As used in SOLARIS this piece ruefully pointed out that communication and intervention between radically different species would most likely turn out tragically misguided. Bach's music suggests that mankind should seek existential solace from communication with a merciful deity. Might that also be misguided. Just a speculation!
As used in SOLARIS this piece ruefully pointed out that communication and intervention between radically different species would most likely turn out tragically misguided. Bach's music suggests that mankind should seek existential solace from communication with a merciful diety. Perhaps that may be also misguided. Just a speculation!
@dinnerpianist, let's forget aliens. What if Bach's music does offer not the existential solace but a bit of the truth which is unique, the same for each human being? I'm sure that any merciful diety bless listening 639 throughout the Earth.
ihr mit eurem impotenten möchtegern befreier, unterdrücker der fleischlichen lust der schönsten lust von allen nmein herr satan wird euch alle zu sich holen XD JA!
very valid comment - still I like that in this version the deceptively simple melody line gets emphasised. But you're right, you have to strain your ears to get the complementing effect of the other voices.
If you love this piece, then you must taste Cesar Franck's "Prelude, fugue, and variations". It's available at "pbenedicto28" (excellent organ version!)
@GoblinGirl In the beginning and throughout the movie. The most striking usage of the melody however is in a scene shortly before the ending (where they start floating) and during the absolutely mind-blowing ending.
A true masterpiece, both the movie and this song, along with this interpretation.
Yeah, i dont believe, well to my knowledge, that Ich ruf zu dir herr jesu christ was ever attempted on accordion, well atleats in the youtube community. I will try to put it up if i master it.
I think Youtube community should expand its ranks and record all Bach's organ pieces on piano (BWV 543), orchestra (like BWV 582, 578) and accordion (BWV 542).
Así la conocí yo también. Se unen las dos impresiones: la de la película, tan irreal y misteriosa y la de la música propiamente dicha. Entro en trance al escucharla.
this was written the night after bach's wife died and lipatti was terminal with leukaemia when he played it. people, if you don't feel suicidal while hearing this, you've got no heart... ;)
There's no evidence this piece is connected with any death. Bach was out of town when his wife died; he didn't return until she was already buried.
This is is one of 46 organ chorale preludes Bach assembled for the stated purpose of instructing beginning organists in setting chorales in diverse ways with obbligato pedal.
"if you don't feel suicidal..."? marcdunord ends his silly remarks with a wink.
wcbroccoli, I think you miss the point. Yes, Bach composed this piece for a specific purpose, but that does not mean that we can not experience an emotional response. What a dull and impoverished musical life it would be to respond to music at an intellectual level only.
Furthermore, how can you deny the sorrowful nature of the piece. "Ich ruf zu dir" means "I call to thee." Even the words express desperation and the hope of consolation through Christ. Bach is over your head.
Well, what do you think the psalm is about? Rejoicing for one's sorrow? Define lamentation and despair for me, then. The psalm calls for strength through Christ in a time of doubt or troubles. Are you a Biblical scholar? Do you read Hebrew? Do you claim to know absolute truths concerning scripture and Bach?
Thanks for Bible 101. I know that the Psalms are Old Testament, but the chorale refers to "Herr Jesu Christ."
No psalm explicitly addresses Christ, I know - duh. Most of the New Testament is a Christian interpretation of the Old Testament.
I asked if you knew Hebrew because you write with assumed authority to the point of arrogance.
I imagine your idea of a musical experience involves sitting secluded in your dismal home and smugly reflecting on your superior understanding of Bach.
"The piece is only about the CHORALE." The arrogance consists in telling people who write their reactions to the music that they failed to "properly understand" it. He also acts as if an organ performance in the 20th century in a non-liturgical context can be treated as if it could "only be properly understood" in a context somewhat removed from the video, to which the comments refer. He also believes the music has a unique referent; e.g., "And it is certainly NOT the point of this music."
You write in circumlocutions to disguise that fact that you're clueless about the point of this piece.
According to Bach himself, the point of this and all the other organ chorale preludes in his "Little Organ Book" is to give "instruction to organists in developing a chorale in many divers ways, and at the same time in acquiring facility in the study of pedal since in the chorales contained herein the pedal is treated wholly obbligato...."
You miss the point that the comments here are about reactions to the piece, and don't pretend to identify its "point". The original purpose isn't what the comments are responding to--to suggest that they comments are misidentifying what you call the "point" of the piece is intellectually dishonest.
Don't you pretend that the composer's point in writing the piece was to provoke arbitrary reactions or invite private revelations about the meaning of the piece.
And don't you indulge in the intellectual dishonestly of pretending the point of this chorale prelude has nothing to do with the chorale and nothing to do with what Bach stated in his title page to the collection of 46 organ chorale preludes that includes this one.
Yes you are: you're missing gray matter. I'm not pretending that the composer's point was to "provoke arbitrary reactions." You're being silly. I made no pretense of the kind, but you are clueless and can not understand that, and you will never understand that. I point out that the comments have to do with expressions of private reactions to the piece. Whether these comport with the composer's intentions is another matter. As for the rest of your drivel, I suggest you learn to read.
Obviously "the comments have to do with expressions of private reactions to the piece." Why do you feel the need to point out the obvious?
All your tiresome circumlocutions are nothing more than a transparent attempt to try to make your trivial point --- that everyone is free to listen and react as he chooses --sound profound.
You're trying to turn a sow's ear into a gold purse.
In that case, you're a troll. My stronger point is that you have utterly failed to establish that knowledge of the composer's intentions determines musical perception. It may or may not influence it, but the processes involved are largely involuntary. Your tiresome harping on about the "point of the music" is an intellectually dishonest and desperate attempt to elevate the easily acquired knowledge of the historical context into a profound accomplishment that should somehow determine perception.
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I'm clearly not talking about mere knowledge of the role of organ chorale preludes in the Lutheran liturgy.
You have utterly failed to establish that knowledge of the composer's intention and the musical means by which he realizes that intention has no effect on a listener's appreciation of the music.
Your failure to admit that the point of a chorale prelude is the chorale is simply stupid.
You're not just intellectually dishonest. You're intellectually bankrupt.
"You have utterly failed to establish that knowledge of the composer's intention and the musical means by which he realizes that intention has no effect on a listener's appreciation of the music." Nor did I attempt to, as I allowed for the possibility that it could. See above. You are too dense to warrant further response. My condolences to your departed neurons.
Spare us your clueless misinterpretations. You cannot draw the inference that this was a "music for everyman" speech. Bach's intention is one thing; no one is arguing that. The comments refer to something other than Bach's original intention: they refer to the experience of listening to the music in the video. But you are too clueless to see that expressing aesthetic appreciation for the music is not incompatible with knowledge of the original didactic purpose of the music.
For a pedant who insists on having his statements quoted exactly (but denies their meaning in any case), you most emphatically do not extend that courtesy to others. Nowhere did I use the word "freedom" or speechify about the obvious: you hallucinated this. "Obviously "the comments refer to something other than Bach's original intention." That's what I took issue with." Because you have the insane belief that Bach's intention should determine musical perception, you took issue with them.
On the subject of the POINT of these "Little Organ Book" chorale preludes Bach concluded by writing:
"....In Praise of the Almighty's will
and for my neighbor's greater skill."
It is naive (and clueless) to react to this organ chorale prelude as though Bach woke up one day and said to himself, "I'm going to write an abstract mood piece about "sorrow" and name it [I call to thee, Lord Jesus Christ]."
All your replies to me have been laced with childish "ad hominem" remarks,
something I've avoided. So don't pretend I started it.
And don't use words you don't know the meaning of. I've done nothing more than provide information about the music. That is neither priggish nor proselytizing.
"Allow people..."? Please. Nothing anyone posts could possibly prevent anyone from doing anything.
You & flengyel are the only persons "on this discussion board insisting on being correct."
"...but that does not mean that we can not experience an emotional response."
That is merely YOUR point. But it is not THE point." And it is certainly NOT the point of this music.
Your point is trivial because it is OBVIOUS to everyone that anyone can listen to anything any which way he pleases.
But that is nothing more than a justification for being a clueless listener who reduces everything he hears to mood music and wouldn't know a chorale prelude if one bit him in the ass.
...and yes, you snob, I do know what a chorale prelude is. I do not think that "classical" music is merely "relaxing," but curmudgeons like you turn the Western musical tradition into a fossil. I am in my 20s, and I despair over how few people from my generation appreciate this kind of music on ANY level, let alone academic!
The heritage of Western music is preserved in libraries all over the world.
This chorale prelude, was not written for "everyman." It's part of a collection of organ chorale preludes for the church year. Bach said it's for organists wanting to learn to set chorales in diverse ways with obbligato pedal.
You cannot have "the Western musical tradition" you speak without also promoting an understanding the tradition, or rather, traditions, under which the music was created.
The term your looking for, professor, is "vacuously true". Not "vacuously trivial". But it doesn't apply.
Your *point* is trivial. Obviously everyone is free to listen to music any way he pleases and to react to it any way he pleases. We don't need a professor to tell us that.
Nevertheless, the point of an organ chorale prelude IS the chorale. That's why it's called a CHORALE PRELUDE.
But this is not an an abstract mood piece about sorrow.
If you know anything about organ chorale preludes, you'd know from the title alone that this must be a setting of the hymn tune "Ich ruf zu dir" which would be played before the congregation sings the hymn.
The congregation would immediately recognize the tune in the top voice of the prelude.
The hymn is not about sorrow, per say. It's about faith in Jesus, even in times of despair.
I really liked your video and your channel. If you need any help getting this video or channel exposed I use a site called tubeviews.(net) It has really helped like 20 of my main videos get to the top in position. God Bless!
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Christen sind die größten Heuchler. Ich vertraue keinem Christen mehr. Typische Eingenschaften eines Christen: - Vergewaltiger - Kinderschänder - Heuchlerisch - unfair - Lügen ohne rot zu werden - Seine schlechte Eingenschaften andere zuschreiben - Rassist - Besser Wisser - Er denkt er wäre der Beste - Stinker und säufer - Christliche Frauen sind einfach im Bett zu kriegen. Sie schlafen mit jedem. - etc...
Excellent. I was telling a friend about the movie Solaris, and I couldn't find the right words to explain the theme music. A short google search turned this up and I was very pleased.
Does anyone know of a recording of this piece arranged for chorus? I once had it and I can't find it anymore. If you know it, please let me know! I'm on a hunt!
I think it is so beautiful because it encompasses so much. Some people have said this is sad piece. I disagree, although sadness is in it to be sure. But this sadness is enclosed embraced and transcended, and transformed into a whole different state of consciousness. This is something very few works of (very good) art do.
The idea that the "only way to understand the piece is in the context of the words of the chorale" fails to account for its popularity, an empirical fact that has nothing to do with "romanticism", or any other excuse not to seriously consider empirical reasons why this piece has endured at all. Otherwise a single note could be written "about" the chorale, and would occupy the same place in the repertoire as Bach's arrangement, with the same or greater aesthetic impact.
I did NOT say "the only way to understand the piece is...".
I said, "The only way to properly understand the piece is..."
And you're confusing understanding with enjoying.
Obviously, even clueless people can enjoy Bach church pieces. This is apparent from the comments of people who seem to think this work is an abstract mood piece.
That depends what you mean by "understand." The original circumstances of composition and performance would inform musical and musicological analysis, but they do not determine any "point" or "referent" that the music could be said to be about. One could study the effect of the piece on humans without knowing those circumstances, and arrive at some understanding of the psychological effect without knowing the original history of composition and performance. The history may be irrelevant.
What you refuse to understand is that no one is claiming that individual perception determines the so-called "point" of the music. Conversely, musical perception is not a function of the composer's original intention, nor is it a function of knowledge of the composer's original intention. This is another matter you refuse to understand. You have failed to establish any relation whatsoever between knowledge of the composer's original intention and musical perception.
I made no claim that perception determines "the point" or that the composer's intention determines musical perception. Certainly being informed may influence perception or not--that depends. I think you're reading too much into what your "clueless listener" actually hears. They need not perceive it as a "mood piece" and they need not have a theory of what the piece is "about." They might simply experience sadness when they hear the piece. What must they experience?
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"Certainly being informed may influence perception." Yes, we appear to be in substantial agreement.
As I said, the clueless listener (speaking very generally) might hear it as a mood piece about sadness. Or he might simply think it's pretty.
There are different levels of music appreciation.
E.g. when playing English viol consort music, I've found that understanding the structure and gestures of the music and it's relation to Italian madrigals helps us get a better sound.
Perhaps what appeals to the clueless about this chorale prelude is the utter simplicity of the setting: a simple tune (not by Bach) in the right hand; a simple arpeggio accompaniment in the left hand; a simple, ostinato bass on the pedal; poignant harmonies. Kind of like an arrangement for piano of a slow pop song.
But this is only 1 organ choral prelude out of 46 that Bach included in his "Little Organ Book," and not the best in the set.
Forget all romantic notions about this piece. The piece is only about the CHORALE. These are the words of the CHORALE: "I call to you, Lord Jesus Christ, I pray, hear my lamentation, bestow your grace on me at this time, do not let me despair; I think that I have the right faith, Lord, which you wanted to give me, to live for you, to be useful to my neighbour, to keep your word properly."
The melody in the top is a slighltly ornamented version of the tune of the Lutheran hymn "Ich ruf' zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ". The congregation would have immediately recognized the tune and associated it with the words of the hymn
which they would sing afterwards.
Bach didn't write the melody or words of the hymn.
This piece is not about sadness or states of consiousness or any other romantic or new age drivel.
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shakhtar47 1 month ago
Moves my heart.
evaibohus 1 month ago
??? very bad! :(
picchio70rm 2 months ago
@picchio70rm NOT BAD!!!
Sanjasochi 1 month ago in playlist More videos from aarnouddegroen
Йоган,Андрей и Питер ...Вы смотрите на нас ?
shakhtar47 4 months ago
Prachtig gespeeld!
Een van mijn favorites van Bach op het orgel!
Wilde dat ik het zélf kon spelen op het orgel, als amateur-organiste...
gebruik (nog) geen pedalen nl.
luciesneep 6 months ago
По моему мнению из всех видео с органными произведениями Баха на You Tube лучшие - в исполнении Aarnoud de Groen.
SergeRogLeo 6 months ago 2
I prefer the piano version of Busoni
Ycc777 6 months ago
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Cassavius 10 months ago
Solaris m'a mené ici. Une pièce empreinte d'émotions comme il ne s'en fait plus de nos jours.
kelenor 11 months ago
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As used in SOLARIS this piece ruefully pointed out that communication and intervention between radically different species would most likely turn out tragically misguided. Bach's music suggests that mankind should seek existential solace from communication with a merciful deity. Might that also be misguided. Just a speculation!
dinnerpianist 1 year ago
As used in SOLARIS this piece ruefully pointed out that communication and intervention between radically different species would most likely turn out tragically misguided. Bach's music suggests that mankind should seek existential solace from communication with a merciful diety. Perhaps that may be also misguided. Just a speculation!
dinnerpianist 1 year ago
@dinnerpianist, let's forget aliens. What if Bach's music does offer not the existential solace but a bit of the truth which is unique, the same for each human being? I'm sure that any merciful diety bless listening 639 throughout the Earth.
cthtyflf 11 months ago
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dinnerpianist 1 year ago
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dinnerpianist 1 year ago
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dinnerpianist 1 year ago
Да, это на всю жизнь.
igberg 1 year ago
If you think tha bach is boring ou a estupid bastard... Play it and then speak
frexitus97 1 year ago
@frexitus97 If you think that somebody who thinks that Bach is boring is a stupid bastard, then you don't understand the meaning of Bach's music.
romm28 1 year ago
Solaris...
Loffyswe 1 year ago 2
Composed in the year 1713.
What have YOU done lately?
MamoDad 1 year ago
@MamoDad
Well, what have you done?
BELACSAMOHT 1 year ago
U moet een gelukkig man zijn dat u deze wondermooie muziek van zo een grootmeester zomaar uit het hoofd kan spelen. Proficiat, ik geniet mee met u!
Tsiniastje 1 year ago
@Tsiniastje
Inderdaad.
argumenteren 1 year ago
Kun päästiin tähän Bachin makuun: seuraava herkku tietenkin on tämä "Ich rufe" ... Nauttikaa!
wellpelko 1 year ago
Increíble...
Nipomix 1 year ago
to the Solaris people: it's Tarkovksy that used Bach to enhance his movie, not the other way around ;-)
phnaargos 1 year ago
what an amazing piece. What does the title mean? ("Ich ruf zu Dir, Herr Jesu Christ")
hellraidzor 1 year ago
@hellraidzor It means 'I call to Thee, Lord Jesus Christ'
Crystalvector2008 1 year ago
@Crystalvector2008 thanks
hellraidzor 1 year ago
@hellraidzor I call on Thee, Lord (Jesu(s) Christ)
QuoPacto 1 year ago
Yes, it sounds beautifully - and this very recording must have been used by Tarkovsky in "Solaris". Thank you!
letranger5 1 year ago
泣く。
MHK416P 1 year ago
Voglio dedicare questa musica alla povera Sarah Scazzi
gichinel 1 year ago
OH OH CHERSO!!!!
hermanshermits124124 1 year ago
Thank You, beautiful
bennypapd 1 year ago
I think this is probably the best performance of that piece I have ever heard. Well done.
123gwf 1 year ago 2
ihr mit eurem impotenten möchtegern befreier, unterdrücker der fleischlichen lust der schönsten lust von allen nmein herr satan wird euch alle zu sich holen XD JA!
666satansbrut666 1 year ago
Underlying accompaniment and pedal cannot be heard well. Cantus firmus overwhelms the overall effect.
revjmsmith 1 year ago
@revjmsmith
very valid comment - still I like that in this version the deceptively simple melody line gets emphasised. But you're right, you have to strain your ears to get the complementing effect of the other voices.
phnaargos 1 year ago
great!
Galkinart 1 year ago
Very Nice!
Ramsez 1 year ago
Prachtig!
(dank zij " het psalmenoproer" van Maarten 't Hart leren kennen)
luciesneep 1 year ago
Undoubtedly Bach,but registering sounds like a French organ,still beautifull performance
12345qazx1 1 year ago
Bach Bach Bach! To say "is the greatest" is like to say "the sky is blue"...
Sofoclaudio 1 year ago 10
@Sofoclaudio the sky is not always blue.
erghtrfgh 1 year ago
@erghtrfgh boring...
Sofoclaudio 1 year ago
@Sofoclaudio but still true.
erghtrfgh 1 year ago
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@erghtrfgh Do you know the truth? You are really lucky!
Sofoclaudio 1 year ago
your performing is really great. everyytimes as i need this this music i hear your performance. thank you!
klmnplk 1 year ago
Kocham ten kawałek. A najbardziej jego wersję z filmu Lourdes. Rozkłada mnie w pozytywnym sensie. Zastygam w metafizyce. M.
Magdalenna1 1 year ago
Memoirs... Grief.... Melancholy.... The past.... The past.... Here all in one bottle. Here a essence....
andrewssmedia 1 year ago
it sounds French romantic period,nevertheless nice!!
12345qazx1 1 year ago
Lovely.
Nice view.
Wish we could occasionally see the whole instrument.
robertgift 1 year ago
Beautiful piece, beautifully played.
This was not just on Solaris, but was also in "The New Exhibit" episode of The Twilight Zone.
EvilTube2007 1 year ago
Wow. Movingly played. This piece sounds a bit like something Erik Satie would have written.
Cedarosaurus 1 year ago
@Cedarosaurus
If that was the case, he would have copied the master. But don't mention the insignificant Satie here, I beg you
silverbud 1 year ago
If you love this piece, then you must taste Cesar Franck's "Prelude, fugue, and variations". It's available at "pbenedicto28" (excellent organ version!)
cthtyflf 1 year ago
I love this piece. As you may know, Tarkovsky used it in the beginning of Solaris.
GoblinGirl 1 year ago 7
@GoblinGirl In the beginning and throughout the movie. The most striking usage of the melody however is in a scene shortly before the ending (where they start floating) and during the absolutely mind-blowing ending.
A true masterpiece, both the movie and this song, along with this interpretation.
nuckable 2 weeks ago
Excellent!!!!
I listened to this several times in a row.
Even on Youtube through my computer audio setup, the power of this music and organ come through.
Greg0ire2002 1 year ago
I listened to this 5 times in a row!!!
Unbelievable and excellent!
Thank you for posting it.
Greg0ire2002 1 year ago
Meraviglia!
gichinel 2 years ago
it opens the doors to superior levels
hotello2009 2 years ago 3
Bravo!
Gavrochek 2 years ago
Amazing !!!
clauswerker 2 years ago
GREAT
tbabysus 2 years ago
wow... so he does do it by memory! That is incredible! I don't think ive ever seen a paper on that organ! Just amazing!.... btw, great work :)
bobmusick 2 years ago
@bobmusick Yeah, he's great, i am currentley trying to master this piece for piano and accordion. The actual piece is about 4-5 sheets of notes.
RacoonHat 2 years ago
oh, very nice! make sure to put that on here, would definitely want to see that!
bobmusick 2 years ago
Yeah, i dont believe, well to my knowledge, that Ich ruf zu dir herr jesu christ was ever attempted on accordion, well atleats in the youtube community. I will try to put it up if i master it.
RacoonHat 2 years ago
I'd love to hear that.
I think Youtube community should expand its ranks and record all Bach's organ pieces on piano (BWV 543), orchestra (like BWV 582, 578) and accordion (BWV 542).
kknots 1 year ago
Bach and after?
AGLMIL 2 years ago
Very well played! 5 stars.
pieroLT 2 years ago
So much Beaty...
darthjc1965917 2 years ago
¡Qué grande Bach! esta obra la escuché en la película de Andrei Tarkovsky : Solaris (lenta pero hace pensar). Cultura a través del cine: ¡Bravo!
balaguerdoctor 2 years ago 18
Así la conocí yo también. Se unen las dos impresiones: la de la película, tan irreal y misteriosa y la de la música propiamente dicha. Entro en trance al escucharla.
Javandy 2 years ago
I heard this in the film "Solaris".
manco82 2 years ago 4
How much beaty from 0:24 to 0:38.
madhda 2 years ago 2
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madhda 2 years ago
Da, očeň prekrasnoje.
MrRUDOLF74 2 years ago
this music is also used in "assa", if you remember
uropepyaka 2 years ago
Прекрасный!
diekunstderfuge1749 2 years ago
Nice playing, but a bit fast. I enjoyed the pace on the young man playing the Baldwin 45H2.
jjas20091 2 years ago
Solaris:)
Quex01 2 years ago 68
@Quex01 A thousand times, yes!
senatorexlax 1 year ago
@Quex01 YEEEEEEEEEEES :)))))))))))
bachsuonalcitofono 1 year ago
Too fast! It's a "De Profundis"!!!
Good execution, but too fast!
DeusMisereremei 2 years ago
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ik7dtd 1 year ago
Je suis en train d'étudier ce morceau. Je trouve l'interprétation et la registration magnifiques...
Bravo
ehnapets 2 years ago 3
Splendid!
kozgun 2 years ago 4
гениальная музыка и очень красивый звук у органа!!!
anatoliyyy 2 years ago 4
я соглашаюсь
FreddieSausage 2 years ago 4
this was written the night after bach's wife died and lipatti was terminal with leukaemia when he played it. people, if you don't feel suicidal while hearing this, you've got no heart... ;)
marcdunord 2 years ago
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wcbroccoli 2 years ago
Lipatti died of Hodgkin's, not leukemia.
There's no evidence this piece is connected with any death. Bach was out of town when his wife died; he didn't return until she was already buried.
This is is one of 46 organ chorale preludes Bach assembled for the stated purpose of instructing beginning organists in setting chorales in diverse ways with obbligato pedal.
"if you don't feel suicidal..."? marcdunord ends his silly remarks with a wink.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Yep... definitely a prig.
FreddieSausage 2 years ago
Did you learn a knew word?
Or do you just a big thrill out of calling someone a "prig"?
vdgplayer 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
A "knew" word ??
"Or do you just a big thrill" ??!!!
What an un-knew-sual way of writing !
FreddieSausage 2 years ago
You took the bait, fool.
Only a "prig" would call attention to typos in an internet forum.
vdgplayer 2 years ago
LOL
Good one, vdgplayer.
You punked him good.
jschubart 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Actually...I double punked YOU with a Super-Duper Typo-Ironical Double-Bluff. Prig/Prick.....interchangeable, no ???
Freddie Fool
xx
FreddieSausage 2 years ago
BA-HA-HA-HA-HA!
JupiterIV 2 years ago
I'm on your side dude, your right.
RacoonHat 2 years ago
wcbroccoli, I think you miss the point. Yes, Bach composed this piece for a specific purpose, but that does not mean that we can not experience an emotional response. What a dull and impoverished musical life it would be to respond to music at an intellectual level only.
Furthermore, how can you deny the sorrowful nature of the piece. "Ich ruf zu dir" means "I call to thee." Even the words express desperation and the hope of consolation through Christ. Bach is over your head.
boringalias 2 years ago 2
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wcbroccoli 2 years ago
Well, what do you think the psalm is about? Rejoicing for one's sorrow? Define lamentation and despair for me, then. The psalm calls for strength through Christ in a time of doubt or troubles. Are you a Biblical scholar? Do you read Hebrew? Do you claim to know absolute truths concerning scripture and Bach?
boringalias 2 years ago
You're very confused about many things.
The chorale prelude is not an abstract mood piece about sadness or sorrow.
The chorale text is in German, not Hebrew.
That text appears to be inspired by pentitential psalms, but it is not a psalm.
The chorale is not about sorrow. It's about faith in Jesus Christ in times of sorrow.
No psalm "calls for strength through Christ ". The psalms are Old Testament. "Christ" is New Testament.
Evidently I know more than you.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
Thanks for Bible 101. I know that the Psalms are Old Testament, but the chorale refers to "Herr Jesu Christ."
No psalm explicitly addresses Christ, I know - duh. Most of the New Testament is a Christian interpretation of the Old Testament.
I asked if you knew Hebrew because you write with assumed authority to the point of arrogance.
I imagine your idea of a musical experience involves sitting secluded in your dismal home and smugly reflecting on your superior understanding of Bach.
boringalias 2 years ago
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flengyel 2 years ago
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flengyel 2 years ago
"The piece is only about the CHORALE." The arrogance consists in telling people who write their reactions to the music that they failed to "properly understand" it. He also acts as if an organ performance in the 20th century in a non-liturgical context can be treated as if it could "only be properly understood" in a context somewhat removed from the video, to which the comments refer. He also believes the music has a unique referent; e.g., "And it is certainly NOT the point of this music."
flengyel 2 years ago
Spare us your "music for everyman" speeches.
You write in circumlocutions to disguise that fact that you're clueless about the point of this piece.
According to Bach himself, the point of this and all the other organ chorale preludes in his "Little Organ Book" is to give "instruction to organists in developing a chorale in many divers ways, and at the same time in acquiring facility in the study of pedal since in the chorales contained herein the pedal is treated wholly obbligato...."
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
You miss the point that the comments here are about reactions to the piece, and don't pretend to identify its "point". The original purpose isn't what the comments are responding to--to suggest that they comments are misidentifying what you call the "point" of the piece is intellectually dishonest.
flengyel 2 years ago
I'm not missing anything.
Don't you pretend that the composer's point in writing the piece was to provoke arbitrary reactions or invite private revelations about the meaning of the piece.
And don't you indulge in the intellectual dishonestly of pretending the point of this chorale prelude has nothing to do with the chorale and nothing to do with what Bach stated in his title page to the collection of 46 organ chorale preludes that includes this one.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
Yes you are: you're missing gray matter. I'm not pretending that the composer's point was to "provoke arbitrary reactions." You're being silly. I made no pretense of the kind, but you are clueless and can not understand that, and you will never understand that. I point out that the comments have to do with expressions of private reactions to the piece. Whether these comport with the composer's intentions is another matter. As for the rest of your drivel, I suggest you learn to read.
flengyel 2 years ago
Obviously "the comments have to do with expressions of private reactions to the piece." Why do you feel the need to point out the obvious?
All your tiresome circumlocutions are nothing more than a transparent attempt to try to make your trivial point --- that everyone is free to listen and react as he chooses --sound profound.
You're trying to turn a sow's ear into a gold purse.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
In that case, you're a troll. My stronger point is that you have utterly failed to establish that knowledge of the composer's intentions determines musical perception. It may or may not influence it, but the processes involved are largely involuntary. Your tiresome harping on about the "point of the music" is an intellectually dishonest and desperate attempt to elevate the easily acquired knowledge of the historical context into a profound accomplishment that should somehow determine perception.
flengyel 2 years ago
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I'm clearly not talking about mere knowledge of the role of organ chorale preludes in the Lutheran liturgy.
You have utterly failed to establish that knowledge of the composer's intention and the musical means by which he realizes that intention has no effect on a listener's appreciation of the music.
Your failure to admit that the point of a chorale prelude is the chorale is simply stupid.
You're not just intellectually dishonest. You're intellectually bankrupt.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
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flengyel 2 years ago
"You have utterly failed to establish that knowledge of the composer's intention and the musical means by which he realizes that intention has no effect on a listener's appreciation of the music." Nor did I attempt to, as I allowed for the possibility that it could. See above. You are too dense to warrant further response. My condolences to your departed neurons.
flengyel 2 years ago
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Talk about sore losers.
After much protest, you finally concede the point I've been making all along, but instead of exiting gracefully, you insult me.
If you think you can snatch victory from defeat by insulting me, think again.
Since you've conceded the point, there's really nothing more for you to say, is there.
But we all know you'll be back to get your licks in.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
Spare us your clueless misinterpretations. You cannot draw the inference that this was a "music for everyman" speech. Bach's intention is one thing; no one is arguing that. The comments refer to something other than Bach's original intention: they refer to the experience of listening to the music in the video. But you are too clueless to see that expressing aesthetic appreciation for the music is not incompatible with knowledge of the original didactic purpose of the music.
flengyel 2 years ago
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There's no possibility of misinterpretation because you merely state amd restate the obvious ad nauseam.
Spare us your "music for everyman" speeches about the freedom of every man to listen and react as he chooses.
No one is denying that freedom.
Obviously "the comments refer to something other than Bach's original intention." That's what I took issue with.
You cluelessly state the obvious as though you think you're revealing hidden truths.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
For a pedant who insists on having his statements quoted exactly (but denies their meaning in any case), you most emphatically do not extend that courtesy to others. Nowhere did I use the word "freedom" or speechify about the obvious: you hallucinated this. "Obviously "the comments refer to something other than Bach's original intention." That's what I took issue with." Because you have the insane belief that Bach's intention should determine musical perception, you took issue with them.
flengyel 2 years ago
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I don't insist on having my statements quoted exactly. But I do insist you at least paraphrase accurately, which you didn't.
I didn't quote you. I paraphrased what you advocate: Freedom of everyone to listen and react cluelessly.
If you insanely insist that the composer's intention is irelevant, then there's no reasoning with you.
The point of a chorale prelude IS the chorale. It you can't grasp that, then I can't help you.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
On the subject of the POINT of these "Little Organ Book" chorale preludes Bach concluded by writing:
"....In Praise of the Almighty's will
and for my neighbor's greater skill."
It is naive (and clueless) to react to this organ chorale prelude as though Bach woke up one day and said to himself, "I'm going to write an abstract mood piece about "sorrow" and name it [I call to thee, Lord Jesus Christ]."
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
You asked if I knew Hebrew because you're a 26-year old with the maturity of a 6th grader.
And you're as clueless about my living circumstances as you are about this music.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
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boringalias 2 years ago
All your replies to me have been laced with childish "ad hominem" remarks,
something I've avoided. So don't pretend I started it.
And don't use words you don't know the meaning of. I've done nothing more than provide information about the music. That is neither priggish nor proselytizing.
"Allow people..."? Please. Nothing anyone posts could possibly prevent anyone from doing anything.
You & flengyel are the only persons "on this discussion board insisting on being correct."
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
"...but that does not mean that we can not experience an emotional response."
That is merely YOUR point. But it is not THE point." And it is certainly NOT the point of this music.
Your point is trivial because it is OBVIOUS to everyone that anyone can listen to anything any which way he pleases.
But that is nothing more than a justification for being a clueless listener who reduces everything he hears to mood music and wouldn't know a chorale prelude if one bit him in the ass.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
Well, you clearly are not a fan of Virgil Fox.
...and yes, you snob, I do know what a chorale prelude is. I do not think that "classical" music is merely "relaxing," but curmudgeons like you turn the Western musical tradition into a fossil. I am in my 20s, and I despair over how few people from my generation appreciate this kind of music on ANY level, let alone academic!
boringalias 2 years ago
The heritage of Western music is preserved in libraries all over the world.
This chorale prelude, was not written for "everyman." It's part of a collection of organ chorale preludes for the church year. Bach said it's for organists wanting to learn to set chorales in diverse ways with obbligato pedal.
You cannot have "the Western musical tradition" you speak without also promoting an understanding the tradition, or rather, traditions, under which the music was created.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
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flengyel 2 years ago
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flengyel 2 years ago
The term your looking for, professor, is "vacuously true". Not "vacuously trivial". But it doesn't apply.
Your *point* is trivial. Obviously everyone is free to listen to music any way he pleases and to react to it any way he pleases. We don't need a professor to tell us that.
Nevertheless, the point of an organ chorale prelude IS the chorale. That's why it's called a CHORALE PRELUDE.
Singers? Professor, really.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
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flengyel 2 years ago
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flengyel 2 years ago
I don't deny how you might perceive it.
But this is not an an abstract mood piece about sorrow.
If you know anything about organ chorale preludes, you'd know from the title alone that this must be a setting of the hymn tune "Ich ruf zu dir" which would be played before the congregation sings the hymn.
The congregation would immediately recognize the tune in the top voice of the prelude.
The hymn is not about sorrow, per say. It's about faith in Jesus, even in times of despair.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
RE: Nature of piece.
Poignant harmonies, including some dissonances created by slow changing bass notes, fit the lamentation: "I call to you, Lord Jesus Christ,
I pray, hear my lamentation,
bestow your grace on me at this time,
do not let me despair;"
But the calm arpeggios and persistent bass line symbolize steadfast faith: "I think that I have the right faith, Lord,
which you wanted to give me,
to live for you,
to be useful to my neighbour,
to keep your word properly."
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
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Charlotteqza 2 years ago
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ChristenLeben 2 years ago
Das ist einfach unfassbar, wie schön diese Musik ist. Ich vergötte J.S.Bach...
Hippusha 2 years ago
I remember this from the film Solyaris and it blew me away.
jonthegoon 3 years ago 3
I come right from finishing Solyaris. This is insanely beautiful.
sosiopat 3 years ago 4
Excellent. I was telling a friend about the movie Solaris, and I couldn't find the right words to explain the theme music. A short google search turned this up and I was very pleased.
senatorexlax 3 years ago
its so hard to hear more than two parts at a time.
rojo836 3 years ago
Does anyone know of a recording of this piece arranged for chorus? I once had it and I can't find it anymore. If you know it, please let me know! I'm on a hunt!
aPastaSea 3 years ago
Le soprano manque de couleur, non ?
Organiste06 3 years ago
Why is this peice so beautiful? The melody reaches down to the very marrow of my bones...
herakles120 3 years ago 8
I don't know, but I feel the same, my fellow Human Being!
amper0003 3 years ago 2
I think it is so beautiful because it encompasses so much. Some people have said this is sad piece. I disagree, although sadness is in it to be sure. But this sadness is enclosed embraced and transcended, and transformed into a whole different state of consciousness. This is something very few works of (very good) art do.
exoplanet11 3 years ago 3
This is NOT a mood piece.
It not written to inspire dreamy-eyed Romantic reflections.
Nor is it abstract music.
It is FUNCTIONAL MUSIC.
It's a CHORALE PRELUDE on the CHORALE "Ich ruf' zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ."
A CHORALE PRELUDE would be played before the congregation sings the CHORALE "Ich ruf' zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ".
That's why it's called a CHORALE PRELUDE.
The only way to properly understand the piece is in the context of the words of the chorale itself.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
The idea that the "only way to understand the piece is in the context of the words of the chorale" fails to account for its popularity, an empirical fact that has nothing to do with "romanticism", or any other excuse not to seriously consider empirical reasons why this piece has endured at all. Otherwise a single note could be written "about" the chorale, and would occupy the same place in the repertoire as Bach's arrangement, with the same or greater aesthetic impact.
flengyel 2 years ago
That is YOUR idea. Not mine.
You are misquoting me.
I did NOT say "the only way to understand the piece is...".
I said, "The only way to properly understand the piece is..."
And you're confusing understanding with enjoying.
Obviously, even clueless people can enjoy Bach church pieces. This is apparent from the comments of people who seem to think this work is an abstract mood piece.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
That depends what you mean by "understand." The original circumstances of composition and performance would inform musical and musicological analysis, but they do not determine any "point" or "referent" that the music could be said to be about. One could study the effect of the piece on humans without knowing those circumstances, and arrive at some understanding of the psychological effect without knowing the original history of composition and performance. The history may be irrelevant.
flengyel 2 years ago
Obviously one can listen to early music without a clue or a care for the historical context.
History is irrelevant to the listener who chooses to remain ignorant.
But how he perceives or reacts to the music does not determine the "point" of the music. The "point" is what history, not the listener, says it is.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
What you refuse to understand is that no one is claiming that individual perception determines the so-called "point" of the music. Conversely, musical perception is not a function of the composer's original intention, nor is it a function of knowledge of the composer's original intention. This is another matter you refuse to understand. You have failed to establish any relation whatsoever between knowledge of the composer's original intention and musical perception.
flengyel 2 years ago
What you refuse to admit is that you've been claiming all along that individual perception determines the "point" of the music.
What you fail to grasp is that there is a relation between the composer's intention and appreciating the music.
E.g., I relate the musical symbolism to the affect of the words of the cantus firmus.
The music is about the chorale (the point).
The clueless listener will hear it as a mood piece about sadness. Or maybe he'll just think it sounds pretty.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
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flengyel 2 years ago
I made no claim that perception determines "the point" or that the composer's intention determines musical perception. Certainly being informed may influence perception or not--that depends. I think you're reading too much into what your "clueless listener" actually hears. They need not perceive it as a "mood piece" and they need not have a theory of what the piece is "about." They might simply experience sadness when they hear the piece. What must they experience?
flengyel 2 years ago
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"Certainly being informed may influence perception." Yes, we appear to be in substantial agreement.
As I said, the clueless listener (speaking very generally) might hear it as a mood piece about sadness. Or he might simply think it's pretty.
There are different levels of music appreciation.
E.g. when playing English viol consort music, I've found that understanding the structure and gestures of the music and it's relation to Italian madrigals helps us get a better sound.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
Perhaps what appeals to the clueless about this chorale prelude is the utter simplicity of the setting: a simple tune (not by Bach) in the right hand; a simple arpeggio accompaniment in the left hand; a simple, ostinato bass on the pedal; poignant harmonies. Kind of like an arrangement for piano of a slow pop song.
But this is only 1 organ choral prelude out of 46 that Bach included in his "Little Organ Book," and not the best in the set.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
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flengyel 2 years ago
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flengyel 2 years ago
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
The melody in the top is a slighltly ornamented version of the tune of the Lutheran hymn "Ich ruf' zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ". The congregation would have immediately recognized the tune and associated it with the words of the hymn
which they would sing afterwards.
Bach didn't write the melody or words of the hymn.
This piece is not about sadness or states of consiousness or any other romantic or new age drivel.
This piece is about the words of the hymn.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
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flengyel 2 years ago
Thumbs down for stating the facts?
Evidently some people prefer romantic illusions to facts.
wcbroccoli 2 years ago
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flengyel 2 years ago