The Case Against Spanking - A Freedomain Radio interview with Jordan Riak

[paulchiuk]

The lines on the geopolitical map of the world are battle scars or rivers of blood. Each persons' identity is fundamentally the result of both times of peace and violence. Peacetime is characterized by coercion, conformity, reward, punishment, rights, responsibilities,... and preparedness for wartime. Can we finally end child abuse and war? Who among us takes universal citizenship seriously?

[G95G95]

Freedom is being able to act free of coercion. Never initiate force against your child. Let them do whatever they want or you will lose anarcho-scene points. If your child tries to swallow a high-bounce ball, you have no right infringe on the child's autonomy and intercede. Hellooo! Non-aggression axiom! Think about it, if someone stopped you from crossing the street without supervision you would press charges! Why do parents think they have the right to coerce their children in this way?

[LTBL88]

@G95G95 Wow that is a really fucking stupid strawman. Are you honestly saying that people who are against physical violence towards children are in favor of killing them through neglect?? How does that even begin to make sense? And also, how is assaulting a child going to stop it from swallowing a bounce ball or getting hit by a car? Johnny just swallowed his bouncy ball so I guess I should smack him upside the head and increase the chance that he panics and chokes to death! Grow up

[G95G95]

@LTBL88 EVERY PARENT INITIATES FORCE AGAINST THEIR CHILD! The subjective spanking debate is simply over how much is wrong. I'm sure even someone as slow as you would not condemn a parent for forcefully grabbing their child's arm to prevent him/her from running into traffic. If you are capable of comprehending why using force in this way is ethical, perhaps you can understand why spanking a child that for example insists on running into traffic is just the natural/logical progression.

[FUZZYisBIG]

@G95G95 Sigh, there is a pretty big obvious fucking difference between preventing someone from killing themselves and using non aggression principles as a parent. Would using 'force' to stop a sleep walker from walking off a cliff be wrong? Of course not you fucking twat.

[ljjvl]

@G95G95 ha ha good one

[PandaValentine]

They do develop empathy very young! My nephew would literally plead for his mother not to cry when she would and he wasn't even two at the time. He would get upset because she too was upset. He felt her pain and he was obviously still counted as a baby at the time, or a toddler. But people think they can't feel at that age. Myth, busted!

[dubified89]

Man I don't know what gives but this video will not play for me, it just freezes

[linda121373]

Please quit hitting your babies.

[abdishtar]

Very true that you start in childhood. This can be confirmed also with other creatures that learn from their parents how to behave. Chimpanzees that grow up wild in aread where there are alot of feuds tend to be more violent, than those raised by people, because their enviroment teaches them that violence doesn't make things better.

[DevilWomanCake]

Thank you very much for this wonderful interview.

[Logical602]

Umm, how about you let people rasie their kids as they see fit. Just a thought.

[DreadLaw2]

@Logical602 Well said. I hate these people who let parents get away with slightly differet parenting techniques, but then get all hyporctical and question the parents authority when they rape their kids? Oh.. wait, you of course didn't mean that, you of course know there are limits to what is moral for a parent to do, and that arbitarily implying that Physically Abusing a child is just letting "People raise their kids as they see fit" is nothing but ignoring blatant abuse.

[mrwhatonearthwasthat]

I was spanked as a kid and i turned out just fine.

[Motherlandpluto]

@mrwhatonearthwasthat How would you have turned out if you didn't discover this video? 

[xNAgff]

This is just sad.

[Humanist555]

I understand in hippie utopia-ville we can all get along and nobody ever fights. Sorry, but one of the stamps of our lowly origin is that we compete for reproductive rights which leads to all sorts of nasty stuff, including the will to power. Anarchy always results in SOMEONE rising to power. Even in other primates we see one dominant male. Sorry, we're primates and anarchy never lasts. Some sort of republic or oligarchy inevitably results. Not innate? Look at the other primates.

[Humanist555]

The same thing exists in dealing with anyone who you MUST deal with. In most cases you can simply walk away, but what are you going to do with a government or group, for example, who is not intererested in cooperation but control? Do you think we should have talked to Hitler or was it necessary to speak to him in a language he could understand? You're nieve worldview only works if EVERYONE is in agreement. In case you haven't paid attention, not everybody is in agreement (jihadists).

[Humanist555]

All of these are extreme examples, including the literal beating of the wives and children. None of this is relevant. It's a fallacious argument which is all or none w/no degree The 20-something boys with no children apparently have no ability to diffentiate degrees of something. If you take one drink your a reckless drunkard. If I spank my child I beat them within an inch of their life...umm, not even close. Thisis almost comical.

[Baabaloux]

" is to correct deliberate rebellion." Wow, just wow. You are a monster.

[Humanist555]

Yes, I am a monster. So, did your parents spank you? I recognize some parents lose control and that IS wrong. ONE spank on the bottom and the word "No" is not going to harm a child in any serious way. All theory and no practical examples. This cult of personality is almost amusing. You have no children and that much is obvious and nobody espousing these methods has children or raise them in this way. ZERO field reseach. One needs to learn boundries and the best time is before the age of 5

[Baabaloux]

Good . It is clear to me you don`t know anything. So you don`t mind me send some peoples at your house and show you some boundaries?

[Humanist555]

Sure, I respect the rule of law and I have not violated any laws. Spanking your child is not against the law. Again, you don't address the points which is very telling. You don't have an answer and once again, you clearly don't have children. So you can sit there in your armchair and play armchair quarterback. Good luck with you children if you ever have any.

[Baabaloux]

I'm not interest if you respect the law . I'm interest of pratical ethics and empirical evidences. I don`t need to have children to read all the scientific studies that show how spanking affect children. I am a victim of this kind child "education" and see all the effect on me. Furthermore I see you that is clearing was abuse and lack empathy to yourself therefore you children. Your "point" doesn`t make any sens other then only show your own emotional baggages.

[Baabaloux]

It clears that you are not ready to be the victim of your own teaching. Therefore you are making the case for rational ethic and not your own bigotry.

[Humanist555]

I don't have a problem with the law, you apparently do. Perhaps your parents should have spanked you and taught you respect for the rule of law at a microlevel you would have a clue to how it works in the real world at the macrolevel. If it wasn't for the law, do you think you would survive? Without a state there is noone to protect you and isn't it ironic that you threaten to call the law because intinctively you realize they're a necessary evil. I happen to live in a Constitutional Republic.

[Baabaloux]

Yeah If law tell me to kill jews I should. I can`t believe retard like you have kids. They should make a law about it.

[Humanist555]

That's a stupid analogy. I think the dope you've been smoking has fried too many of what few brain cells you were born with. Maybe instead of dope you should get some testosterone and be a man. You should thank your lucky stars there is a government to enforce laws we can all agree upon to prevent me from taking your lunch money. Clearly you have no idea how to differentiate degrees. The religious right would be proud of your ability to stick to dogma that simply doesn't work in the real world.

[Humanist555]

You keep using the word practical and then you offer no examples of productive adults who were raised w/o spanking being an option on the table. Futhermore, there are plenty of studies that show that a child's view on authority is set by the age of 5. Furthermore, and this is where I draw the line you arrogant, self-righteous prick you have no idea how I am with my children so you can shut your piehole and stop projecting.

[Humanist555]

Don't think because he is intelligent and correct on many fronts that he is right about everything. To equate spanking with an assualt is absurd. It is a deterrent, negative reinforcement. I'm not saying you should lace into 'em for crying out load. ONE swat and the word "No." It works and for those who still want to spout off and have no children, you have nothing to say. You're an armchair quarterback at best. Until you have kids and you have proven results, all you have is this guys word

[DCLugi]

I do agree that it is the folks who have children that will have a much better perspective on this but we don't necessarily have to be shot in the head to advise against being shot in the head.

[Humanist555]

I would agree with your analogy, but one method is for someone's own good as few if any alternatives exist for a child incapable of reasoning except on the most basic level (risk/reward) and the other is for the benefit of the person holding the gun exclusively.

[DCLugi]

Sorry I was using an extreme example to point out that even folks not directly involved in the situation might have useful input.

[Humanist555]

No problem at all. Debate is a good thing. If I am wrong, all I ask is for the other side to make their case. I hear assertions and correllations but not causation and hard evidence.

[DCLugi]

Yes and your hard evidence is your own experience just as someone else who may have become a monster having been spanked as a child. I suppose that's why wider studies are done on the subject.

[Humanist555]

Keep in mind I also use redirection, subsituting, concessions, time out, etc. The only thing I will give them "A" swat is to correct deliberate rebellion. Most of the time more peaceful methods are used. Also keep in mind I am not angry when I spank, Swat and the word "no." It hurts their feelings more than their behind. As they get older and certainly beyond the age where they can reason other methods are used exclusively.

[DCLugi]

I can only imagine how much of a task it is to raise a child so again my perspective is outside looking in and I sense that you genuinely have your childs best interest in mind but I do wonder what (if any) long term effect results from having your feelings hurt by the one you're are completely dependant on.

[Humanist555]

Life has disappointments. I love my wife and I disappoint her and vice a versa. It is only in fantasy land that life if completely free.

[RevolutionaryJam]

I'm beating you for your own good.

[Humanist555]

Beating? Have you read any of my posts?  How many kids do you have?

[RevolutionaryJam]

the question is irrelevant, it's not a case of subjective experience but objective evidence. Resorting to violence show nothing but the parents inability to deal with their emotional responses to the childs behaviour and inability to find alternative non-violent ways of dealing with the child.

[Humanist555]

You avoiding the question is very telling. As every good field reseacher will tell you it is objective RESULTS that matter, not theoretical models w/o case studies to back it up. Again, we bo back to show something, ANYTHNG that proves spanking is a CAUSITIVE and not merely correlative to freakin' cancer. It's waaay to early to make that big leap. Spanking CAN be done in anger but that is not always the case and once again (sigh) it's more hurting their feelings not their behind.

[Humanist555]

All you have to do is read, I don't know, other posts I've written and you'd see there is only ONE specific circumstance in which it's used and how I administer it. I know it might offend your delicate, non-parenting sensibilites. Raise some children, use this method, and get back to me in a couple years. If your methods work (that's called field research) then you have something to say. All these studies are, are just that. They can be spun by anyone w/an agenda.

[Humanist555]

Anyone remember "child lead parenting" that was backed by numerous studies and contibuted to a world full of undisciplined, child-like adults still sitting on their parents couches playing video games and hangin' out w/their equally unproducitive friends. It looked great on paper and failed miserably in the real words, just like taking this off the table. So tell me, do you think we could just talk an aggressor down every time or do you tink violence is a sometimes necessary thing?

[Humanist555]

I think it's a bit of a stretchto say that it is a causitive factor in cancers. What is your alternative when they refuse to listen? Are you going to sit there for two hours begging your child not to eat the cookie you told them not to? I'm sorry, but it's asinine. Could it be that cancer is genetic? Also to, if you're talking about going nuts on your kids is one thing but swating one once w/a calm face and a simple word, "No" works better than begging or rationalizing w/a child who cannot

[candburd]

your belief that it is OK to smack children seriously contradicts your screen name "humanist." It hardly makes you appear a person of great integrity to be taking advice from about how to raise children.

[Humanist555]

I didn't say it was ok to smack children. I said - "A" swat on the rear. It hurts their feelings more than it hurts their behind. I would also way that beyond the age where a child is able to rationalize it is unacceptable and I accept your terms that it is merely an assault. The quickest way to a point is a straight line. Again, what is your alternative? Talk the 3 year old down from eating the cookie as he laughs at you? That's so preposterous as to be comic. Do you have children?

[Humanist555]

The reason I ask if you have children is because if you don't have them, you have nothing to say. Now, if you do, are they of the age where they even can listen to reason? What method did you use before? Now if you raised them without spanking ever, what's the result? What do other people say about your children's behavior/discipline? How much stress are you going through to get them to listen to you? Also to, it is not a catch-all. There is also positive reinforcement, praise & affection.

[shepardh1]

Jordan sounds like a Phil Hendrie character.

[candburd]

fantastic video, thankyou both Stef and Jordan, an inspirational conversation

[monkeysdemons]

brilliant and simply argued points. direct and poignant. I would like to make a transcript of this for research documentation. thank you Stefan and Jordan.

[FacedPalmedPlanet]

SST, no, its to send a message home, words or advice thats not through experience is like telling someone about a great pain they had, if you dont feel it, you cant imagine it, pain is the prevention, the connection etc, why not use elec shocks? or prod them? because the adults need to hit too, its like when we all mad, we want to lash out, it wouldnt matter what level, just to hit something' to prove or to find closer on a subject, & lesson learned or prevented etc. ;)

[RevolutionaryJam]

Also spanking comes from the idea that Children have a broken nature which adults can fix! WHAT THE FUCK it's assault by any other name!

[stefbot]

I quite agree...

[RevolutionaryJam]

thanks for this one it's a very important topic. I recommend Summerhill by A. S. Neill to you, the more I learn about parenting and the psychology of children the more I believe in an emergent/anarchist society.

[RevolutionaryJam]

Corporal Punishment is nothing more than trying to program children to fit the mould which you want them to fit because you can't deal with your emotional responses to them!

Evidence shows that punishment doesn't work and spanking does nothing but make the child hate you and themselves.

Must read books: Summerhill by A. S. Neill, and How To Talk So Kids Listen and Listen So Kids Talk by I Can't Remember

Further:

Limitless You by Lee Gerdes

The Body Bears The Burden Robert Scaer

[Humanist555]

Wrong! I was spanked until the age of 8. I turned out ok and I love my parents. I don't hate myself or them and neither do most of the people I know. You're taking a study and not comparing it to reality. Corporal punishment can be taken too far but it is negative reinforcement and it does modify behavior. What is your job as a parent? To hang out and cater to their every whim? By all means, toddler proof your house but they need to learn boundries. What is your method of deterrent?

[RevolutionaryJam]

oh people always say "I was spanked and I turned out alright" you don't know which latent consequences linger in your unconscious, one is the thought that assaulting small children is justifiable. Your job is to negatively reinforce a childs behaviour??? you mean break them to fit your mould? The best way to do this is to set a good example, a violent example is not a good example, your child will think that violence is a way to solve problems and negatively enforce the behaviour of others.

[RevolutionaryJam]

there is a difference between freedom and liscence, there are a lot of methods of deterrance, I recommend the book How To Talk So Kids Listen, And Listen So Kids Talk

Punishment has been shown time and time to be ineffective and create other tendencies

do you want your child to do right only because he associates doing wrong with pain or because he is a well rounded individual?

[RevolutionaryJam]

NB. When I said hate their parents and selves I mean in relation to the spanking and behavious, a guilty conscience an resentment

When you get beaten by someone stronger then you, someone you rely on to eat and survive through life, that is a thoroughly traumatic experience.

[Humanist555]

Ok, so talk to a 2 year old until your blue in the face. Guess what hippie, stronger people beat up weaker people all the time. Stronger countries invade weaker countries all the time. Is it right? No, but you have to deal with reality on realities term. Maybe in fantasy land your hippie notion of "can't we all just get along" works, but try that method w/the jihadists and see how far that gets you. Good luck.

[RevolutionaryJam]

Humanist, all I have to offer you is that the psychological evidence says spanking is bad for the child. You and I both know that the resonsible thing for you to do is read some books to find out if I'm right or not. If I'm not you lose nothing! If I'm right you gain everything! It's your childs mental health at stake afterall.

All the books will also offer workable alternatives to violence and show examples of how they can be used.

[Humanist555]

I agree,and I have read parenting books. As a preventative measure,I do use the other methods (redirection, natural logical consequences, positive reinforcement, toddler-proofing, et al). Again,I have to point out the weakness of equating correlation w/causation (particular w/cancer). I also agree,children who are abused do have physical and psychological maladies related to the abuse. However, it is a false dichotomy to say any spanking = abuse. There are necessary limits to freedom in society.

[undeadvictim]

But it is not a false dichotomy to say that any level of beating one's spouse = abuse? Why do children have fewer human rights simply because they are smaller & less capable of defending themselves?

[Humanist555]

It is not a matter of rights vs. no rights. It is a question of cognative ability. Children with no ability to discern anything beyond risk/reward are dealt with differently than an child or adult that SHOULD understand natural/logical consequences for acting on their impulses. Once again, I must also point out that beating a child is entirely different than a singular swat on the rear that hurts their feelings more than physically. This is a mischaracterization I am continuously correcting.

[matrixflower13]

i agree 200 percent ..... great show!!

most enjoyable viewing .. and inspiring that you are putting it out there Stefbot

ONYA!!

[DeArmeStudent]

But my girlfriend loves it when i spank her!

What do i have to do now???

I'm so confused now...

;-)

[stefbot]

I certainly understand the impulse, and appreciate the humor, but it may not be the best place for this kind of joke..

[Ultramerican1]

LOL yes spanking is the root of all evil, just listn to stefbot drag on about it's evils for 45 minutes

[AngryGerbil]

This explains why I beat the living shit out of our family cat when I was younger...I had thought I was just a horrible horrible person.

[hughtub]

What if, since humans evolved from apes who have a higher instinctive tendency to use force to solve a problem between apes, there is a genetic difference among people so that some are more prone to violence over reason, and thus corporal punishment is necessary for those who are prone to violence. Example, if a child is very violent towards playmates, what alternative discipline can be given them. Some children are seemingly naturally non-violent towards others.

[stefbot]

Children are violent towards playmates because they have been treated violently at home. More aggression only makes it worse.

[ThePsychoticnut]

I don't know where you get your statistics but when I was growing up the most violent children in my school were the ones whose parents refused to discipline. I was spanked as a child and I am not a violent person. I was terrorized by bullies as a child and felt I was. I never felt terrorized by my parents yet you treat the 2 as the same. Spanking, administered properly, is meant to teach and to correct by exacerbating the natural consequences of their actions. In that context it is appropriate.

[Sarahon06]

I'm trying to understand how you've connected "natural concequences" with violence? Also using the word "teach" as a motive for violence confuses me just a bit. To to 'teach' is to offer knowledge. I think the only knowledge a child gains from being hit is "I don't like getting hit." I'm not trying to be rude. I just don't follow.

[ThePsychoticnut]

I connect it with "natural consequences this way. If you tell a child not to play in the street because s/he may be hit by a car and s/he does it anyway. That child may not get hit by a car (hopefully) at that time. Because s/he has disobeyed you s/he has shown that they don't understand what the consequences for their actions might entail. A spanking in addition to an explanation stands as a physical example of the natural eventual consequence of that action.

[ThePsychoticnut]

You can often teach a child the negative consequences through lecture but sometimes they need a physical reminder to make it "real" to them. I know I'm that way. I have been grateful for every "ass wooping" I have received (figuratively and literally speaking) that taught me that I was acting stupid.

[jwiska]

yes

[dubified89]

The fact that you're 'grateful' for it does not validate it. What happened was you were indoctrinated into a culture of authoritarianism and now that you're in the position of authority you like it. Because you were dehumanized earlier

[ThePsychoticnut]

@dubified89 you could be right and I have amended my position since I wrote this.

[hinatah89]

@ThePsychoticnut Your statement just proves that spanking did harm you. Unfortunately it may be too late for you, you are already brainwashed.

[ThePsychoticnut]

@hinatah89 Did you not read the comment you are replying to? My comments in favor of spanking were made over a year ago. My position has changed dramatically since they were written. I am man enough to admit when I was wrong and it's very likely what I believe now may be very different a year from now. The reason for that is that I am constantly evaluating and re-evaluating my positions based on logic and available information.

[hinatah89]

@ThePsychoticnut Ok I am sorry. I admit my comment was not appropiate.

[Sarahon06]

I agree. I think if you are taught that violence is the key to resolving a conflict, you will act violently when faced with one. In some way this is a form of proof that children can reason their way through a conflict. If a child thinks 'well when I'm doing something dad doesn't want me to do, he hits me and I stop.' Next thing you know the child is taking swings at other children. It only makes sense for to him/her to do so.

[ThePsychoticnut]

except that's not what we see in real life. Sure if I child is genuinely abused you see these violent tendencies. You don't see it in children who are properly disciplined that includes spanking. As a matter of fact recent data suggests, at best, that it is a wash between children of loving parents who spank and those who use "time-out" for disciplining their children concerning violent and/or destructive. behavior.

[lnd3005]

Maybe you could direct me to the recent data you mentioned. I'm open to the possibility that "time out" and physical "discipline" are equally detrimental to children, but that doesn't mean neither of them is detrimental.

[lnd3005]

To my knowledge there are no credible studies that suggest hitting children, in any manner, has a positive effect on them in the long run. There are quite a few that suggest it has a negative effect in terms of future behavior, intelligence, and economic status. Here's an article about one such study (2004). wbaltv . com / health / 3261798 / detail . html

[Humanist555]

I think you an I are the only one on this board with children. Clearly they do not understand the difference between a study, and an interpretation of a study and certainly know nothing about the real world or raising children.

[Ultramerican1]

the problem with that hughtub is you can't have different standards for each individual

[WorBlux]

Wonderful inverview.

[FreeBornJohn1600s]

i agree that children should not be 'spanked,' but i can imagine a single mother who works 40 hours per week and is very tired might get frustrated with a child and shout etc. there are more ways than violent to abuse people. you can mentally abuse people, like when women nag men etc.

[FreeBornJohn1600s]

from what i gather, you are a libertarian, so you don't want children hit but you would deny them health care? also libertarianism is incompatible with environmentalism. it is ok to tax our children with environmental damage?

[Genowulf]

Stef himself has several videos/podcasts on environmentalism in a libertarian or stateless society. Might wanna check them out out.

[FreeBornJohn1600s]

thanks, i will, when i have the time.

[Ultramerican1]

not to mention therapy in general is the biggest scam ever......pay somebody $100 or more per hour to do what you should've done in the 1st place, which if figure your shit out and get your head right.

[Ultramerican1]

It's also not about you, or up to you and to insinuate that this is some horrible thing to have happen just proves what a whiny little pillowbiter you are.

go hug a tree.

I'll raise my child the way I please.

my little girl is at the top of her class, doesn't have a foul mouth and does as she's told.

better than I can say for 99% of children in america today(who for the most part aren't spanked btw)

[toriwillow2]

I tottaly agree with you and in the olden day we had so much less violence and jails we had 1 you know why cause kids knew that if they misbehaved they went up against daddy belt and they behaved what a concept the south has better behaving youngsters and they are respectful

[Ultramerican1]

to each their own, but I for one am raising my daughter to be respectful enough to not tell people how to live THEIR lives.

sounding alot like big government there stefan :)

[toriwillow2]

I so agree with you i was raised to respect people to and i am rasing my kids the same way

[RevolutionaryJam]

looks like you have a latent guilty conscience and can't stand the thought that you might have done something wrong. I recommend the book How To Talk So Kids Listen And Listen So Kids Talk

If you want to spank your child in some circumstances isn't it right to check what the psychological effects might be BEFORE doing it and not assuming that it's harmless?

[Ultramerican1]

another way to look at it is that a fear of violence is the ultimate detterent.

losing your freedom isn't the only reason to fear prison, getting your ass kicked and getting your butthole pushed in are the biggest reasons not to.

now, that's tagetting the anus, lol

[lukeev]

***Outstanding*** dialogue gentleman.

[Ultramerican1]

maybe voilence in society does come from paddling kids.

yet, when parents were allowed it as an option kids showed respect because there were reppercussions.

I spank my kid and I tell her exactly why I am doing it and give her every possible option to avoid it.

if she knows it will happen as a repercussion, she'll generally shape up to avoid it.

[fididle]

Try applying the same standards to yourself as you do to others.

[Ultramerican1]

how have I not?

or are you just commenting for the sake of commenting?

[fididle]

How can you possibly expect the use of unecessary violence agianst your child to deter him/her from doing so themselves?

[gminton88]

I promise you, you do not want to be that kind of father for your daughter.

Stop hitting her and get into therapy.

[Ultramerican1]

and i promis you, you need to mind your own business.

It's people like you with your "good intentions" that are slowly, yet effeiciently destroying our great country.

and I never ONCE felt victimised when it was done to me as a child,I had enough sense to know I could have avoided it with better behavior

[gminton88]

It's not about whether or not you felt victimized -- it's not about you.

You are physically assaulting your daughter, and you are victimizing HER.

If you want any chance of a future relationship with her, you need to stop assaulting her and get into therapy/anger management immediately.

[toriwillow2]

I tottally diagree with you I fully agree with corparal punishment I took the time to have them and pay fo rthem no one will tell me how to raise my kids there is a big diffrence from spanking whoppins to beatings and abuse witch I don't agree with but i hav eno problem laying a hand on my kids behind even the bible tells you to raise your kids that way Look back to the older day how many jails did we have then i not hundreds.

[RogueSwordThesco]

I remember when I was a little kid, and I was slapping my dad's back playfully or whatever and he said (No Sammy, you don't hit people)

I had done something bad and was about to be spanked later on and I said "No Dad, you don't hit people, Sammy is a people too!"

[lukeev]

Wow man, that's a really sad but also inspiring memory. Children intuitively understand ethics perfectly don't they? It takes years of violence and indoctrination to beat that out of them, Good for you for gaining such clarity and strength on the issue.

[lnd3005]

Great comment.

[gosmokesome]

Great interview, clearly outlining the origins of violence in society

[verstwo2]

I'm willing to bet that the top lynching and paddling states are also the top conservative libertarian states also.

Is this an anti-statist arguing for state intervention in family matters?

lol. I don't spank my kids. But Targeting the anus? The buttox is not the anus.

I wonder if these US teachers are under the impression that people are lower class because their lazy. I mean why don't they just pull themselves up by their bootstraps?

[lnd3005]

What is a "conservative libertarian?"

Molyneux, the anti-statist, isn't arguing for statist intervention. He isn't even arguing. He's interviewing Riak.

Riak is not an anti-statist, to my knowledge.

[goodagofilms]

A woman, A Dog, and a walnut tree the harder you beat them. The better they be. 1670 J. Ray English Proverbs.

[MaikUniversum]

wonderful monologue :D

[asperin]

Verbal threats, embarrassing ridicule, constant accusations causing a guilt complex, lying, talking shit about others in front of your children, are also in the category of child abuse.

Spoiling kids with everything they want will also harm their personality.

Be careful moms and dads.

[boxant]

Great talk!

Thanks

[freesk8]

The connection between violence against children and religion must also be made. One of the worst causes of the perpetuation of spanking is the phrase from the Old Testament: "spare the rod and spoil the child." Almost all biblical passages have multiple interpretations, and I think it would be really good if there were an interpretation of this phrase that suggested that spanking was not a good thing. What is available from the context of the bible to support an alternative reading?

[lnd3005]

Does it matter? The god of the Bible literally commands his people to perform genocide.

[freesk8]

Of course if you care about the truth it doesn't matter. But if you really care that people abuse their children less it does matter.

It is a reality that the bible has a huge influence on people, especially in the US. If a better, more peaceful interpretation could be found for this phrase, and that interpretation could be popularized, then we could save thousands of kids from being hit and primed for a life of violence and it's perpetuation.

[lnd3005]

I understand that we both recognize the Bible is a collection of fairy tales. My point was that those fairy tales abound with psychotic super-violence. Trying to redeem them is like trying to find the silver lining of the Holocaust.

The people who take scripture seriously do not have the kind of problems you can settle in an ordinary conversation. They need therapy, and probably medication as well. I can see where you're going w/ this, but, I've got to tell you, it isn't possible.

[Stargazer5781]

Great interview, thank you so much Stef!

[LibertyInOurTime]

It must be understood though that many in the anti-spanking and childrens rights movement are neo-totalitarianist and have an anti-family ideology. They presume by default all parents are bad and that children are the responsibility of the "global village" -- meaning, the property of the state.

Another excellent interview Stefan! Thanks.

[freesk8]

I have a question about what is and what is not aggression against kids. I'm potty-training my 2.8 year-old boy. I never hit him, and never will, but when I see that he is about to soil himself, I pick him up (gently) and take him, against his will, to the potty so that he can go there instead of in his pants. He does not want to go, and he hits me as I carry him.

Is his hitting me justified by self-defense? Am I "aggressing" against him by carrying him to the potty? What should I do?

[asperin]

Freesk8:

By picking him up and taking him to the toilet you are not teaching him to do it by himself. Let him see how NOT going to the toilet sucks more than going to it.

Let him soil himself, let him cry and ask him what he wants, then help him and tell him about using the toilet next time, and let him repeat this mistake until he gets it.

Doing certain things your own kids should do spoils them. Your help must have limits, if not they become dependant of you.

[verstwo2]

hitting is a natural reaction to being forced to do something that he doesn't like, however it is not an acceptable form of protest in most situations and should be discouraged. My discipline strategy is 1. make sure you articulate what is expected "no hitting"(they understand more then you may realize)2. time out/naughty coroner given time by themselves they will calm down and dwell on the reason for being placed their. always explain the you're reasons for punishment, or else it's pointless.

[LibertyInOurTime]

Shouldn't the case also be made that most (in my opinion) violence in the home has been brought about through government policies in the first place such as the welfare state, rewarding of cohabitating couples and changing sexual values through sex education programs? Of course popular culture and moral relativism doesnt help either.

[LibertyInOurTime]

Fascinating interview. How though do we differentiate between genuine violence and psychological abuse against children and false accusations of abuse that agents of the state and child protection agencies act upon that take children away from healthy families and criminalize responsible parents?

[Loveseekingmissile]

people who get spanked as kids like rough sex as adults.

[mcphilthy]

Fantastic interview! Would love to hear from Mr.Riak again!

[msgtsd]

Tragic cycle for sure.

[thunderpants10]

I remember in grade 5 I punched another kid. The principal informed me that hitting was wrong then beat my hands with a leather strap.

[i2aymond]

Shameless advertisement:

The Science of Parenting by Margot Sutherland

[bunabayashi]

Thank you so much for doing this interview.

[ks100001]

5 stars to the video, and 5 stars to both men.

[erdal0]

everyone is an amateur even profesionals :\

[freesk8]

The word "amateur" comes from the Greek "amat" which means love. An amateur is someone who does the activity for the love of it.

A professional is someone who does a job for money.

Sometimes, an amateur will do a better job than a professional, and some times it is the other way around.

[bluecactii]

Excellent interview. I'm convinced.

It almost makes me want to have some kids so that I won't spank them.

[OpineTime]

Thanks Stef and Jordan, wonderfully important interview.

[nanciqwerty]

Spank the devil from within them !