Great video, Right on as far as giving the correct verse. However, the church is NOT the bride of christ. Nor is the bride of christ raptured. That is Jezebel Theology, see Rev. 17,18. Vs. 18:7 declare a portion of her teaching! She sits a queen,is no widow and shall see no sorrow. Hence, bride of christ,and see no tribulation. The true BRIDE, comes down from heaven Rev. 19:7-9and ch.21. I agree with everything you said, minus the jezebel/mother church/mother of harlots error.
@KingDavid7771 Thanks for the thumbs up. Just for the record, Rev 19,7-8 clearly indicates that the bride of Christ is made up of the saints who are mentioned throughout the book. The saints constitute those who make up the churches mentioned at the beginning and the end of the book. And the churches are what constitute the church of Christ. Therefore the church of Christ is the bride of Christ. So I cannot see I am in error. :)
@numberourdays Why, thank you for an encouraging comment! :) Having made so many videos showing the error of the pre trib doctrine, I guess there is not much left of this false teaching because of all the holes, although I know of more lame arguments that could be addressed. Right now I'm concentrating on other related issues, like the Antichrist and the great tribulation. God bless you too.
you forgot about the women that was given wings and flew to the wilderness for a time time and half a time? She bore the man child ( jesus) This represents the church or Israel. 12 star sun and moon are mentioned in the old testament refering to Gods People at the time was Isreal but now it is the Believers in Christ. So the woman represent the church and those of israel that follow Christ.
I was raise pre-trib but I do not believe it after studying it. I said I would never make videos about the rapture but I made a 3 part series, closed my channel and re-uploaded in March. Instead of explaining it in a bunch of comments, please view my The Last Days, Tribulation, & The Last Trump series Brother. I'd like your opinion.
@EvangelHeart Nice to see ya here Brother. ;) Although I have to disagree, our previous convos on this subject were an eye-opener when you explained all the differences. That's when I decided to do a Bible study on it and put it in video. I know people will go round & round on this topic so I don't spend time conversing. Either way, the most important thing we have to remember is we have to BE READY like it's going to happen anytime because that will be all that matters at that moment. :D
@ChildofYHWHs There's a HUGE difference between suffering FOR Christ and suffering under God's wrath for sin. POST TRIBERS/Prewrath folks WANT YOU TO THINK THEY ARE THE SAME THING. Their not. Christ took our suffering for sin on the Cross and took our judgment for us and we have made made to pass FROM judgment to life. John 5:24. To believe we will be taken through is to make the Cross of non effect. I do not believe in a Rapture because I am afraid to suffer, its because its God word ;-)
I believe we have already entered the trib, but do believe the church will be removed from most of it. I do not believe in the SATANIC POST TRIB LIE that the reason why I believe we will not be here is because I am afraid to suffer. LIE! There's a HUGE difference between suffering FOR Christ and suffering under God's wrath for sin. POST TRIBERS WANT YOU TO THINK THEY ARE THE SAME THING! Their not. Christ took our suffering for sin on the Cross and we have made made to pass FROM judgment to life
Question: If we are to go through the tribulation and Christ comes back to remove His believers and destroys the unbelievers, then who is LEFT TO POPULATE the Earth during the 1000 years?? POST TRIBULATION=FAIL!!!!
@ChildofYHWHs I too used to be pre-tib. That was due to me reading end-time books about the Bible in my teens, and then reading the Bible through the lens of what I had been exposed to in these other books! I have since learnt that we are to read books about the Bible through the lens of the Bible itself. We are to test all things and hold fast to what is good.
This videos is sooooo well done. Thank you for being so in depth and accurate with your scriptures. There are so many passgaes that prove a post trib rapture, and not ONE that proves a pre trib. Thank you for posting this.
@Musicman81Indy - And thank you for watching! Yes, second coming passages left in context are clearly post-trib. The only way you can make these passages pre-trib is to lift them out of context, i.e. isolate them, and thereby give them another meaning. It would be helpful if our pre-trib friends would remember there were no chapter and verse divisions in the Bible until many centuries after the Bible was complete.
@arovir Yes, you are soooo right. We must read the WHOLE Bible in order to get the BIG picture. But the pre trib idea is proven wrong simply by looking at what Jesus did NOT say. In Matthew 24, He only mentioned one coming. Not two. He never said, "Hey guys, I'll be back in the clouds to take you all away, then we'll hang out in heaven for 7 years, and then I'll lead you all back here again. Matthew 24 is clear. He only comes once. I'm right with you. Thanks.
@Musicman81Indy Yes, every end-time passage about Christ's return - when scrutinized - NEVER affirms the fanciful "doctrine" of pre-trib. You know, I jumped right into the conversation you were having when YT notified me of the comment you got with all those blessed Scriptures in it. Having affirmed all the Scriptures (and not the way they are used by the commentator) I should have ended by saying: I'm sure Musicman81Indy agrees with me. (You *are* on my Excellent End-Time Education Playlist!)
@Musicman81Indy U r sooo wrong! 1Thes5:9For God hath *not appointed us to wrath*,but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,Rev3:10Bcause thou hast kept the word of my patience,I also will keep thee *from* the hour of temptation.Also-Rev 2:10,4:1-11,5:1-14,22:12,Luke21:34-36,1Cor15:50-53,2Cor4:14,5:1-5,Eph4:30,5:32,Phil1:6,10,2:16,3:9-11;Col3:4;1Thess1:10,2:19-20,3:13,4:13-18,5:9-10,5:23;1Tim6:14-15;2Tim4:8Heb10:25,37,11:35;James1:12,1Peter1:5,7,13,5:4,2Peter1:11;1John 3:2-3;2John1:8
@hiyosilver100 Thank you for posting all these wonderful Scripture passages! NONE of them speak of a pre-trib journey of the church to heaven. They ALL testify of the second coming of Christ after the great tribulation when He will gather together all those who love Him as He is about to take control of this planet. Again, thank you! :))
@hiyosilver100 "Keeping" us from the hour of temptation doesn't mean we are totally removed off the planet. God "kept" the Israelites from the plagues of Egypt without removing them from the earth. If the pre trib view was right, then why didn't Jesus say He would be coming back TWICE is Matthew 24? If the disciples all had to go through their own hardships, and give their lives for the faith, what makes you think God will let US off the hook without having to suffer tribulation?
@Musicman81Indy When the circus comes to town and has a parade, does that mean the circus came to town twice? Open the Book and open your mind. There are two events and ONE second coming! The Book is clear that Jesus comes in the clouds AND puts his foot down on the rock 7 years later! What makes me think so? Because the Bible SAYS SO!
@hiyosilver100 Well I'll tell ya this. When you start seeing things like Daniel 9:27 being fulfilled, (which by the way is THIS September,) and then you start seeing darkness over the entire planet, and later the mark of the beast, (RFID chip,) you will realize that something is wrong with your theology. The pre trib rapture was never taught by Jesus, nor His disciples. I'm sorry you do not have eyes to see nor ears to hear.
@hiyosilver100 The pre trib idea is proven wrong simply by looking at what Jesus did NOT say. In Matthew 24, He only mentioned one coming. Not two. He never said, "Hey guys, I'll be back in the clouds to take you all away, then we'll hang out in heaven for 7 years, and then I'll lead you all back here again." Matthew 24 is clear. He only comes once. Not twice.
@hiyosilver100 Also, the "wrath" that we are not appointed to is the wrath of the Father at the END of the tribulation, when He pours out His final judgment on the earth. We WILL be out of here when THAT happens. But things like the mark of the beast, and the ruling authority of the anti christ, THAT is NOT the wrath of God. We will go through the tribulation as a test of our faith, just as the disciples all went through their own tests.
@hiyosilver100 One more thing. If the disciples, (who by the way were 10 times closer to God than any of US could ever dream of being,) had to go through trials and tribulations, hang on crosses, be dragged behind horses, be sawed in two, etc, then what makes you think today's church, (who for the most part is luke warm and lazy) will get a free ticket out of here without any persecution or tribulation what so ever? The church of 2011 NEEDS the tribulation to wake them up and get right with God
In order for the elders in Rev 4:4 to have white robes and crowns means they have physical bodies to put them on.
Thus they were raptured and received their new bodies in 1 Cor 15:50-55 and 1 Thes 4:13;18. All in heaven now are SPIRIT and will receive their new bodies upon the rapture.
In order to have crowns they had to receive their rewards at the Bema seat of Christ. In Rev 5:9-10 the point is made very clear. They Are the REDEEMED of Luke 21:28 and are from every tribe tongue and nation
@Noffy1111 - Consider the martyrs in Rev 6. They are given white robes before being resurrected. Thus the elders' robes do not prove they have been resurrected/raptured to heaven. Consider also the 10 horns of Rev 13. They have crowns which are not heavenly rewards. Having a crown doesn’t necessarily mean having been resurrected/raptured. It can mean being in a position of authority.
Your comment does not dismantle anything. There is no resurrection/rapture until late in the book of Rev.
Ok lets consider the martyrs and where they are located. They are under the alter and yet they are still in heaven. Now what we need to find out is there anything different about them? They are told to wait until there numbers are complete. What I conclude is that they are in some form of flesh in some place that is a place of holding in heaven. May I ask, have you ever studied the Jewish harvest cycle?
@Noffy1111 - I find no evidence that the martyrs of Rev 6 are "in some form of flesh". They are non-resurrected saints in heaven, and appear in spirit form. They are cognizant and wear celestial clothing awaiting their resurrection and their final eternal clothing.
@arovir Ok then lets consider that they were given robes and it says nothing about them wearing them.
So then this would have to be still a part of the resurrection or harvest that Christ, first fruits are a part of according to the Jewish harvest cycle.
If they receive their new bodies when their numbers are complete then so be it.
This still does not disprove the pre trib rapture (general harvest) and Rev 5:9 They are called the REDEEMED from every kindred, people tongue and nation.
@Noffy1111 - I cannot see the point of the martyrs receiving whites robes without proceeding to wear them! I don't think they sat on them while they waited!
Greek scholars such as Lachmann, Tischendorf, Alford, Westcott, Hort and Wordsworth justify the omission of "us" in "redeemed us to God" in Rev 5:9. This is brought out in very many recent translations. Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage 248-258 AD and Fulgentius Bishop in North Africa 508-533 AD are said to have cited these passages without "us".
Even though the a harvest is considered a one time even by secular people it is not. If you study the Jewish harvest you will see something entirely different. 1st the early ripe fruit is harvested and taken by the priest as a wave offering to God. Then a bit later when the harvest is ready the general harvest in which the majority is harvested. But also note that the four corners are left for gleanings. The whole process may take a month or more. And yet, it is one harvest.
@Noffy1111 - The early ripe fruit which becomes a wave offering to God is an illustration of Christ's resurrection. Paul calls Him "the first fruits of those who are asleep". The general harvest seems to be pictured in Rev 14:14ff; here the harvest motif is prominent. The gleanings could be those from the "four corners" of the earth who survive the calamities of the last days and are allowed into the kingdom of Christ on account of treating Christ's brethren well in their affliction (Matt 25).
@arovir Correct and the rapture is actually a RESURRECTION. Those in heaven now will be brought back WITH Christ and then rejoined with their new glorified bodies. THEN, we who are alive will be CHANGED.
Those in heaven as you yourself stated are in spirit form until this event happens. The general harvest is 1st Thes 4:13-18, 1 Cor 16:50-55.
Luke 31:28 looking for their REDEMPTION are the REDEEMED of Rev 5:9-10 PERIOD! Rev 5:9-10 is BEFORE the trib in 6:1
@Noffy1111 - It's 1 Cor 15, not 16, and Luke 21, not 31.
Remember - redemption is past spiritually speaking - 1 Pet 1:18f. It is future physically speaking - Rom 8:23. Rev 5:9-10 is a song sung in heaven by 24 elders about saints on earth who have been redeemed spiritually, and are awaiting the redemption of their bodies at the appearance of Christ. Christ appears after the tribulation, according to Christ Himself (Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 etc.).
What I can only reason out is that there is a place of holding in heaven where people will receive their bodies but are not yet a part of the whole (waiting for their numbers to be complete). This is just like us now, here on earth waiting for our numbers to be complete before the rapture.
While I do believe there is metaphor in revelation I also believe it stands for something. the ten horns still mean world leaders that form the new world order. This is forming now.
I guess the brunt if my point is this. The language in Luke 21:29 is very specific, "When you see these things look up for your REDEMPTION draws neigh" and then in Rev 4:4 and 5:9-10 it is also specific they are the REDEEMED with crowns and robes. No one receives a crown before the bema seat of Christ. Those that have died in Christ from His death on are in heaven eagerly awaiting the resurrection because they are wanting their new glorified bodies that they will receive.
@Noffy1111 - Luke 21:28 says: "But when THESE THINGS begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your REDEMPTION is drawing near." What things? Let's back up a few verses (25-27):
"There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth... roaring of the sea and the waves... the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But when THESE THINGS begin to..."
@arovir Luke 21:28 does not say when you see the END of these things! Luke 21:28 says when you see the BEGINNING of these things. If it were post trib you would see it say the ENDING of these things and not the BEGINNING of them.
If you read it literally it means, you SEE the ground work being set up or BEGINNING OF. The bible is very clear on this in Rev 5:9-10 in that the REDEEMED of all kindred, people, tongues and nations are in heaven PRIOR to Rev 6:1.
@Noffy1111 - Luke 21:28 says: "But when THESE THINGS begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing NEAR." It doesn't say we will only see the beginning. That's when the redemption (of our bodies Rom 8:23) is drawing near. Three verses later: "So you also, when YOU see THESE THINGS happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is NEAR." Notice - "these things" and "near". We will also see the end of the things Jesus spoke of before He comes back.
@Noffy11119 - The text of Rev 5:9-10 in KJV is rendered with "us" "us" and "we" in what the 24 elders sing. Seventeen other translations I know of say "men/people" "them" and "they". The textual majority shows the 24 elders sing of others, not themselves. In Rev 14:3 the 24 elders are placed together with the 4 living creatures, and set apart from those "who were redeemed from the earth" whose song the elders could not learn. The 24 elders seem to be heavenly elders, not 24 men from earth.
@Noffy1111 - No, 17 translations say the 24 elders sing of others who are redeemed (i.e. bought by the Blood) from all over the world. The elders have a heavenly service to perform bringing the prayers of the saints (i.e. the redeemed) before God. The redeemed saints pray from the earth. Notice there are 24 elders in heaven. One of them talks to the apostle John. This shows they are individuals - 24 individuals, no more.
I had never even heard of some of these pre-trib beliefs, so this is very educational for me! I especially appreciate your explanation of the armies in heaven (angels) & the fact that we will be "like the angels." I have a dear friend who is hung up on just this verse in Revelation. I cannot get him to look at the bigger picture, which is you cannot have a rapture prior to the resurrection. The dead are raised, THEN we which are alive and remain will be caught up together with them... GREAT job!
@Jimvesterstallone - There are MANY who are hung up about the armies in heaven being the bride (concerning apparel). Yes, we need to stand back to view the entire picture, yet even if we scrutinize the details of the brush marks on the vast canvas, it all points to one thing - it's post-trib!!!
@Jimvesterstallone - There are MANY who are hung up about the armies in heaven being the bride (concerning apparel). Yes, we need to stand back to view the entire picture, yet even if we scrutinize the details of the brush marks on the vast canvas, it all points to one thing - it's post-trib!!!
Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and WHO SHALL DECLARE his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image *, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Neither of us can change what is going to happen, and time will surely tell who is right. All I can say is that I am confident in what I believe the scriptures say. I suggest you daily ask God to reveal the Bible to you by His Holy Spirit as you read. Only He can really give sight to the eyes of your understanding in all areas, not just eschatology. I too beseech the blessings of God on you with peace in our Savior.
The main message of Revelation is the second coming of Jesus that He Himself spoke of and all the NT writers wrote of. This hasn't happened yet. We must remember that with the Lord a thousand years is as one day 2 Pet 3:8. "Shortly" in God's eyes could be a couple of days. For us this would be 2000 years. The verses after Matt 16:28 describe the transfiguration of Christ a week later. This sequence of Christ speaking of the coming Kingdom and transfig. is repeated in Mark 9:1f and (cont...).
Luk 9:27f. Peter referred to the transfig. in 2 Pet 1:16-18. He says here that on the mountain he witnessed the "majesty" of Christ and connects this to "the power and coming of our Lord Jesus". He received a preview of the glory of Christ in His second coming. This is what Jesus was referring to when he said "some standing here will not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming" Matt 16:28; "...some standing here will not taste death till they see the Kingdom of God" Mark 9:1/Luke 9:27.
I agree wholeheartedly with the first sentence. However Spiritual does not mean non-physical. E.g. In the resurrection, which happens at Christ's second coming, believers receive "a spiritual body" 1 Cor 15:44. Phil 3:21 says our body will be "conformed" to Christ's "glorious body". He said to His disciples after His resurrection "Handle me", I "have flesh and bones" Luk 24:39. Christ will return physically in the same "manner" as He ascended according to the two angels in Acts 1 - unfulfilled.
Truly, I have no problems believing the Bible. Since the Bible predicted hundreds of years beforehand that Jesus would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey, and that proved to be literal, then I see no problem with Jesus riding on a literal white horse in the future.
I could have used the term "beast" from the book, but most refer to him as the Antichrist. Tell me, were two prophets killed in Jerusalem and raised after 3 days and ascend to heaven in the first century? Did the Euphrates river dry up in the first century? Was Babylon destroyed in the first century? Did Christ descend from heaven on a white horse with the armies of heaven and capture the beast and the false prophet and put them in the lake of fire in the first century? Please read Rev. again!!
I too believe that the harvest is when Jesus gathers those who are HIS.. (the children of the Kingdom "wheat" are placed into Jesus' barn Matt 13:30 & 38) The reapers are the angels referenced in Matt 13:30 & 39
God Bless you as you serve Jesus by teaching the truths of the Word of God!
You made so many connections in one video. I don't know how you put so much into ONE. This is excellent detective work exposing the resurrection/rapture in the Revelation. You brought so much to light and did it so clearly. Thank you!
I also believe that the believers are reaped and become a harvest of souls to meet Jesus who is the Lord of the harvest. This will happen when Jesus comes with his crowd of reaper angels!
Great video, Right on as far as giving the correct verse. However, the church is NOT the bride of christ. Nor is the bride of christ raptured. That is Jezebel Theology, see Rev. 17,18. Vs. 18:7 declare a portion of her teaching! She sits a queen,is no widow and shall see no sorrow. Hence, bride of christ,and see no tribulation. The true BRIDE, comes down from heaven Rev. 19:7-9and ch.21. I agree with everything you said, minus the jezebel/mother church/mother of harlots error.
KingDavid7771 2 months ago
@KingDavid7771 Thanks for the thumbs up. Just for the record, Rev 19,7-8 clearly indicates that the bride of Christ is made up of the saints who are mentioned throughout the book. The saints constitute those who make up the churches mentioned at the beginning and the end of the book. And the churches are what constitute the church of Christ. Therefore the church of Christ is the bride of Christ. So I cannot see I am in error. :)
arovir 2 months ago
Excellent!! Keep putting holes in the false doctrine of pre trib. thanks for posting and God bless.
numberourdays 3 months ago
@numberourdays Why, thank you for an encouraging comment! :) Having made so many videos showing the error of the pre trib doctrine, I guess there is not much left of this false teaching because of all the holes, although I know of more lame arguments that could be addressed. Right now I'm concentrating on other related issues, like the Antichrist and the great tribulation. God bless you too.
arovir 3 months ago
you forgot about the women that was given wings and flew to the wilderness for a time time and half a time? She bore the man child ( jesus) This represents the church or Israel. 12 star sun and moon are mentioned in the old testament refering to Gods People at the time was Isreal but now it is the Believers in Christ. So the woman represent the church and those of israel that follow Christ.
george7981 6 months ago
@george7981 I didn't forget! :) When I made the video the time limit was under 11 minutes. Managed it in 10:44.
arovir 6 months ago
I was raise pre-trib but I do not believe it after studying it. I said I would never make videos about the rapture but I made a 3 part series, closed my channel and re-uploaded in March. Instead of explaining it in a bunch of comments, please view my The Last Days, Tribulation, & The Last Trump series Brother. I'd like your opinion.
Lacybunny 7 months ago
We will be taken OUT OF the tribulation, not taken through.
EvangelHeart 7 months ago in playlist End Times
@EvangelHeart Nice to see ya here Brother. ;) Although I have to disagree, our previous convos on this subject were an eye-opener when you explained all the differences. That's when I decided to do a Bible study on it and put it in video. I know people will go round & round on this topic so I don't spend time conversing. Either way, the most important thing we have to remember is we have to BE READY like it's going to happen anytime because that will be all that matters at that moment. :D
Lacybunny 7 months ago
@ChildofYHWHs There's a HUGE difference between suffering FOR Christ and suffering under God's wrath for sin. POST TRIBERS/Prewrath folks WANT YOU TO THINK THEY ARE THE SAME THING. Their not. Christ took our suffering for sin on the Cross and took our judgment for us and we have made made to pass FROM judgment to life. John 5:24. To believe we will be taken through is to make the Cross of non effect. I do not believe in a Rapture because I am afraid to suffer, its because its God word ;-)
EvangelHeart 7 months ago in playlist End Times
I believe we have already entered the trib, but do believe the church will be removed from most of it. I do not believe in the SATANIC POST TRIB LIE that the reason why I believe we will not be here is because I am afraid to suffer. LIE! There's a HUGE difference between suffering FOR Christ and suffering under God's wrath for sin. POST TRIBERS WANT YOU TO THINK THEY ARE THE SAME THING! Their not. Christ took our suffering for sin on the Cross and we have made made to pass FROM judgment to life
EvangelHeart 7 months ago in playlist End Times
Question: If we are to go through the tribulation and Christ comes back to remove His believers and destroys the unbelievers, then who is LEFT TO POPULATE the Earth during the 1000 years?? POST TRIBULATION=FAIL!!!!
EvangelHeart 7 months ago in playlist End Times
@ChildofYHWHs I too used to be pre-tib. That was due to me reading end-time books about the Bible in my teens, and then reading the Bible through the lens of what I had been exposed to in these other books! I have since learnt that we are to read books about the Bible through the lens of the Bible itself. We are to test all things and hold fast to what is good.
Thank you for a good comment! :)
arovir 7 months ago
revelation chapter 14 , 1st harvest fit the description of rapture perfectly. at the last trump , with voice of arch angel.
keeyk118b 8 months ago
Fairy tale... all of it..
zignario 8 months ago
Its all interpretation, like much of the bible.
estudmn 9 months ago
This videos is sooooo well done. Thank you for being so in depth and accurate with your scriptures. There are so many passgaes that prove a post trib rapture, and not ONE that proves a pre trib. Thank you for posting this.
Musicman81Indy 1 year ago
@Musicman81Indy - And thank you for watching! Yes, second coming passages left in context are clearly post-trib. The only way you can make these passages pre-trib is to lift them out of context, i.e. isolate them, and thereby give them another meaning. It would be helpful if our pre-trib friends would remember there were no chapter and verse divisions in the Bible until many centuries after the Bible was complete.
arovir 1 year ago
@arovir Yes, you are soooo right. We must read the WHOLE Bible in order to get the BIG picture. But the pre trib idea is proven wrong simply by looking at what Jesus did NOT say. In Matthew 24, He only mentioned one coming. Not two. He never said, "Hey guys, I'll be back in the clouds to take you all away, then we'll hang out in heaven for 7 years, and then I'll lead you all back here again. Matthew 24 is clear. He only comes once. I'm right with you. Thanks.
Musicman81Indy 7 months ago
@Musicman81Indy Yes, every end-time passage about Christ's return - when scrutinized - NEVER affirms the fanciful "doctrine" of pre-trib. You know, I jumped right into the conversation you were having when YT notified me of the comment you got with all those blessed Scriptures in it. Having affirmed all the Scriptures (and not the way they are used by the commentator) I should have ended by saying: I'm sure Musicman81Indy agrees with me. (You *are* on my Excellent End-Time Education Playlist!)
arovir 7 months ago
@Musicman81Indy U r sooo wrong! 1Thes5:9For God hath *not appointed us to wrath*,but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,Rev3:10Bcause thou hast kept the word of my patience,I also will keep thee *from* the hour of temptation.Also-Rev 2:10,4:1-11,5:1-14,22:12,Luke21:34-36,1Cor15:50-53,2Cor4:14,5:1-5,Eph4:30,5:32,Phil1:6,10,2:16,3:9-11;Col3:4;1Thess1:10,2:19-20,3:13,4:13-18,5:9-10,5:23;1Tim6:14-15;2Tim4:8Heb10:25,37,11:35;James1:12,1Peter1:5,7,13,5:4,2Peter1:11;1John 3:2-3;2John1:8
hiyosilver100 7 months ago
@hiyosilver100 Thank you for posting all these wonderful Scripture passages! NONE of them speak of a pre-trib journey of the church to heaven. They ALL testify of the second coming of Christ after the great tribulation when He will gather together all those who love Him as He is about to take control of this planet. Again, thank you! :))
arovir 7 months ago
@hiyosilver100 "Keeping" us from the hour of temptation doesn't mean we are totally removed off the planet. God "kept" the Israelites from the plagues of Egypt without removing them from the earth. If the pre trib view was right, then why didn't Jesus say He would be coming back TWICE is Matthew 24? If the disciples all had to go through their own hardships, and give their lives for the faith, what makes you think God will let US off the hook without having to suffer tribulation?
Musicman81Indy 7 months ago
@Musicman81Indy When the circus comes to town and has a parade, does that mean the circus came to town twice? Open the Book and open your mind. There are two events and ONE second coming! The Book is clear that Jesus comes in the clouds AND puts his foot down on the rock 7 years later! What makes me think so? Because the Bible SAYS SO!
hiyosilver100 7 months ago
@hiyosilver100 Well I'll tell ya this. When you start seeing things like Daniel 9:27 being fulfilled, (which by the way is THIS September,) and then you start seeing darkness over the entire planet, and later the mark of the beast, (RFID chip,) you will realize that something is wrong with your theology. The pre trib rapture was never taught by Jesus, nor His disciples. I'm sorry you do not have eyes to see nor ears to hear.
Musicman81Indy 7 months ago
@hiyosilver100 The pre trib idea is proven wrong simply by looking at what Jesus did NOT say. In Matthew 24, He only mentioned one coming. Not two. He never said, "Hey guys, I'll be back in the clouds to take you all away, then we'll hang out in heaven for 7 years, and then I'll lead you all back here again." Matthew 24 is clear. He only comes once. Not twice.
Musicman81Indy 7 months ago
@hiyosilver100 Also, the "wrath" that we are not appointed to is the wrath of the Father at the END of the tribulation, when He pours out His final judgment on the earth. We WILL be out of here when THAT happens. But things like the mark of the beast, and the ruling authority of the anti christ, THAT is NOT the wrath of God. We will go through the tribulation as a test of our faith, just as the disciples all went through their own tests.
Musicman81Indy 7 months ago
@hiyosilver100 One more thing. If the disciples, (who by the way were 10 times closer to God than any of US could ever dream of being,) had to go through trials and tribulations, hang on crosses, be dragged behind horses, be sawed in two, etc, then what makes you think today's church, (who for the most part is luke warm and lazy) will get a free ticket out of here without any persecution or tribulation what so ever? The church of 2011 NEEDS the tribulation to wake them up and get right with God
Musicman81Indy 7 months ago
In order for the elders in Rev 4:4 to have white robes and crowns means they have physical bodies to put them on.
Thus they were raptured and received their new bodies in 1 Cor 15:50-55 and 1 Thes 4:13;18. All in heaven now are SPIRIT and will receive their new bodies upon the rapture.
In order to have crowns they had to receive their rewards at the Bema seat of Christ. In Rev 5:9-10 the point is made very clear. They Are the REDEEMED of Luke 21:28 and are from every tribe tongue and nation
Noffy1111 1 year ago
@Noffy1111 - Consider the martyrs in Rev 6. They are given white robes before being resurrected. Thus the elders' robes do not prove they have been resurrected/raptured to heaven. Consider also the 10 horns of Rev 13. They have crowns which are not heavenly rewards. Having a crown doesn’t necessarily mean having been resurrected/raptured. It can mean being in a position of authority.
Your comment does not dismantle anything. There is no resurrection/rapture until late in the book of Rev.
arovir 1 year ago
@arovir PART 1
Ok lets consider the martyrs and where they are located. They are under the alter and yet they are still in heaven. Now what we need to find out is there anything different about them? They are told to wait until there numbers are complete. What I conclude is that they are in some form of flesh in some place that is a place of holding in heaven. May I ask, have you ever studied the Jewish harvest cycle?
Noffy1111 1 year ago
@Noffy1111 - I find no evidence that the martyrs of Rev 6 are "in some form of flesh". They are non-resurrected saints in heaven, and appear in spirit form. They are cognizant and wear celestial clothing awaiting their resurrection and their final eternal clothing.
Yes, I have studied the Jewish harvest cycle.
arovir 1 year ago
@arovir Ok then lets consider that they were given robes and it says nothing about them wearing them.
So then this would have to be still a part of the resurrection or harvest that Christ, first fruits are a part of according to the Jewish harvest cycle.
If they receive their new bodies when their numbers are complete then so be it.
This still does not disprove the pre trib rapture (general harvest) and Rev 5:9 They are called the REDEEMED from every kindred, people tongue and nation.
Noffy1111 1 year ago
@Noffy1111 - I cannot see the point of the martyrs receiving whites robes without proceeding to wear them! I don't think they sat on them while they waited!
Greek scholars such as Lachmann, Tischendorf, Alford, Westcott, Hort and Wordsworth justify the omission of "us" in "redeemed us to God" in Rev 5:9. This is brought out in very many recent translations. Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage 248-258 AD and Fulgentius Bishop in North Africa 508-533 AD are said to have cited these passages without "us".
arovir 1 year ago
@arovir PART 2
Even though the a harvest is considered a one time even by secular people it is not. If you study the Jewish harvest you will see something entirely different. 1st the early ripe fruit is harvested and taken by the priest as a wave offering to God. Then a bit later when the harvest is ready the general harvest in which the majority is harvested. But also note that the four corners are left for gleanings. The whole process may take a month or more. And yet, it is one harvest.
Noffy1111 1 year ago
@Noffy1111 - The early ripe fruit which becomes a wave offering to God is an illustration of Christ's resurrection. Paul calls Him "the first fruits of those who are asleep". The general harvest seems to be pictured in Rev 14:14ff; here the harvest motif is prominent. The gleanings could be those from the "four corners" of the earth who survive the calamities of the last days and are allowed into the kingdom of Christ on account of treating Christ's brethren well in their affliction (Matt 25).
arovir 1 year ago
@arovir Correct and the rapture is actually a RESURRECTION. Those in heaven now will be brought back WITH Christ and then rejoined with their new glorified bodies. THEN, we who are alive will be CHANGED.
Those in heaven as you yourself stated are in spirit form until this event happens. The general harvest is 1st Thes 4:13-18, 1 Cor 16:50-55.
Luke 31:28 looking for their REDEMPTION are the REDEEMED of Rev 5:9-10 PERIOD! Rev 5:9-10 is BEFORE the trib in 6:1
1 harvest 3 stages
Noffy1111 1 year ago
@Noffy1111 - It's 1 Cor 15, not 16, and Luke 21, not 31.
Remember - redemption is past spiritually speaking - 1 Pet 1:18f. It is future physically speaking - Rom 8:23. Rev 5:9-10 is a song sung in heaven by 24 elders about saints on earth who have been redeemed spiritually, and are awaiting the redemption of their bodies at the appearance of Christ. Christ appears after the tribulation, according to Christ Himself (Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 etc.).
arovir 1 year ago
@arovir PART 3
What I can only reason out is that there is a place of holding in heaven where people will receive their bodies but are not yet a part of the whole (waiting for their numbers to be complete). This is just like us now, here on earth waiting for our numbers to be complete before the rapture.
While I do believe there is metaphor in revelation I also believe it stands for something. the ten horns still mean world leaders that form the new world order. This is forming now.
Noffy1111 1 year ago
@arovir Part 5
I guess the brunt if my point is this. The language in Luke 21:29 is very specific, "When you see these things look up for your REDEMPTION draws neigh" and then in Rev 4:4 and 5:9-10 it is also specific they are the REDEEMED with crowns and robes. No one receives a crown before the bema seat of Christ. Those that have died in Christ from His death on are in heaven eagerly awaiting the resurrection because they are wanting their new glorified bodies that they will receive.
Noffy1111 1 year ago
@Noffy1111 - Luke 21:28 says: "But when THESE THINGS begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your REDEMPTION is drawing near." What things? Let's back up a few verses (25-27):
"There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth... roaring of the sea and the waves... the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But when THESE THINGS begin to..."
Redemption is clearly POST-trib!
arovir 1 year ago
@arovir Luke 21:28 does not say when you see the END of these things! Luke 21:28 says when you see the BEGINNING of these things. If it were post trib you would see it say the ENDING of these things and not the BEGINNING of them.
If you read it literally it means, you SEE the ground work being set up or BEGINNING OF. The bible is very clear on this in Rev 5:9-10 in that the REDEEMED of all kindred, people, tongues and nations are in heaven PRIOR to Rev 6:1.
Noffy1111 1 year ago
@Noffy1111 - Luke 21:28 says: "But when THESE THINGS begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing NEAR." It doesn't say we will only see the beginning. That's when the redemption (of our bodies Rom 8:23) is drawing near. Three verses later: "So you also, when YOU see THESE THINGS happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is NEAR." Notice - "these things" and "near". We will also see the end of the things Jesus spoke of before He comes back.
arovir 1 year ago
@arovir Then why are they called the REDEEMED from every tongue, kindred, people and nation? Why are they called priests and kings?
I think that is very SPECIFIC don't you? There is no mystery John tells you exactly who they are and he received this from Christ.
Noffy1111 1 year ago
@Noffy11119 - The text of Rev 5:9-10 in KJV is rendered with "us" "us" and "we" in what the 24 elders sing. Seventeen other translations I know of say "men/people" "them" and "they". The textual majority shows the 24 elders sing of others, not themselves. In Rev 14:3 the 24 elders are placed together with the 4 living creatures, and set apart from those "who were redeemed from the earth" whose song the elders could not learn. The 24 elders seem to be heavenly elders, not 24 men from earth.
arovir 1 year ago
@arovir What you just said makes no sense at all. They are from every kindred, people, tongue, nation ion earth.
They are not separate from believers 'IE' redeemed, they are a part of the REDEEMED and say as much.
Noffy1111 1 year ago
@Noffy1111 - No, 17 translations say the 24 elders sing of others who are redeemed (i.e. bought by the Blood) from all over the world. The elders have a heavenly service to perform bringing the prayers of the saints (i.e. the redeemed) before God. The redeemed saints pray from the earth. Notice there are 24 elders in heaven. One of them talks to the apostle John. This shows they are individuals - 24 individuals, no more.
arovir 1 year ago
I had never even heard of some of these pre-trib beliefs, so this is very educational for me! I especially appreciate your explanation of the armies in heaven (angels) & the fact that we will be "like the angels." I have a dear friend who is hung up on just this verse in Revelation. I cannot get him to look at the bigger picture, which is you cannot have a rapture prior to the resurrection. The dead are raised, THEN we which are alive and remain will be caught up together with them... GREAT job!
Jimvesterstallone 1 year ago
@Jimvesterstallone - There are MANY who are hung up about the armies in heaven being the bride (concerning apparel). Yes, we need to stand back to view the entire picture, yet even if we scrutinize the details of the brush marks on the vast canvas, it all points to one thing - it's post-trib!!!
arovir 1 year ago
@Jimvesterstallone - There are MANY who are hung up about the armies in heaven being the bride (concerning apparel). Yes, we need to stand back to view the entire picture, yet even if we scrutinize the details of the brush marks on the vast canvas, it all points to one thing - it's post-trib!!!
arovir 1 year ago
Amen, arovir! Only God can reveal this kind of knowledge.
romienomie 2 years ago
Well, it's been there in the book all the time! If we read it without any preconcieved ideas then it's plain to see. Thank you for you viewing!
arovir 2 years ago
john=john.
1john1423 2 years ago
53:8
Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and WHO SHALL DECLARE his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
1john1423 2 years ago
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
1john1423 2 years ago
Rev 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image *, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
1john1423 2 years ago
Mt 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
1john1423 2 years ago
Neither of us can change what is going to happen, and time will surely tell who is right. All I can say is that I am confident in what I believe the scriptures say. I suggest you daily ask God to reveal the Bible to you by His Holy Spirit as you read. Only He can really give sight to the eyes of your understanding in all areas, not just eschatology. I too beseech the blessings of God on you with peace in our Savior.
arovir 2 years ago
The main message of Revelation is the second coming of Jesus that He Himself spoke of and all the NT writers wrote of. This hasn't happened yet. We must remember that with the Lord a thousand years is as one day 2 Pet 3:8. "Shortly" in God's eyes could be a couple of days. For us this would be 2000 years. The verses after Matt 16:28 describe the transfiguration of Christ a week later. This sequence of Christ speaking of the coming Kingdom and transfig. is repeated in Mark 9:1f and (cont...).
arovir 2 years ago
Luk 9:27f. Peter referred to the transfig. in 2 Pet 1:16-18. He says here that on the mountain he witnessed the "majesty" of Christ and connects this to "the power and coming of our Lord Jesus". He received a preview of the glory of Christ in His second coming. This is what Jesus was referring to when he said "some standing here will not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming" Matt 16:28; "...some standing here will not taste death till they see the Kingdom of God" Mark 9:1/Luke 9:27.
arovir 2 years ago
I agree wholeheartedly with the first sentence. However Spiritual does not mean non-physical. E.g. In the resurrection, which happens at Christ's second coming, believers receive "a spiritual body" 1 Cor 15:44. Phil 3:21 says our body will be "conformed" to Christ's "glorious body". He said to His disciples after His resurrection "Handle me", I "have flesh and bones" Luk 24:39. Christ will return physically in the same "manner" as He ascended according to the two angels in Acts 1 - unfulfilled.
arovir 2 years ago
Truly, I have no problems believing the Bible. Since the Bible predicted hundreds of years beforehand that Jesus would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey, and that proved to be literal, then I see no problem with Jesus riding on a literal white horse in the future.
arovir 2 years ago
I could have used the term "beast" from the book, but most refer to him as the Antichrist. Tell me, were two prophets killed in Jerusalem and raised after 3 days and ascend to heaven in the first century? Did the Euphrates river dry up in the first century? Was Babylon destroyed in the first century? Did Christ descend from heaven on a white horse with the armies of heaven and capture the beast and the false prophet and put them in the lake of fire in the first century? Please read Rev. again!!
arovir 2 years ago
I too believe that the harvest is when Jesus gathers those who are HIS.. (the children of the Kingdom "wheat" are placed into Jesus' barn Matt 13:30 & 38) The reapers are the angels referenced in Matt 13:30 & 39
God Bless you as you serve Jesus by teaching the truths of the Word of God!
InHISWord2 2 years ago 2
Again this is truly god inspired.And proof of truth and gods spirit works through people.Powerful
EastEndWatcher 2 years ago 2
excellent
Itsmeweelynn 2 years ago 2
well done
draconusrex33 2 years ago 2
You made so many connections in one video. I don't know how you put so much into ONE. This is excellent detective work exposing the resurrection/rapture in the Revelation. You brought so much to light and did it so clearly. Thank you!
boltingpuppies 2 years ago 3
I also believe that the believers are reaped and become a harvest of souls to meet Jesus who is the Lord of the harvest. This will happen when Jesus comes with his crowd of reaper angels!
michaellarsadams 2 years ago