We Who Dared to Say No to War | Thomas E. Woods. Jr.

[patriotofliberty1776]

I'm anti-war. War is the enemy of liberty and the people of the country that launches war is itself the victim as much as the enemy they aim to vanquish. no one wins at war. As Joshua said in WarGames, "Greetings Professor Faulken.A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?"

[fatima01917]

The book, Toward Soviet America, can be read online. Communists have infiltrated for years into the government and even wrote books about it such as "Man without a face" by the late Markus Wolf who hated Senator Joe McCarthy and that's in the book too.

[ejwoodall]

Another reformed NeoCon that agrees with Tom here. My reform took place after Iraq II and seeing the police state based on 9/11. Soon 9/11 falls apart and you realize we are living a lie. The US is dominated by Zionists. The US is the evil empire dragging the word into WW III over the Edomites occupying Palestine claiming to be Israelites or the "chosen ones. God scorned the Edomites as he does Israel today.

[uk6strings]

Woods' story is similar to my own. I was a Neocon myself, untill I began to open my eyes to exactly what I was supporting - Woods is instrumental in changing my mind.

Some help though, for my curiosity: can anyone tell me the specific incident in the Persian Gulf War that Woods refers to, in which the US was bombing thousands of Iraqi soldiers?

[musicandchips]

@uk6strings It was the first days of the first Iraq war, after the Iraqi army was chased out of Kuwait and annihalated as they retreated back towards Baghdad.

[TravellerFellow]

@uk6strings on the Road to Basra, US jets did slow strafing runs, dropping napalm, white phosphorous, high explosive bombs on basically a huge, "Mother of All Traffic Jams", of Iraqi soldiers LEAVING Kuwait. to quote one pilot Air HERO of that operation, "it WAS shooting fish in a barrel". MANY Air Force Crosses, and Air Medals were issued subsequent to that operation. oh well. ha ha ha

[RyanR3volution]

Wow, both of these guys were such gentlemen.

[KOmaSHOOTER]

I don't support killing

[KOmaSHOOTER]

it's the best you can do against war

to say no to war and don't go to army

don't support the corrupt government

every life matters! And your life has a value!

[oneirishpoet]

@ninjashade411 see Smedley Butler, 'War is a Racket'

[oneirishpoet]

the rich gt richer and the poor will always be sent to fight the wars the war-mongerers profit from...the Bus family is proof of this since they made a large part of their fortune by financing the Nazis

[HelgeBuk]

@oneirishpoet Don't forget the poor are getting richer as well. Just saying.

[joeseth05]

War isn't about who's right,

war is about who's left.

[KenMacMillan]

Slavery didn't end in Saudi Arabia until the 1960's.

[MooseOfReason]

Tom makes a funny noise at 6:15 when he facepalms.

[miazagora]

As the aunt of a soldier, I can say I'm anti-war.

[oneirishpoet]

@miazagora tell him/ her to stop working for the Dept of War ASAP, it'll be the best advice you can ever give

[jsnpatrick7]

@oneirishpoet we don't call it the Dept of War anymore, it's the Dept of Peace.



[jimbo525SE]

I agree with Tom Woods on almost everything, but much of this was necessary. What were we supposed to do with Japan after Peal? Bad Japan! Bad Bad Bad Japan!!! During WWI Germany tried to put together a coalition to invade the United States. For the 2nd half of the 20th century it was a very scary time to be a capitalists when everyone around you seems to be switching over. Yeah in retrospect it looks like those wouldn't have been necessary, but you know what they say about hindsight.

[gsukrw06]

@jimbo525SE Japan was provoked to attack...put it into perspective...the entire naval fleet of the U.S. moved into the pacific AFTER the it claimed to neutral. Japan simply did what the U.S. has been doing, it made a "preemptive attack"..... Read the book: "Pearl Harbor: The Seeds and Fruits of Infamy"

[jimbo525SE]

@gsukrw06 Well yes, we were expecting war with Japan, but it wasn't something that we really wanted. There is a reason we built defensive positions on Wake rather than a launching pad for future attacks.

[ObamaIsDaAntiChrist]

War is great! Innocent people deserve to die! Who cares if 9/11 was an inside job, it got us to war so we could kill the innocent, yes!

[devin999000]

meh, wars are profitable, you stimulate the economy by getting into wars... as long as the companies that you pay aren't private, and you actually let the patriots of your nation go to work in your factories instead of buying a few hundred robots from another country... also you need to attack and destroy a company with a huge industry that you want to corner... that's why we were such a great country after both the world wars.

[j4ck2234]

@devin999000

Building a bomb and then blowing it up does not increase wealth.

Wealth is increased by investments into the production process.

Example: Instead of fishing with your hands you invest 2 days of work into building a net and now you are able to catch more fish in less time, thus wealth has been increased.

War is a massive destruction of wealth.

The increased standard of living after the world wars (in the US) has different reasons. (check out mises.org)

[devin999000]

@j4ck2234 ah, but destroying the people who make the other fish nets increases the availability of fish, and supplies you with a monopoly, which is the point that i made. and the increased standard of living isn't really what i'm talking about, more so the booming automobile industry among things that were due, in part, to a monopoly that we gained by bombing the two countries that make most other comparable cars to rubble.

[vspqbd]

War is the health of the state.

[BadWithNames123]

i am definitly getting the book

[BadWithNames123]

Very interesting conversations.

[CKtestvids]

Shout out for the Southern Avenger, whats up Woods!

[successfulbuild]

As for Reagan's comments on nuclear weapons, he said some things about how they need to be abolished and our a threat to our species etc. However, leaders will often say things and not carry them out. He was advised not to implement nuclear reduction policies, and this is the advice he followed - thus expanding nuclear development. Spending on the military and weapons maintained or increased cold war levels after he was gone as well. He didn't do much of anything to promote peace.

[Kenzofeis]

@successfulbuild He had Gramps Bush behind him, didn't he

[successfulbuild]

So, for example, Reagan's "minor" crimes in El Salvador, Laos, etc. led to thousands of deaths. Probably ten thousand deaths in Nicaragua alone, making bin Laden look like Santa Claus. The US even supported Nazi torturers to implement some of the worst forms of human abuse ever documented in history. "We've always had a hard time getting them to take prisoners instead of ears." The third world wars were terrible that prevented progress and should have never happened.See: The Empire Project.

[successfulbuild]

The "Latin American" wars were not little peccadilloes to be downplayed compared to the "crime" of World War I. John Stockwell called the "third world wars" the third bloodiest war of all time. The US was funding contras, terrorists, death squads etc. to put down even mildly social democratic countries and force them into neoliberal (neoclassical) economics. The result was as usual: millions of dead directly (Rios Montt for example killed hundreds of thousands) and millions in poverty.

[hagbard72]

We Canadians kicked your ass in the war of 1812. LOL!

[JiveDadson]

@hagbard72 Do not think we haven't noticed. Seventy-five percent of all Canadians are amassed within 100 miles of the US border, poised to strike again.

[hagbard72]

@JiveDadson We'll win again this time, and you'll be under our rule!! Better learn to speak Canadian now.

[m72mc]

stupidity is universal

[IslandersMets10]

It is beacuase the american colonies won there independence from britan that we are free...every other war does not hold true to that fact. Maybe the war of 1812..but the civil war centralized power, the indian wars expanded power, ww1, ww2....and it just grows and grows. It's time for the states to secede and honor our foundng fathers

[j4ck2234]

@IslandersMets10

you are free? ^^

[OckhamDeRazor]

@IslandersMets10 How would secessionist states defend themselves in the resulting civil war?

[oldstyleliberal]

@IslandersMets10 We're free? Have you been to an airport recently? Tried to start a business? Operated a street vending cart? Etc etc etc.

[IslandersMets10]

@oldstyleliberal I ment free from britains government. But, I can understand why you understood it the way you did. It doesn't sound right.  We are night free in terms of having real individual liberty (hight tax, police state, endless imperial war...so on and so forth). But we are free from british rule, that's what I ment.

[shadowbankers]

@IslandersMets10 every war is used to strip away freedoms...war on drugs, poverty, terrorism, etc.

[MooseOfReason]

12:16

[lilbromarky1]

I'll say this much, dont leave your girl around Jeffrey Tucker. He's a shoe in for the lead role in the next james bond movie.

[TheBullionBull]

At 11:30 he says the Patriot missile is a flop? It is an air-defense missile and was used very effectively to shoot down SCUDS. I think he confused it with some other missile. Patriots are not used against ground targets.

[LibertyWins2012]

@TheBullionBull The Patriot missile was indeed a flop, though at the time all we heard about was all its successful Scud hits. The actual success percentage turned out to be less than 10%. This came out after lots of countries had placed their orders on the basis of the false information, of course.

And I think his point isn't that Patriots were used to hit ground targets, but that their supposed success is another indication of how clean and technically savvy American wars supposedly are.

[MooseOfReason]

@TheBullionBull I've e-mailed Tom Woods twice, and he responded. Maybe you could ask him to clarify?

[ItsFazsha]

@MooseOfReason The staff of the House Government Operations Subcommittee on Legislation and National Security reported, "The Patriot missile system was not the spectacular success in the Persian Gulf War that the American public was led to believe. There is little evidence to prove that the Patriot hit more than a few Scud missiles launched by Iraq during the Gulf War, and there are some doubts about even these engagements.

[pretorious700]

We are all so calloused and conditioned to accept violence and coercion that we can't even comprehend a world without it. Stop and reflect for a moment how perverse and sick that is.

[HBSchool]

All this talk about the propaganda behind the Iraq war and there's no mention of the Pentagon's "military analyst program", damn shame. The fact that the government worked hard to sell us the war is no "theory", the Pentagon has admitted to as much.

[pulpBleacher]

Couldn't agree more - in '91 i was also in favour of the Kawati/Iraqui war...wow what an idiot I was!!!

[Th3Wab3]

justifying any mass murder, rape, theft torture and indiscriminate human brutalizing (war) is justifying in any circumstance especially in the case of every American war...

[tacotank10]

I have this book and love it. Some great forgotten speeches and writings. Interesting bits from the woman who was the first congresswoman, and ended up opposing both world wars, and paid for it both times.

24:49 -- Jeff's story is funny.

[DGalt72]

'If you want to save peace, be prepared for war'.

guy's sentimental pacifist.

funny, there isn't a single word about WWII.

[pretorious700]

@DGalt72 Without WW1, there would have been no WW2.

[LibertyWins2012]

@DGalt72 Wouldn't want you to entertain an unconventional thought for ten seconds.

[LordDyhalto]

I love the LvMi.

I wish more fellow awakened people would REALLY open their mind, instead of watching a few Zeitgheist or Venus Project videos and zealously thinking that idiotic cult is the way to go.

[constablekohler]

Jeff looks like such a nice guy but I get the feeling he'll beat your ass down if you cross him. He just has that look doesn't he?

[PJCelis]

@constablekohler Not sure he'd beat you down, but surely he's quite fond of his property rights.

[pretorious700]

It's strange how the anti war movement has changed over the decades. The strong protests over the Vietnam War were mostly generated by leftist/progressives who esposed pacifism more from idealogy than from a dismissal of American imperialism. Now that bunch are completely compromised because their messiah Obama refuses to end this nonsense. It's really painful to watch progressives twisting in the wind now.

[unameitltd]

Nothing warms the heart of a constitutional libertarian like the confession on an neo con artist who has seen the light on the absurdity of wars for bankster profit.

[lordcrull]

Don't know about Germany during WWII, so can someone tell me why they couldn't invade the US?

[DickeyRogers]

@lordcrull cause we have nuclear bombs?

[Drumboy5165]

@lordcrull They attempted, the Japanese bombed us a few times, but it lacked due to our geographic location. Type 'Nazi invasion on America' and you'll see just what did happen.

[LunkwillFook]

@lordcrull

No manpower. The eastern front was devastating for Germany, and as you may recall Stauffenberg (not the movie with tom cruise) - the elites in the army had enough already and wanted a truce. And there's a saying why Japan didn't invade the US, though it was considered: because behind every door in America there's a gun. So the invasion was canceled. Nice anecdote, don't know if it's true. :-)

[CurtHowland]

@lordcrull "why they couldn't invade the US?"

Germany couldn't cross 24 miles of English Channel.

How do you expect them to be able to cross 24 Hundred miles of North Sea?

Germany could not defeat Russia (neither could Napoleon), and all they had to do to get there was walk!

The one and only reason the US went into WW1 or WW2 was that the presidents at the time were unabashed Anglophiles. That's it.

[FairEnterprise]

Remember Clinton's "surpluses"? didn't they come from a rapid downscaling of military much to the protest of Republicians. or was that not me watching.

[Drumboy5165]

@FairEnterprise No, it came from the over surplus from the tax cuts initiated by President Reagan. The down sizing of the military was a wet dream that the Clinton's and those like them fantasized about for years if not decades.

[manoman0]

They're basically preparing for World War 2 ........ LOL

[superbri007]

"I don't deny that the people who brought down the twin towers are bad people, I mean, nobody is denying that....The way they portray everything in the most ridiculous, over the top terms. The US is the GREATEST country that has EVER existed and our people always have the greatest intentions, so everything we do is always (100% right)."

I laughed because it's true.

[superbri007]

The freedom of an American was supposed to be an infinite renewable source, not something that is regulated by laws. Laws should protect freedoms, not strip them away. I need to write a book already.

[MarmaladeINFP]

Anyone who enjoys this interview, I'd recommend the documentary series titled 'The Power of Nightmares'. It explains how the Cold War mentality was transferred to the War on Terrorism. The documentary can be found in its entirety here on YouTube and on Google Videos. Like this interview, it transcends partisanship. Even conservatives should be outraged by wasteful military spending and infringements of rights that happened after 9/11.

[19TEC85]

awesome interview!

[8DoverNJ]

Great interview. This is an issue which should clearly transcend left/right politics. Sounds like a good read and I also think his other book coming out next year definitely needs to be written. Brings to mind this quote by R. Buckminster Fuller:

"Humanity has the option to become successful on our planet if we reorient world production away from weaponry - from killingry to livingry. Can we convince humanity in time?"

Tom, you need to write that book.

[DoltMasher]

@8DoverNJ

Fuller's quote is utopian. First, humanity does not exist other than a reference to the accumulation of all humans. All it takes is one human to bring to the table an instrument of 'killingry' in order to deprive the others of the 'livingry'. This has happened throughout human history.

The modern state is humanity's best means of solving this issue. Not perfect, but far better than the tried and failed 'can't we all just get along' pacificst utopian ideal.

[8DoverNJ]

@DoltMasher Yes, the quote could certainly be considered "utopian." Your comment about the word humanity makes me think of G. Edward Griffens "Individualism vs Collectivism" essay/video which i agree with. Bucky's main goal in his life was to see what one ordinary human could do that big governments, big corporations and large organized religions could not. Hence, Individualism. His approach was really apolitical. He did question capitalism but ironically many of his designs showed....

[8DoverNJ]

@8DoverNJ ....a great awareness of economics. I think he is right about many of society's problems could be solved through invention/design. He knew the importance of a micro to the macro approach when it came to solving things, Ludwig Von Mises approached his study of economics the same way. I've come to the conclusion that the only way these great inventions get implemented is within a free market. 'Human Action' + 'The Critical Path' = Rennaisance of epic proportions!!!

[DoltMasher]

@8DoverNJ

This is a unique experience for me in the YT environment in that the exchange invites reasonable conversation.

I am unfamilair with Griffens' work, but based on your description will seek it out. I must also for now assume that Bucky is a character in Griffens' essay/video.

I have taken note of your account name only so that after viewing/reading the essay/video I can share my thoughts. I fear by the time I get to it that this thread will be ancient by online standards.TY

[capitalist4life]

I am a recovering neocon. I was converted through Dr. Paul's gentle suggestion that our foreign entanglements may cause some foreigners to want to kill us. I found that reasonable and I became more anti-war as I saw Hannity and Limbaugh vicously attack that reasonable idea. The one thing that didn't convince me was strong anti-war rhetoric. I had to be eased into it. Just keep that in mind. Don't be aggressive and extreme. Gently ease our "conservative" friends into the anti-war way of thinking.

[lilbromarky1]

Great interview. I hope that guys llke Tom catch on with the up and coming generations. Something has to change...

[KaptinObvious]

"Buy my books!" Please! I am cashing in all my chips to pander to the progrressives. His "facts" about every historical account has omitted the horrible, brutal, inertia that led to the events this guy disclaims. If we suscribed to his proposed actions we would all have already submitted to our enemies by our hug and kiss philosphy. He represents the "Ignore and Move On" strategy. "It didn't happen to my family" They don't care about you until it kills one of their own. Then they disassociate.

[chris3443]

Excellent video. Also, the host looks like a mix between Bruce Willis and Sean Connery, a fine combination :)

[CurtHowland]

@chris3443 Jeffrey Tucker is one of the best spoken people I've heard in a long time.

See the /user/MisesMedia upload list, look for "Technology and Social Change", Tucker is talking to highschoolers and does a WONDERFUL job.

Woods also spoke to the same gathering, and they gave him a standing ovation. How many history teachers can claim that?!?

[migkillertwo]

Tom Woods' point about Slavery suddenly made me really REALLY optimistic about our race.

[fluff125]

Only the dead have seen the end of war

[CurtHowland]

@fluff125 Only the dead have an excuse to stop trying to stop war.

[Drumboy5165]

@fluff125 Or will.

[shooter348]

I really respect Tom Woods but I have to disagree with his statements regarding slavery. It may have been outlawed in the U.S. but it is still alive and well throughout the world. I also unfortunately disagree with his conclusion in that analogy that war will someday be a thing of the past.

[pretorious700]

@shooter348 There are many forms of slavery-debt slavery for instance..It's alive and well in the USA.

[shooter348]

@pretorious700 True. Your comment reminds me of my issues against property taxes. As long as the government can charge us "rent" on property that we "own" we never really own that property. If it weren't for property taxes then I could buy enough land to subsist on and have little or no economic interaction with others. Property taxes ensure that everyone has to produce in this economy.

[MooseOfReason]

Tom gave a shout-out to Jack Hunter (Southern Avenger) at 13:34.

[greenbean1984]

best video ever

[adamitshelanu]

UI got 1:46 into this video and realized that the interviewee did use the word "overlords" and the fake-scenario that followed marks him as a stupid idiot.

[melldrin]

@adamitshelanu As opposed to most smart idiots, such as yourself?

[CurtHowland]

@adamitshelanu "UI" did? Who is "UI"?

[pretorious700]

The notion of preemptive war was Hitler's brainchild.

[CBound]

@pretorious700

Not quite.

Look at the Roman Empire, for example.

[pretorious700]

@CBound The Romans never invaded anyone to prevent a future war with them. They were pure expansionists.

[CBound]

@pretorious700

The point is that WAS there PROPAGANDA for going to war many times.

Or do you think that Hitler invaded France to "prevent future war with them"?

[Drumboy5165]

@pretorious700 The same with all leaders like that....Napoleon, Alexander, Xerxes etc. etc. etc.

[reapfreak]

War is the health of the state.

[pdxeddie1111]

what ya talking about? I thought thats why Obama was voted in to get us out of it. I thought that was a clear message that the American people wanted out of Iraq, he was the anti war candidate so what happened?

[pretorious700]

@pdxeddie1111 Obama supporters are loath to admit he's a liar-that would be an admission of their naivete and stupidity.

[CurtHowland]

@pdxeddie1111 "I thought thats why Obama was voted in to get us out of it."

Yeah, how's that working out? Hahahahaha!

[sleedolfine15]

In my own case,I supported the Iraqi war because of 9/11. My reason was so clouded by the rage I felt over the attack on our homeland that I irrationally accepted the Bush arguement. My brother tried to reason with me,but I was'nt hearing it. I'm embarrassed by my thinking then. The lies told in that war and my readings after,forced me to re-evaluate my opinions,and move me from conservatism to libertarianism. In 2004,I voted for Bush,but by 2008, I was for Ron Paul. People can change.

[SKUNKBALLScom]

@sleedolfine15 Same here, I woke up a little later than you, voted for bush twice, then voted for Chuck Baldwin, I will never vote for the Republican / democrat (same) parties again.

[trekkerperson]

@sleedolfine15

I had a somewhat similar process of change and have moved my opinions from conservatism to libertarianism too.

[CurtHowland]

@sleedolfine15 "but by 2008, I was for Ron Paul."

I consider myself lucky to have voted for RP for Prez twice, 1988 and 2008. I will be doing so again, even if it's just another write in vote.

[Voluntarian]

This book was the final straw that made me jump the conservative ship.

[Yamakashi1]

i love the 3:30 part

[oscar7557]

How can you deal with those who refuse to be rational?

[CurtHowland]

@oscar7557 There is no "dealing" with such people. Ignore them, walk away, don't let them get you down.

[pretorious700]

lol-nuclear submarines to fight some bedouin mouth breathers who wipe their asses with their hands.

[Yamakashi1]

@pretorious700 hahahahahahahahahahaha AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH ahhahahahahhaha HAHAAAAAAAAHHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA­AA

[jgbloyd]

Thanks for the brave-hearted interview, both of you!

Funny how it seems to take more courage these days to speak against war than to promote it. 

[Jbrouhaha]

If we didn't fight the War of 1812, we would still be under tyrannical rule of England. I'm glad there are many of us who dare to say yes to freedom and victory.

[LibertyWins2012]

@Jbrouhaha You are exactly the problem. How propagandized can you be? Without the totally irrelevant War of 1812, which the British public didn't even notice, the U.S. would still be ruled by Britain? Are you going to tell me about George Washington and the cherry tree now?

[pretorious700]

@Jbrouhaha Must be internet access hour in your kindergarten class.

[HuxleyWasRight]

thanks for the upload, great interview.

[whitwt]

You guys (all of the LvMi institute folks) are the coolest folks on the planet. Mr. Tucker, thank you for fighting the beast that is intellectual property. You should come to Iowa so we can hang out. I'll take you ice fishing if you like.

[Panpiper]

@whitwt Socialism destroys that which it would steal. I have spent over a decade producing videos I have sold online, and now my work is valueless, because no one pays for what they can simply take. I am on an Atlas Shrugged strike against Mr. Tucker and those who would steal my intellectual property. You want to simply take it for free, just because you can? Fine, I have stopped working. Now you can steal all the old stuff you want. Forget about anything new from me.

[CurtHowland]

@Panpiper So because people disagree with you about "Intellectual Property", you are going to cease doing what you do well?

Have you -read- anything about the destructive nature of "Intellectual Property", or did you convince yourself that there could not possibly be any principled stand against I.P., and that anyone who doesn't agree with you is a thief, a liar, and a socialist?

Copyright creates a particular business model. That's not the fault of Liberty, that's the fault of Copyright.

[Panpiper]

@CurtHowland I have ceased production because while I used to be able to sell enough to cover all my costs and earn enough to cover my time, nowadays I am unable to even so much as recover a fraction of my capital costs. The last video I released sold five copies, one of the buyers uploaded it to file share, and that was it, no more sales. I have read and written about this extensively, this is not some trivial spite on my part. The 'principled' stand is as utilitarian socialist as it gets.

[CurtHowland]

@Panpiper "one of the buyers uploaded it to file share"

So what do you propose? Shall anonymity and privacy on the 'Net be abolished so you can continue your old business model?

The only answer is to find a way to make money -with- the new medium, just like buggy-whip makers had to adapt to cars. It is being done, so rather than act like the victim, go find out how Nina Paley, Dave Ridley, Sam Dodson and others are doing it and making money.

[Panpiper]

@CurtHowland I am not 'proposing' anything. I am saying that the 'proposal' of Kinsella, Tucker et al, is absurd. If you invest your labor and capital into atoms, it is your property, because of your investment. But if I invest my labor and capital into 'bits', it is to be the common property of all man kind, 'by right'?! I cry foul! Simply because it is easy to steal, does not make it any less theft. Leave piracy to skulk in the shadows, where it belongs. Don't codify it into law.

[CurtHowland]

@Panpiper "If you invest your labor and capital into atoms, it is your property, because of your investment."

Fine. And when you sell it, does it still belong to you? No. I can make another that looks just like it, and owe you nothing.

Yet that is what I.P. proponents are trying to say, that I do not own what I have bought, that I cannot recreate what I have seen/heard merely because I saw/heard it rather than bumped into it.

Law? Simply repeal the artificial monopoly grant of Copyright.

[DoltMasher]

@CurtHowland

How do you equivocate ingenuity to physical happenstance (bumped into it)? Are you suggesting that the possesor of I.P. is in possesion by chance? No real effort? Anyone could have done it if only in the right place at the right time?

[CurtHowland]

@DoltMasher "Are you suggesting that the possesor of I.P. is in possesion by chance?"

It happens. Music in the mall? Sorry, even though I had no choice but to listen to it, I cannot recreate it.

"No real effort?"

Labor theory of value.

"Anyone could have done it if only in the right place at the right time?"

No. Creativity may be the most scarce resource of all, which is why I would never advocating taking a creators works from them by force or fraud.

A copy is neither force nor fraud.

[CurtHowland]

@Panpiper "Leave piracy to skulk in the shadows, where it belongs. Don't codify it into law."

I have no problem repealing laws, not passing them.

Will you agree to repeal Copyright/Patent and letting the chips fall where they may?

Adjudication may very well come out in favor of I.P., even if I don't think it will.

So rather than "codify ... into law" your version of reality, will you allow reality and the "social standard" to take precedence?

[whitwt]

@Panpiper I understand your point of view. But I subscribe to the line of thought that an idea/piece of media is a nonscarce good. So I don't consider it theft.

[DoltMasher]

@whitwt

Are you seriously proposing that an 'idea' is a nonscarce good?

[whitwt]

@DoltMasher Very much so. Because as soon as it is released upon the world it can be duplicated infinately without taking it from the creator for he still has the idea as well.If ideas were scarce then it would be possible for the amount of math that people could learn to run out. Is that being too cryptic? If so I apologize.

[Panpiper]

@whitwt Yea, well all the videos I would have created in the last couple of years are now infinitely scarce, because I did not make them. And once all television and movies are 'free', there will be no new ones made except by YouTube amateurs and what governments see fit to tax their citizens so they can produce some government approved media. Socialism destroys that which it would steal.

[DoltMasher]

@whitwt

If ideas were nonscarce then there would be no need for copyright laws in that everyone would develop them. The fact that you mention infiniti facsimile relates that you understand that ideas are in fact scarce, otherwise independent discovery and creation would occur and there would be no need for copying.

You must then argue that a farmer has no right to his crops. Anyone can come and benefit from his production without compensation; after all, the idea of the crop is still his

[Kenzofeis]

@DoltMasher "You must then argue that a farmer has no right to his crops. Anyone can come and benefit from his production without compensation; after all, the idea of the crop is still his"

No, an artist still retains a copy of his work that he can eat for dinner, while the crop taken from the farmer leaves said farmer with nothing.

A farmer does hard and risky work because he must - a painter does not..