Well, according to Michael Hoffman, you can tell by taking effective amounts of entheogens. We're talking Terence McKenna-recommended doses of something like psilocybin, for instance. What happens at the height of that experience, according to Hoffman, is incontrovertible evidence for "hard determinism" which he expounds all quite thoroughly at this website at vvvvvv.egodeath.com! If you're interested, it's definitely worth checking out or YT search Ramesh Balsekar!
I'm, actually, quite amazed that you postulate the belief that there is no such thing as freewill when no one and no thing forced you or coerced you into making this vid-clip presentation. What occured is that you made the cognitive choice to make this presentation. By your own action, you have established the case for freewill...
@mdlittle5466 Really? But where did my actions come from? Where did my decisions come from? If this world is entirely material, is free will not an illusion brought about by complicated electro-chemical processes, an emergent quality of purely material--and hence, deterministic--physical components of this universe?
@BionicDance Perhaps, but that would allude to your being coerced in some form and/or fashion to produce this vid-clip. Now ask yourself, honestly, what could have been your compulsion to do so?...now if you were paid or offered some sort of reward, then it would be understandable - but if you were not, then why did you make it? I know why I watched it...because I made a cognitive choice to watch even though there was nothing to be gained physically by doing so...and that's entirely factual.
@mdlittle5466 No, that doesn't say ANYTHING about being coerced. It just means that producing this video clip was an emergent property of the physical structure of my brain and the stimuli it was subjected to by the universe.
@BionicDance Alright, before we proceed...I'll have you know that I am familiar with stimuli, subject matter utilized to incur a reaction from the target in question. If you were subjected to stimuli, then you were...in some form and fashion incured to react in some form and fashion to make this video. So, now that we've established a mutual understanding - what was the stimuli that incured you to create this video?...in short, in a 'physically-deterministic world' - what coerced you?
@mdlittle5466 Oh, come now; you HAVE to know that's an impossible question to answer. If you understand how the brain works AT ALL, you have to know it was not one single stimulus, nor would it necessarily be something immediately identified. Furthermore, this video was made SEVEN MONTHS AGO, so memory will have faded as it is.
This is not a question subject to answer, not with today's technology, not without having recorded months--perhaps even YEARS--of stimulus...it just can't be done!
@BionicDance If it is an impossible question to answer, they you cannot even say for certain that your initial postulation is accurate or even valid. Perhaps, most likely, all that occured was that you simply arrived, in your mind, a query and elected (...if naught but for yourself...) to create this video? Nothing coerced you (...unless you're lying...) and you simply had the time and the will to do so...they call that 'freewill'.
@mdlittle5466 But I'm NOT saying for certain; at no point in this entire discussion have I claimed to be saying for certain. I'm speculating.
But I have to ask you...if it occurred in my mind, HOW did it occur? WHY did it occur? What MADE it occur? Hmm?
And I also never said ANYTHING about being coerced. I think you don't actually understand the subject matter, frankly; you seem to have some very strange notions of what I'm talking about that don't match reality.
@BionicDance Hmmm...now that's a valid query - how, in a 'physical-deterministic world' (...as you ascribe in your vid-clip...) can a brain comprised of bio-chemical reactions establish independent thought when thought, apparently, is derived from a physical manifestation - our brain. Fortunately neuroscientists have discovered that our thoughts are not entirely bound by the wirings of our neurons and dendrons. In truth, just by thinking about it...we can 'rewire' our own brains. Interesting...
@mdlittle5466 And yet, that we CAN 'rewire' our brains still does not mean we are exerting free will to do so; that we've done so could STILL be a product of determinism.
My question to you is: how do we tell which it is?
@BionicDance That's dualistic thinking and disengenuous...neither worth appending regarding the current subject matter. It is clear that thought processes require the brain to be established - damage the brain, damage the thought process. However, individuals have be able to recover from head trauma with substantial portions of thier brain extracted, but still function as if nothing had been removed. There is, to some degree, determinism...but there is also freewill - case in point: suicide.
@BionicDance Intriguing...coersion to self-terminate due to external physical stimuli. While I'll refrain from obvious examples such as torture and willful neglect...what, in a 'physically-determistic world' could sponsor the desire to self-terminate?...because if you can come up with the answer to that, then you clearly have missed your calling and should be a counselor. Alas, the causes for suicide are as varied as the means to commit said act...you postulate generalization and that's invalid.
@mdlittle5466 Who says the desire to self-terminate is a PLANNED thing? All it takes is the right--or wrong--stimuli; it has nothing to do with what "should" be. In a deterministic universe, "should" doesn't even exist!
I'm sorry, but you're simply not properly looking at how a deterministic universe would function; you keep imposing values upon it that would not exist if it were the case.
@BionicDance My dear, naive and ever-so-egotistical young lady. I will be mindful to toss a tulip upon your grave when you, inadvertently, stumble across your 'kamakazi killswitch'.
ok .. so because quantum physics proves randomness exist that means that everything is random ... everything that happened and will happen is purely random ... and we have to make decissions in random situations.. so that's who we are creatures that make decisions based on the curent situation wich is random ... => free will ... cause we decide what we do in that UNIQUE situation .. that is purely inpredictable even if it seems likely you never know for sure what will happen..
if our will was free, then everyone would be equally influenced one way or the other. that's obviously not the case..our choices usually depend on the culmination of whatever thoughts happen to pop into our heads..if u end up choosing to order the steak instead of the lobster, what was in charge of that choice? the thoughts that happened to culminate into leading to that choice were in charge..do we have the free will to control our thoughts from moment to moment? no. they "spring from the void"
Heh, I had a vid on the same subject, and came to the same "how could we even know anyway?" conclusion. We're just a point in a timeline either way, so whether it actually exists or is just a persistent illusion feels like a non-issue.
I think that at quantum scale there are true random events. Macroscopical objects behave in sort of statistical mean value way. If this is the case then future events can not be predicted with arbitrary precision by calculations, any single event may lead to many different outcomes. It is not just human inability, it is property of nature. Hence, free will.
@z3my4l It APPEARS that there are random events at the quantum level...but it may also be our inability to detect the cause of those events with our present level of scientific understanding.
@BionicDance determinism and free will R not exactly opposites. I think a deterministic universe would make free will impossible. quantum randomness might allow an opening for a god to alter the path of a particle in a way science would be unable to detect, but this quantum randomness even if real, wouldn't make free will a necessity. the important question related to free will is about responsibility. if we have no free will, why reward/punish good/bad behavior. please help save planet from AGW
@z3my4l That conclusion is not logical. Many different outcomes, yes, but the outcome that does result is not a result of a "choice". Saying that fufture events cannot be predicted with arbitrary precision does not imply free will. In fact I'd say that it speaks *against* free will even more; that our choices are not only inescapable conclusions given the circumstances, but even worse, the results of probability. Still no third person agent that "does the willing".
@gratex Actualy it can your brain has to refrence things in order to create a world.Youd have needed to see it at one point and then it could be a figment of your imagination.
Also theres an issue with contact.How are we able to learn without having anything really infront of us to contact or dissect?solipsism has two major flaws which make it fallible.1 is contact.the senses are there to contact something.and the fact that we can proves that theres an object there.the 2nd is death.How do die?
@TheKatsuTsuki your brain creates that world,which is the premise of solipsism... your brain creates dreams, schizophrenics "contact" their hallucinations. You may say that those dreams are reflections of external objects in an objective universe and I'd agree, but the argument is that they are figments of an imagination, which implies that what we call consciousness is also an illusion of that/my/your brain.
@gratex if all was an illusion contact with other objects would be impossible and death itself would seem an impossible feat.and the likeliness of everythng being an illusion is ridiculous even on theoretical standards.
Theres no reason to believe illusions can fully take over your senses.nor make can an imagination make you die.
@TheKatsuTsuki yes, but you can't verify the accuracy of your senses using information gained via your senses, and since there's no other method of gathering data one must accept that belief in an objective universe is a leap of faith.
@gratex actualy I think you can.Senses serve only one purpose and thats to find an object.The object may or may not be sensed by all your senses but if you bump into a wall you cant see then the wall is still there.the fact is that a solipsist life would have to come after the real thing.your imagination cannot create something from nothing so the information would have to come from some where.This would suggest that there is atleast one realittalso the concept of reality itself is quite vague
@TheKatsuTsuki a wall is a wall because the brain defined it as such, you can't walk through something that's defined as a wall because you've defined it to be impenetrable. "your imagination" is just one other thing that could be part of the illusion. It's an entirely feasible model of an immaterial universe that's just has valid as a material model. As I said it's a leap of faith either way.
@TheKatsuTsuki as far as birth/death is concerned, if such a model was true you'd find that your existence is eternity. you won't know death other than a fantasy that is created by yourself.
@gratex Reality is just a physical plain which means if the fantasy can act as such then it is reality.an illusion woulndt be able to do anything to you and any reaction would be a mental trick.one you could track and very well prove is an illusion.Imagine a virtual reality where everything in it works just as physically as you perceive it.Ie you get cut it hurts you bleed.then that too would be reality not an illusion.illusions are easy to track and have limits.reality has cause and effect.
I enjoyed this more than anything I've seen in a while. And that was before the closing line, the bit about ignorance killing the cat, which was absolutely fucking BRILLIANT. I'm totally swiping that and using it in conversation with non-YouTube folks, so I can seem more clever than I am.
We don't choose our will, we can just choose to act on it. I can't control what I desire. I find it hard to believe we live in a predetermined universe where my particles can, though highly unlikely, act as a wave and appear else where. Not to mention kids being hit by drunk drivers, random earthquakes killing 1000s+, some idiot raping a defenseless woman, a little child being hit by a stray bullet. How deluded does one have to be to believe that there's a 'reason' for that? The fuck?
Call someone stupid because she doesn't agree with you is a sign of immaturity. I get her point that she doesn't believe there is a hand guiding what is going on due to her arguement of free will. I understand her reasoning but I disagree with her. Even though I don't agree with her, I don't think it is right for individuals to attack her personally instead of having an intellectual debate.
They're saying that it's a better thing for a woman to be raped than not to be raped.
They're saying people being born with trisomy 18 is better than people not being born with trisomy 18. (fatal genetic disorder, they live in agony for a little while and then die)
Unless they're not saying that it's a predetermined by a concious entity and that it's good, and are merely stating the obvious, in which case they're probably the kind of simpleton who also says things like "water is wet".
A while back I read something about the philosophy concerning free will. That is, it's pretty much proven as fact that we make decisions unconsciously, well before we are aware of it consciously. This gives a bit of a problem, because it removes legal liability.
What this one thing proposed, is that we're veto'ing these made choices consciously, thus still keeping legal liability. Maybe I can find the video where it came up.. Was interesting to listen to, eventho I'm not really into philosophy
@Shangori Here'z the thing, though...if choices are made unconsciously, and if laws are choices, then making the laws is no more an act of conscious will than what the law addresses. It all works out in the end.
@BionicDance unconscious decisions are a lovely mix of basic wants and needs and emotional adeptness.Emotions help us make decisions tat our more logical wants and needs find hard to make.
for instance its much easier to make a decision on two identical couches once you sit in them and you like one.its just info you cant track easily not info with an intent.Philosophy cant answer anything it only asks questions.to answer this truly wed have to have a better understanding of where we are.
@Shangori "This gives a bit of a problem, because it removes legal liability."
It really doesn't. What causes our legal system to go into exceptional processing mode is not that people don't consciously make decisions, but rather that people are sometimes so fucked up mentally that insane asylums are more appropriate than jail(for example, there are many different situations where our judgment changes). No aspect of our legal system is affected by our decision making process being automatic.
@Shangori In fact, it's pretty much a contradiction to assume that one's decisions aren't automatic, because to call something "Your choice" means that the choice was restricted by your nature, desires, motives etc. Whether or not you have a conscious experience really is irrelevant to bystanders anyway. We have no way of knowing if you have such experiences or not. We react to what you do and our appreciation of the situation.
@Shangori - It was SisyphusRedeemed - I believe it was discussing how free will/predetermination was not a particularly useful thing to argue about, and we should move beyond those terms. That the one you were talking about?
@Shangori "Justice" is a reaction to an action just like any other action thus being dependent on actions like the actions that caused this action called justice :).
I say things like...it will all work out ect.....Though in my side thoughts I know I have to be the one to make sure it happens (This is just my way of stepping back from an overwhelming situation and giving myself time to breath.)
So its not that I disagree with you its just that there are a lot of unknown factors in your comment and I am attempting to close what I see as one of the gaps in your logic:)
I hate the term free will: either you're following conscious or unconscious rules in your read or your putting random input into your decision mix. Any way you cut it your decisions aren't truly free. Autonomous will is my preferred terminology as it captures the fact you 'made' the choice autonomously (without external pressures), rather than 'freely'.
@BionicDance In all honesty though, I think it's better to have 10,000 quality subs than 130,000 subs, a fair chunk of which may be questionable. Tf00t used to be great, but damn, I can't deny it anymore, the guy is getting to the point of flat out suckage. He's really lost his way... gotten ridiculously hung up on the Islam issue, the youtube drama with Coughlan (I'm disappointed in both of them for that bs). In any case, don't change your style/ways - they are MUCH more interesting than new TF
@pumarunner88 I agree with what you say about Tf00t, and I've unsubbed from him quite recently--less than a week ago--because of his getting hung up on Islam. What is it about British people and getting hung up on Islam, anyway...? I mean, first there was victimlesscriminal, then Pat Condell, now Tf00t...it's like coughlan is the exception that points out the rule.
I miss the old Tf00t, the one who debunk religious claims with science.
@BionicDance Ah, yeah, right. For some reason he gives off a British vibe. To me, at least. Maybe it's the under-spoken intellectualismness that I racistly ascribe to the brits.
@BionicDance "What is it about British people and getting hung up on Islam, anyway...?"
Not up to speed on the development of Eurabia? =) Merkel, Cameron and Sarkozy have all gone public declaring multiculturalism a failure. If you live in the US you may possibly not have a proper appreciation of the kind of appeasement policy that's been going around in Europe for far too long. Basically it's all about saying that enough is enough.
@BionicDance I suppose you might also have difficulty appreciating exactly how secular Europe is if you live in the US. Europeans had essentially forgotten that there were people taking religion seriously and have just recently woken up to the fact that they've imported millions of delusional cultists who are happy to see western values such as freedom of speech, democracy and modern science burn in favor of bronze age myth.
It's still a tossup if we'll be fighting civil wars about that.
@pumarunner88 I have to agree on the bickering between coughlan and tf really two grown men in their thirties acting like this. Its not about the video content its about ego and personalities who both dislike each other and both have a court filled with fools happy to sqabble back and fourth. Its damaged athiesm I've had enough of their petty fighting. I would say thay are both caustic in their own way.
@seonidh Agreed. I wish the two of them could just put the bs behind them and get back to what they are good at. They've both gotten caught up in bs in recent times, and from my perspective, Tf00t especially. We all play our part in this atheist community (namely the people who get on camera), and instead of squabbling among each other and trying to delve into areas we simply aren't that good at (Tf00t, if you're reading this...), thus making asses of ourselves, we should play to our strengths
@pumarunner88 Agreed. I even tried to address it to Coughlan when I said they were both immature. I suggested ceratin people should grow up and he said I should "grow down" and blocked me. He must think I'm a tf fanboy but no I'm not although I like his science videos which are excellent. They waste time on petty arguments and creationists like NephilimFree must love this its like watching the political satyre from the jewish groups fight each other in the Life of Brian. Both are moronic fools
If our brains most intimate workings are subject to physical laws, if their structures are a result of those laws and if their functionality subject to those laws, then I see no room for free will.If every piece and reaction are determined by the nature of reality, how then can the completed assembly be free from the binds that forged it?There is reason for doubt.
I suppose that if we ever find a way of splitting time, we could test it out.
Until then: - Is the burden on the free-will-believer, to show that free will exists? - Or is it on the determinist to demonstrate how the illusion of free will can exist in a deterministic universe?
This is a subject I have talked about many times and I always correct people when they say everything happens for a reason and tell them no but there is a reason everything happens. I can tell you this for sure if you were able to see the future no action you could take would change that future as then it would not be the future but just a possible outcome. In short there is no future only now and your free will is your based on your ability to manipulate the now, to form a new now. more...
@TheRenekruse having said that, we all know that all actions have ractions and you will react as you will react and as such that was gonna happen in your live from the day you were born will happen in your life and as such your freewill is only the diving force what will be stearing you towards the new now which you exist in each momment and there is not a single thing you can do about it, you are who you were always gonna be, predetermined or not. Peace and thumbs up
Good video. I think people mix up two different ideas about "reason for being here". There are reasons, consequential effects of causes, but that is distinct from intended purpose, which implies an intelligence that is experiencing the "intent". These two seperate concepts are often confused when people talk about being here for a reason.
There's a lurking infiinity: What's the intent behind the purpose behind the intent? And a paradox: What if the intent is for me to decide other than intended?
@TLSlayer1 you're right, who by no means implies a god, much less the Christian one. (though if the question was "why is there a universe", it kind of does). But in a debate, the theists get a lot of mileage from it being who, since science has found no aliens and thus has no real answer to this (the wrong) question. Essentially, it puts on you the same footing, debate-wise, but this is partly due to the inherent problems of the debate format.
Well... everything happens for a reason also could be said as everything has a cause (and effect). I know this isn't the way they are meaning it, but it is another way to think about it.
You see, this is what happens when you get your philosophy from stephbot. You have completely misplaced the burden of proof.
First, define free will and as ontological concept. What is it free of?
Do you have the slighest evidence that the law of conservation of energy breaks down in human skulls, or are you "taking a leap"? Or are you so philosophically and scientifically unlettered that you are unware that any argument for "free" will *commits* you *perforce*...
Free will can't exist. There are only two states of being a thing can occupy as to *not* be one is to, by definition, *be* the other. Something is either random, or determined. There is no room for being in between. Sure, random things can work WITH determined things, but neither randomness nor determination leaves room for free will in the religious sense. However we do, most often, act based on what we WANT, which is the only concept of free will that I care about having.
my sentiments exactly. this is the subject that i find most frustrating because i see it as being so blatantly obvious that trying to explain it to someone feels like trying to explain that i have 2 arms or the sky is blue or that it was in fact me who just stole your sandwich. these aren't things that require explanations, they're just facts that we use and rely on to make day to day situations make sense.
Dennet made an excellent speech on how he believes in a deterministic universe AND a free will at the same time.
It's somewhere in my favorites - if you'd like to watch it I can find it for you
My own stance on the matter is something like why are we so obsessed with having free will? It think that the illusion of having free will is enough to keep us happy. So long as it subjectively feels to me like I have free will I'm perfectly content even if someone proves that it's not the case.
@itsjustameme Free will isn't even a concept. It's an empty phrase, born of confusion, that means literally absolutely nothing at all and is entirely unworthy of extended philosophical discussion.
As Marvin Minsky says, just because so many thick-headed philosophers are still talking about it does *not* mean it is an unsettled question.
It is not.
Neurophysics makes it perfectly clear that the brain is no way exempt from the thermodynamic laws that govern all other physical systems.
I just lost two minutes and thirty-nine seconds of my life to a mysterious blackout. When I woke up, I had given this video a thumbs up and posted a supportive comment. Darn that BionicDance and her alluring mind control powers!
@BionicDance not a problem, firstly it gets the message out, second your videos are high quality edited very well with a message for people to (In the manner of Kuato from Total Recall) to open our minds. Or at least get faith heads as dawkins says to question. I have ponderd making my own videos about my life in Japan a country with a very large athiest population and low crime rate but I dont think people would understand my accent :(
I'm of the opinion while some events are deterministic on a large scale, there's enough probablistic stuff going on at the quantum level that what we perceive as free will is in actuality the result of probablistic events at the quantum level.
However, as there are so many such events interacting in and between each of us, and all those events affecting the outcome of the others, that it's pretty much useless to try quantifying them. Hence, "free will."
The whole idea of free will being an illusion is what really fries my brain.It was tough enough coming to the conclusion that there's probably no god,and nobody up there looking out for us. It was also really touch to accept that most likely when we die, the only thing that happens is we rot What's maddening though, is the idea that there is no free will, and all my choices are pre-ordained, that I have no control over my life. It's depressing as hell..
I once asked a christian, "Why doesn't God stop the bad guys" he then said "because of free will". So gave the following example. Guy walks in a crowded mall pulls out a gun and kills good chunk of people in front of children scaring them for life. The solution I give is that his gun jams so he is unable to commit the massacre. The response was "no, because he was robbed of his free will." So I ask, "How? It was a weapon error not a sudden change of mind." It was never explained to me. -.-
The more attempts I hear to explain "free will" the more convinced I become it is just another vague nonsense term for another simple naturalistic reality that is only complicated when you're trying to square it with magic sky daddy.
I remember thinking about this when I was a kid, maybe after I read Foundation. But it seems like a lot of people don't understand what you say when you say the physics of your brain determines your choices, even if you seem to have free will. The Non-Prophets had a notorious free will debate, but I'm not sure that all of them got the point. But if your choices are the result of chemistry, they are the choices you would prefer to make, because of who you are. Ummm, right?
@cerealboy7 In that case, I find I must apologize; I created the script for this back on February 19th...and then sat on it for AGES. Heh. Sorry about that...but good I got to it eventually, neh? :)
@BionicDance hell, it doesn't matter, thanks. though i really hate (not really hate) how so few people agree with the concept of free will being an illusion, they just don't introspect deep enough.
"You can do what you will, but in any given moment of your life you can will only one definite thing and absolutely nothing other than that one thing." - Arthur Schopenhauer
He also said some outrageous things about women too but lets leave that.
This video tries to cover universal events with human conscious and unconscious choices and decisions. Sure if humans were totally free one might imagine us to be conscious minds in the forms of energy like in that tv-series Stargate. Ascendent beings capable of moving, thinking, doing what ever such movable free minds might want to. But we're still free in as many levels that we're not trapped.
A person not in a straight-jacket is still freer than a man in a straight-jacket.
I might add, if the events of the Universe are, indeed, heading toward a specific purpose, the act of it reaching that purpose would probably depend on us not being able to prove it or identify what it is.
I would say it is an illusion. That's strictly academic though as control is really a paradigm that fits better for utility on this topic. I certainly agree the universe is predetermined and there is no evidence for any invisible hand guiding it.
Sisyphusredeemed did a great video about that different way to look at the free will debate. I made a reply with my take on it, where I talk about why we have this illusion. You might find it interesting.
Yep. Free will is an illusion. So is choice. There may be choices available to you, but you only have one brain chemistry that'll only ever make you go one way. Having choices and exercising choice are different concepts.
@rhettboy There you go. Perfectly said. It really is exactly that simple (setting aside that the physics and chemistry of the brain are anything but simple).
I've long since stopped defining free will in the sense you address it as... for the obvious reason that you're right. It's not only more enlightening but also more interesting to define it more as something internal, like as the ability to understand why one does what one does, or as the understanding of what one truly ought to do. Free will certainly does exist... it just isn't a physical ability, like in the sense of liberty.
@BionicDance Like I said, it depends how you define it. There is a definition of Free Will that consists only in the ability to do what you want, and the things that can oppose this freedom are obstacles and other people. There are other senses of the word, like the ones that Rousseau and Hegel use, that consist in the ability to make choices you understand (regardless of physical obstacles), and what opposes this is ignorance and intellectual cowardice.
How can you tell, you ask?
Well, according to Michael Hoffman, you can tell by taking effective amounts of entheogens. We're talking Terence McKenna-recommended doses of something like psilocybin, for instance. What happens at the height of that experience, according to Hoffman, is incontrovertible evidence for "hard determinism" which he expounds all quite thoroughly at this website at vvvvvv.egodeath.com! If you're interested, it's definitely worth checking out or YT search Ramesh Balsekar!
Hanahleia 2 weeks ago
I'm, actually, quite amazed that you postulate the belief that there is no such thing as freewill when no one and no thing forced you or coerced you into making this vid-clip presentation. What occured is that you made the cognitive choice to make this presentation. By your own action, you have established the case for freewill...
mdlittle5466 2 months ago
@mdlittle5466 Really? But where did my actions come from? Where did my decisions come from? If this world is entirely material, is free will not an illusion brought about by complicated electro-chemical processes, an emergent quality of purely material--and hence, deterministic--physical components of this universe?
BionicDance 2 months ago
@BionicDance Perhaps, but that would allude to your being coerced in some form and/or fashion to produce this vid-clip. Now ask yourself, honestly, what could have been your compulsion to do so?...now if you were paid or offered some sort of reward, then it would be understandable - but if you were not, then why did you make it? I know why I watched it...because I made a cognitive choice to watch even though there was nothing to be gained physically by doing so...and that's entirely factual.
mdlittle5466 2 months ago
@mdlittle5466 No, that doesn't say ANYTHING about being coerced. It just means that producing this video clip was an emergent property of the physical structure of my brain and the stimuli it was subjected to by the universe.
BionicDance 2 months ago
@BionicDance Alright, before we proceed...I'll have you know that I am familiar with stimuli, subject matter utilized to incur a reaction from the target in question. If you were subjected to stimuli, then you were...in some form and fashion incured to react in some form and fashion to make this video. So, now that we've established a mutual understanding - what was the stimuli that incured you to create this video?...in short, in a 'physically-deterministic world' - what coerced you?
mdlittle5466 2 months ago
@mdlittle5466 Oh, come now; you HAVE to know that's an impossible question to answer. If you understand how the brain works AT ALL, you have to know it was not one single stimulus, nor would it necessarily be something immediately identified. Furthermore, this video was made SEVEN MONTHS AGO, so memory will have faded as it is.
This is not a question subject to answer, not with today's technology, not without having recorded months--perhaps even YEARS--of stimulus...it just can't be done!
BionicDance 2 months ago
@BionicDance If it is an impossible question to answer, they you cannot even say for certain that your initial postulation is accurate or even valid. Perhaps, most likely, all that occured was that you simply arrived, in your mind, a query and elected (...if naught but for yourself...) to create this video? Nothing coerced you (...unless you're lying...) and you simply had the time and the will to do so...they call that 'freewill'.
mdlittle5466 2 months ago
@mdlittle5466 But I'm NOT saying for certain; at no point in this entire discussion have I claimed to be saying for certain. I'm speculating.
But I have to ask you...if it occurred in my mind, HOW did it occur? WHY did it occur? What MADE it occur? Hmm?
And I also never said ANYTHING about being coerced. I think you don't actually understand the subject matter, frankly; you seem to have some very strange notions of what I'm talking about that don't match reality.
BionicDance 2 months ago
@BionicDance Hmmm...now that's a valid query - how, in a 'physical-deterministic world' (...as you ascribe in your vid-clip...) can a brain comprised of bio-chemical reactions establish independent thought when thought, apparently, is derived from a physical manifestation - our brain. Fortunately neuroscientists have discovered that our thoughts are not entirely bound by the wirings of our neurons and dendrons. In truth, just by thinking about it...we can 'rewire' our own brains. Interesting...
mdlittle5466 2 months ago
@mdlittle5466 And yet, that we CAN 'rewire' our brains still does not mean we are exerting free will to do so; that we've done so could STILL be a product of determinism.
My question to you is: how do we tell which it is?
BionicDance 2 months ago
@BionicDance That's dualistic thinking and disengenuous...neither worth appending regarding the current subject matter. It is clear that thought processes require the brain to be established - damage the brain, damage the thought process. However, individuals have be able to recover from head trauma with substantial portions of thier brain extracted, but still function as if nothing had been removed. There is, to some degree, determinism...but there is also freewill - case in point: suicide.
mdlittle5466 2 months ago
@mdlittle5466 I'm sorry, but that doesn't follow. Suicide could easily be deterministic.
BionicDance 2 months ago
@BionicDance Intriguing...coersion to self-terminate due to external physical stimuli. While I'll refrain from obvious examples such as torture and willful neglect...what, in a 'physically-determistic world' could sponsor the desire to self-terminate?...because if you can come up with the answer to that, then you clearly have missed your calling and should be a counselor. Alas, the causes for suicide are as varied as the means to commit said act...you postulate generalization and that's invalid.
mdlittle5466 2 months ago
@mdlittle5466 Who says the desire to self-terminate is a PLANNED thing? All it takes is the right--or wrong--stimuli; it has nothing to do with what "should" be. In a deterministic universe, "should" doesn't even exist!
I'm sorry, but you're simply not properly looking at how a deterministic universe would function; you keep imposing values upon it that would not exist if it were the case.
BionicDance 2 months ago
@BionicDance My dear, naive and ever-so-egotistical young lady. I will be mindful to toss a tulip upon your grave when you, inadvertently, stumble across your 'kamakazi killswitch'.
mdlittle5466 2 months ago
@BionicDance Sorry...didn't mean to be a 'killjoy'.
mdlittle5466 2 months ago
ok .. so because quantum physics proves randomness exist that means that everything is random ... everything that happened and will happen is purely random ... and we have to make decissions in random situations.. so that's who we are creatures that make decisions based on the curent situation wich is random ... => free will ... cause we decide what we do in that UNIQUE situation .. that is purely inpredictable even if it seems likely you never know for sure what will happen..
m37rax 2 months ago
if our will was free, then everyone would be equally influenced one way or the other. that's obviously not the case..our choices usually depend on the culmination of whatever thoughts happen to pop into our heads..if u end up choosing to order the steak instead of the lobster, what was in charge of that choice? the thoughts that happened to culminate into leading to that choice were in charge..do we have the free will to control our thoughts from moment to moment? no. they "spring from the void"
itzahazylife 3 months ago
"Ignorance killed the cat; curiosity was framed". I laughed so hard I almost wet my damn pants. Okay, it's official. You're my hero.
marianware 8 months ago
@marianware Well, as the credits say, that's not my own, but I'm glad you dig it. :)
BionicDance 8 months ago
Heh, I had a vid on the same subject, and came to the same "how could we even know anyway?" conclusion. We're just a point in a timeline either way, so whether it actually exists or is just a persistent illusion feels like a non-issue.
HelplessVictim 9 months ago
Free will to me is a wildcard, that when we are destined to do what we should but chooses not to. I'm in to the parallel universe type.
emancoy 9 months ago
I think that at quantum scale there are true random events. Macroscopical objects behave in sort of statistical mean value way. If this is the case then future events can not be predicted with arbitrary precision by calculations, any single event may lead to many different outcomes. It is not just human inability, it is property of nature. Hence, free will.
z3my4l 9 months ago
@z3my4l It APPEARS that there are random events at the quantum level...but it may also be our inability to detect the cause of those events with our present level of scientific understanding.
BionicDance 9 months ago
@BionicDance determinism and free will R not exactly opposites. I think a deterministic universe would make free will impossible. quantum randomness might allow an opening for a god to alter the path of a particle in a way science would be unable to detect, but this quantum randomness even if real, wouldn't make free will a necessity. the important question related to free will is about responsibility. if we have no free will, why reward/punish good/bad behavior. please help save planet from AGW
jffryh 9 months ago
@z3my4l Why would randomness entail freedom? We say that the result of a coin toss is random, but that does not mean that it is up to someone.
theamdude 9 months ago
@z3my4l That conclusion is not logical. Many different outcomes, yes, but the outcome that does result is not a result of a "choice". Saying that fufture events cannot be predicted with arbitrary precision does not imply free will. In fact I'd say that it speaks *against* free will even more; that our choices are not only inescapable conclusions given the circumstances, but even worse, the results of probability. Still no third person agent that "does the willing".
waperboy 4 months ago
Good question - lol
BrianJ1962 9 months ago
Dyke.
Lloyath 9 months ago
@Lloyath Proud of it, baby!
BionicDance 9 months ago 7
@BionicDance
GAWD HAYTES DYKES HERPDY DERPY DURRR!!
SecularNumanist 9 months ago
@SecularNumanist the solipsistic argument can't be refuted
gratex 9 months ago
@gratex
neither can the argument for the invisible floating teapot.
SecularNumanist 9 months ago
@SecularNumanist shutup beavis
gratex 9 months ago
@gratex
So I guess that makes you Butthead?
Guncriminal 9 months ago
@gratex Actualy it can your brain has to refrence things in order to create a world.Youd have needed to see it at one point and then it could be a figment of your imagination.
Also theres an issue with contact.How are we able to learn without having anything really infront of us to contact or dissect?solipsism has two major flaws which make it fallible.1 is contact.the senses are there to contact something.and the fact that we can proves that theres an object there.the 2nd is death.How do die?
TheKatsuTsuki 9 months ago
@TheKatsuTsuki your brain creates that world,which is the premise of solipsism... your brain creates dreams, schizophrenics "contact" their hallucinations. You may say that those dreams are reflections of external objects in an objective universe and I'd agree, but the argument is that they are figments of an imagination, which implies that what we call consciousness is also an illusion of that/my/your brain.
gratex 9 months ago
@gratex if all was an illusion contact with other objects would be impossible and death itself would seem an impossible feat.and the likeliness of everythng being an illusion is ridiculous even on theoretical standards.
Theres no reason to believe illusions can fully take over your senses.nor make can an imagination make you die.
TheKatsuTsuki 9 months ago
@TheKatsuTsuki yes, but you can't verify the accuracy of your senses using information gained via your senses, and since there's no other method of gathering data one must accept that belief in an objective universe is a leap of faith.
gratex 9 months ago
@gratex actualy I think you can.Senses serve only one purpose and thats to find an object.The object may or may not be sensed by all your senses but if you bump into a wall you cant see then the wall is still there.the fact is that a solipsist life would have to come after the real thing.your imagination cannot create something from nothing so the information would have to come from some where.This would suggest that there is atleast one realittalso the concept of reality itself is quite vague
TheKatsuTsuki 9 months ago
@TheKatsuTsuki a wall is a wall because the brain defined it as such, you can't walk through something that's defined as a wall because you've defined it to be impenetrable. "your imagination" is just one other thing that could be part of the illusion. It's an entirely feasible model of an immaterial universe that's just has valid as a material model. As I said it's a leap of faith either way.
gratex 9 months ago
@TheKatsuTsuki as far as birth/death is concerned, if such a model was true you'd find that your existence is eternity. you won't know death other than a fantasy that is created by yourself.
gratex 9 months ago
@gratex Reality is just a physical plain which means if the fantasy can act as such then it is reality.an illusion woulndt be able to do anything to you and any reaction would be a mental trick.one you could track and very well prove is an illusion.Imagine a virtual reality where everything in it works just as physically as you perceive it.Ie you get cut it hurts you bleed.then that too would be reality not an illusion.illusions are easy to track and have limits.reality has cause and effect.
TheKatsuTsuki 9 months ago
@Lloyath fuckhead
216trixie 9 months ago
@Lloyath at least she can come out of the closet
HOAX900 9 months ago
@Lloyath Douche.
falcoperegrinus82 9 months ago
I enjoyed this more than anything I've seen in a while. And that was before the closing line, the bit about ignorance killing the cat, which was absolutely fucking BRILLIANT. I'm totally swiping that and using it in conversation with non-YouTube folks, so I can seem more clever than I am.
OgreVI 9 months ago
We don't choose our will, we can just choose to act on it. I can't control what I desire. I find it hard to believe we live in a predetermined universe where my particles can, though highly unlikely, act as a wave and appear else where. Not to mention kids being hit by drunk drivers, random earthquakes killing 1000s+, some idiot raping a defenseless woman, a little child being hit by a stray bullet. How deluded does one have to be to believe that there's a 'reason' for that? The fuck?
HybridD91 9 months ago
Call someone stupid because she doesn't agree with you is a sign of immaturity. I get her point that she doesn't believe there is a hand guiding what is going on due to her arguement of free will. I understand her reasoning but I disagree with her. Even though I don't agree with her, I don't think it is right for individuals to attack her personally instead of having an intellectual debate.
KashukoProductions 9 months ago
Dan Dennett did a lecture on this in Edinburgh in 2008
Is Science Showing That We Don't Have Free Will?
watch?v=5cSgVgrC-6Y
toppledgod 9 months ago
Youre stupid. Put a fucking shirt on for the love of all things.
bobdaveb 9 months ago
@bobdaveb Agreed!
kal1mar1 9 months ago
They're saying that it's a better thing for a woman to be raped than not to be raped.
They're saying people being born with trisomy 18 is better than people not being born with trisomy 18. (fatal genetic disorder, they live in agony for a little while and then die)
Unless they're not saying that it's a predetermined by a concious entity and that it's good, and are merely stating the obvious, in which case they're probably the kind of simpleton who also says things like "water is wet".
wormsto 9 months ago
"A person has free will to the extent of they know who they are."- Alan Watts
MostKnownUnKnown91 9 months ago
I love the comment at the end! How do you kill the zombie that is ignorance?
MyContext 9 months ago
A while back I read something about the philosophy concerning free will. That is, it's pretty much proven as fact that we make decisions unconsciously, well before we are aware of it consciously. This gives a bit of a problem, because it removes legal liability.
What this one thing proposed, is that we're veto'ing these made choices consciously, thus still keeping legal liability. Maybe I can find the video where it came up.. Was interesting to listen to, eventho I'm not really into philosophy
Shangori 9 months ago
@Shangori Here'z the thing, though...if choices are made unconsciously, and if laws are choices, then making the laws is no more an act of conscious will than what the law addresses. It all works out in the end.
BionicDance 9 months ago
@BionicDance Wow... deep... I'm totally spacing out here.. Well, give me a few beers and I will.
Not sure you can simply see a law as a choice. Plenty of laws are set from our own accumulated tendencies coming from our evolutionary history.
Found the video: watch?v=la31lOcbDHc It's a long one, but I enjoyed it.
Shangori 9 months ago
@BionicDance unconscious decisions are a lovely mix of basic wants and needs and emotional adeptness.Emotions help us make decisions tat our more logical wants and needs find hard to make.
for instance its much easier to make a decision on two identical couches once you sit in them and you like one.its just info you cant track easily not info with an intent.Philosophy cant answer anything it only asks questions.to answer this truly wed have to have a better understanding of where we are.
TheKatsuTsuki 9 months ago
@Shangori "This gives a bit of a problem, because it removes legal liability."
It really doesn't. What causes our legal system to go into exceptional processing mode is not that people don't consciously make decisions, but rather that people are sometimes so fucked up mentally that insane asylums are more appropriate than jail(for example, there are many different situations where our judgment changes). No aspect of our legal system is affected by our decision making process being automatic.
Gnomefro 9 months ago
@Shangori In fact, it's pretty much a contradiction to assume that one's decisions aren't automatic, because to call something "Your choice" means that the choice was restricted by your nature, desires, motives etc. Whether or not you have a conscious experience really is irrelevant to bystanders anyway. We have no way of knowing if you have such experiences or not. We react to what you do and our appreciation of the situation.
Gnomefro 9 months ago
@Shangori - It was SisyphusRedeemed - I believe it was discussing how free will/predetermination was not a particularly useful thing to argue about, and we should move beyond those terms. That the one you were talking about?
Jaelra 9 months ago
@Shangori "Justice" is a reaction to an action just like any other action thus being dependent on actions like the actions that caused this action called justice :).
HybridD91 9 months ago
I say things like...it will all work out ect.....Though in my side thoughts I know I have to be the one to make sure it happens (This is just my way of stepping back from an overwhelming situation and giving myself time to breath.)
So its not that I disagree with you its just that there are a lot of unknown factors in your comment and I am attempting to close what I see as one of the gaps in your logic:)
inquiry10 9 months ago
I hate the term free will: either you're following conscious or unconscious rules in your read or your putting random input into your decision mix. Any way you cut it your decisions aren't truly free. Autonomous will is my preferred terminology as it captures the fact you 'made' the choice autonomously (without external pressures), rather than 'freely'.
XenogeneGray 9 months ago
How the hell do you not have as many subscribers as Thunder00t at this point?
pumarunner88 9 months ago
@pumarunner88 I have truly no idea. Alas.
Believe me, if I knew what I was doing wrong, I'd correct it...but in my own personal style.
BionicDance 9 months ago
@BionicDance In all honesty though, I think it's better to have 10,000 quality subs than 130,000 subs, a fair chunk of which may be questionable. Tf00t used to be great, but damn, I can't deny it anymore, the guy is getting to the point of flat out suckage. He's really lost his way... gotten ridiculously hung up on the Islam issue, the youtube drama with Coughlan (I'm disappointed in both of them for that bs). In any case, don't change your style/ways - they are MUCH more interesting than new TF
pumarunner88 9 months ago 3
@pumarunner88 I agree with what you say about Tf00t, and I've unsubbed from him quite recently--less than a week ago--because of his getting hung up on Islam. What is it about British people and getting hung up on Islam, anyway...? I mean, first there was victimlesscriminal, then Pat Condell, now Tf00t...it's like coughlan is the exception that points out the rule.
I miss the old Tf00t, the one who debunk religious claims with science.
And I'll do my best to stay awesome for ya. :)
BionicDance 9 months ago
@BionicDance Islam is a much bigger deal over there across the pond. They have a lot of immigration from Islamic areas and it's breeds tensions.
TF00t hasn't lost my sub, but it would be nice if he got back to the Pwnage and/or science content.
JuryDutySummons 9 months ago
@JuryDutySummons Last I checked, Tf00t lives in the US, on the East Coast somewhere. Just sayin'.
But, yeah, I wanna see him get back to pwnage and science content; it's what he's best at. His attempts to rally the crowd politically are just...sad.
BionicDance 9 months ago
@BionicDance Ah, yeah, right. For some reason he gives off a British vibe. To me, at least. Maybe it's the under-spoken intellectualismness that I racistly ascribe to the brits.
JuryDutySummons 9 months ago
@JuryDutySummons Well, Tf00t has a British accent; I assume he's a Brit living in the States.
BionicDance 9 months ago
@BionicDance this might shed some partial light at the situation in UK: watch?v=oc7PqjD_S3s
Paxmax 9 months ago
@BionicDance "What is it about British people and getting hung up on Islam, anyway...?"
Not up to speed on the development of Eurabia? =) Merkel, Cameron and Sarkozy have all gone public declaring multiculturalism a failure. If you live in the US you may possibly not have a proper appreciation of the kind of appeasement policy that's been going around in Europe for far too long. Basically it's all about saying that enough is enough.
Gnomefro 9 months ago
@BionicDance I suppose you might also have difficulty appreciating exactly how secular Europe is if you live in the US. Europeans had essentially forgotten that there were people taking religion seriously and have just recently woken up to the fact that they've imported millions of delusional cultists who are happy to see western values such as freedom of speech, democracy and modern science burn in favor of bronze age myth.
It's still a tossup if we'll be fighting civil wars about that.
Gnomefro 9 months ago
@Gnomefro I still think they're WAY overreacting to it, tho...
SOME of them, anyway; coughlan seems to have a sense of proportion.
BionicDance 9 months ago
@pumarunner88 I have to agree on the bickering between coughlan and tf really two grown men in their thirties acting like this. Its not about the video content its about ego and personalities who both dislike each other and both have a court filled with fools happy to sqabble back and fourth. Its damaged athiesm I've had enough of their petty fighting. I would say thay are both caustic in their own way.
seonidh 9 months ago
@seonidh Agreed. I wish the two of them could just put the bs behind them and get back to what they are good at. They've both gotten caught up in bs in recent times, and from my perspective, Tf00t especially. We all play our part in this atheist community (namely the people who get on camera), and instead of squabbling among each other and trying to delve into areas we simply aren't that good at (Tf00t, if you're reading this...), thus making asses of ourselves, we should play to our strengths
pumarunner88 9 months ago
@pumarunner88 Agreed. I even tried to address it to Coughlan when I said they were both immature. I suggested ceratin people should grow up and he said I should "grow down" and blocked me. He must think I'm a tf fanboy but no I'm not although I like his science videos which are excellent. They waste time on petty arguments and creationists like NephilimFree must love this its like watching the political satyre from the jewish groups fight each other in the Life of Brian. Both are moronic fools
seonidh 9 months ago
The Universe is out to get us because it finds us tasty!
TheRedneckAtheist 9 months ago
@TheRedneckAtheist Rawr! Chaos exists, or the universe would be pudding!
Laughingblades 9 months ago
Love the outro to this one.
MsReasonAddict 9 months ago
I'm having flashbacks to discussions after watching the matrix series, very fun.
vyrmethrax 9 months ago
If our brains most intimate workings are subject to physical laws, if their structures are a result of those laws and if their functionality subject to those laws, then I see no room for free will.If every piece and reaction are determined by the nature of reality, how then can the completed assembly be free from the binds that forged it?There is reason for doubt.
TheScheckig 9 months ago
Free will and a fully omnipotent God are contradictory =3
OukaKisa 9 months ago
I don't think we 100% free will.
If we did we could choose our gender and favorite ice cream flavor.
flammamancer 9 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"You cannot escape your destiny." - Obi-Wan Kenobi
tunabomber111 9 months ago
How much 'choice' does someone have when looking both ways to cross a busy intersection?
I wish I could take credit for the above quote, but I can't - I found it a couple months ago reading different blogs on free will vs. determinism.
WntrSolstice2012 9 months ago
I suppose that if we ever find a way of splitting time, we could test it out.
Until then: - Is the burden on the free-will-believer, to show that free will exists? - Or is it on the determinist to demonstrate how the illusion of free will can exist in a deterministic universe?
cartbeforehorse 9 months ago
Great example with the fractals.
Mithcoriel 9 months ago
I hope we have free will. To think otherwise creeps me out.
bookcreator 9 months ago
@bookcreator It creeps me out more to think that I somehow "decided" to get where I am today!
cartbeforehorse 9 months ago
@bookcreator The truth doesn't have to be nice. It just has to be true.
rhettboy 9 months ago
I didn't decide to thumb up this video, it was predetermined.
fishypaw 9 months ago
Funny how you and I started covering this topic on the same day XD
ItchiroCannotDie 9 months ago
@ItchiroCannotDie I wrote this vid in February...d'know why I decided to make it NOW. Weird.
BionicDance 9 months ago
This is a subject I have talked about many times and I always correct people when they say everything happens for a reason and tell them no but there is a reason everything happens. I can tell you this for sure if you were able to see the future no action you could take would change that future as then it would not be the future but just a possible outcome. In short there is no future only now and your free will is your based on your ability to manipulate the now, to form a new now. more...
TheRenekruse 9 months ago
@TheRenekruse having said that, we all know that all actions have ractions and you will react as you will react and as such that was gonna happen in your live from the day you were born will happen in your life and as such your freewill is only the diving force what will be stearing you towards the new now which you exist in each momment and there is not a single thing you can do about it, you are who you were always gonna be, predetermined or not. Peace and thumbs up
TheRenekruse 9 months ago
hmm....must have more coffee and view again :D
my will is only as free as my mind...
that said, my mind is much freer since i became an atheist!and my life is larger since i became finite!
practicalmagic9 9 months ago
Good video. I think people mix up two different ideas about "reason for being here". There are reasons, consequential effects of causes, but that is distinct from intended purpose, which implies an intelligence that is experiencing the "intent". These two seperate concepts are often confused when people talk about being here for a reason.
There's a lurking infiinity: What's the intent behind the purpose behind the intent? And a paradox: What if the intent is for me to decide other than intended?
Teloculos 9 months ago
@TLSlayer1 you're right, who by no means implies a god, much less the Christian one. (though if the question was "why is there a universe", it kind of does). But in a debate, the theists get a lot of mileage from it being who, since science has found no aliens and thus has no real answer to this (the wrong) question. Essentially, it puts on you the same footing, debate-wise, but this is partly due to the inherent problems of the debate format.
Brandt761 9 months ago
Well... everything happens for a reason also could be said as everything has a cause (and effect). I know this isn't the way they are meaning it, but it is another way to think about it.
itbevee 9 months ago
of course everything happens for a reason... to restore balance to the force
AidanTAKFW 9 months ago
Hey the universe revolves around me ;)
dunndudebemelol 9 months ago
inb4 nobody has heard of the principle of sufficient reason
SecularNumanist 9 months ago
@PostITnoteGUY
I.
You see, this is what happens when you get your philosophy from stephbot. You have completely misplaced the burden of proof.
First, define free will and as ontological concept. What is it free of?
Do you have the slighest evidence that the law of conservation of energy breaks down in human skulls, or are you "taking a leap"? Or are you so philosophically and scientifically unlettered that you are unware that any argument for "free" will *commits* you *perforce*...
polymath7 9 months ago
II. ...to an assertion that the human brain is in some way exempt from the laws of thermodynamics, whether you realize it or not?
If our past interactions are any indication, you'll just whine like a child that you're being trolled.
polymath7 9 months ago
@polymath7 *as an ontological concept
polymath7 9 months ago
What is the deity doing the "meant"ing is a complete idiot? or hates you? Or wants to eat you?
dechha1981 9 months ago
Free will can't exist. There are only two states of being a thing can occupy as to *not* be one is to, by definition, *be* the other. Something is either random, or determined. There is no room for being in between. Sure, random things can work WITH determined things, but neither randomness nor determination leaves room for free will in the religious sense. However we do, most often, act based on what we WANT, which is the only concept of free will that I care about having.
sandform 9 months ago
We have will.
Obviously.
What is it supposed to be free of? Physics?
Not a fucking chance.
End!
polymath7 9 months ago
my sentiments exactly. this is the subject that i find most frustrating because i see it as being so blatantly obvious that trying to explain it to someone feels like trying to explain that i have 2 arms or the sky is blue or that it was in fact me who just stole your sandwich. these aren't things that require explanations, they're just facts that we use and rely on to make day to day situations make sense.
dreadpiratedan 9 months ago
Again Classic Bionic outdoes herself with flawless, direct, accurate bare facts spoken in perfect diction. Stunning visual editing!
spootboot 9 months ago
@spootboot Aww, shucks, thanks; one does one's best. :)
BionicDance 9 months ago 2
Everything happens for a reason, but that reason is imbued by us, not some external force.
RomeoCo 9 months ago
Dennet made an excellent speech on how he believes in a deterministic universe AND a free will at the same time.
It's somewhere in my favorites - if you'd like to watch it I can find it for you
My own stance on the matter is something like why are we so obsessed with having free will? It think that the illusion of having free will is enough to keep us happy. So long as it subjectively feels to me like I have free will I'm perfectly content even if someone proves that it's not the case.
itsjustameme 9 months ago
@itsjustameme Most people HATE the idea of not being in control. I'm sure that's a large part of it.
Plus, it really IS counter-intuitive to think we're not in control of our decisions/actions.
BionicDance 9 months ago
@itsjustameme Free will isn't even a concept. It's an empty phrase, born of confusion, that means literally absolutely nothing at all and is entirely unworthy of extended philosophical discussion.
As Marvin Minsky says, just because so many thick-headed philosophers are still talking about it does *not* mean it is an unsettled question.
It is not.
Neurophysics makes it perfectly clear that the brain is no way exempt from the thermodynamic laws that govern all other physical systems.
polymath7 9 months ago
I just lost two minutes and thirty-nine seconds of my life to a mysterious blackout. When I woke up, I had given this video a thumbs up and posted a supportive comment. Darn that BionicDance and her alluring mind control powers!
MorteMcAdaver 9 months ago
@MorteMcAdaver *rubs hands together and grins evilly*
BionicDance 9 months ago
In fact its added to my favourites so my friends and subscribers can see it
seonidh 9 months ago
@seonidh Thanks! I appreciate that! :)
BionicDance 9 months ago
@BionicDance not a problem, firstly it gets the message out, second your videos are high quality edited very well with a message for people to (In the manner of Kuato from Total Recall) to open our minds. Or at least get faith heads as dawkins says to question. I have ponderd making my own videos about my life in Japan a country with a very large athiest population and low crime rate but I dont think people would understand my accent :(
seonidh 9 months ago
@seonidh I...hope I'm marginally more attractive than Kuato.
Just sayin'. Heh.
BionicDance 9 months ago
@BionicDance Har of course! I think we would have realized if you werent
seonidh 9 months ago
My mom (electrical engineer) once described fractals as "what math *really* looks like."
zEropoint68 9 months ago
Very good video one of the best
seonidh 9 months ago
I'm of the opinion while some events are deterministic on a large scale, there's enough probablistic stuff going on at the quantum level that what we perceive as free will is in actuality the result of probablistic events at the quantum level.
However, as there are so many such events interacting in and between each of us, and all those events affecting the outcome of the others, that it's pretty much useless to try quantifying them. Hence, "free will."
I try not to worry about it. :)
firefly4f4 9 months ago
@BayAreaAtheist I'm not sure I agree; it's biology that forces determinism upon us...
BionicDance 9 months ago
The whole idea of free will being an illusion is what really fries my brain.It was tough enough coming to the conclusion that there's probably no god,and nobody up there looking out for us. It was also really touch to accept that most likely when we die, the only thing that happens is we rot What's maddening though, is the idea that there is no free will, and all my choices are pre-ordained, that I have no control over my life. It's depressing as hell..
TranscendentBiscuit 9 months ago
@TranscendentBiscuit Well, the illusion of free will keeps things interesting at least, neh?
BionicDance 9 months ago
@TranscendentBiscuit What is "free will" as opposed to mere "will"? I see no paradox at all.
polymath7 9 months ago
One of your best.
GreatBigBore 9 months ago in playlist Stoopid YouTube
@GreatBigBore Thanks! :)
BionicDance 9 months ago
I love you .......................lol
invisibletime 9 months ago
I once asked a christian, "Why doesn't God stop the bad guys" he then said "because of free will". So gave the following example. Guy walks in a crowded mall pulls out a gun and kills good chunk of people in front of children scaring them for life. The solution I give is that his gun jams so he is unable to commit the massacre. The response was "no, because he was robbed of his free will." So I ask, "How? It was a weapon error not a sudden change of mind." It was never explained to me. -.-
cheddar07 9 months ago
@cheddar07 I wonder if he'd STILL have been robbed of his free will if, say, Superman had lept in front of the bullets.
And were the people being shot NOT robbed of their free will? I bet they didn't WANT to be shot...
BionicDance 9 months ago
@BionicDance I'm on a roll 2 videos in a row I get a reply from you :P
Any who that is exactly what I asked minus the superman thing XD. But it was not explained and subject was changed. Typical -.-
P.S. I like the curiosity was framed i think i might use it if you don't mind :)
cheddar07 9 months ago
@cheddar07 I try to reply to as many comments as I can, provided they're not just "Cool video" or "First!" :P
Anyway, the 'Curiosity was framed' thing isn't mine, of course; you'll have to ask SisyphusRedeemed whether HE minds... :)
BionicDance 9 months ago
The more attempts I hear to explain "free will" the more convinced I become it is just another vague nonsense term for another simple naturalistic reality that is only complicated when you're trying to square it with magic sky daddy.
unclexbob 9 months ago
Not everything that happens is for a reason, but everything that happens does have a reason.
SmileysRevenge100 9 months ago
@SmileysRevenge100 I'd change that final word to 'cause', personally, just to avoid confusion, but I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment. :)
BionicDance 9 months ago
I remember thinking about this when I was a kid, maybe after I read Foundation. But it seems like a lot of people don't understand what you say when you say the physics of your brain determines your choices, even if you seem to have free will. The Non-Prophets had a notorious free will debate, but I'm not sure that all of them got the point. But if your choices are the result of chemistry, they are the choices you would prefer to make, because of who you are. Ummm, right?
tctheunbeliever 9 months ago
FINALLY, thank you so much! i've been waiting on someone to address this topic. =)
cerealboy7 9 months ago
@cerealboy7 In that case, I find I must apologize; I created the script for this back on February 19th...and then sat on it for AGES. Heh. Sorry about that...but good I got to it eventually, neh? :)
BionicDance 9 months ago
@BionicDance hell, it doesn't matter, thanks. though i really hate (not really hate) how so few people agree with the concept of free will being an illusion, they just don't introspect deep enough.
cerealboy7 9 months ago
@cerealboy7 Well, in all honesty, I quite dislike the notion; I WANT to have free will.
...but what I want doesn't matter; I must bow to the facts. And the facts point to there being no free will.
BionicDance 9 months ago
"You can do what you will, but in any given moment of your life you can will only one definite thing and absolutely nothing other than that one thing." - Arthur Schopenhauer
He also said some outrageous things about women too but lets leave that.
SecularNumanist 9 months ago
This video tries to cover universal events with human conscious and unconscious choices and decisions. Sure if humans were totally free one might imagine us to be conscious minds in the forms of energy like in that tv-series Stargate. Ascendent beings capable of moving, thinking, doing what ever such movable free minds might want to. But we're still free in as many levels that we're not trapped.
A person not in a straight-jacket is still freer than a man in a straight-jacket.
Schneboll 9 months ago
the goal is to constantly take part in the increasing complexity.
musicoutsidethebox 9 months ago
I might add, if the events of the Universe are, indeed, heading toward a specific purpose, the act of it reaching that purpose would probably depend on us not being able to prove it or identify what it is.
lazyperfectionist1 9 months ago
I would say it is an illusion. That's strictly academic though as control is really a paradigm that fits better for utility on this topic. I certainly agree the universe is predetermined and there is no evidence for any invisible hand guiding it.
Sisyphusredeemed did a great video about that different way to look at the free will debate. I made a reply with my take on it, where I talk about why we have this illusion. You might find it interesting.
sonnygll 9 months ago
@CynicalCatharsis
LOL
Wrath0fKhan 9 months ago
hand = 2nd law
determination = eternal oblivion
:)))
Wrath0fKhan 9 months ago
Yep. Free will is an illusion. So is choice. There may be choices available to you, but you only have one brain chemistry that'll only ever make you go one way. Having choices and exercising choice are different concepts.
rhettboy 9 months ago 8
@rhettboy Your last sentence...? Pure gold.
That's a GREAT way to put it.
BionicDance 9 months ago
@BionicDance Why thank you :)
rhettboy 9 months ago
@rhettboy
Stole the words I was going to use. lol Couldn't agree with you more..
afterhumanity333 9 months ago
@rhettboy There you go. Perfectly said. It really is exactly that simple (setting aside that the physics and chemistry of the brain are anything but simple).
polymath7 9 months ago
I've long since stopped defining free will in the sense you address it as... for the obvious reason that you're right. It's not only more enlightening but also more interesting to define it more as something internal, like as the ability to understand why one does what one does, or as the understanding of what one truly ought to do. Free will certainly does exist... it just isn't a physical ability, like in the sense of liberty.
BornInAsphodelMeadow 9 months ago
@BornInAsphodelMeadow I...think you're wrong, there. It most certainly IS a physical ability; it's something our brain does.
But it's still not "free"; we're not as in control as we'd like to believe.
BionicDance 9 months ago
@BionicDance Like I said, it depends how you define it. There is a definition of Free Will that consists only in the ability to do what you want, and the things that can oppose this freedom are obstacles and other people. There are other senses of the word, like the ones that Rousseau and Hegel use, that consist in the ability to make choices you understand (regardless of physical obstacles), and what opposes this is ignorance and intellectual cowardice.
BornInAsphodelMeadow 9 months ago
I'm happy with my will as it is. If it turns out not to be free, then, well, a lack of free will isn't as bad as I might have imagined.
Sines314 9 months ago