic Word..

[venom769]

@rkg62976 So you have 2 major hurdles working against you, according to the rules of grammar and straight-forward reading of these passages

1. prove that the abomination of desolation is isolated from events described before and after(beginning of sorrows, hated by all nations, gospel preached to the world, etc immediately followed by Christ's return.

2. prove that the "he" in Daniel 9:27 refers to Jesus and not the prince. i do see why you might think that, but that's inductive reasoning

[rkg62976]

@venom769

Dan.9:27, and the "he" that "confirms the covenant".

1) Nowhere is Scripture does antichrist make a "covenant" with anyone, as he has not the power to do so.

2) the "prince" of v.26 refers either to Titus (in which case your dispensational futurist interpretation fails); or, to Jesus (the "Prince" of v.25). In either one of these two options your interpretation fails because you hold to a fallacious tradition, rather than the continual prophecy of Dan.9:24-27.

[venom769]

@rkg62976 The true Christ, Jesus, makes a true covenant. an Anti-christ makes a false one. That is why Dan 9:27 is linked to the abomination of desolation. This is further brought to light in other scriptures, such as Rev. 13:4-17, mentioning 3 1/2 years of anti-christ rule over the entire earth, and again blasphemy in the tabernacle and against God. what happened in 70 AD is a little type of the great coming tribulation, which is plain by "authority over every tribe, tongue, and nation."

[rkg62976]

@venom769 Again, nowhere does the antichrist make a covenant with anyone (whether true or false)!

Rev.13:5 (the 1260 days, are to be read as literal YEARS!), and has nothing to do with the 70th week of Dan.9:24-27. This is where the inconsistency lies in your dispensational/futurist hermeneutic.

You agree with the Jesuit priest, Francisco Ribera (who taught a literal 3.5 yrs.), over and against the Reformers (who taught the day=year principle concerning the 1260 days/years).

[venom769]

@rkg62976 You have continually ignored the plain reading of the scriptures, never addressing references to the signs of Jesus' coming! nation against nation, world-wide persecution, gospel being preached until the ends of the earth, worship of the beast, mark of the beast, immediately followed by the second return. read these scriptures again straight-forward with no preconceived doctrine because i am simply reading what's there. there are little types and shadows of things, 70 AD was just one

[rkg62976]

@venom769 I have consistently pointed out that Mt.24 is NOT the place to begin a dialogue on eschatological interpretation. Again: Preterists see the entirety of Mt.24 as having been fulfilled by 70 A.D. (this is fallacious); 2) Futurists (like yourself) believe that the entirety of Mt.24 as speaking ONLY of the mythical "7 yr. period of tribulation" during earths final stage before the Second Advent.

Both of these extreme views are fallacious. I think I've made my point very clearly.

[venom769]

@rkg62976 yes you keep "pointing things out" but never answer the objections. why not use Mt. 24? Jesus certainly answered questions in that passage concerning eschatology! You have to make your case and answer the objections raised which break down your argument. for example, the people of the prince destroy Jerusalem; the prince is to come. the prince makes the covenant. your argument can't be "a false prince doesn't make a covenant." that's just an assertion.

[rkg62976]

@venom769 Yes, Jesus did point out important teaching in Mt.24; but Mt.24 is NOT the place to BEGIN a discussion on eschatology because of the fact that you (as a dispensational futurist) read into the text your own presuppositions. If one wishes to learn the truth about eschatology, the primary places to go are Dan.2,7; and Revelation (specifically, with regard to the antichrist, ch.13).

But first, we must establish that Dan.9:24-27 was completely fulfilled in the 1st century.

[rkg62976]

@venom769 It's interesting that you mention "worship of the beast", and, "mark of the beast". Of course, Mt.24 says nothing about these things.

Second, you will never be able to properly identify the antichrist because you believe in a future, individual, "Mr. Diabolical", that only comes on the scene after the church has been raptured, and the 70th week commences.

In fact, your whole, erroneous eschatological system is based upon a misinterpretation of Dan.9:24-27.

[venom769]

@rkg62976 Mt. 24 discusses signs before Jesus' coming as King. What part of that are you not understanding? So does Revelations. We see similarities in Daniel, as well. The Bible must be understood as a whole, and what Jesus references in Mt. 24 sheds light on Dan 9, and vice-versa. abomination of desolation, tribulation, persecution, one world system, false prince are all tied in together when you look at scripture as a whole and not through whatever doctrinal lens you're looking through.

[rkg62976]

@venom769 If you would like me to send you a breakdown on the entirety of Mt.24, I will be glad to do that. Just let me know, and I will send it to you via the "personal messages" tool on your youtube page.

However, Dan.2, and 7 are the best places to begin a study of eschatology, not Mt.24, and I have already stated.

[rkg62976]

You said, "the Bible says we are not appointed unto wrath". I would ask you to at least cite the passage from which you are quoting. In this case, it is 1Thes.5:9. But this passage says absolutely nothing about being raptured before the wrath of God comes upon the world. Rather, if one examines the 7 last plagues (Rev.16), one will see that the plagues [of God's wrath] are poured out upon those with the Mark of the Beast [not God's people who are living at the time].

Please ask more ?'s.

[venom769]

@rkg62976 The irony is killing me here. I am simply reading what the text says, word for word. I am not reading anything into the scriptures. YOU, on the other hand, misapply Titus as the prince, and remove the abomination of desolation from end time events, which is clearly your eisegesis, which i have demonstrated to you. you insist that your baseless assertions prove your point. and you say i'm deceived. i have no denomination nor do i brand myself doctrinally, i just believe the Word.

[rkg62976]

@venom769 Those who deny they have any traditions, are most often the biggest slaves to their traditions.

In the case of separating the 70th week from the 69 weeks of Dan.9:24-27, and throwing the 70th week all the way into the future, it is certainly a TRADITION not based upon the exegesis of the text.

[venom769]

@rkg62976 Also, believing in what the Bible says, reading through different views of eschatology, and looking at the world around me, i see God keeps His promises to Israel. I also see that we live in a time of advanced technology, knowledge, and world-wide apostasy that make sense out of prophecies that could have never been fulfilled before in history until these times we live in. The Lord may tarry but the world has set the stage.

[rkg62976]

@venom769

Of course God keeps His promises to the Israel of God. Of course, these promises have absolutely nothing to do with the literal, modern, middle eastern nation-state that calls itself "Israel". Nor does it have anything to do with physical descent. But the promises of God have everything to do with the true seed of Abraham...

Please keep studying as it is clear you are so wedded to your traditions, you can't yet understand the truth.

Soli Deo Gloria!

[venom769]

@rkg62976 I don't want to go back and forth pointlessly, but maybe we can clear some things up. are your views in line with partial preterism? you say i'm weeded in traditions, but i am sincerely trying to read the Word for what it says, and may God open my understanding. just read the passages again and try to understand what they actually say without having any "interpretation" in mind. if you're not partial preterist, please forgive my assumption. a great consensus of Bible scholars...

[rkg62976]

@venom769 Well, I sincerely appreciate your willingness to truly understand Bible prophecy. No, I am not a partial preterist. I am a firm historicist. That is, I believe the books of Daniel (esp. ch.2 & 7), and the book of Revelation especially, contains a progressive revelation of events that would take place over the entire Christian age, from the time of Christ's ascension until His Second Advent and beyond.

The Historicist perspective is the position of the Reformers.

[venom769]

@rkg62976 agree on the following: ""The partial preterist viewpoint is unbiblical due to its inconsistent hermeneutics, subjective interpretation, and allegorization of many biblical prophecies that are best understood literally. it does not have good biblical support. Scripture should be read in a normal sense, taking into account the historical setting, the grammar, and the context of the Scripture in order to determine the meaning that the Lord intended."

[rkg62976]

@venom769 Yes, the preterist (partial or otherwise) is fallacious...although contains some truth.

The futurist position (which you adhere to) is equally erroneous...though it also contains some truth.

In fact, during the Reformation, there were two Jesuit priests who re-introduced the preterist and futurist positions over and against the Reformers who wrote, and expounded upon the issue of Bible prophecy.

The Reformers were for the most part, Historicist.

[venom769]

@rkg62976 well let's agree to disagree for now. i appreciate having a polite discussion. i will look into the historicist perspective, and while my views seem to fit well within a dispensational perspective, i pray that God will daily guide my ways and my understanding of the Bible. may He do the same for you.

[KeyboardPacifist]

"dispensational perspective" was poorly explored during the post-nicean era (Constantine to the Reformation). The roman assembly stripped all things "jewish" & then used interpretatio-roma, using all the pro-Israel verses in a massive ongoing apologetic pyramid scheme. They robbed us & guess what, The augustinian-Reformers did nothing to reform that. They did some good -but did nothing to undo the eschatology lies & there is NO reason to put them on the same level as the 1st century believers

[JimmyCarol100]

One more thing, where does he get that the church is the bride of Christ, when John wrote in Revelation 21:2 that he saw Holy New Jerusalem coming down from GOD out of Heaven as a bride adorned for her husband. And n Rev 21:9 & 10 That the Angel of the Lord said Come hither & I'll SHOW you the Lamb's wife, & the Angel carried John away n spirit & showed him Holy Jerusalem desending out of Heaven from GOD. The Bride of the Lamb will be Holy New Jerusalem, that's GOD's WORD, not mine. Peace2All

[tuberobotto]

@JimmyCarol100 I hope you're not reading from the NIV. If you move to Chap.22:17 you will see there are two persons mentioned - The Spirit and the BRIDE and they say "come". If the bride was Holy Jerusalem, would it speak and say "come"? In earthly terms have you ever heard anyone marrying a 'house' or a 'city'? You just lack further reading. After you read Ch 21:9-10, you stopped and then you based your conclusions on just those two verses - that's not very helpful is it?

[JimmyCarol100]

@tuberobotto I read KJV. GOD's word says Rev 21:9-10 sayn New Jerusalem is the bride,not me & verse 11 says Having the Glory of GOD. Who did GOD divorce ? Jeremiah 3 tells of GODs divorce & that HE will take her back & verse 17 says He'll place HIS throne there & all nations will gather there. New Jerusalem is where the LORD Almighty & the Lamb will reside & furnish the river of life for the thirsty & the tree of life for healing, No more curse. Rev 22:5 GOD & Lamb reign 4ever. With luv Peace2Ya

[KeyboardPacifist]

tuberobotto, JimmyCarol100 - You guys are talking about the same thing.. you just havent been shown it yet. God is gracious. If you see this and want to go over it - I'll use whatever translation you want. We can go to whatever language and go through the entire context. Shalom. .. ps. the KJV-worship is relatively new and such a divisive thing doesnt help brothers to "rightly dissect the word" It only keeps them weak, bickering and dependant on fairweather seminary, culturalists

[KeyboardPacifist]

@JimmyCarol100 ...... You guys are talking about the same thing.. you just havent been shown it yet. God is gracious. If you see this and want to go over it - I'll use whatever translation you want. We can go to whatever language and go through the entire context. Shalom.

[JimmyCarol100]

All I ask is people look up the Greek word G3952=Parousia which is translated 22 times="coming" of Christ-2nd Advent, 2 times" presence"=visible, "Parousia" used 24 times n 24 verses n the New Testament (KJV) 18 of those times speakn of Jesus return, the 2nd Advent & the other 6 times refers to people physically & visibly being seen. So if people will read these 24 verses I think that they will come to the same conclusion I did=NO RAPTURE yet there will be a 2nd coming, Advent, Peace2All

[JaredThaJa]

The so called Post-Trib problem aren't as major as Matthew 24 Jesus clearly saying "After the Tribulation of those days" after he'd just described the Abomination of Desolation. And Paul explicitly says, in reference to out meeting him in the clouds, "That day shall NOT come" until "The man of Sins is reveled".

[SRamdhani1]

Jesus never taught that He will come in secret. The fact is, Jesus' Coming in the Gospels & His Return in Rev.19 are two separate events, In the Gospels He comes the 2nd time, FOR the Church. At Armageddon, He comes WITH the Church. The problem with the Church is that they don't believe Him. Jesus says He will be Revealed IN THAT DAY when the Jews Flee to the mountains in haste ( Lk. 17:30,31 ). That day is at the Abomination of Desolation (Mt.24:15-18) according to Jesus.

[n2h2o2]

Again stop the video at 9:04 Look these verses up. Daniel 9 does not mention the antichrist at all! His interpretation is allegory.

The BIG LIE is Dr. Missler's last line. Look up 2 Thessalonians 2 but read it ALL from verse 1 through 12

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him...Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for [that day will not come] until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed...

" Dr Missler CONTRADICTS THE BIBLE!

[n2h2o2]

Again stop the video at 3:33. Now He calls this the "Great Tribulation" that the believers are supposed to miss because they have already been raptured. Look up those verses in Mathew 24 and then read a few verses before them. Matthew 24 14 "When YOU see standing in the Holy Place..." who is Paul talking to?And then look after those verses: Matthew 24: 22: ..."for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened. I thought the "elect" were already raptured? This pretrib lie has to be stopped!

[n2h2o2]

If you will stop the video at 00:15 and actually look up every verse (as I have) you will find that NOT ONE confirms a secret rapture. Infact, many have nothing to do with the rapture or even the second coming! And even others actually comfirm the post tribulation rapture! Example: 1 Corinthians 1:7-8 Calls His coming as "The Day of the Lord". This is the same day that is the beginning of wrath. And the big mistake Chuck made was 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 as this warns about and rebukes the pretrib.

[thetruthimpart]

Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.-- Can anyone see any other time in this verse? It speaks plain enough to me

[thetruthimpart]

Show me one verse showing that Jesus will come twice or in reference to his coming, where there is a word or phrase, where it's plural it is always singular. Jesus is returning once.

[doulosOfMessiah]

@thetruthimpart "Jesus is returning once."

Absolutely true.

[allanford22]

@thetruthimpart The problem is that whilst Jesus comes ONCE for His Church (or Bride,in Revelation that same Church follow Jesus back from Heaven as He returns in judgement.So,yes the Bible certainly teaches 2 comings,although there is not a verse that clearly states it. Its a bit like the Trinity Doctrine.It is not contained in 1 verse alone,but is clearly taught as Scripture is compared with Scripture

[thetruthimpart]

@allanford22 my concern is that what is the fruit of the rapture other than trying to put fear in people that Jesus could come any moment, ,does it comfort anyone suffering now, does it give hope to one suffering now, does it prepare anyone right now to suffer for the Name of Jesus Christ .what about the teachings of Jesus and the apostles about suffering and dying for the Lord and the Spirit of prophecy that all that is wriiten of Jesus and those that are his must be fulfilled .

[thetruthimpart]

@allanford22 all i see is men getting rich from books and movies and those that believe this are ill-equiped to go through tribulation and are ripe for falling away when tribulation comes and it will those that are taught this what could they say i always thought or i was taught i would not be here to go through this or see these things coming upon the earth but those that are prepared will be ready to die for the Lord and looking up for the return of our Lord Jesus

[REPTILEMIC]

@thetruthimpart it's not mentioned plural because it's mention singular twice, two different ways

[REPTILEMIC]

@thetruthimpart Jesus can't come, fight at armageddon and have the marriage supper all in one day can He? Not forgetting to mention the fact that the saints come back on earth to fight the evil.

[thetruthimpart]

@REPTILEMIC yes He can and only the 144,000 stand with Jesus the Lamb shall overcome them the battle is not yours but God's the rest stand on the sea of glass Rev.15:2 untill the last seven plagues are poured out

[JimmyCarol100]

@thetruthimpart I agree with ya on the word translation for "coming" Greek Word "G3952" which in the manuscripts is "Parousia" and in the New Testament its used 24 times with 18 of'em referring to Jesus, and like you said its always in the singular, & most scholars refer to the passages that concerns Jesus as the second advent, so that right there should tell people that there's not another secret coming as so many have been lied too. Wanted to let you know someone agrees with ya. Peace2Ya

[thetruthimpart]

@JimmyCarol100 thanks keep looking up Jesus is coming one day we have blessed hope of the resurrection from the dead pretribbers are always talking about the rapture or being caught up they seem to forget the first resurrection happens first dead in Christ rise first and all are not martyred until they overcame the anti-christ and the number of his name which is after great tribulation

[godwithme777]

@thetruthimpart YOUR'E NOT PAYING ATTENTION

[thetruthimpart]

@godwithme777 1)Yes, I am attentive and this is just three verses of Misler's notes his so called rapture verses they speak of the Lord Jesus coming it will be one event Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will COME again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. 2Th 2:1 ¶ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,

[thetruthimpart]

@godwithme777 2)1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his COMING. - I could go all the way through the verses and tear this false teaching apart but I really do not have to because it is based on a lie and no lie is of truth and it will not stand.

[BigMac12121983]

@thetruthimpart

Read Mark 13:32. Even Jesus didn't know his coming! That can't be the second coming! Jeses knew that when he read Isaiah 61.

BTW, also read Revelation 19 and tell me where's the "rapture" there.

[thetruthimpart]

@BigMac12121983 Mar 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is - Watch and pray for what His coming which is -Mar 13:24 ¶ But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

[BigMac12121983]

@thetruthimpart Mark 13

32But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Pretty clear that this is pre-trib.

[thetruthimpart]

@BigMac12121983 how can you say that when just a few verses before He say after tribulation show one verse that jesus Comes before tribulation or a verse to reffering to Jesus coming or returmn or appearing is plural it is always come Lord Jesus singular you will never read about His comings or returnings or appearings only when men twist the word to there own destruction do you hear of anything else let no man deceive Hope you will be an Overcomer

[BigMac12121983]

@thetruthimpart Because he said at an hour you think not.

I don't know when he comes. That's different from the Second coming, when almost everybody on Earth knows his coming, even Antichrist.

[thetruthimpart]

@BigMac12121983 so be prepared to go through anything and ask the Lord Jesus for the truth His truth will remain not man's be prepared to go through the tribulation and be an overcomer because will need His strength to endure such terrible time for this earth and pick up your cross and follow Jesus

[BigMac12121983]

@thetruthimpart Have you? We are not appointed to wrath. I pray to Jesus to escape the things that are coming.

[thetruthimpart]

@BigMac12121983 from same book and acts tribulation is not wrath note appointed and accounted 1Th 3:3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

[BigMac12121983]

@thetruthimpart I have read Revelation, and God's wrath is all throughout Chapter 6-19.  It is indeed wrath.

[thetruthimpart]

@BigMac12121983 and all servants are sealed before the first trump and and protected from the plagues and the beast is not released until the fifth trump the two witness pour out plagues Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have NOT the seal of God in their foreheads

[BigMac12121983]

@thetruthimpart Those are not the Church.  The church is off the earth before Revelation 9. I do belive the 24 elders ARE the completed church.

[thetruthimpart]

@BigMac12121983 Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. John was caught up to receive The Revelation for the church not the chruch being caught up Listen to what they say where do they reign and when is it that at the first resurrection when Jesus returns the dead in Christ first at the first resurrection then those that are alive are changed they live reign 1000yrs then the end of the world

[BigMac12121983]

@thetruthimpart That seems unfair for just John the Revelator to be up there for the Tribulaton and I don't. Don't you see the problem? Why doesn't John get to go through the Tribulation?

[thetruthimpart]

@BigMac12121983 Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom ... Rev 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. Rev 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings. - they are sealed up seven thunders uttererd and are in John He must prohecy again Rev.10:4

[thetruthimpart]

@BigMac12121983 Rev 10:8 ¶ And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go [and] take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. Rev 10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take [it], and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

[thetruthimpart]

@BigMac12121983 Rev 11:1 ¶ And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. Rev 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth

Only two prophet's prophecy are sealed to the end Daniel prophet to babylon and John the prophet to the churches

[issacharshow]

@BigMac12121983 John saw the future....a future he would be dead in when it came. John wasn't removed from the tribulation by rapture he was removed from the tribulation by death. Is he not one of the dead in Christ? P.S. John saw a lot of "tribulation" before he died.

[thetruthimpart]

@BigMac12121983 Mar 13:18 And PRAY ye that your flight be not in the winter.

Mar 13:19 For [in] those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.



[BigMac12121983]

@thetruthimpart I'm not Jewish, I don't have to abide by the Sabbath laws.

BTW, where's the Church in Daniel 9? Why put the church in the tribulation when it didn't existed before Pentacast?

[thetruthimpart]

at His coming 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (Rev 20:4 at the first resurrection after all have been martyred Rev 12:11 at His coming )-.Rev 19:11 ¶ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

[BigMac12121983]

@thetruthimpart I don't see the ressurection in Revelation 19. But Revelation 12 has it. When the man-child gets "Caught up."

[BigMac12121983]

@thetruthimpart Jesus said that he didn't know his coming. Are you going to deny that? The truth is NO CHRISTIAN knows his coming. Care to disprove that truth?

[thetruthimpart]

@BigMac12121983 we Know it will be after great tribulation just like He said when you see all theses things come to pass you know it is close and No I do not disprove the truth and understand why it is that way because Jesus is gracious men would waite to last moment repent and be saved and thats not what He wanted but to have the fellowship with his creation daily and I am ready now and waite and pray and looking for His return and tell others they can have that fellowship now and follow Jesus

[BigMac12121983]

@thetruthimpart But what about when he says that no man knows the hour? That can't be the second coming, beause that is set in stone, so to speak, at the end of the Tribulation.

[jeawiz1]

If you are re-born but do not believe in the Rapture, do you get Raptured anyways?

[doulosOfMessiah]

@jeawiz1 Absolutely.

[allanford22]

@jeawiz1According to Scripture Jesus's 2nd comiing will be for those that are eagerly looking foreward to. His appearing. It is not possible to become born-again without believing the Bible and that clearly teaches a rapture,so it might be wise to start believing in one.

[KeyboardPacifist]

@allanford22 ...... that's twisted. Where it does the bible say that you have to believe and know every word of all it >>>> ??? I'm pretty sure that you do not know (and therefore do have pistous - belief) in all of it. So are you condemning yourself? ...... God reveals to each as they walk with Him. Some are gifted to teach - and some are unfortunate not to have good teachers.... but the Faith that leads to Eternal Life is the Confession of The Redeeming Blood of Christ and the Walk with Him

[KeyboardPacifist]

1st & 2nd century believers DIDNT have "the bible" that make the rapture CLEAR. They all taught "the way" of Yahshua fr the Tanakh& many cant understand the rapture in there (as Paulos later taught). It might be wise to rethink what you believe about "faith in the chapters of a book you dont fully understand".. versus faith that God will reveal His Word in your life. Millions have not had a bible or heard much of it - yet believed & lived in Faith in Yahshua, they will be raised on the last day

[thetruthimpart]

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; the first resurection is after all those that have been martyred for the Lord Jesus after the appearing of the anti-christ Rev.20:4

[thetruthimpart]

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

[sefardimyeshua]

Paul clearly states that first the dead in Messiah shall rise (resurrection of the dead), then we that are still alive shall be caught up (rapture). The rapture MUST follow the resurrection. Mr. Missler's theology requires that there be two resurrections of the dead (one at the time of the rapture and one at the end of the great tribulation). Mr. Missler fails to cite scripture references for all of his allegations regarding the rapture.

[allanford22]

@sefardimyeshua Actually Paul is suggesting that the ressurection of the dead in Christ,AND the "changing of the living believers body both happen at the exact same time.It seems that the reason for this is that BOTH groups are caught up TOGETHER to meet the Lord in the air.This way one group does not have the privilige to get to Jesus first.Hence the ressurection and rapture are a simultaneous event.