Commentary: the debate between myself and TheAmazingBeliever

[Jegermeister0]

I get that alot from Christians about darwin... They think it really means something :S

[FallenAngel0fDoom]

Try and make your videos a little bit louder next time. I can barely hear this shit. /myvolume'scranked

[thescaryworker]

Darwin remained an atheist. TAB was using the Lady Hope story, which has been rebutted countless times by many of Darwin's relatives and resurfaces when someone with an agenda is playing on the ignorance of the average person.

[DrixDZanth]

Yup, I called him on it.

[mark0032]

hey amdromadas wake gave you a shout out.

[Heathenfidel]

Is there anywhere we can watch the whole debate? I saw the 5 videos of it on Iliketostalkpeople's channel, but that's not the whole thing. Why didn't you record the debate and put it up on your channel?

[fractal420]

Did the debate seem to cause him to waver or at least pause and think about his belief system?

[DrixDZanth]

Good question. Not sure.

[SuperFlyNB]

The Ancient Greeks brought is Philosophy, Science, Pythagoras theorem, the idea of the atom and democracy. You dont see people worshiping Zeus and Poseidon.

[DrixDZanth]

Bingo!

[LotusGreenX]

Good video. TheAmazingTheist is pretty tame. I used to like Veritas48, but so many of his videos seem to show his lack of understanding his apponent. That's not because he isn't smart or hasn't heard their views, but I think he just can't see it from our perspective.

[whoisfettel]

drix, you should check out kabanethechristian (he has another channel called kabane52). He is definitely an intelligent and worthy opponent.

[Heathenfidel]

Yeah, he's the smartest Christian I've seen on YouTube, though I thought TheAmazingAtheist did a pretty good job of arguing against his resurrection video.

[Quionic7]

What ever you do, do not try to debate VenomFangX, hes to much of a pussy. On second thought, do debate him, it will be fun.

[DrixDZanth]

I mean, I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt... but VenomfangX has been chewed up and spat out by the likes of Thunderf00t already.

[Quionic7]

Good point.

[Skavar4000]

Good Job!

The audio is weak. But I am sure easily remedied for future vids.

[DayfallKat]

I watched a recording of the debate. It was enjoyable. Too bad the technology hasn't caught up to phone quality conversations.

Now I want to debate also, but instead debate face to face. I once debated a priest. I should have asked to record it, darn it.

[cyberaquarius]

debate suggestion: Kabane52 (=KabaneTheChristian) or if you like a little more emonale debates Firefly515 ;)

[Glaubensfrei]

Firefly515 is back?!.. If I would defiantly love to see a debate too

[nsane87]

did the dude actually admit that if he thought God told him to kill babies, he'd actually do it?!

[iniksbane]

You should look at Mithras as a Jesus analogy.

[friendlydiplomat]

"Is that really prophecy?" Well prophecy is the fortelling of unpredictable future events, in the case of the Bible, hundreds and hundreds of years in advance, self-fulfilling or not. I admit that by nature self-fulfilling prophecies aren't as convincing as non-self fulfilling prophecies but they are still prophecies none the less.

[DrixDZanth]

.... I prophecy that If Christianity is false, I will pass this semester of medical school.

[friendlydiplomat]

Prophecy is not the same as prediction. You're predicting a future event based on certain pre-conditions. Prophesy doesn't 'predict' anything and is not validated only upon certain pre-conditions.

The pre-condition you're proposing is that Christianity is false IN ORDER for the prophecy of your passing this semester of med school to come to pass. You can't be serious here.

[DrixDZanth]

Of course I'm not serious. But I wouldn't take this as seriously as I would any of the ambiguous prophecies that evangelicals suggest support their "end times" hypothesis.

[friendlydiplomat]

Gotchya! Yeah, I find Bible prophecy to be interesting and I am no scholar on the subject so I don't feel qualified to comment on the validity or lack there of to Bible prophecy at the moment. I'm changing the subject but I remember you briefly mentioning in one of your earlier videos some apparent 'inconsistencies' between Matthew's geneology on Christ and Luke's. It seems you may not have realised Matthew's geneology on Christ is through Mary and Luke's is through Joseph. Buenos Noches! :))

[DrixDZanth]

"It seems you may not have realised Matthew's geneology on Christ is through Mary and Luke's is through Joseph. "

I'm curious what evidence do you have to support this argument?

[friendlydiplomat]

What evidence? To be honest, it's just something I've always known lol! Well, it's something I've known to be true for atleast the last decade. It's just what I was taught. Research it though. I think any well known Biblical History Scholar will tell you this. Yeah, I am pretty suprised you were never made aware of this. I was under the impression that is was just a pretty well established fact! But maybe more people don't realise this than I originaly thought, Peace:)

[DrixDZanth]

I have.... the only problem is the explanation really doesn't hold water among contemporary scholarship for several reasons:

-Differences in length of generation, and the absurd generational span of 50 years in Matthew's account.

-The only way that this can be suggested favorably is to assume the Matthew account's Joseph is Joseph the father of Mary, which suggests a mistranslation from Aramaic to Greek. However, the earliest texts show no evidence of this.

[DrixDZanth]

-Who was Zerubbabel's father? This is one of a few inconsistencies between the 1 Chronicles genealogy compared to Matthew's account.

As a fan of probability, you might enjoy a far more probable argument: Neither Q nor Mark give genealogies. So, Luke and Matthew independently formed theirs in order to fulfill the lineage prophecy; with Matthew redacting from 1 Chronicles.

This explanation is far more likely and explains the data without as much back bending.

[friendlydiplomat]

Interesting, I am compelled to look more into this. Thanks for the reply!

[justintempler]

"It seems you may not have realised Matthew's geneology on Christ is through Mary and Luke's is through Joseph."

That's not evidence, that's apologetics. The early church fathers acknowledged it was a problem they couldn't answer.

and there many other problems created by the genealogies.

[friendlydiplomat]

The early church fathers were fishermen and tax collectors. I'd hardly expect them to know that. There's actually an entire study devoted to the apparent discrepancy of Matthew's and Luke's geneology of Christ. I think it was done by Perry Stone but I'm not sure.

[justintempler]

friendlydiplomat "The early church fathers were fishermen and tax collectors"

I'm not talking about the apostles. I'm talking about people like augustine and origen, I'd have to look it up.

YT user tillnow(ex christian) did a couple videos on it here's one of them

watch?v=C3bXGnaIxEQ

I knocked heads with Kabanethechristian and migkillertwo over it.

[justintempler]

The Jews have a problem with being targeted by Christian missionaries and have some of the most detailed rebuttals of the genealogies here's one.

outreachjudaismDOTorg/maryDOTh­tml

[agentorange20]

I could be wrong, but 'didn't Hebrews keep only MALE lines of hereditary to substantiate property claims? As such a 'mary line' is at variance w/ evidence already.

[justintempler]

You are correct, but the Christians see the problem of Jesus being born of a virgin not being the seed of David so they "claim" the reason the two genealogies is one is Joseph and one is Mary. Regardless, the Luke genealogy has it's own problems that disqualifies it including going by going thru Nathan and not Solomon.

[justintempler]

And, even if Mary could trace herself back to King David, it still wouldn't help Jesus. According to the Torah, the mother (the matrilineal) determines if someone is Jewish (Deuteronomy 7:3-4), but tribal affiliation and family genealogy can only be traced through the person's father (the patrilineal in accordance with Exodus 28:4, 29:9-30, 30:30, and 40:15 [Priesthood Lineage]; Numbers 36 [Tribal Lineage]; Genesis 49:10, I Kings 11:4, and I Chronicles 17:11-19 [Kingship Lineage].).

[dataloreforever]

My favorite part was the couple times you almost spit out your drink at some of his arguments.

[Bluefinger1987]

Interesting account and vids. I do enjoy discussions and debates myself, though sometimes never get enough of them. I do not recommend going to a place like Rapture Ready though... unless for some laughs. I tried debating there, but they usually press you on converting you or something of the sort. I even was mentioned in some prayer threads!

Too bad I was banned there... I really enjoyed catching people out on things scientific. :(

[justintempler]

"I even was mentioned in some prayer threads!"

That's kind of funny in a way. Wouldn't the answering of their prayers be an intervention of freewill?

God would have to interfere with the thoughts or actions of yourself or others in order to answer prayer.

[Bluefinger1987]

You'd be surprised at the amount of double-think they put into the whole prayer thing.

They pray for my salvation and to come to 'God', but to do so of my own free will. However, for the prayers to work, my free will would have to be violated and manipulated.

I tried pointing that out to them, but they weren't able to see how the dots connected. Quite strange....

[TrueTaike]

Bluefinger1987 let me help you out... "for the prayers to work, my free will would have to be violated and manipulated." God doesn't go against our free will when it come to having a relationship with him... BUT, God can, put things in your path, that would change your mind... So praying that God opens your eyes.. may just open your eyes..and it would be out of free will.

[Bluefinger1987]

@TrueTaike Problem with that is: People are praying for act A to occur against my will. What makes you think that even if I acknowledged a god's existence through evidence, that I would want to worship it? The whole 'having a relationship with God' is worship, something that would be completely out-of-character for me. So, for me to come to the point of wanting to worship a particular deity, God would have to make me do something out of character for me, thus violating my free will.

[TrueTaike]

"People are praying for act A to occur against my will." I'm not understanding what your saying...are you saying that when i pray...you are forced to change your ways? I don't see how prayer goes against anyone's will. "The whole "having a relationship with God' is worship, something that would be completely out-of-character for me, thus a violating my free will" ...again how has it violated your free will...if you haven't been forced to worship God.

[TrueTaike]

"The whole 'having a relationship with God' is worship, something that would be completely out-of-character for me" I really love this statement..cause it described...ME before i was a christian.. and it is still a struggle for me. Here's the deal.. if there is Nothing in you that wants to worship God...that means...Heaven isn't for you.

[Bluefinger1987]

@TrueTaike what works for you probably won't work for a lot of people. Also, free will requires my consent in making a decision to whatever situation. Prayer, however, is being done by persons other than myself, and in my case, would be occurring without my consent. If the prayer works and 'helps' me change, then it is occurring without my consent and 'forcing' me to a certain outcome. If that isn't a violation of will, then I don't know what is.

[TrueTaike]

@Bluefinger1987 "consent in making a decision to whatever situation." not sure how many times i have to put this out, God doesn't force anyone to do anything, he wants us to do at our OWN will. Prayer..doesn't go against anyone will, cause God only changes People that WANT TO CHANGE. If you go against God.. the only master you are going to have is yourself, and it is yourself, you are a slave to.

[Bluefinger1987]

@TrueTaike Dude, really, there is a limit. You have an event A which then precipitates effect B. The causal relationship means that for the prayer to actually WORK, it needs to produce the desired effect. Otherwise, the prayer doesn't work and is useless, but for it to work, bye bye free will. Unless you are telling me that I have more willpower than God. Also, you haven't answered my other questions, such as the need for a 'relationship' at all.

[TrueTaike]

@Bluefinger1987 Why do you need relationships? God is a personal Being, and made us personal beings, so it would make sense that God wants a relationship with each and every one of us. If you are into rejecting having a relationship that is your choice, however in doing that God will reject you too...If you want to acknowledge God, but care not to Know him, Perhaps God will Do the same. Respect God, and he will respect you...how is it not fair?

[Bluefinger1987]

@TrueTaike Response to this: Your god sounds like a really clingy ex-girlfriend that one would normally want to avoid at all costs. Seriously. Might be in your taste to have clingy relationships, but dear oh dear, I don't view it as a healthy thing.

[TrueTaike]

@Bluefinger1987 "clingy ex-girlfriend" "I don't view it as a healthy thing" I do love the irrelevant chat... make the Conversation fresh.. Hmm am I into clingy Ex-girlfriends....can't say i know...don't ever wish to have an ex...anything. Have no idea why God is compared to an clingy ex-girlfriend.  Why would God be compared to an Ex..anything? your really confusing me with your Anti-theist worldview..comments..as a Theist..i can't make sense of it.

[Bluefinger1987]

@TrueTaike Everything you described to me comes across as someone who has a bit of an obsessive streak bordering on stalker issues. "I made you, so worship me or else!" is not really a very attractive proposal to any sane person.

[TrueTaike]

@Bluefinger1987 ... " [ I] someone who has a bit of an obsessive streak bordering on stalker issues." are you trying to convince me of who I am? from a YT comment? lol you make me laugh... as most Anti-theist. "I made you, so worship me or else!" <--straw-man You seem to be good at making straw-men.. you should make it a profession(if you haven't already).

[Bluefinger1987]

@TrueTaike And you are trying to pidgeon-hole/label me as an 'Anti-theist', but I've said nothing about being against religion as a whole. Just because I don't accept religious concepts X, Y, Z does not make me an Anti-theist. What you said is because God made us in a certain way, he wants a certain something out of us in return. If not, he rejects you and you lose out and all is sad and tragic! How is that NOT "Worship me, or else!"? If in doubt, scroll up to read your own post.

[TrueTaike]

@Bluefinger1987 "..Because God made us in a certain way, he wants a certain something our of us in return." Yes he wants us to do what we were MADE TO DO. "If not, he rejects you and you lose out and all is sad and tragic!" He reject you, just as you reject him..and HE lets you Go your own way...which is in a dark pit. "its not at all worship me or else" ..its.. "follow me, do what your were created to, or do what you want...even if you walk into that pit..and never get out"

[TrueTaike]

@Bluefinger1987 God doesn't send people "directly" to hell for not following him...People Walk into hell...this is why you aren't getting it. You think you understand Christianity..but you don't..and thus make up what you think..God does..and judge him..by your lack of biblical knowledge(which is what you judge). God done everything to keep people out of Hell...your the one that reject it and Chooses to walk away from it.

[Bluefinger1987]

@TrueTaike So... God made us just to worship him? That's stepping into ego-maniacal narcissism territory. That's not 'love', because if he really REALLY actually cared for us, why let Hell exist? Why isn't he powerful enough to do away with such a serious threat to his 'beloved' creation? Also, so what if I don't know the Bible from front to back? You are the one coming here and saying it is X and Y, but the problems of what you are portraying exist independently of the source. (cont)

[TrueTaike]

@Bluefinger1987 I can tell your a smart guy..probably the reason why I'm not getting whats the problem. All i can do is answer...and try to understand what you are getting at. "that's not love" i think..now it comes to ..what is love? lol i go by the definition of love that is in Corinthians..Whats your definition of Love? And were does it(your definition) come from?

[TrueTaike]

@Bluefinger1987 "God made us just to worship him? That's stepping into ego-maniacal narcissism territory." I wouldn't say just to worship him..but that is our main purpose. And i don't believe that is "ego-maniacal narcissism territory" In that A does not equal B. " if he really REALLY actually cared for us, why let Hell exist?"... what is Hell? Hells is The absences of God.... if you don't want God..you get hell..cause that's what you want..

[Bluefinger1987]

@TrueTaike If you can't or won't understand why I'm trying to get at, then this discussion is pointless. The whole "God made you a personal being, ergo, you must have a personal relationship with him, otherwise you are denying him what he asked from you!" is a great example of narcissism in action, and the only reason why you don't see it is because you are so heavily invested in your particular religion. Just asserting that I'm wrong doesn't mean I actually am. You must show HOW I'm wrong.

[TrueTaike]

@Bluefinger1987 "Just asserting that I'm wrong doesn't mean I actually am"...does that go for you as well? Look if you think this is a game... You've already won...Go onto your next opponent... I have shown why i believe most of what you said Was wrong ..if you didn't get it.. then move on...if i failed..then move on... As for the last statement on the attribute of God...again i applaud you..well done.. perhaps i made a mistake..and need to think it through.

[Bluefinger1987]

@TrueTaike As for the whole "Hell is the absence of God" well, then it discounts one of his attributes, that being of omniscience. You can't be omni-present if there is an absence of you somewhere. At least we have that one straight.

[TrueTaike]

@Bluefinger1987 "Discounts one of his attributes" ...well done... i salute you..  That is very interesting, i have to think that through..

[TrueTaike]

@Bluefinger1987 ...I'll say something about your "Omniscience" and hell being the absence of God. perhaps That means...Destruction..is the only..end to one that rejects God.. and that my friend... (correct me if I'm wrong)...is the absences of God(non-existences) Hey just a thought.. I'm sure you will have some thing in Opposition to that...

[TrueTaike]

@Bluefinger1987 "Why isn't he powerful enough to do away with such a serious threat to his 'beloved' creation?" He is powerful enough..however it would do away with ..free will... and Free will... is the key to for "love" to be real..without free well..we are simply robots..that are forced to love..because we were programed too.

[Bluefinger1987]

@TrueTaike I can take any quote from any book and then state it as fact, but that doesn't mean the fact is correct because it is in a particular book. All it would mean that fact X comes from book Y. You've brought in a concept you are trying to argue, but the logic regarding the concept is flawed, and that's what I pointed out. You tried to portray a deity a certain way as to explain a question, but from an outside viewpoint, it is rather unappealing. So now, it is me 'not getting it' (cont)

[Bluefinger1987]

@TrueTaike So what next? "I'm trolling"? Perhaps the one who needs to review what they are actually arguing for is you, not me. If I have pointed out to you problems with your concepts, and then all you throw at me are circumstantial ad hominems, then I'm afraid I'm not very impressed. Your arguments, to be honest, are just rehashed apologetics that I've seen in so many places. Maybe, before you argue further, you should at least look more deeply into The Problem of Evil regarding your theology.

[TrueTaike]

@Bluefinger1987 I see no problem with my concepts...  Sorry but you havn't revealed it... I see problems with your concepts..that you think are mine..

"The Problem of Evil" i actually understand it quite well..and am satisfied by what i understand on it.. i think the bible explains it well. The problem of Evil..is more of a problem..to everyone... else..who isn't a Christian.

[TrueTaike]

@Bluefinger1987 As for "Prayer going against free will", sorry if i'm not getting your What you are trying to say, I find no reason to think Prayer goes against free will...The one that prays does it out of free will, the one that receives the prayer, will not receive it if he goes against it. When one Prays...one of Two things happen...either God Says yes to the prayer, or no, either way it is answered. Man resists, then God let it be. Simple as that.

[Bluefinger1987]

@TrueTaike But what if the person is not aware the prayer is occurring? How can he resist if he isn't aware that prayer A is being directed at him into becoming follower of religion X? For the prayer to WORK, it has to affect the target person into the desired goal of him becoming a new follower of religion X. There's no other way around that, and because of that, it violates free will. The two ideas are incompatible with each other.

[TrueTaike]

@Bluefinger1987 "But what if the person is not aware the prayer is occurring" most people do not know when "people" are praying for them... Lets do an example... I pray that you stop drinking.. You continue to drink... Maybe God reveals some stuff to you..and you change... In this example... You Had complete Free will.... God helped.. you change your mind on your own free will..nobody forced you.

[TrueTaike]

@Bluefinger1987 Another example. Some family is praying everyday for some dude.. This dude murder people for a living.. God permits this event: One day this Dude's daughter dies when a drunk driver hits her. The dude that has murdered hundreds of people.. Changes(by his own will) ... Look it is very ez for God to intervene..because of prayer..and does not engage in "our free will" ... maybe I'm missing something in your logic...but this is how I see it.

[Bluefinger1987]

@TrueTaike Your second example is a bit... convoluted. I'll just pick at your first one: So if I do activity X and you pray for me to stop doing activity X, if I did stop as a result of divine intervention, then my free will IS being violated. The injection of a revelation would still violate my free will because my behaviour is still being modified without consent. Just because it is godly magic does not change the fact I'm being 'forced'/'changed'/'directed' into a specific outcome.

[TrueTaike]

@Bluefinger1987 "...Choose today whom you will serve" ...Joshua 24:15

"...So choose life in order that you may live."... Deuteronomy 30:19

"...Choose good"... Isaiah 7:15

"...You did evil in My sight and chose what displeases Me"...

Isaiah 65:12

"...Choose knowledge rather than gold"... Proverbs 8:10

These show that God has let us to Choose which directions we want to go. He gives us advice, and tells us what we should do, but in no way does he forces us. Love isn't forceful, thus God isn't.

[Bluefinger1987]

@TrueTaike I'm not interested in what the Bible says, I'm interested in the concepts touted by people. People can justify whatever ideas to whatever source, but in the end, these ideas have to stand on their own merit. Just because the Bible says that it is possible for X to occur with Y doesn't mean reality is like that. I mean, the world is not flat nor small, bats are not birds, and so forth. Argue the concepts from their merits, not from some cherry-picked verse.

[TrueTaike]

@Bluefinger1987 "I'm not interested in what the Bible says, I'm interested in the concepts touted by people" I am... interested in the Bible...thus you just said you are interested in my concepts.. And my concept of prayer is what i have foretold.... Since you are not interested in the bible...how can you know if I'm Cherry-picking verses?

[Bluefinger1987]

@TrueTaike You have not foretold, you have discussed. Also, what we are dealing with is a logic problem, not a Bible one, so Bible verses are very much irrelevant here.

[TrueTaike]

-Heaven(and eternity) would be Hell(for eternity) for the none believer-

[Bluefinger1987]

@TrueTaike Also, you don't know me well enough as to say that because I said X and seeing that you said X before, that the outcome for me is Y. Besides, why must one have a 'relationship' with the deity in question? Why worship at all? Can't one just acknowledge the deity and move on? I'm sure that God is not such a self-centred and narcissistic asshole as to demand worship from everyone unquestioningly.

[FyreAndIyce]

It's a little odd to see you arguing against something you once supported so strongly, but also refreshing to see that you're determined to continue growing intellectually. Simply out of curiosity, I have a few questions.

1. Do you think that the development of religion was inevitable, or a 'fluke' that resulted from a(n) (un)fortunate series of historical events?

2. In your opinion, how has religion benefited or harmed mankind?

Also, is there some forum besides youtube where we can talk?

[DrixDZanth]

Of course! I have a yahoo messenger account: DrixDZanth.

If you don't mind, I'm going to answer your questions along with others in my video this thursday.

Thanks for the questions.

[Knowntje]

you could try migkillertwo for a debate, he is currently in debate with shwanerd

or kabanethechristian, but with him you should limit the conversation to the topic of the existence and resurrection of jesus

[darktango78]

The Horus-Jesus thing Bill Maher talks about is said in the movie "The God who wasn't there" which in turn rips it off of "Zeitgeist", which itself is a very weird conspiracy theory type deal and definitely not a documentary or reputable source of anything.

I found the Horus thing so surprising I tried to check it out for myself. I was unable to find anything outside of that movie that made any similar claims.

[justintempler]

It's funny Zeitgeist was the final straw that made me an atheist. But the religious part of Zeitgeist comes from Acharya S and she used bad information from Massey. Some of the info in Zeitgeist is true some of it isn't. But then again Zeitgeist isn't the inspired word of god.

[newalbion]

I liked the idea of your "cornering" question" Would you kill babies if God commanded it?". I`ll be using it in the future. (No DMCA's I hope)

[DrixDZanth]

feel free, just research the bible verse before hand.

[Bobbiethejean]

Dude, Volume: UUUPPPPPPP!!!!

That aside, interesting vid; twas a good watch.

[DrixDZanth]

Yeah, I didn't realize I had a mic plugged in nearby picking up the sound instead of the webcam. Sorry!

[Bobbiethejean]

Tis fine. :P I listened and enjoyed, though I had to put my volume at full blast to even hear you at all. After finishing your video, I moved onto another, forgetting that I had the volume at full blast. Lol, I almost flailed out of my chair... which wouldn't have been a problem... except that I paint while listening to videos. Wet paintbrush + flailing = BAD! XD