I don't see the state of affairs you present with religious debate as being any different with debate about any subject. There is a ridiculous amount of attachment inherent to 'typical' positions, regardless of the subject matter. Innovation and new cognitive development on topics have become so rare. It's not that we've said all that we can say, it's that the effort to say what hasn't been said and to defend it is almost completely lacking in our modern world, which is so very very sad.
Yes, I must learn how to navigate the infuriation, thank you.
I must say that over all this time on youtube your videos have lost nothing of their original spectacular luster. Something no one else connected thereby could claim.
btw I like you and your videos. The videos would be incredibly provocative and engaging were you ever to make a clear decision regarding "what is", but that would have to happen organically. Honesty is all one can ask of a person
Right now I see you as a form of post modern taoist. Taoism is an easy way out, for the intellectually minded. To take a reasonably clear position and argue it is much more difficult.
The question is simple. Do we go on after death, and what does that entail?
@tbgx1 Taoist? In so far as a "third way", yes. In the balance of opposites, walking the narrow spectrum band of monopolar metaphysics, all to embrace serenity? Feh.
The questions most frequently asked because they do not interest me, have been settled to my satisfaction long before my birth, or are irrelevant to why I ask or address questions. Is it easier to select a meal off the menu or to cook for oneself? Is it inherently moral to pursue what is difficult and reject what is easy?
@TheCarruths Feh= "not so much"? How is ur 3rd way different?
Wy do u ask/address questions; entertainment? Do lifes stakes seem high to u?
We're just mixing around the discovered ingredients, not inventing any of them. Stories are impressive. But "ring of truth" is not the same as actual truth.
2me yes. Does "Inherent morality" exist outside our subjective tastes? Ones "evil" is another's pleasure. Morality needs to be grounded in an objective source to have any power or significance.
@tbgx1 "Third way" only makes sense if we're talking about movement on a line, not a plane, not in space. Strange and tragic that "graduation" from black and white would stop at grey (what about blue? green?). Qualia rather than quantity.
I ask questions because I want answers, and the stakes are too high to muck about with convenient cliche. The available positions have rendered the solutions that they'll render. If we want different results, we need novel ideas.
@TheCarruths What convinces u the stakes are high?
Qualia? I hear people are getting their minds blown by DMT. ;)
Already blew mine, now putting it together. I want to know the source of mind and movement. Looking for an original paradigm is romantic and even rebellious. Robert Persig made a great effort to bring new understanding of "quality, the good, and morality", came up with high tech taoism.
Different results to what end, regarding what? Example of a novel idea from the past?
One can pretend they have forever to sit on the question. That is one of the greatest delusions being sold. It's an easy sell, but as absurd as they come.
At some point you have to place your bet. "Not betting" is a bet in the end.
I've always felt that my deconversion story was significantly different from everyone else's, but it's indeed simpler to assume that many push theirs in the conventional mould.
A little bit of my own gospel. Almost Identical factions who want most of the same for humanity fighting over things that really do nothing to change how we are to live and treat one another. The line is drawn and the teams created and no one is going give in ever.
I am all I bring to the table when I talk. I am an atheist to theist and a theist to atheist because in all two sided arguments I can't seem to agree with either. I also don't want to be like either.
@AxiomofDiscord "who want most of the same for humanity" << sharp as a tack, and a disturbing conclusion it is. Thank goodness choices are innumerable.
How do you convince yourself to have confidence based on a foundation of uninspired rhetoric?
It's not about "team", individuals can and do "give in"
U don't have forever to wait for "all possible information" before you will encounter the truth of what is. If u don't feel intuitively that the stakes are high, so be it. We're free to invent what we wish regarding our death. I try to narrow it down. 2 me, ignorance is not bliss
@tbgx1 I did not type that. I am what I am not that I am. If I am stealing from anyone its Shadow the Hedgehog but we both came up with the saying roughly at the same time. I am just less well known.
Unfortunately, people bring too many "rational" perspectives when they talk about religion whether it's the atheists or the theists. Belief in God is ultimately irrational just as the belief in a theory of everything in physics. The world is unknowable from an epistemological perspective. We all concoct concepts and ideas. Sure positivism makes things "work". Sure religion gives people "value". At the end we have to navigate through this life and make the best of it without a blueprint for it.
I think its sad that people feel the need to justify their belief system by comparing it to a former incompetent version of themselves... I don't think that religion is something people should have to justify. For some people their reasoning can't quite be put into words eloquently. Someone would literally have to live in my shoes from day 1 to understand why & what I believe, for it to truly make sense.. Maybe that's just crazy me. Anyways, keep the videos up Ben! I really enjoy watching.
There is a difference between the questions "does god exist?" and "do you have a belief that god exists?". While the first question can be answered "I don't know" and have no direct relation to a persons atheism/theism, it would be odd for someone to answer "I don't know" to the 2nd question unless they are unaware of their own thoughts. The only 'gnostic' assertion I am making is my ability to acknowledge my own mental state. In which I feel I am the world's foremost authority on ;)
These stories that we cast ourselves in as the lead players are sort of filigree gazebos constructed by the Ego. You're right, they're not really us at all.
When it is darkest, that is when the stars of who we really are come out, and we can only see them through a gazebo that is not so dense or complexly built.
The debate for myself is important because of how amazing it is that every generation of human beings gets to have it. All events are waiting to be viewed the right way.
The only way I can trust what I believe is that I have exhausted the opposing possibilities for my experience and understanding. This process is continual. I can only be sure that I seem to exist and that death will be the greatest turning point regarding who I think I am and what I think the truth of my/our reality is at it's most understood.
@tbgx1 I'm pretty sure your reply is an example of the type of exageration Ben is talking about. A hyper-skeptic wouldn't be able to get themselves out the front door, never mind have any sort of life. Once you come to the realisation that the whole of human experience and human endeavour is predicated upon an unproved and indeed an unprovable assumption then the only thing to do is get on with it but retain that knowlege as a metric.
@ballyboneman I couldn't get out the door for years.
You have an answer based on zero experience?
You don't have to "get on with it"... you are free (in theory) to kill yourself anytime you wish. From a material perspective it's the only sensible thing to do, perhaps the only free choice. Im never convinced by Atheists who pretend their life is worth it, they are cowards and slaves. Im fine with my subjective proof of what is. The apologetics 2 back it are as strong as any. I've placed my bet.
Those who have something to say are not always ignored, eg. you. The worst offenders are just weak rhetoricians. Conversion stories are the persuasive equivalent of a product testimonial. I'd rather read a consumer report.
Youtube atheists/theists are ultimately trying to persuade, to change minds, in the same way the Vince gets you to buy the shamwow: Through presentation, rhetoric and a little smoke&mirrors. On the other hand, consumer reports dissect the product, run tests and understand the substance of it in good faith.
I like videos by people with a genuine curiosity, sincerity, and *original substance* that is more than facade. Jericomovie would be an excellent example.
@Hamandchees3 I'd agree to that. The problem really is, though, that people aren't selling anything. The apologists on both sides are presenting arguments detached from themselves.
TAG, for example, is not why Christian believes in God - and what I think is far more interesting and effective is getting to that why. However, the framework doesn't allow that because of the arbitrary guidelines that get lumped on to the discussion.
I think we also avoid bringing ourselves into a such a debate because the framework we have allowed does not give us the ability to argue aesthetically. Because of this we cannot be honest. A theist cannot tell me about the beauty of their religion and what really brought them to it, and I cannot evangelize that i find natural explanations so much more beautiful than anything i have ever been convinced of. allowing for that will bring the people and motives themselves to the center stage.
I don't see the state of affairs you present with religious debate as being any different with debate about any subject. There is a ridiculous amount of attachment inherent to 'typical' positions, regardless of the subject matter. Innovation and new cognitive development on topics have become so rare. It's not that we've said all that we can say, it's that the effort to say what hasn't been said and to defend it is almost completely lacking in our modern world, which is so very very sad.
AnsharDark 1 year ago
@AnsharDark Precisely so. Religious debate is but one example of a far more widespread problem.
TheCarruths 1 year ago
Thanks for the video. Please define conversion, as in conversion for atheism to? Thanks.
YourBrotherByGrace 1 year ago
I was a teenaged scum-sucking atheist!!!!!!!!!!!
randyhelzerman 1 year ago
lul wut naoz
PiratGeneralen 1 year ago
Yes, I must learn how to navigate the infuriation, thank you.
I must say that over all this time on youtube your videos have lost nothing of their original spectacular luster. Something no one else connected thereby could claim.
threeofwands 1 year ago
Yeah. Lets make it real by being real, and recording it. Please? No. No cultural mannerisms. Just fucking do it! I'm moving to Reso Nation. Again! :D
Monolith1618 1 year ago
btw I like you and your videos. The videos would be incredibly provocative and engaging were you ever to make a clear decision regarding "what is", but that would have to happen organically. Honesty is all one can ask of a person
Right now I see you as a form of post modern taoist. Taoism is an easy way out, for the intellectually minded. To take a reasonably clear position and argue it is much more difficult.
The question is simple. Do we go on after death, and what does that entail?
tbgx1 1 year ago
@tbgx1 Taoist? In so far as a "third way", yes. In the balance of opposites, walking the narrow spectrum band of monopolar metaphysics, all to embrace serenity? Feh.
The questions most frequently asked because they do not interest me, have been settled to my satisfaction long before my birth, or are irrelevant to why I ask or address questions. Is it easier to select a meal off the menu or to cook for oneself? Is it inherently moral to pursue what is difficult and reject what is easy?
TheCarruths 1 year ago
@TheCarruths Feh= "not so much"? How is ur 3rd way different?
Wy do u ask/address questions; entertainment? Do lifes stakes seem high to u?
We're just mixing around the discovered ingredients, not inventing any of them. Stories are impressive. But "ring of truth" is not the same as actual truth.
2me yes. Does "Inherent morality" exist outside our subjective tastes? Ones "evil" is another's pleasure. Morality needs to be grounded in an objective source to have any power or significance.
tbgx1 1 year ago
@tbgx1 "Third way" only makes sense if we're talking about movement on a line, not a plane, not in space. Strange and tragic that "graduation" from black and white would stop at grey (what about blue? green?). Qualia rather than quantity.
I ask questions because I want answers, and the stakes are too high to muck about with convenient cliche. The available positions have rendered the solutions that they'll render. If we want different results, we need novel ideas.
TheCarruths 1 year ago
@TheCarruths What convinces u the stakes are high?
Qualia? I hear people are getting their minds blown by DMT. ;)
Already blew mine, now putting it together. I want to know the source of mind and movement. Looking for an original paradigm is romantic and even rebellious. Robert Persig made a great effort to bring new understanding of "quality, the good, and morality", came up with high tech taoism.
Different results to what end, regarding what? Example of a novel idea from the past?
tbgx1 1 year ago
One can pretend they have forever to sit on the question. That is one of the greatest delusions being sold. It's an easy sell, but as absurd as they come.
At some point you have to place your bet. "Not betting" is a bet in the end.
tbgx1 1 year ago
I can hear those stars ,but do i dare ask another.
axisapex 1 year ago
Good points.
vbfl920 1 year ago
Dude you need a haircut, shave the crap off, It looks so much better on you!
schrder123456 1 year ago
I've always felt that my deconversion story was significantly different from everyone else's, but it's indeed simpler to assume that many push theirs in the conventional mould.
That's a subject I shall ponder.
maksiiiskam2 1 year ago
A little bit of my own gospel. Almost Identical factions who want most of the same for humanity fighting over things that really do nothing to change how we are to live and treat one another. The line is drawn and the teams created and no one is going give in ever.
I am all I bring to the table when I talk. I am an atheist to theist and a theist to atheist because in all two sided arguments I can't seem to agree with either. I also don't want to be like either.
Forget the Teams
I am I Amen
AxiomofDiscord 1 year ago
@AxiomofDiscord "who want most of the same for humanity" << sharp as a tack, and a disturbing conclusion it is. Thank goodness choices are innumerable.
TheCarruths 1 year ago
@TheCarruths The choices are seemingly innumerable until you wind up dead, then the truth (what ever that is) will be set upon you.
Until then, you can be the star of your own movie, to be directed anyway your resources, rhetoric and reciprocal agreements will allow.
"Innumerable choices" sounds very much like the selling point of "The Secret".
tbgx1 1 year ago
@AxiomofDiscord
You're stealing from God with "I am that I am".
How do you convince yourself to have confidence based on a foundation of uninspired rhetoric?
It's not about "team", individuals can and do "give in"
U don't have forever to wait for "all possible information" before you will encounter the truth of what is. If u don't feel intuitively that the stakes are high, so be it. We're free to invent what we wish regarding our death. I try to narrow it down. 2 me, ignorance is not bliss
tbgx1 1 year ago
@tbgx1 I did not type that. I am what I am not that I am. If I am stealing from anyone its Shadow the Hedgehog but we both came up with the saying roughly at the same time. I am just less well known.
AxiomofDiscord 1 year ago
Thank you so much. I stopped debating all of this stuff a long time ago. :)
frauleinannika 1 year ago
Religious debate puts me right to sleep these days.
spawnfan101 1 year ago
20 seconds in and I "thumbs'd" this up.
fauyd 1 year ago
Unfortunately, people bring too many "rational" perspectives when they talk about religion whether it's the atheists or the theists. Belief in God is ultimately irrational just as the belief in a theory of everything in physics. The world is unknowable from an epistemological perspective. We all concoct concepts and ideas. Sure positivism makes things "work". Sure religion gives people "value". At the end we have to navigate through this life and make the best of it without a blueprint for it.
Alberto2382 1 year ago
the middle reminded me of some of our recent conversations. ;)
personally, i don't feel there's a debate at all.
;d
666norton420 1 year ago
I think its sad that people feel the need to justify their belief system by comparing it to a former incompetent version of themselves... I don't think that religion is something people should have to justify. For some people their reasoning can't quite be put into words eloquently. Someone would literally have to live in my shoes from day 1 to understand why & what I believe, for it to truly make sense.. Maybe that's just crazy me. Anyways, keep the videos up Ben! I really enjoy watching.
HeatherLeBas 1 year ago
There is a difference between the questions "does god exist?" and "do you have a belief that god exists?". While the first question can be answered "I don't know" and have no direct relation to a persons atheism/theism, it would be odd for someone to answer "I don't know" to the 2nd question unless they are unaware of their own thoughts. The only 'gnostic' assertion I am making is my ability to acknowledge my own mental state. In which I feel I am the world's foremost authority on ;)
erkd1 1 year ago
Dichotomoose disagrees! Don't diss dis dialectic.
gratex 1 year ago
Yeah, that was good.
tiecuando 1 year ago
This reminds me of Wittgenstein.."Where (or of what) one cannot speak, one must pass over in silence.." We don't like that idea here very much.
It really is just a stale quest narrative on both sides IMO
Exactly...I think I've said before that I read somewhere that stars whisper to each other across space time.
The synaesthesia of hearing stars is something I like better than tired quests myths.
AND no, I'm NOT a pantheist. Disclaim before you're accused on YT...That's my motto
EXCELLENT
2bsirius 1 year ago
These stories that we cast ourselves in as the lead players are sort of filigree gazebos constructed by the Ego. You're right, they're not really us at all.
When it is darkest, that is when the stars of who we really are come out, and we can only see them through a gazebo that is not so dense or complexly built.
TheAgentChaos 1 year ago
The debate for myself is important because of how amazing it is that every generation of human beings gets to have it. All events are waiting to be viewed the right way.
ripemind 1 year ago
The only way I can trust what I believe is that I have exhausted the opposing possibilities for my experience and understanding. This process is continual. I can only be sure that I seem to exist and that death will be the greatest turning point regarding who I think I am and what I think the truth of my/our reality is at it's most understood.
tbgx1 1 year ago
@tbgx1 I'm pretty sure your reply is an example of the type of exageration Ben is talking about. A hyper-skeptic wouldn't be able to get themselves out the front door, never mind have any sort of life. Once you come to the realisation that the whole of human experience and human endeavour is predicated upon an unproved and indeed an unprovable assumption then the only thing to do is get on with it but retain that knowlege as a metric.
ballyboneman 1 year ago
@ballyboneman I couldn't get out the door for years.
You have an answer based on zero experience?
You don't have to "get on with it"... you are free (in theory) to kill yourself anytime you wish. From a material perspective it's the only sensible thing to do, perhaps the only free choice. Im never convinced by Atheists who pretend their life is worth it, they are cowards and slaves. Im fine with my subjective proof of what is. The apologetics 2 back it are as strong as any. I've placed my bet.
tbgx1 1 year ago
a true poetic philosopher in our midst
GrowthSpiral 1 year ago
Day, and I can see your truth
Elaina43 1 year ago
@Elaina43 heheheh. Wait for it ;-)
TheCarruths 1 year ago
Those who have something to say are not always ignored, eg. you. The worst offenders are just weak rhetoricians. Conversion stories are the persuasive equivalent of a product testimonial. I'd rather read a consumer report.
Hamandchees3 1 year ago
@Hamandchees3 what do mean by a "consumer report" via your analogy?
williamcardno 1 year ago
@williamcardno
Youtube atheists/theists are ultimately trying to persuade, to change minds, in the same way the Vince gets you to buy the shamwow: Through presentation, rhetoric and a little smoke&mirrors. On the other hand, consumer reports dissect the product, run tests and understand the substance of it in good faith.
I like videos by people with a genuine curiosity, sincerity, and *original substance* that is more than facade. Jericomovie would be an excellent example.
AAL = Vince
Hamandchees3 1 year ago
@Hamandchees3 I'd agree to that. The problem really is, though, that people aren't selling anything. The apologists on both sides are presenting arguments detached from themselves.
TAG, for example, is not why Christian believes in God - and what I think is far more interesting and effective is getting to that why. However, the framework doesn't allow that because of the arbitrary guidelines that get lumped on to the discussion.
williamcardno 1 year ago
I think we also avoid bringing ourselves into a such a debate because the framework we have allowed does not give us the ability to argue aesthetically. Because of this we cannot be honest. A theist cannot tell me about the beauty of their religion and what really brought them to it, and I cannot evangelize that i find natural explanations so much more beautiful than anything i have ever been convinced of. allowing for that will bring the people and motives themselves to the center stage.
williamcardno 1 year ago
Indeed, and hence why I departed the 'debate' some considerable time ago. Nice to see you.
Loreleila 1 year ago