You know conjurama..a popular misconception is that we 'hate' mormons..but we dont 'hate' mormons..we just dont like that they dont like who we are. lol..turn about is fairplay. Actually I really want to thank you for providing a very interesting banter. Nothing that makes us research and probe for answers is unproductive. I will say that this sudden rise like a phoenix from the proverbial ashes of civil rights has afforded me the opportunity to educate myself even more than previous.
of relgious beliefs is protected in this way. You wouldnt want us to take that away..would you? There is much more on the protection of minorities from a often times cruel (doctrine driven) popular majority (segregation, misogynism, combining of ethinicities)...but I think if I make any more comments the comment regulator is going to give me a catcha(?) captcha(?) that is as long as this argument. Oh and I believe mj adeptly fielded the 'seperate' is not 'equal' or the same part.
in Massachusetts have already seen through our four year fight it is this very same point that has to be reached where this very same argument with this very same sentance will be present in front of a supreme court justice system whom must uphold the law. Whether the minority who seeks it protection is 'liked' or not discrimination in this sense can not be tolerated lest the whole system be broken and none are safe. Even your freedom of religion though not very popular in the world
to see that the answer is clearly in the fourteenth amendment article 1 last sentance. "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." Just because the constitution was ammended does not mean it was just and cant be repealed. In fact as we
of but that that would in the next place reaped what was sowed here in this life. Jefferson was so skeptical towards religion he re-wrote the bible! Mostly reducing it to what our conscience tells us naturally. Ben Franklen was a founding memeber of an ANTI-RELIGION group and the list goes on and on. But again..we digress past the core of the argument which is...the relevancy of proposition 8. One only has to look to the incredible checks and balances that afford this great nation its strength
many comments by all the founding fathers in regaurds to seperation of church and state.) A popular misconception is that our founding fathers ascribed to the Christian faith. Nothing more could be further from the truth. While many believed there was a God none believed in Jesus' existance. In fact. The popular belief of that day was something called Diety. A belief in a being more powerful then ourselves..maybe called God, whom we shall not be so arrogant as to imagine we know the workings
blasphemy and strip you of a basic right that would allow others to percieve you as equal and afford you protection. Although I find this argument extremely stimulating I feel its a little digressive. As Americans we all agree to live here under the constitution..to do otherwise would be "unpatriotic". If this is true then we need to leave personal religious beliefs at the door."The First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between Church and State." - T. Jefferson. (Just one of many
"cut down and tossed into the fire"- Mathew 7:19. (Not that I believe in a book written for the third time in human history by MEN who believed the earth was flat, and those who wrote about jesus not only never met him, they had word of mouth for 600 years then wrote of him). But I just find it curious that all these religions exist and they all think they are right..I believe the Born Agains out number the Mormons..what if they tried to ammend the constitution to prevent your percieved
..those guys would talk the paint off a barn. I was curious about one thing though. You said 'we Christians united'. I was raised born again Christian (and then I "saw the light" and got out lol) and I remember that we were pretty unforgiving as to what "our god" was gonna do to people that elaborated on the bible, made rules on who could be considered a true follower (descendants of Joseph Smith)..and many other things which made Mormons fall into spreaders of false doctrine which shall be..
Whose a mormon? Conjurama? Noooo. I never would have guessed that lol. Well I have to give it to you conjurama. No one can ever accuse you of not being passionate about your belief system. haha. You guys elevate past Jehovah Witness level onto a whole new higher intensity level. I do like passionate people though, but will you do one thing for me.. if you ever talk to the JWs will you tell them to let me get inside my house and go to the bathroom BEFORE "the talk". Geesh. Even you have to admit
mj0497 I just scrolled up and read your comments. You are very intelligent. I like your rational thinking. Thanks for having taken the time to add your knowledge.
choice. You guys have civil union, which is THE SAME THING! Under laws that Clinton passed, you guys have the exact same rights that we do, you can't just call it marriage! Oh, and the president that you VOTED for (Obama) thinks that I'M right too! And I LOVE how people blame the Mormons for everything, first of all, we make up > 2% of the voter base in California and second, out of all the LDS people in California, only 5% actually voted FOR prop. 8, so stop blaming the mormons, we did NOTHING
I will agree to disagree. If I make one last comment, it is regarding your remark about civil unions being the "SAME THING!" They aren't AT ALL. Civil Unions are ONLY recognized in the state they are granted. It is NOT recognized by the federal government, and therefore couples in a civil union can not file joint federal taxes and receive the same incentives as "married" folks. We aren't fighting just for the word "marriage" it's for the rights/benefits that we as Americans should be entitled to
I grew up in the midst of persons with your affliction (self righteousness) conjurama. I know the tools you use to debase and demoralize and I persevered in my youth and I will here in my adulthood. No one can make me feel bad about myself and never will. I feel sorry for you that you will spend your life "railing" and pointing fingers instead of being happy. I pity those that have trapped their mind in a box that will ultimately fall in on itsself. Im sorry that has happened to you.
If you think that I'M self righteous, you should look at all the people from these protests! I have never, in my LIFE, seen something so hateful and spiteful and "all-knowing" towards other people than when I watch this! All the people that wanted Prop. 8 to pass just sat on the side of the road with signs and waved to cars, cheering and smiling the whole time. People say that we are hateful because we believe that GAY MARRIAGE is wrong, but truth be told, we don't hate gay people, just their...
I am glad that youve cleared up and prioritized what is moral and what is not for us. May we have your "source"? Because if it has to do with a certain book that is used to justify whatever benefits the person using it then this argument is irrelevant. The founding fathers insisted on seperation of church and state because they foresaw people like yourself trying to use the law as leverage to further their own agenda. And thank THE FOUNDING FATHERS for outsmarting you! Repeal is on its way.
*chuckles* Repeal cannot be on its way, it isn't unconstitutional because it is PART of the constitution. Oh, and my "source"? Ever heard of God? In biblical times he destroyed who CITIES for the very thing that you want to legalize! As for church and state, none of the churches that were backing prop. 8 did anything wrong, we weren't getting involved in any way that was putting church and state even in the same category! All that happened is the US Christians united against a common evil.
Trust me, getting a divorce is a lot less evil than being gay. That much is for sure. And basic Human Rights are afforded to those that practice Basic Human Nature. Slavery has been around for longer than 250 years, and everyone forgets that while Black Slavery was more recent, The Moors (a black race) had their turn several hundred years before that! And it isn't JUST my approval that passed Prop. 8, It was the Approval of the majority (Thank God)!
The constitution specifically protects minorities from discrimination. It protected women and african americans when they needed it and it will protect us. Also..just because somethings been a certain way for a long time does not make it right. Slavery was around for 250 plus years and it was never ok. And conjurama..being gay is not more unacceptable than having blue eyes or being straight is. Please take a line from where Im pretty sure your getting that from and ..."judge not".
The people have spoken and obviously we don't approve of Gay Marriage, and since it is now part of the constitution of California, it ISN'T a civil right! Stop protesting, it's never going to change! The majority of people, even in California, think that Gay Marriage is wrong, and it is, just get over it!
The issue is that the people SHOULDN'T be allowed to vote on an issue that IS a civil right. This is like passing a ban on overalls. Because some people don't approve of them means you can't wear them? Neither gay marriage nor overalls personally affects YOUR life so it doesn't matter if you approve or not. It will change. It was legal once and it will be again. Keep protesting!
If you want to get technical, EVERYTHING is a civil right, because you have the right to CHOOSE to do it, whether it is legal or not! Killing someone is your legal right, but it is also your legal right to accept the consequences! And ACTUALLY it was illegal in California WAY before it was LEGAL, get your history right! Oh, and Gay Marriage affects everyone, because when it's legal it gives the false impression that it is ACCEPTABLE! And the people voted, it is part of the constitution, which..
can only be changed if it is deemed un-constitutional, which it can't be, because the majority of the people said that it ISN'T right! And if they try to take it to supreme court, that 52% of people that voted for it will rise up and make sure that they quash this evil once and for all! Gay people have rights yes, but leave the things that people consider sacred, that have been around for far longer than you or me, alone!
1) I didn't say it was legal before it was illegal so I don't see what history I need to get straight.
2) You can't compare killing to being gay. Killing is a choice, being gay is not. And if you're not gay, don't try to tell me that it is a choice because I am gay and I'm telling you it's not.
3)Killing is also something that affects other people. Just because you think being gay is inacceptable, not everyone agrees with you. Pretty sure they'd agree when it comes to killing.
You can choose whether you want to be gay or not, people say that you can be born with a chemical imbalance, and yes that is true, but that doesn't make you gay, that makes you PSYCHO! And even if it did, you could either choose to give in to the amenities of the flesh, or you COULD be normal. I want you to think of something. Assuming that there was no God, think about humans evolutionarily. If it was meant to happen, we would have evolved past gender. Just some food for the thought.
That's a weak argument. People who accept those who have been coming out as gay/bi etc. are trying to evolve past gender but then there's close minded people such as yourself who aren't trying. What you just said is similar to gender bias. Because typically sewing or the color pink are seen as feminine, should males not sew or wear pink? Because that's how society thinks it should be? Don't say "assuming there is no God" as if to say that there is one. Nobody knows.
Have the right to their own opinion. Mine is that Prop. 8 was a good thing, your is that it isn't. I can handle that, because that is what makes America a beautiful country. I know that we may not be friends after what I said, but can we at least leave it at this? Angelpn74 was right when they said that you are a very smart person you know, and I'm just glad to see that your using it for something that you think is worthwhile rather than just letting is sit.
Also, people who have chemical imbalances are not "PSYCHO" they are just different than you. That doesn't give people the right to say "You have a chemical imbalance! You can't get married!" I don't see THAT happening. Face it, the world is full of different people who are all unique getting back to the subject at hand, which is marriage, that IS a basic right that should be allowed for all.
Sorry, not P.C., I'll take that back, chemical imbalances don't make you "psycho" they make you "mentally ill", either way though, people need to stop complaining that they were "born" gay. YOU CANNOT BE BORN A CERTAIN WAY, YOU ARE BORN SO THAT YOU CAN MAKE YOURSELF! And WRONGO! I KNOW there is a God, I have felt Him and prayed to Him, and had my prayers answered. I mean look! I prayed that he would help pass Prop. 8, and it DID!
Moreover, married couples receive other federal benefits such as survivor benefits through social security, benefits for veterans, insurance breaks, sick leave to care for an ailing partner, & the list goes on. If I'm in a civil union in one state, & move to another that doesn't allow them, I have nothing. If people don't "hate" gays as you say, this is a horrible way to show it. Can you imagine not being allowed all the above rights I just mentioned just because you're different? It's wrong.
Oh, and when I said "Evolve past Gender" I meant LITERALLY, all humans would evolve in such a way that ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE was "one-gendered". Not a weak argument, rather a scientific fact. If it were meant to be natural it would be, end of THAT discussion. Oh, and sewing is NOT feminine. I sew (Though I don't wear pink, my skin is WAY too red!) and I am staright. You know what though, can we just agree to disagree, I'm sorry, I am wrong for saying some of the stuff that I said, because people
5) "leave the things that people consider sacred alone" Sacred, eh? Have you seen the divorce rate, lately? Makes you wonder just how sacred some of you heteros really treat marriage. Seems to me like it's being abused ;)
This is a beautiful, moving video - and the Beatles, I'm sure, would be proud!
buddy51 2 years ago
...and for that I thank all that have taken part on both sides. PEACE and LOVE..
angelpn74 3 years ago
You know conjurama..a popular misconception is that we 'hate' mormons..but we dont 'hate' mormons..we just dont like that they dont like who we are. lol..turn about is fairplay. Actually I really want to thank you for providing a very interesting banter. Nothing that makes us research and probe for answers is unproductive. I will say that this sudden rise like a phoenix from the proverbial ashes of civil rights has afforded me the opportunity to educate myself even more than previous.
angelpn74 3 years ago
of relgious beliefs is protected in this way. You wouldnt want us to take that away..would you? There is much more on the protection of minorities from a often times cruel (doctrine driven) popular majority (segregation, misogynism, combining of ethinicities)...but I think if I make any more comments the comment regulator is going to give me a catcha(?) captcha(?) that is as long as this argument. Oh and I believe mj adeptly fielded the 'seperate' is not 'equal' or the same part.
angelpn74 3 years ago
in Massachusetts have already seen through our four year fight it is this very same point that has to be reached where this very same argument with this very same sentance will be present in front of a supreme court justice system whom must uphold the law. Whether the minority who seeks it protection is 'liked' or not discrimination in this sense can not be tolerated lest the whole system be broken and none are safe. Even your freedom of religion though not very popular in the world
angelpn74 3 years ago
to see that the answer is clearly in the fourteenth amendment article 1 last sentance. "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." Just because the constitution was ammended does not mean it was just and cant be repealed. In fact as we
angelpn74 3 years ago
of but that that would in the next place reaped what was sowed here in this life. Jefferson was so skeptical towards religion he re-wrote the bible! Mostly reducing it to what our conscience tells us naturally. Ben Franklen was a founding memeber of an ANTI-RELIGION group and the list goes on and on. But again..we digress past the core of the argument which is...the relevancy of proposition 8. One only has to look to the incredible checks and balances that afford this great nation its strength
angelpn74 3 years ago
many comments by all the founding fathers in regaurds to seperation of church and state.) A popular misconception is that our founding fathers ascribed to the Christian faith. Nothing more could be further from the truth. While many believed there was a God none believed in Jesus' existance. In fact. The popular belief of that day was something called Diety. A belief in a being more powerful then ourselves..maybe called God, whom we shall not be so arrogant as to imagine we know the workings
angelpn74 3 years ago
blasphemy and strip you of a basic right that would allow others to percieve you as equal and afford you protection. Although I find this argument extremely stimulating I feel its a little digressive. As Americans we all agree to live here under the constitution..to do otherwise would be "unpatriotic". If this is true then we need to leave personal religious beliefs at the door."The First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between Church and State." - T. Jefferson. (Just one of many
angelpn74 3 years ago
"cut down and tossed into the fire"- Mathew 7:19. (Not that I believe in a book written for the third time in human history by MEN who believed the earth was flat, and those who wrote about jesus not only never met him, they had word of mouth for 600 years then wrote of him). But I just find it curious that all these religions exist and they all think they are right..I believe the Born Agains out number the Mormons..what if they tried to ammend the constitution to prevent your percieved
angelpn74 3 years ago
..those guys would talk the paint off a barn. I was curious about one thing though. You said 'we Christians united'. I was raised born again Christian (and then I "saw the light" and got out lol) and I remember that we were pretty unforgiving as to what "our god" was gonna do to people that elaborated on the bible, made rules on who could be considered a true follower (descendants of Joseph Smith)..and many other things which made Mormons fall into spreaders of false doctrine which shall be..
angelpn74 3 years ago
Whose a mormon? Conjurama? Noooo. I never would have guessed that lol. Well I have to give it to you conjurama. No one can ever accuse you of not being passionate about your belief system. haha. You guys elevate past Jehovah Witness level onto a whole new higher intensity level. I do like passionate people though, but will you do one thing for me.. if you ever talk to the JWs will you tell them to let me get inside my house and go to the bathroom BEFORE "the talk". Geesh. Even you have to admit
angelpn74 3 years ago
mj0497 I just scrolled up and read your comments. You are very intelligent. I like your rational thinking. Thanks for having taken the time to add your knowledge.
angelpn74 3 years ago
choice. You guys have civil union, which is THE SAME THING! Under laws that Clinton passed, you guys have the exact same rights that we do, you can't just call it marriage! Oh, and the president that you VOTED for (Obama) thinks that I'M right too! And I LOVE how people blame the Mormons for everything, first of all, we make up > 2% of the voter base in California and second, out of all the LDS people in California, only 5% actually voted FOR prop. 8, so stop blaming the mormons, we did NOTHING
Conjurama 3 years ago
I will agree to disagree. If I make one last comment, it is regarding your remark about civil unions being the "SAME THING!" They aren't AT ALL. Civil Unions are ONLY recognized in the state they are granted. It is NOT recognized by the federal government, and therefore couples in a civil union can not file joint federal taxes and receive the same incentives as "married" folks. We aren't fighting just for the word "marriage" it's for the rights/benefits that we as Americans should be entitled to
mj0497 3 years ago
I grew up in the midst of persons with your affliction (self righteousness) conjurama. I know the tools you use to debase and demoralize and I persevered in my youth and I will here in my adulthood. No one can make me feel bad about myself and never will. I feel sorry for you that you will spend your life "railing" and pointing fingers instead of being happy. I pity those that have trapped their mind in a box that will ultimately fall in on itsself. Im sorry that has happened to you.
angelpn74 3 years ago
If you think that I'M self righteous, you should look at all the people from these protests! I have never, in my LIFE, seen something so hateful and spiteful and "all-knowing" towards other people than when I watch this! All the people that wanted Prop. 8 to pass just sat on the side of the road with signs and waved to cars, cheering and smiling the whole time. People say that we are hateful because we believe that GAY MARRIAGE is wrong, but truth be told, we don't hate gay people, just their...
Conjurama 3 years ago
I am glad that youve cleared up and prioritized what is moral and what is not for us. May we have your "source"? Because if it has to do with a certain book that is used to justify whatever benefits the person using it then this argument is irrelevant. The founding fathers insisted on seperation of church and state because they foresaw people like yourself trying to use the law as leverage to further their own agenda. And thank THE FOUNDING FATHERS for outsmarting you! Repeal is on its way.
angelpn74 3 years ago
*chuckles* Repeal cannot be on its way, it isn't unconstitutional because it is PART of the constitution. Oh, and my "source"? Ever heard of God? In biblical times he destroyed who CITIES for the very thing that you want to legalize! As for church and state, none of the churches that were backing prop. 8 did anything wrong, we weren't getting involved in any way that was putting church and state even in the same category! All that happened is the US Christians united against a common evil.
Conjurama 3 years ago
Oh and ps conjurama- basic human civil rights are not based on "your approval" (thank god).
angelpn74 3 years ago
Trust me, getting a divorce is a lot less evil than being gay. That much is for sure. And basic Human Rights are afforded to those that practice Basic Human Nature. Slavery has been around for longer than 250 years, and everyone forgets that while Black Slavery was more recent, The Moors (a black race) had their turn several hundred years before that! And it isn't JUST my approval that passed Prop. 8, It was the Approval of the majority (Thank God)!
Conjurama 3 years ago
The constitution specifically protects minorities from discrimination. It protected women and african americans when they needed it and it will protect us. Also..just because somethings been a certain way for a long time does not make it right. Slavery was around for 250 plus years and it was never ok. And conjurama..being gay is not more unacceptable than having blue eyes or being straight is. Please take a line from where Im pretty sure your getting that from and ..."judge not".
angelpn74 3 years ago
The people have spoken and obviously we don't approve of Gay Marriage, and since it is now part of the constitution of California, it ISN'T a civil right! Stop protesting, it's never going to change! The majority of people, even in California, think that Gay Marriage is wrong, and it is, just get over it!
Conjurama 3 years ago
The issue is that the people SHOULDN'T be allowed to vote on an issue that IS a civil right. This is like passing a ban on overalls. Because some people don't approve of them means you can't wear them? Neither gay marriage nor overalls personally affects YOUR life so it doesn't matter if you approve or not. It will change. It was legal once and it will be again. Keep protesting!
mj0497 3 years ago
If you want to get technical, EVERYTHING is a civil right, because you have the right to CHOOSE to do it, whether it is legal or not! Killing someone is your legal right, but it is also your legal right to accept the consequences! And ACTUALLY it was illegal in California WAY before it was LEGAL, get your history right! Oh, and Gay Marriage affects everyone, because when it's legal it gives the false impression that it is ACCEPTABLE! And the people voted, it is part of the constitution, which..
Conjurama 3 years ago
can only be changed if it is deemed un-constitutional, which it can't be, because the majority of the people said that it ISN'T right! And if they try to take it to supreme court, that 52% of people that voted for it will rise up and make sure that they quash this evil once and for all! Gay people have rights yes, but leave the things that people consider sacred, that have been around for far longer than you or me, alone!
Conjurama 3 years ago
1) I didn't say it was legal before it was illegal so I don't see what history I need to get straight.
2) You can't compare killing to being gay. Killing is a choice, being gay is not. And if you're not gay, don't try to tell me that it is a choice because I am gay and I'm telling you it's not.
3)Killing is also something that affects other people. Just because you think being gay is inacceptable, not everyone agrees with you. Pretty sure they'd agree when it comes to killing.
4) GROW UP
mj0497 3 years ago
You can choose whether you want to be gay or not, people say that you can be born with a chemical imbalance, and yes that is true, but that doesn't make you gay, that makes you PSYCHO! And even if it did, you could either choose to give in to the amenities of the flesh, or you COULD be normal. I want you to think of something. Assuming that there was no God, think about humans evolutionarily. If it was meant to happen, we would have evolved past gender. Just some food for the thought.
Conjurama 3 years ago
That's a weak argument. People who accept those who have been coming out as gay/bi etc. are trying to evolve past gender but then there's close minded people such as yourself who aren't trying. What you just said is similar to gender bias. Because typically sewing or the color pink are seen as feminine, should males not sew or wear pink? Because that's how society thinks it should be? Don't say "assuming there is no God" as if to say that there is one. Nobody knows.
mj0497 3 years ago
Have the right to their own opinion. Mine is that Prop. 8 was a good thing, your is that it isn't. I can handle that, because that is what makes America a beautiful country. I know that we may not be friends after what I said, but can we at least leave it at this? Angelpn74 was right when they said that you are a very smart person you know, and I'm just glad to see that your using it for something that you think is worthwhile rather than just letting is sit.
Conjurama 3 years ago
Also, people who have chemical imbalances are not "PSYCHO" they are just different than you. That doesn't give people the right to say "You have a chemical imbalance! You can't get married!" I don't see THAT happening. Face it, the world is full of different people who are all unique getting back to the subject at hand, which is marriage, that IS a basic right that should be allowed for all.
mj0497 3 years ago
Sorry, not P.C., I'll take that back, chemical imbalances don't make you "psycho" they make you "mentally ill", either way though, people need to stop complaining that they were "born" gay. YOU CANNOT BE BORN A CERTAIN WAY, YOU ARE BORN SO THAT YOU CAN MAKE YOURSELF! And WRONGO! I KNOW there is a God, I have felt Him and prayed to Him, and had my prayers answered. I mean look! I prayed that he would help pass Prop. 8, and it DID!
Conjurama 3 years ago
Moreover, married couples receive other federal benefits such as survivor benefits through social security, benefits for veterans, insurance breaks, sick leave to care for an ailing partner, & the list goes on. If I'm in a civil union in one state, & move to another that doesn't allow them, I have nothing. If people don't "hate" gays as you say, this is a horrible way to show it. Can you imagine not being allowed all the above rights I just mentioned just because you're different? It's wrong.
mj0497 3 years ago
Oh, and when I said "Evolve past Gender" I meant LITERALLY, all humans would evolve in such a way that ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE was "one-gendered". Not a weak argument, rather a scientific fact. If it were meant to be natural it would be, end of THAT discussion. Oh, and sewing is NOT feminine. I sew (Though I don't wear pink, my skin is WAY too red!) and I am staright. You know what though, can we just agree to disagree, I'm sorry, I am wrong for saying some of the stuff that I said, because people
Conjurama 3 years ago
Oh wait, I forgot..
5) "leave the things that people consider sacred alone" Sacred, eh? Have you seen the divorce rate, lately? Makes you wonder just how sacred some of you heteros really treat marriage. Seems to me like it's being abused ;)
mj0497 3 years ago
Moving and beautiful.
nidanap 3 years ago