How can New Hampshirites fight Obamacare? Health care reform

[da5dent]

You blame govts for not working well, corporations fuck up all the time too. Remember the financial meltdown? AIG? Lehman? Govts have good and bad points like everything else? The average life expectancy of a company is roughly 12.5 years, which means they fuck up a lottt. The democratic govt in this country has held up for 100s of years. Admittedly, that's not completely fair, but you see the point, right?

[enemyartistkristofeR]

@da5dent thats because the government allows them to behave this way by backing them w/ corporate welfare, aka the tax payers money. If these corporations were free of government intervention & backing they would be subject to bankruptcy just like everyone else and they would have to practice ethical business models. But since the government & corporations (the too BIG to Fail kind) support one another they can take risks on the tax payers money and the governments force.

Wake up to the reality

[da5dent]

God people this bill wasn't passed to fuck with you, it's to help you. It's mandatory to insure a car, why not a person? Which is more important? You would rather do nothing and watch the deficit spiral out of control? What keeps the world together is balance of power, govt (our power indirectly) balances the power of corporations, courts are another balancing factor. If one gets much more powerful than the other, trouble starts.

[freedomfighter790]

@da5dent IT IS ONLY MANDATORY TO INSURE A CAR IF YOU CHOOSE TO DRIVE, YOU DONT HAVE TO. ALSO ITS ONLY TO COVER A SECOND PARTY NOT YOU, ITS UNCONSTITUTIONAL TO FORCE SOMEONE TO BUY ANYTHING. THE ONLY ONE THATS GETTING TOO BIG IS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, BUT I GUESS THATS OK AS LONG AS THEY KEEP ROBBING THE WORKIN MAN , TO GIVE TO THE LAZY MAN.

[da5dent]

@freedomfighter790 It is mandatory, because if everyone doesn't get it, the ones that do not get it will raise costs for the rest who do get insurance. It is unfair to the rest of us, that's why it is mandatory. Taxes are mandatory too above a certain income level, because otherwise people not paying taxes are essentially taking advantage of public services paid for by the ones that do. Are you saying taxes are unconstitutional too?

[da5dent]

A car would not qualify as a second party, it's property. What's more important? property or person?

I would also argue that it is corporations that have grown while govts have stayed the same or lost power. Many multinational corps have more power than small countries. Their lobbyists have infiltrated govt to a large degree, helping to convince people to bite the hand that protects them - e.g., Health care reform.

[da5dent]

They've got people protesting against a bill that does not allow insurers to discriminate based on pre-existing conditions, people fighting against the very thing that would help them. That's how much corporations have got to us! Govt is one of the best powers that citizens have, we must fight to protect and improve it. Corporations' stated motive - Profit, Govt's stated motive - Of, for and by the people. Govt's motive is definitely better for citizens.

[enemyartistkristofeR]

@da5dent government, ie the STATE, is a Monopoly on Force. government steals from people and governments, NOT people wage WARS & Murder. The ONLY Legitimate role of the government was to protect the people - they fail at that and they oppress the people instead. The Only reason corporations (the Too BIG to Fail) can rob the people is because they have the support of the government via financial subsidies, aka corporate welfare & the use of force, aka men w/ badges & guns. government is the enemy

[enemyartistkristofeR]

@da5dent to answer your 1st question, a person is their own property and they have a right to protect that property.

Government hasn't grown? where do you live? do a google search on how many government agencies & bureaucrats there are and all the regulations, statutes and taxes they force upon the people.

the ONLY corporations or Too BIG To Fail institutions to grow so large are the very same ones who receive the corporate welfare from the government and the backing of the use of force!

[enemyartistkristofeR]

@da5dent how about people take preventative measures for their health and eat healthy & exercise and not abuse the "healthcare system" - health insurance, like auto insurance should be used for major accidents, traumas, such as a broken limb, not every time you feel like going to the doctor for a scrape on the knee or even a checkup. You dont have auto insurance paying for check ups or oil change, do you? No, thats why auto insurance is cheap and healthcare is not.

[real80smusic]

wrong, the only barbarians were the romans. the germanic tribes were actually more advanced than the barbaric people in rome at that time.

the vandals, goths, longobards etc all had more free living principles.

[CurtHowland]

Theft? At a liberty gathering?

Hypocrisy.

Be careful out there, folks. Let's assume it was an accident.

[Vettezuki]

Anybody who walks out on their tab is is a THIEF, period.

[crumblycake1969]

Forcing someone to provide a service to someone else is, in a scince, is slavery.

[CurtHowland]

@crumblycake1969 "Forcing someone to provide a service to someone else"

Slavery is when someone else is entitled to the fruits of your labor.

Every government entitlement is, by definition, enslaving people.

[leonski35]

I support anything that makes the person underneath (ssilentnation) go back under their rock,could be as simple as calling him/her an idiot.

[SSILENTNATION]

Already been tried a thousand times.....but I encourage others to waste their time in doing so. How's it feel so far?

[leonski35]

I support anything that makes the guy underneath me go back under his/hers rock,could be something as simple as calling him/her an idiot.

[slewofdamascus]

Walking out on tabs? Are you effing serious? That is incomprehensible to me. That is an act devoid of honor. I go out for breakfast 5x a week, and the level of excellence that each server brings to his or her "job" (mostly her) is what makes the experience one in which I seek to repeat over and over again, even when the food is below the establishment's normal par. They work like honorable people, they tip their busboys like honorable people. They are honorable.

[Stink808]

I don't understand how conservatives could be against the health care plan. Its actually going to force more middle and lower middle class people to pay more money into something that directly benefits big business and the wealthy.

[SugarMonkey528]

How could conservatives be against a bill which forces all citizens to buy something they don't want which violates the U.S. constitution?

How could conservatives be against a bill which classifies 'health care' as a Right?

How could conservatives be against a bill which redistributes the wealth of the nation?

Goodness, if you don't understand how conservatives (or any American for that matter) would be against these things (all which this bill does) I don't know what else to say.

[n310ea]

We got to pay attention to politics! My grandmother use to say "what you don't know won't hurt you", what you don't know can kill you!!

[enemyartistkristofeR]

I am no fan of being forced into buying Mandatory HealthCare or anything forced on us at all, But I really wish so many people around the country would be as upset and out there protesting and marching and getting angry about the United WAR States illegal Occupations and WARS of Aggression around the world. All this other stuff is mere smoke screens to the destruction of lives and waste of money on these WARS of Occupation & Destruction.

END The WARS!

peace. love. anarchy

[SSILENTNATION]

I support anything that makes freestaters angry, which actually doesn't take much - could be as simple as a firetruck getting washed.

[fczwartek]

I'm against obamacare...not cuz it is socialism...but because it is a 500 billion dollar (at least!) giveaway to another unregulated industry.

It forces 30+ million new compulsory customers to buy a product they don't like and can't afford.

It does nothing control costs or regulate an industry that is exempt of anti-trust laws.

This "reform" bill is a giant turd that is meant to reinforce the foundations of the status quo...

It's not socialism....it's corporate fascism.

[OlGreyWolf58]

watch?v=JQeJdWUQlEc

[OlGreyWolf58]

/watch?v=JQeJdWUQlEc

[Elephantintheroom01]

Very good reasons,

I live in the UK, and i can tell you, nationalised healthcare is a wonderfull thing. But not when its being done by the kind of government you have in the US.

We got ours out of popular movement after WW2 because of the Blitz. Completly different motivation and function to obamacare.

[fczwartek]

Harvard university did a study and found that more than 40,000 Americans die each year due to lack of access to health insurance.

Nearly 10 million American children don't have health insurance (in what is supposedly the richest country in the world.)

That should be our blitz....

But dumbasses here are brainwashed into thinking that if had adequate health insurance...well then we just wouldn't be "free."

[Elephantintheroom01]

I think i've made my position clear, health insurance is good, but getting it from the government is like washing your kids in Hitlers discount soap to keep them clean.

You are the richest country in the world. In 1990 the top 1% of americans owned 50% of all the wealth. They couldnt do that unless it was a dictatorship now could they?

There are bad people in your government. Don't be fooled when they just re-organise themselves and you get a new face.

[Elephantintheroom01]

This statistic also means that in 1990 99% of Americans had to make do with 50% of the wealth of their country. No mystery why they can't afford healthcare.

The US has 8% of the worlds population but 25% of its criminals. This means that it is unlikely all these people are guilty.

the federal government doesnt even know how many laws there are- Prof James Duane

watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

Also, have you heard that each $1 is worth something like -$1.60 in debt?

Maybe you should ENDTHEFED

[CurtHowland]

@fczwartek " 40,000 Americans die each year due to lack of access to health insurance."

That would be false. Insurance doesn't do anything to cure anything.

What they didn't have is health CARE, which has little or nothing to do with insurance, just like fire doesn't depend on fire insurance.

So get the government out of health care so the prices come back down, and these people will be able to afford it.

[fczwartek]

"Insurance doesn't cure anything."

Exactly right... that's why I'm all for putting a bullet in the head of this treacherous and deceitful industry. They make their money by denying coverage.

And if you don't have coverage...you don't get the care you need. That's a fact.

Remove the profit motive (kill the industry and save patients- 2 birds 1 stone)....or regulate like it's a public service.

I know u love the status quo Curt.... but it is killing people (and that's not right.)

[CurtHowland]

@fczwartek "the status quo...is killing people"

That is absolutely correct. The present government regulated and undermined system of "health-care" is killing people. Politicians are mass murderers who avoid responsibility through Sovereign Immunity, another "status quo" which must be abandoned as the Feudal artifact it is.

Regulated industries lobby for those regulations to prevent competition.

Individual liberty and INDIVIDUAL responsibility, for everyone.

[fczwartek]

"Individual liberty and individual responsibility."

Yeah!!!...if a person is so irresponsible that they go and do something stupid like get cancer, or one of their organs fail... then gosh darnit (and golly gee).... they should expect to pay for that themselves! With cash!

I mean... These dying cancer patients (and 10 million uninsured children) are fascist socialists! Expecting ME to pay for THEIR treatment!

Get the cash you lazy fucking welfare queens!

-a compassionate conservative

[CurtHowland]

@fczwartek "if a person is so irresponsible that they go and do something stupid like get cancer"

You know perfectly well I was referring to insurance companies, politicians, doctors and such. I don't see why you have to be dishonest just because we disagree.

"-a compassionate conservative"

Since neither of us is anything like a "conservative", I'm left to wonder just who you think you're arguing with.

[ninjabunnyman]

I think I should help them -- personally, I even believe I have a moral obligation to help them. But what I don't have a right to do is go stick a gun to my neighbor's head, steal money from them, and use it to help poor people.

My charity should come from my own pocket, not my neighbors'.

[ninjabunnyman]

The status quo is horrible. Medicine is one of the most heavily government controlled and regulated industries in the country, like education, banking, etc, and it's no surprise that's it's failing just as badly.

In the 50s, medicine used to be far more free -- doctors actually competed on price. The Santa Monica hospital, used to advertise natal care for about 25 bucks a night.

Instead, now everything is buried and red tape, and controlled by the corporatists, with little choice left.

[klingoncelt]

@ninjabunnyman In the 1950s, a bottle of Coke was 5 cents. Twinkies were 7 cents. Gasoline was 25 cents/gallon. $25 bucks a night was a LOT of money back then.

[ninjabunnyman]

@klingoncelt

A lot less than it costs now. Actually, checking this again, they advertise $30 to cover all natal care, for a standard birth (wards are $14 per night). Using an inflation calculator, $30 in 1952 is worth $239 now. Starting costs for birth today are $7800, which doesn't cover a lot of extra expenses, which are almost always needed. Often it's upwards of 20-30K.

[ninjabunnyman]

Way #2 in which free choice in medicine is destroyed by government intervention:

Drug regulations and licensee means new drugs cost billions to bring to market. Regulations on medical procedures make them far more expensive than they need be.

I don't own other people's bodies, nor do they own mine. If I, or they, want to hire an experienced, competent RN for a particular service, or use an experimental drug, that is our choice.

[ninjabunnyman]

Way #3 in which choice in medicine is destroyed by government.

There are extremely arduous rules on exactly what equipment must be available, how facilities must be operated, inspections, etc. It used to be that churches had free clinics, helping anyone who needed it, with doctors volunteering or working for a few bucks an hour.

They're gone, because it would be a Herculean task to get the permissions necessary to run a clinic like that today.

[ninjabunnyman]

There are many more.

Google "Impossible healthcare solution", for example, and read the first article.

[CurtHowland]

@fczwartek "But dumbasses here are brainwashed into thinking that if had adequate health insurance...well then we just wouldn't be "free.""

Define "adequate"?

Define "free"?

If I am free, I can choose what is adequate for me. Having someone else force what they think is adequate upon me is just tyranny.

[CurtHowland]

@fczwartek "giveaway to another unregulated industry."

You do realize that insurance is one of the most tightly regulated industries in the entire country, right?

You're not THAT ignorant, right?

"It's not socialism....it's corporate fascism."

Yes, it is indeed Fascism, just like the DMV and property taxes.

Which is just more socialism.

[fczwartek]

"insurance is one of the most tightly regulated industries"

The health insurance industry is exempt from anti-trust laws Curt.... and they made sure their exemption stayed intact with this bill.

How can u seriously say (with a straight face) that an industry exempt from anti-trust laws is "one of the most regulated"?

What a crock!

And conflating socialism and fascism? That's a tea-bagger tactic Curt (and thus naturally a lie)- far beneath you!

[CurtHowland]

@fczwartek "exempt from anti-trust laws"

Exempt, by LAW. It's also illegal to sell across state lines, every state has their individual regulatory boards as well as all the federal regulations.

I have no problem if you want to make truth to your statement and first try repealing all the regulations to see what happens.

Fascism is a form of Socialism, state ownership in fact while letting people believe they have titular ownership, but only if they satisfy government first.

Like you car.

[ninjabunnyman]

Ways in which medicine is destroyed by government intervention:

Tax law ensures everyone is placed on medical care plans through work, rather than obtaining catastrophic coverage, and paying small fees in cash. This destroys all price signals, so everyone bills the max, and no one is concerned with providing services efficiently or reducing cost.

Ask a doctor the last time someone asked him how much something costs, paid cash, or shopped around.

[unclesamsbastardson]

Well WTF. Do you hippies want your medical marijuana or not?  For fuck sake make up your minds.

[ed2276]

We will see whether the states are serious about resisting Obamacare, or whether such things are the mere political posturings of insincere politicians trying to ride the wave of popular outrage to continue in office.

We really don't need to ask the federal courts to rule against the federal government...a conflict of interest. We already have the right of nullification in the constitution, and need no court approval before refusing to comply with unconstitutional laws.

Just don't do it!

[IcerC]

I am against this don't get me wrong. But it's hard to argue against it to people when the current system itself is so bad.

[ed2276]

Which is why we need not rely on the federal courts to rule against the federal government. To do so, is akin to the chickens asking another fox if the fox that is about to eat them is allowed to do so.

The states, rather than talking about it, should just refuse to implement the unconstitutional law.

The 9th and 10th amendments already exist as nullification clauses in the constitution. The states just need to assert those rights, without asking permission from a federal judge.

[CurtHowland]

@IcerC "But it's hard to argue against it to people when the current system itself is so bad."

The trick is to identify what makes the present situation so bad.

Insurance regulations, medical regulations, doctor regulations, medical training regulations, licensing, drug prohibition/licensing/regulati­on, and the government sponsored doctor's labor union, all make medicine excruciatingly expensive and limited at the same time.

The patient is almost dead, more government is just more poison.

[Boyntonstu]

Howard sounds like a Mench!

Great interview!

[6197411]

Bankruptcy of the economy is likely the only solution.

And, according to Peter Schiff, it's supposed to happen sometime between 2010 & 2012.

Prepare & arm yourselves, people.

The future is going to be hellish and only those who are prepared & self-sufficient will survive.

Those who cling to the govt's teat will be confused, exploited, and miserable.

[6197411]

Correction: An economic crisis is supposed to occur sometime between 2010-12.

And, again, prepare yourselves and become as self-sufficient as possible.

[slewofdamascus]

If one is counting on the federal government to collapse because of debt, you are mistaken. The reason the government is spending so wildly is precisely because they are NOT on thew hook for the bill, the people are on the hook and when the whole thing comes crashing down (the monetary system), the government is going to come out smelling like a rose (finacially), they will be debt-free and on their way to new heights. That's a fact. The burden of debt belongs to the people, not the government.

[CurtHowland]

@slewofdamascus So the Fed Gov simply repudiates the debt.

One day, all American debt instruments, bonds, etc, are worthless. Period.

The American people themselves are only "in debt" to the degree that the Fed Gov extracts their wealth in taxes at gun point.

I never signed a contract, -I- am not in debt.

[x11115]

Forced insurance is all I get out of it.