Altcar: Fuel Cell Foolishness from honda, toyota

[rentoz]

Honda's ok. Although EV cars are readily avaialble and do not necessarily need a dedicated infrastructure, they still have the issue of haviing expensive batteries which charge in far too long time. Hydrogen can be produced using electricity from wind turbines, sure that has a cost but it is unlimited and a refill is only 2-3 minutes.

I guess if we find a way of storing energy from something which is renewable and takes only about 2-3 minutes to charge then that battery technology should win.

[234566tgvb]

This is the technology of the future. I can't wait to they have finaly refined the technology and can produce them at affordable prices :D.

[ceriman]

considering that the fuel cell alone is over a half million dollars, with most of that cost for the platinum needed, they won't be "affordable" any time soon.

Plug-ins are a lot less expensive.

[liveoilfree]

Actually, we can stop at RV parks and fast-charge, it's more like 45 minutes not 8 hours.

But EVs are not designed for long distances; if they were, we'd just add a small genset, and run the car on 28 kW (that's all it takes to keep a RAV4-EV at 80 mph).

[liveoilfree]

We HAVE an alternative to petroleum, it's:

1. BATTERY POWERED from solar rooftop systems;

2. CNG cars, trucks and buses;

3. SERIAL HYBRID CNG plug-in cars, trucks and buses.

NONE of them are "hydrogen powered", and none will be; H2 cars are a scam.

[accountsuck2]

You forgot about ethanol. Brazil has adopted a cane based fuel and it is completely renewable. Ethanol has also proven to be a large power producer as it has been used in drag racing for some time now, fueling cars with thousands of horsepower.

[liveoilfree]

Hydrogen has assumed the status of a myth, it need not be visible, it's a cure-all and end-all for those lacking in education. They are fanatically convinced that Hydrogen is going to solve their personal problems, and get emotionally violent when their faith is challenged by real-world facts.

[RootsTreeStump]

and people also thought that humans would never be able to fly... SHUT UP YOU HAVE NO MORE STUPID POINTS TO MAKE

[madpistol]

Apparently my message got deleted. I have a pretty good idea who did it too. Don't let this guy rattle your cage. He's a critic that enjoys finding fault with the world we live in. I can almost guarantee you he doesn't agree with the Continuously Variable Transmissions that Nissan is using in their current vehicles either. If he did his research though, he'd realize there are more ADVANTAGES to this technology than disadvantages. That's what moves us forward.

[liveoilfree]

CVT is only useful if you don't have high torque demands at low speed, which is why it's used in the Toyota Prius and other strong parallel hybrids.

[madpistol]

Are you serious? I think GM and Toyota beg to differ. That's why Chevy has a Tahoe Hybrid that uses a 5.3L V8 and Lexus has the LS600h with a 5.0L V8. Both produce 300+ HP, well over twice as much as the puny Prius's CVT takes. It's amazing how CVT technology has advanced beyond the torque barrier, and has now produced some very high output hybrid vehnicles. Perhaps hydrogen will do the same; it will advance beyond early deficiencies. Technology improves over time. Hydrogen is no different.

[liveoilfree]

HYBRID vehicles. The electric motor, which has maximum torque at zero RPM, is needed for an assist. You should study.

[madpistol]

THOSE ARE HYBRID VEHICLES!!!! THEY BOTH USE CVTs!!! Technology improves over time, believe it or not. I've done my homework... it's time for you to do yours.

[madpistol]

This car, along with any other Hydrogen based cars, are just a stepping stone for what is to come. It's an experiment being conducted by Honda to figure out what it's going to take to make new Hydrogen based cars a reality. Electric cars may look better on paper, but if you think about it, electricity still has to be produced from a powerplant; you're still losing energy, possibly from a non-renewable resource. Hydrogen is not mature yet. When it does mature, it could be a great solution.

[liveoilfree]

Well, that's the naive view, that it would take a power plant. But we can make more electric with our rooftop solar system than we need to run TWO RAV4-EV and also get our domestic electric for free. And pay for it with money we avoided spending on gas.

[madpistol]

On what ground do you say that? Have you read over Honda's technical briefs for this car? If you did, you'd realize that this car produces more energy than an electric car ever could. It also uses a renewable resource that, if used correctly, can be easily accessible via solar powered refueling/compressor stations. People may one day own their own compressor stations at home, which would also run on solar power. I think Honda knows what they're doing. You don't though.

[liveoilfree]

Honda has committed to Internal Combustion (IC) engines. The fuel cell effort is just a cover, they are committed to IC by their CEO's decision.

To manufacture Hydrogen from solar power, you require immense cost. For example, each Hydrogen "fueling station" costs up to $2M, which only services 4 to 8 cars.

The infrastructure for a plug-in car is just an electric outlet, and a $20,000 solar system -- which also provides domestic electric.

[liveoilfree]

LOL the car doesn't produce energy, it USES energy for motion and recoups (or dissipates) it on braking.

Hydrogen is not a "renewable resource", it's an element that's found combined in nature. To separate it from other elements takes much more energy than it can yield by burning or recombining.

[RootsTreeStump]

energy from the sun, wind and water would be considered clean so... there are ways of obtaining it cleanly

[liveoilfree]

But the cost of making Hydrogen is much higher than the cost of charging a plug-in car.

[RootsTreeStump]

yeah but what happens when your electric car runs out of charge in the middle of nowhere? Even a solar panneled roof would not be enough to save you... Or how about a long roadtrip in an electric vehicle? You can't just stop for 5 min recharge and be on your merry way... it's more like 8 hours and then go back to driving... you really need to stop acting like electric vehicles are the best thing since sliced bread... they make sense for daily commutes but not so much for road trips...

[liveoilfree]

We've driven over 600,000 miles in Electric cars, and so far, never run out of electric. But I've run out of gas, when I was inexperienced. If you use energy, you have to realize how much you use.

[accountsuck2]

I believe he meant in one run, not accumulated miles. There is a vast difference and you know that. How confident are you at traveling long distances in your EV?  Don't dodge the question.

[liveoilfree]

In 600,000 miles of EV driving (HondaEV, 2 EV1, RangerEV, 3 RAV4-EV) we've never run out of electric "in the middle of nowhere".

Electric power is everywhere, and an EV can plug in anywhere.

[austinclem1]

yeah its not like the fact that they improve it constantly shows that it will have "servicing issues" in the future its for the exact opposite they have to perfect it first

[RootsTreeStump]

He makes me so mad because he is just making up facts.The only thing he is sure about is the mileage of the car & is making so many assumptions just on that fact. There is no way of knowing that honda was replacing the batteries or the fuel cell and even if they were do u know how complicated that would be? They would may as well just give you a brand new car. Honda is just collecting data. He thinks he is so smart. This just demonstrates how little people actually know about alternative fuels!

[liveoilfree]

Actually, Honda didn't replace the HondaEV as it has to replace the fuel cells; that should tell you SOMETHING unless you're just stone unwilling to understand.

[RootsTreeStump]

you're the one that seems NOT to UNDERSTAND. replacing a fuel cell is a VERY COMPLICATED PROCESS! It would be easier for honda to give you a brand new vehicle... Oh and who said they were even replacing the fuel cell? YOU MADE THAT UP ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT WHENEVER THE CAR WAS SERVICED ITS FUEL CELL WAS REPLACED... Honda was collecting data from the car like what type of gas mileage it was getting etc. EVERYTHING IN YOUR VIDEO IS BASED OFF OF ASSUMPTIONS!

[liveoilfree]

Hydrogen must be manufactured; that takes energy, or processing natural gas, which is itself a carrier of energy.

Hydrogen is a fetish, a belief structure, that has become a cure-all and end-all.

But in reality, most Hydrogen that is produced today is used by petroleum refineries. Hydrogen is energy-intensive, and it's dirty energy.

[liveoilfree]

When Honda serviced our HondaEV, it didn't replace the car or the battery pack, it just collected data and left it in the field.

The fact that Honda has to physically reclaim and replace fuel cell cars means there are issues that are not field-addressiblel; those are not "data collection" issues, but serious problems.

[RootsTreeStump]

HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY DO???!!! the answer is you don't so stop saying it like it is a fact! Second of all... Honda has produced two clean ways to obtain hydrogen (if you actually knew your stuff you would know this) 1) using solar energy splitting water through the process of electrolosis (wow big word i bet you don't know it) and 2) splitting the hydrogen atoms off of your home's natural gas line for a home fueling station the energy required to do that coming from solar cells.

[liveoilfree]

Check on the COST. One kg of H2 had the energy equivalent of 35 kWh, but takes much more kWh to produce (by the laws of nature) and compress.

A kg of technical-grade H2 costs about $17

[RootsTreeStump]

like i said earlier... cost doesn't matter because cost will come down... once hydrogen cars become somewhat normal... the cost of hydrogen will come down because more fueling stations will be able to sell it... jeeze i don't even know why i'm explaining any of this anymore cause it all comes down to supply and demand... basic economics really

[liveoilfree]

The cost of Hydrogen will NEVER come down, it depends on the cost of ENERGY.

One kg of H2 contains 35 kWh of electric energy; obviously, it takes more than that to create it! Unless you live in a dream world.

So if it takes, say, 120 kWh to make, compress and store technical-grade H2, it costs over $12/kg Gallon Gas Equivalent.

[trevor0195]

hes right rootstreestump. wat ur saying rele makes absoloutly no sence whatsoever. what does the number of fueling stations have to do with cost? and explain to me how that is related to supply and demand? hydrogen is just a natural gas like what we are using now only much more rare so we would be in the same situation with hydrogen as we are with gasoline. it will never get anywhere anytime soon

[cecilbdml]

Hydrogen is RARE?! You might want to try that one again. It is more common than silicon, and available by simple electrical separation. And you might try looking at a dictionary now and again...improper spelling ruins the viability of your argument.

[trevor0195]

@cecilbdml lol im sorry that i used shorthand writing for a couple words.... since that seems to be such a big deal to you. its not rare i never said it was. i just said that the ready supply of just straight hydrogen for this purpose is less then oil and gas at the time. there is massive amounts of hydrogen in the oceans alone but it needs to be chemically separated which costs money which isnt worth it right now if gas costs less then hydrogen

[emforty2]

again where's the big 3[no more] on this....WAY BEHIND again !!

scrambling to get the VOLT out if ever yeah!! by the time its one in 3 years is obsolete

[akie64]

The FCX Clarity from Honda is the future now.

What do you expect, a car to go into production before it has been perfected?, that's not the Honda way.

[RootsTreeStump]

absolutely right!!! this guy seems to have no idea what he is talking about

[liveoilfree]

The HondaEV was running fine, and could have been sold to willing buyers. These fuel cell fiascos can't EVER be sold, because they cost $1M each to build.

Why waste time and effort on a junk with only 3 year life, at most, when an Electric car is running fine after 6 years and 100K miles?

[RootsTreeStump]

has honda ever built junk? what is in your head is junk... i don't know who brain washed you but this is pretty sad

[liveoilfree]

What's really sad is that you can't buy an oil-free car, which was last sold in Nov., 2002.

For all the "hydrogen hype", there is no FCX for sale, and there never will be because of the cost.

Yet we are still driving oil-free plug-in Toyota RAV4-EV, which were last sold to us in Nov. 200. Hydrogen Hype has moved us BACKWARDS.

[akie64]

I would tend to trust Honda's forthought and excellence than "liveoilfree' boring narrow mindedness.

Do you really think a company as brilliant as Honda would be that daft to sink so much effort, time and money into this technology?

[liveoilfree]

Yes.

[RootsTreeStump]

you're and idiot and you don't have any proof that any of your opinions are based in fact

[liveoilfree]

We're DRIVING a plug-in car that was last sold in Nov., 2002.

And you will NEVER be buying a fuel cell car, unless you want to spend $1M for the car and $1M for the charging station.

[sw3lude]

That is what Honda does. Give the car out for consumer testing. Then pull it back out, fix issues and then produce it. Toyota and Nissan do the same. For the other's not so much.

[norbique]

This video is old. Take a look at the new FCX.

[HAL11000]

Different body, same problems.

[liveoilfree]

The new FCX also can't be sold; it's only on a lease, and will probably have the same problems -- less than 3 years before fuel cell stack has to be replaced.

[DrBrazil1]

There was never a safety issue. The EV+ was working flawlessly and NI-MH is not volatile. Honda doesn't want people driving a car that is more efficient than their hybrids or fool-cell vehicles. See 'who killed the electric car?'

[gregscottmaher]

Fuel cells....Batteries Really could be called the same thing. How about a "Fuel-Cell-Battery"? A "Plug-In Fuel Cell" You don't fill it up with Hydrogen, instead fill it up with water and electricity. Create your own hydrogen. It is just a way to store electricity. "I want a Plug-In Hybrid"

[DrBrazil1]

By turning electricity to hydrogen, you lose 3/4t of the energy.

[gregscottmaher]

I used to think fuel cells was the fizzizle, but I watched a film called "Who killed the Electric Car?" It changed my mind. Fuel cells will be good for trucks and Trains someday. The average car can use batteries. "I Want a Plug-In Hybrid!!" "I don't want to go to the gas station anymore!!"

[liveoilfree]

Don't you remember the "five miracles" needed for fuel cells? Not one miracle has happened yet. Fuel cells are still bogus and B.S.

If you believe in fuel cells and hydrogen, why not use CNG? It's cheap, plentiful, doesn't need a fuel cell, works on buses, trucks, cars, and gets HOV sticker as a clean car. Well??

[DanFrederiksen]

maybe when asking about hydrogen fuel cost, ask them if they wouldn't rather pay whatever the equivalent electric cost to drive an EV. the contrast should be great. someone like her seems to be innocently oblivious to the issues so kind information will probably win her over much more so than unspoken ridicule

[DanFrederiksen]

your enthusiasm for the fuel cell is palpaple :)

you ask good questions but as someone else also picked up on you seem to have impatient fury that might at times lead you to make mistakes in your rush to score against them. don't get me wrong I often get mad at the obtuseness but maybe strong loving conviction will better defeat evil than fury. don't retain bitterness

[mianersiyok]

Now now, all this bickering will not solve anything...

Only a happy ending will. That happy ending is all electric!

The problem with companies is they don't always see the need for different technology in different areas of the country. They want to mass produce something everyone in every state can use, thats why they ingnore solar electricity and the EV(which are optimal in south western states) those are not as viable in north eastern states, but they can be improved.

[JackDragu]

How was the Honda EV+ compared to other EVs?

[liveoilfree]

The HondaEV was wonderful. It used basically the same technology as the RAV4-EV, but didn't have as sophisticated a Battery Management System. We got up to 140 miles on a charge, and drove ours over 60,000 miles before Honda confiscated and crushed it. Shame on Honda.

[LovePontiac]

Lmao! The end was great. "They probably spent a million dollars on this piece of crap."

[HAL11000]

Great poast, it shows how much people know about PEMFCs.They have been having trouble with fuel cells since the beginning of the space program. Fuel cells are nothing but bullshit.

[CroakerMD]

Ahh a great comment from a staggering scientific intellect. I will let your comment stand on its own merits.

[liveoilfree]

It's literally true. The Anode is protected from carbon contamination by technical-grade H2, but it degrades anyway; but the Cathode uses Oxygen from the air (in the space program, they use tech grade O2), and the Carbon contamination makes the FC wear out in 3 years or less. Imagine a car like that.

[mianersiyok]

Oh, I can imagine it...

CH-CHING! for the car and fuel industries...

Constant buying and empty wallets for consumers.

[HAL11000]

Yet despite their successful use for four decades in the space program, and many billions of dollars of research and development funds expended over the years for their improvement and refinement, fuel cells have thus far found little use in broader commercial applications. The reasons for this are threefold. First, in ordinary terrestrial applications, a practical power system must last years, not just the few weeks required to support a manned space flight.

[HAL11000]

Second, on Earth, the oxygen supply for the fuel cell must come from the atmosphere, which contains not only nitrogen (which decreases the fuel cell efficiency compared to a pure oxygen source), but carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, and many other pollutants. Even in trace form, such pollutants can contaminate the catalysts used in the fuel cells and cause permanent degradation, ultimately rendering the system inoperable.

[HAL11000]

Finally, and decisively, fuel cells are very expensive. For NASA, which spends hundreds of millions of dollars on every shuttle launch, it makes little difference if its 10 kilowatt fuel cell system costs $100,000, a million dollars, or ten million dollars. For a member of the public, however, such costs matter a great deal.

[HAL11000]

If your blunt accusation states that I am ignoramus, tell me what I don't know. Why don't you teach me something new? If you say you are more knowledgeable on the subject, why don't you demonstrate your knowledge. Oh yes, you can't, you don't know anything about the subject.

[JackDragu]

Fuel cells should be abandoned. There are more efficient and cost effective tecnologies that don't need decades of R&D and a trillion dollar hydrogen infrastructure. If you haven't connected the dots yet, the fuel cell car is really diverting people's attention to technologies that work. If people started driving electric cars now. Think how much money the oil companies will lose. There wouldn't any reason to invade foreign countries for their oil.

ITS A SCAM!

[HAL11000]

If you wanted me to bring up a alternative to the PEMFC in this particular argument, you could have politely asked instead of automatically calling me an ignorant individual without a single articulate reason. I see that, yourself, have no alterative to offer. You offer no solutions to the argument as of yet, and what does that make you?

[HAL11000]

To answer you question. The best option for power grid storage media would be the Sodium sulfur battery. NaS battery cells are supposedly 89% efficient and have a pulse power capability "six times their continuous rating for 30 seconds". This attribute apparently enables the NaS battery to be economically used in combined power quality and suitable to assisting the grid duing peak hours.

[HAL11000]

For transport applications. The Ni-Mh batteries , Lithium-ion batteries, Zinc-air batteries, and the new and hopefully successful Altar nano-safe batteries will be perfect for transportation. I like the nano-safe batteries because they can be recharged within 10 minutes.

By the way, we are better off with BEVs than PEMFC vehicles

greyfalcon (dot) net/hydrogen4.png

[1erLespoissons]

CroakerMD, you are the epitome of hypocrisy. You better straiten up your morals and stop embarrassing yourself if you want to be recognized as a decent person.

[MPaulHolmes]

CroakerMD, you are so naughty! I reject your premise that GM cannot produce a reliable internal combustion engine. It's just that it puts out noxious fumes, and electric cars don't. They work right now, and are like 3 times more efficient than using hydrogen.

[gimplar]

Just because it isn't feasible now doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted. The energy industry is heading towards a crisis and I applaud companies like Honda for going out on a limb and attempting to introduce fuel cells to the public.

I'm sure the free market will be much more effective at finding a solution than NASA (a bloated bureaucratic entity who can't seem to make up its mind on ANYTHING)

[DrBrazil1]

If you go through the entire hydrogen chain starting with AC-DC conversion, electrolysis, compression, or liquefaction, transportation, storage, re-conversion the electricity by fuel cells with subsequent DC-AC, there are additional losses in every process stage. This is physics, not poor handling. And as the laws of physics are eternal, there was no past, there is no present, and there will be no future for a hydrogen economy.

greyfalcon (dot) net/h2illusion.png

Conclusion: Go electric

[mianersiyok]

Thats what people have been trying to get through others heads the whole time. There already is an affordable alternative. It's electricity! It doesnt make sense that they want to convert something two times before it turns into electricity. When you can convert something once into electricy! Fossil fuels to produce hydrogen, hydrogen and oxygen to electricity. Why do that when you already have electricity in your home for less than 4-6 dollars a gallon?