Refutation of AOMIN and a Defense of Prayers to the Saints

[Providential1611]

This video is nonsense. The basic definition of Necromancy is to communicate with the dead. That is what Rome teaches. The sorry excuse that we are simply asking people who are "closer to God" to pray for us is a sidestep. It is communicating with the dead.

And the dead are not "closer to God" than the Living. Real Christians, not Papists have the Holy Spirit in them. We go to Fod through the Name of Christ. We have full access and assurance of faith.

Rome's doctrine is unneccesary

[vichobreakthewall]

@Providential1611 So people who had passed away are what to God? Dead? because I know that God is a God of the living not of the dead, therefore according to you people who are not with us now are like non existant to God...

[Providential1611]

@vichobreakthewall No, their spirit are with the Lord in paradise. But simply because they have changed geographically does not mean they are "closer to God" in relationship. God lives in all believers, and our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit. How much "closer" can God be to me than to live inside my body and my heart? And the departed cannot hear not see what is going on here.

[vichobreakthewall]

@Providential1611 How do you interpret when God says that only the ones who are holy can see God?

[Providential1611]

@vichobreakthewall Christ said that blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see Gopd. And Peter said that we have purified our hearts by faith-Acts 15:9

[TheNew181]

I will be happy to. see ya soon

Dios ti bendiga

[TheNew181]

Think about it. How can a dead man hear you if he is in another place? does he have a cell phone so you can call him? There are more problems with this philosophical view than just divination.

[gnrhead]

If you want to meaningfully engage in a conversation, then message me through YOUTUBE. I don't do combox battles. Hard to answer something extensively in such a tiny box. Thanks and GOD BLESS!

[medievalman86]

my one question is this(im probably not making the connection yet) How can a living person be sure the dead saints well heare if the dead may still be in purgatory and not in the Bossom of CHrist?

[njcatholic]

asking the saints to pray for us is no different than asking someone on earth to do the same. I dont see why non-catholics have a problem with that.

[PatristicEchoes]

So, AOMIN's position is people in Heaven can't pray for us and/or it's sinful for us to ask them to pray for us? If that's what they're asserting, it doesn't sound like a very Christian image of Heaven. I can't imagine God telling us that praying for others or asking others to pray for us is sinful.

What's truly amazing to me is why so many Christians are opposed the belief of the Communion of Saints.

[curtishouse78]

There was just one question that had me thinking when I was watching your video. You mentioned that when somebody's heart stops beating, they are dead. What of those people that are clinically dead for around a minute or so and are brought back to life. What do you think happens to them? Is there any Catholic position on this or is it just completely speculation?

[cathaustralia]

OK Best wishes with your work and mission. In regards to Baptism of the dead,,it is not appropriate..Baptism is the entry point to receive God's grace while on Earth. After we have passed we are entirely at God's mercy and will be judged accordingly. We can only Pray to God and ask that the has Mercy on all the Souls of the Departed.

[cathaustralia]

William are you considering entering the Priesthood.

[gnrhead]

Anything can happen good brother:)

GOD BLESS

[prchdaword]

since nobody "dead" is really "dead" but eternally alive (whether in heaven or hell) couldn't your logic support baptism for the dead? After all, nobody is really dead right?

[gnrhead]

I would disagree with Catholics that perpetuate that baptism for the dead is a logically sound doctrine. I do not agree with it because once you have passed from this life there is no SECOND CHANCE for the remission of sins. Either you go to heaven or hell. PERIOD. Purgatory is simply purification for those that go to heaven. The concept of there being a proxy baptism so that one can have their sins remitted in the afterlife in order to enter heaven is ridiculous. I disagree with that.

[OneTrueChurch]

isn't this mormon teaching?

[mgk22]

But William isnt there a passage in the bible that even said "Whats the point on being baptised on behalf of the dead if there is no resurrection or something like that, made into some allusion to Maccabbees 2

[gnrhead]

I don't believe it's an allusion to 2Macc 12 whatsoever at all. 2Macc is in reference to prayers for those that have departed, the passage in Corinthians is speaking about baptism for the dead and it's not clear if it's a literal baptism or not. It's a passage that has been interpreted quite differently before.

[gnrhead]

I have read a minority of Catholic apologists that have attempted to use this passage to support purgatory but it simply does not work. There is no way a proxy baptism can support the doctrine of purgatory. Think about it. We believe baptism saves us by cleansing us of sin among other things. After death there is no SECOND chance to be saved, those in purgatory are ALREADY saved--simply undergoing purification. This is why this passage does not support purgatory. GOD BLESS

[cyprianofcarthage]

I'm pretty sure that those in Hell aren't glorified.

[SeptemberCatholic18]

Not really. Baptism exists to cleanse the soul. Those in heaven are not only already clean, but they are also already justified and dwelling with God.

There is, therefore, no need to baptize the dead as you describe it here. It would be an unnecessary, vain use of a sacrament.

On the other hand, prayer as a mode of communication with those in heaven does not violate Christian theological reason. In fact, it only makes sense that we communicate with those in heaven--God's holy friends.

[prchdaword]

Can you show me an example in the Bible where it is taught by the apostles or by Christ that we are to communicate with our dead brethren?

[gnrhead]

First things first, the Bible never advocates Sola Scriptura. Therefore I don't have to STICK to the Scripture to show such a practice in the early Church. The Bible, though, is clear in "Revelation" that our prayers are received by departed saints in a certain priestly function in heaven. The saints are aware of our prayers, taking them to Christ in an intercessory manner. Outside of Scripture the early Church evidence for such is even more abundant. GOD BLESS

[prchdaword]

well, I've already sent my opening statement asserting where the Bible does advocate Sola Scriptura....

[TheNew181]

Show me said passages please.

So I don't misrepresent your position in my video response.

[gnrhead]

Sir, I apologize once again. I told you that if you have a certain question then you can direct it to my Youtube inbox. I apologize that I just don't have enough time to engage you in a debate. I have at least 4 debates on my slate as well as talks that I have lined up. But if you have a certain question then you can send it to my Youtube inbox.

[SeptemberCatholic18]

Your mistake is in asserting that only the Bible is a legitimate source to justify this practice. Apostolic tradition, which also derives from the apostles, should most definitely be considered.

Firstly, Revelation 5:8 reveals to us that those in heaven are certainly aware of our prayers. And gnrhead did a great job of showing that they are not dead.

Secondly, tradition from early Fathers dating as far back as 157 AD support this practice.

The question is, why shouldn't we pray to the saints?

[prchdaword]

First of all, the doctrine of Sola Scriptura does not mean that the Bible is the ONLY source of knowledge for the faith; rather it asserts it as the only infallible source. Secondly, nobody denies that the souls of physically dead people are not "alive" either with God or in hell. Rev.5:8 only shows that God is aware of the prayers of the entire Church that have been made (Saints are not only the dead in Christ). there are many practices that have an early date but we don't do them...

[prchdaword]

why shouldn't we pray to the saints? One, Scripture only prescibes prayer to God through Christ. If the communion of the saints has apostolic origin as you claim, then you should have no problem showing from the works that the apostles left behind that they endorsed the practice. Also, show that the Bible does not consider physically dead people, Christian or not, a form of consulting the dead which is forbidden in Deut 18.

[mgk22]

show us where it says that intercession is wrong for the saints. funny how you say that sola scriptura means the bible is the only infallible source when yet that asserts we go off just what the bible says when the bible says to go to other sources and hold to tradition not written in it and then you say you dont hold to those early practices im in protest against what you've said thats for sure.

[SeptemberCatholic18]

Duet 18 does not forbid communion with the saints. It forbids the summoning of spirits in an attempt to foresee the future, or gain some other magical advantage.

On the other hand, prayer to the saints is well-grounded.

Rev 5:8 reveals to us that those in heaven are aware of the prayers, otherwise, how could they offer them to God?

Lastly, I can show you multiple examples of tradition where prayer to the saints is prescribed. But we all know you'll just ignore apostolic tradition.

[medievalman86]

Rev 5:8 doesnt say that the saints are only aware of prayers because they receive a email from the living. SO how and why they are aware of the prayers is not known?

[SeptemberCatholic18]

Those in heaven must be aware of the prayers, otherwise they would not be able to deliver them to Christ.

People who pray to the saints make the assumption that the saint is already in heaven. Otherwise, the prayer is ineffective. Catholics are a better-safe-than-sorry kind of people.

[gorgonzolaaa]

"Show me where we can pray to saints, and only use the Bible, because.. Sola Scriptura!"

"I don't have to show you anything. Show me where I can't."

"I'm going to exert my own authority here, because, well, I can and you can't, because Sola Scriptura means the only infallible source, not the only source, and, well, ignore original definitions, and the literal translation, of 'Sola Scriptura'..."

Come on, now...

[gorgonzolaaa]

What if Sola Scripture were doctrine before Jesus Christ? What if before any of the prophets? And what of the future? Are you denying God the ability to enlighten?

[gnrhead]

To be quite honest, without being rude at all this is the type of argument that Protestants simply don't get. You can sit them down and show them many passages over and at the end they will simply say "Oh well show me where consulting the dead is accepted if Dt 18 says you can't consult the dead" EVEN after you spend SO Much time pointing out that that passage is speaking of magical rituals in a COMPLETELY NON CONNECTED manner.

[gnrhead]

After you show them that there is a difference between those alive in GOD and those DEAD in GOD they still won't get it. Then you can show them Patristic evidence and then they will ask for something written BY a certain date. It's skirting around the issue and desperation at it's best. The Early Christians had no issue with intercession of the saints. The two ancient branches--Catholics&Orthodox evince that. Protestantism on the other hand is today's new flavor. I'll stick to Christ's church.

[1Hope4All]

The Saints are NOT DEAD. They are more alive than you and I.

If you really read Scripture you will know that Jesus never referred to the people who passed on as friends of God as "DEAD." Every time Jesus used the word "dead" for someone who has passed on He meant literally "DEAD" as in the soul is "dead" in Hell. Even though we know that true "death" does not exist because the souls in hell are alive otherwise they would not feel the pain of hell.

The Saints are ALIVE in Heaven with God.

[prchdaword]

nobody said that the SOULS of BODILY DECEASED Christians are dead. I am not disagreeing with that at all. I am disagreeing with the practice of PRAYING TO BODILY DECEASED HUMAN BEINGS WITH ALIVE SOULS WHO ARE NOT GOD.