MSU Bears for Life: Students vandalize "Graveyard of the Innocents" #1

[mindsquint]

As for making an educated judgment, I can only speak to the facts that have been presented to me on either side. I have yet to be presented with anything from the offending group that is a convincing justification for their vandalism. The "tearing them down is my freedom of speech" claim is the closest to a rational justification that I've heard. That really only applies to any counter rallying they may have organized, not to the destruction of property or suppression of opposing views.

[mindsquint]

I must admit that I have entertained the suspicion of a set up - the Bears for Life do seem to be the only ones doing everything right. Almost suspiciously so. Still, the girl they confronted on the issue of stomping on the display admitted that she had done so and attempted to justify it as her freedom of speech. That is where much of my issue is coming from. As for whether or not, this was a set up, I agree that warrants investigation as well.

[moretap]

Destroying others displays is a problem, but I think the bigger deal is there were 4000 crosses. That's a lot of dead babies per day.

[ajt575s]

I just can't understand what the big deal is here. These students probably had no idea what this "display" even was. I saw the display during the daytime--the popsicle crosses were very small and possibly hard to see in the dark. Plus, college students tend to destroy things for fun, not caring what the things are. Why is this little incident being taken so seriously? It's not exactly a religious war or anything. Get a life and get over it already.

[tkh385]

I always find it amazing that liberals are the most intolerant of others beliefs.

[alteregosuzy]

ddiaz, you realize you are dealing with Nazi's. I admire your strength of character.

[groovykleenex]

I do agree that it was immature to ruin the hardwork that your group put into your display. However, it seems to me from this video that all you care about was the work that you put into it, and not actually about what the crosses represented. I don't personally agree with your message, but I believe that you had a powerful presentation, until I watched this video.

[ddiaz841]

I completely and respectfully disagree. You have to think about the emotions that were going through us at the time, yeah of course we were upset at the fact they destroyed our hard work, but as the tide settled we became more upset at the fact that they disrespected the memorial and our free speech. The vandalism was an intolerant act to suppress our free speech. We got our point across with the crosses, they didn't like that so they decided to tear down the crosses.

[groovykleenex]

I'm glad, then. Although I'm not sure that the act was intended to suppress your free speech, but just a stupid mistake made by people who didn't agree with your message and were trying to be funny. And I realize that it was not funny. It was rude, and disrespectful, and I hope that the people involved realized that. However, I hope you understand that not all liberal people behave in this manner.

[whereiswaldo2006]

Dude, you are a class act. Keep up the good work. There is a silent majority of Americans in the tens, even hundreds of millions, that support you and your cause. God Bless.

[CelestialWolven]

Well, when you leave popsicle sticks sticking out of the ground, in a public place, no less, where people can freely go, what else do you expect? What healthy college student could resist, anyway? I'm sure most people didn't even know what they were for.

Although, I find it interesting that you were right there when it happened, taping it. No one wants to hear your sob story, not the media or anyone else. You made your point by putting them up, from then on, it's fair game.

[TruthSeeker24]

It's not fair game to damage property of innocent people. Really, I don't want to hear hypocrites claiming tolerance, but showing intolerance to those that disagree with them. It's fair game to point that hypocrispy out instead.

[CelestialWolven]

They were popsicle sticks, on public university property. You're the hypocrite if you didn't see this coming. Whether or not anyone shows you tolerance isn't the point, because you obviously don't seem like someone that does either. And seeing as how this video was taken at night, how are we supposed to know how much "damage" was done? Just like the guy said in the video uploaded October 5, on the MSU campus, those people had every right to step where they wanted. It's their freedom of speech.

[mindsquint]

A display such as the "Graveyard of the Innocents" is a form of protected speech. The uneducated students (sadly, so) that took it upon themselves to destroy the display literally trampled upon the presenters' constitutional speech rights. No less so, than if they had gagged them.

[mindsquint]

Furthermore, the argument that the suppression of another person's speech is in itself a form of free speech is absurd. If the sad little people who could not bare the offensiveness of a bunch of popsicle sticks were actually interested in free speech, they could have set up a competing display/forum/rally/song/(inte­rpretive dance, lol). Whether one agrees with the subject matter or not, this act of censorship should appall anyone interested in the continuation of our free democracy.

[CelestialWolven]

You can say whatever you want, but the fact still stands that they were POPSICLE STICKS, on PUBLIC UNIVERSITY PROPERTY. Tearing them down was the not the most mature thing to do, but the people tearing them down were expressing their own opinion, as they have the right to do in a public place among other students. The next time someone does this, why not be smart and put them on the lawn of a church or something, rather then on free ground where you're bound to have opposition?

[CelestialWolven]

All I can say is that if the people who put them up didn't see this coming, then they are the real fools.

[CelestialWolven]

All I can say is that if the people who put them up didn't see this coming, then they are the real fools.

[mindsquint]

CW - Of course - Churches. Absolutely! One should only feel free and safe to speak one's mind amongst those whose ideology is similar. That's the best way to further our search for knowledge! By your reasoning, one could also make the argument that all abolitionist speech should have been relegated to black churches. I'm sure the civil rights movement would have gone just swimmingly if they'd have kept it to themselves. As a nation, we have seen the fruits of their protest - the power of speech.

[mindsquint]

For a group to take the time and initiative to create a display of the magnitude of four thousand crosses (popsicle or not) is a creative -and protected- form of speech. For another group to willfully destroy said speech is a cowardly and uninspired act of vandalism and suppression. It not only destroys the current work, but acts as a threat to destroy all future works. Thus it becomes an act of bullying and suppression.

[CelestialWolven]

I see no way you can logically defend them. You're completely turning my words around to fit your own defense, and that doesn't sit well with me. I never said they shouldn't have put them up in the first place, only that if they didn't want them torn down, that they should put them up somewhere else where they'd be accepted. All I've heard from this group is crying and moping about their popsicle sticks being crushed. It seems they care more about them then the babies they represent.

[CelestialWolven]

I see no way you can logically defend them. You're completely turning my words around to fit your own defense, and that doesn't sit well with me. I never said they shouldn't have put them up in the first place, only that if they didn't want them torn down, that they should put them up somewhere else where they'd be accepted. All I've heard from this group is crying and moping about their popsicle sticks being crushed. It seems they care more about them then the babies they represent.

[mindsquint]

I am not turning your words around, but merely extending them along the logical path they already follow. You claim that it would be smarter to place a display in a place where it would meet no opposition. I'll give you that. It would be smarter, but it would also be preaching to the choir as it were. That doesn't result in discourse, but in group think. Anyhow, a University is supposed to be a place where competing ideas are respected and allowed to coexist.

[CelestialWolven]

Until you can say that you're a member of our school community, and know what's going on, and know the people whom you're defending, I wouldn't say another word if I were you. There are a lot of factors coming into play that you aren't aware of, and so you can't make an educated judgment about this issue.

[CelestialWolven]

Damnit, some of my comments are being posted twice. Damn refresh button.

I am a student of the university where this event occurred, and I happen to know that many of the people of this organization came out and raked them up the next day, even the ones that weren't crushed (which was the majority of them). Authority figures of the university never gave them permission to do it anyway, so they had to be taken down pretty soon anyway. This info was given to me by one of my past professors.

[mindsquint]

It is unfortunate that this issue has turned from abortion to freedom of speech, but it is sadly necessary. Until the students (all of the students) have the right to speak wherever and however they like, free speech becomes issue number one. What point is there in speaking about abortion, or anything else for that matter, if some intolerant thug - or she-thug as the case may be - will only silence you? Thus the issues get tabled until the forum can be established.

[CelestialWolven]

If you're referring to myself as the thug, then you've once again jumped to conclusions, and are again twisting my words around to your defense. I am against abortion except in cases of rape or health problems, yet you think I have a problem with people expressing that same belief. My problem lies not with the issue, but with how these conservatives behaved in response to what happened. They're pointing fingers at one specific group to blame, when they had nothing to do with it.

[mindsquint]

I am sorry if you think that I meant you were a thug. I was referring to the people who vandalized the display. While I disagree with your defense of the vandals, I find you intelligent and have enjoyed our debate of this issue. Again, I apologize. I should have been more clear to whom I was referring. Please forgive me.

[CelestialWolven]

Then no offense taken. Thanks for clearing that up. Normally I would find such actions against their hard work offensive, but I've heard rumors that the organization that put them up also had people tear them down on purpose for the attention. While I'm not sure if it's true, I know a couple people in the Bears for Life group, and I can see them doing such things for publicity's sake. The prospect of such things angers me, so I don't feel the action was as heinous as it's been made out to be.

[radxgoatxlover]

And then you RAKED THEM UP THE NEXT DAY.

Yep, just out early in the morning to rake up some fetuses.

You are a joke.

Plus, it's almost definitely not the people who protested you the day before, I know, I was with a lot of those kids that night.

[peterpan82x]

you guys are jokes