ok, since CCM is sinful, how about we remove every song that wasn't sung by the earliest Church, since they are all sinful if they are less than, say, 1000 years old.
@dmaster254 Where did I say it was sinful? You put words in my mouth. I said its not Christian, it's worldly and carnal. It's not about Christ, but about how the artists and listeners feel. And it has less to do with the time of the writing, and more to do with the style, which is the obvious point I was making, and you missed. I wonder did you watch it at all, or just write a review from the title?
So, are you telling me that when I write a song and pour out my heart in doing so... that I am sinning? Watch my videos and tell me... whats wrong with this?
@davidgoliath09 I'm not telling YOU anything. I am saying that CCM, for the most part, regardless of how much 'heart' one pours into it, is worldly and carnal, and specifically, intentionally copies the world's wicked music. As I said in the video, consider Nadab and Abihu-I am sure what they did was with a good heart, but it wasn't what God demanded: sanctified, separated worship. Instead, they worshiped Him as the Egyptian priests worshiped. How we feel doesn't matter.
Music is always relating to PRAISE. Worship is always relating to falling down before God. (with head bowed usually. ). This is why we note that when a man would fall down before an angel, the angel always told him to do it not, for I am just a fellow servant, or some such thing.
@whisperingsage Thanks for your reply. re "Worship is always relating to falling down before God. (with head bowed usually" - do you then accept the Islamic posturing and carefully prescribed method of praying, to be worship? It has to be precisely followed according to the instructions or it is not regarded as 'prayer' or worship.
@ukulelemike Forgive me brother, but what exactly do you claim is "worship of a false idol"? and which "idol" are you speaking of? There are millions of idols in this world, but the truth is, it is you that make them an idol and than can be absolutely anything! If you choose to make your particular flavour of worship music, your "idol", then that is your choice. That flavour may be monastic chanting, country gospel, 19 century hymns, 21 century songs to the Lord, or even silence
@faithbyloving You mentioned the worship that the Islamists offer to Allah as bowing, and asked if it is worship. It IS worship, of a false idol, Allah. Worship must be in a state of humility before the Lord. No, I don't believe we must always be on our face literally, but we must be bowed in spirit and heart. Again, our standard must be Bible: nowhere is music used as part of worship-we invented that. Music is to speak OF God, or to praise Him. Look it up.
@ukulelemike re Islamists and prostration - well thankfully we are in agreement about that. We both know that they worship Baal (Hubal the name of Allah). However, the point was you said that bowing was worship and I was simply pointing out that outward appearance or bodily postures do not necessarily reflect worship. Jesus said they that worship Him, must worship in Spirit and in Truth. It is therefore the position of the heart and not the body.
@ukulelemike re "nowhere is music used as part of worship-we invented that" - this statement is unscriptural. There is no scripture to support his position whatsoever. It merely reflects what you have been taught or your own narrow preferences. It is not from scripture. You said "our standard must be Bible" - but this is not from the Bible. If it is, please quote the chapter and verse?
@ukulelemike There is no "right" flavour of music when it comes to praise or worship, except the music that is played in Heaven and we don't know what that is! It may bear absolutely NO RESEMBLANCE to the music that is played here on earth. It may not be in a language that you recognise or with tonalities, harmonies or rythmns with which you are familiar. Yet it may be the "right" music for God.
@faithbyloving Actually, the New Testament refers a few times to the types of music the early church was directed to sing to one another, and to themselves, and to God: Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. The problem with what the CCM world uses is that it directly imitates the sounds of worldly styles which are already associated with certain lifestyles. There is also a great amount of fruit to be found in the CCM community, that they follow the same lines.
@ukulelemike Many of them, in their concerts, sing secular songs by wicked musicians, such as the Beatles, Jimi Hendrix and others. They perform in secular movies, like POD doing music for 'Little Nicky", a movie where the hero was the son of the devil. These musicians perform music and follow after the world. If there is any 'flavor' of Christian music, it is any that is distinctly different from the popular secular styles, not imitating them. It's called 'holiness'.
@ukulelemike re "If there is any 'flavor' of Christian music, it is any that is distinctly different from the popular secular styles, not imitating them. It's called 'holiness' " - that's just the point - there is no "distinct style" that is different from music heard in the world. All church music, including your own, borrows heavily from musicalities which are heard commonly in the world, including scales, harmonies, rythmns, time, nuances, etc.
@ukulelemike It is self delusion to believe that any music you play is unique to music used for the worship of God. If it were actually true, you might have a point, but it isn't the case. You may prefer to believe that it is, to justify your particular church or church music and by all means if that is what you believe, then ok, but please don't condemn your brothers and sisters in Christ who worship with styles different from your own.
@ukulelemike re "The problem with what the CCM world uses is that it directly imitates the sounds of worldly styles which are already associated with certain lifestyles. There is also a great amount of fruit to be found in the CCM community, that they follow the same lines" - I think brother, you are being naive in the extreme and using generalisations judgementally against your brothers and sisters in the church, many of whom may be equally or more devout than yourself.
@ukulelemike While it is true that there are excesses of lifestyle and sinful lifestyles occuring in the wider church, including apostasy, it is self delusion to be pointing the finger at another group of people in the wider church judgementally accusing them of being sinners or worshipping idols. The Bible tells us not to judge, or not to judge before the time. Remember, God can see in on the heart, while you are looking on 'the outward appearance' as you "perceive" evil.
@ukulelemike As I have listened to some of your own music and playing, I too can obseve that it "imitates the sounds of worldly styles", that do not exist in church. The reality is that there is no music at all that is played in churches that has no relationship to that played globally in the world. You will find it extremely difficult to produce a music in church that does not borrow from known scales, rythmns, time, melodies and harmonies.
@ukulelemike Your narrow view of your own music, which precludes the music of other churches, would come very 'unstuck' and find yourself in difficulty, once you transfer your particular prejudices to other times and cultures! You would not be able to identify which you were to decide was "worldly" and which "not".
For instance if I were to ask you which hindustani style should be used for church music in India, how would you know which was "worldly" and which not?
@ukulelemike May I also say that according to Jesus Himself, sin starts in the heart and proceeds from there. He said it is not what goes "into" a man that defiles him, but that which proceeds from his heart. It is not therefore a particular style of music, eg folk, country, gospel, classical, hindustani, chinese, malayam, norwegian, aboriginal, that is inherently idol worship, but the Intent of the Heart.
@ukulelemike After all, who are you to say to an African that his style of worship music is worshipping idols, when you cannot possibly know his devotion to the Lord or the love he is expressing towards God in his music?
@ukulelemike The nearest we CAN get to the "right" music is the ancient Jewish Temple music. All other music is worship of false idols as you say! This is because God instructed that music to be played and no other. For this reason then, you should immediately put stop the music that you have been playing and put down your instrument, until you have learned to play and sing Hebrew Jewish music.
@faithbyloving Actually, if you read the Bible, I believe you will find that it was David who instructed the music to be played, not by directive of God.
@ukulelemike re "David who instructed the music to be played, not by directive of God" - "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness" 2 Timothy 3:16
To take your position would be a fundamental error of Bible reading. Are you suggesting that David was worshipping with Contemporary Music and therefore no better than his secular contemporaries, in that he was worshipping as you call it, "a false idol"?
@ukulelemike Having heard some of your music, I noticed that you use "blues notes" - this is Sinful and Worldly and indicates praise to man, not God. You should not use "blues notes" because they are inherently sinful. Remember, a little leaven, leaveneth the whole lump!
@faithbyloving I don't claim to be perfect-I am learning, as all Christians should be, and am working on learning better to play correctly. Growth. None of us are perfect-I'm just not trying to make my imperfections acceptable to God.
@ukulelemike But my brother "I'm just not trying to make my imperfections acceptable to God" - we can NEVER make our judgementalism towards our brothers and sisters in the wider church, "acceptable to God"! In fact, the Bible says that when we judge others in this way, we too will be judged, likewise!
I don't know if you are understanding what I am trying to convey here, but I hope that you can see that from my view point, you have presented me with a video that is so ambiguous that it doesn't help me at all. Yet, again I say if you are right then please correct me. I am willing to learn from you.
@faithbyloving Unfortunately, with a 10 minute limit, I am limited in what I can convey. I'd be happy to try to do more with a PM through Youtube, if you like.
@whisperingsage I have been in some of these churches & left at the end of the service without anyone speaking to me once. The point is when people worship God in spirit & in truth, the love of God should be evident & testify that they have been with Christ & flow out to visitors. It is therefore no wonder that such churches are rapidly diminishing in attendance, and are closing in the UK every week. So we must look to the fruit of a worshipping community to know if its worship is accepted.
His hymn book music would have been contemporary to the music that existed in the world at the time it was written, but should we then regard that music as worldy because it was in the style of the culture and time of the people who wrote it?
@faithbyloving I suggest you look up the word "Contemporary" in Webster's. It has two basic meanings, the second of which is to be marked by characteristics of the present period; modern; current. This is the one it refers to in CCM-it is modern, by design, which means it must continually change to remain current and contemporary, according to the cultural fads. as secular music changes, so must CCM, to stay modern. It is man-driven, not God-driven.
@whisperingsage Thank you for your replies. I appreciate that you took to the time to answer! I remain to be convinced however that you are right. It is not that I insist that I am right and you are wrong, its just that I don't currently think like you do about it. When the Lord gathers His people, one priest shall be taken and the other left, one communicant shall be taken and the other left, one theologian taken and the other left,...and what shall be the deciding factor? musical style?
@whisperingsage No, the deciding factor will not be that you were "faithful" in singing an old style of music with your hymns or that you didn't ever sing that "dreadful new contemporary Christian music"! The deciding factor will be this: "I never knew you" or "well done my good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of the Lord"
all the other things are outward appearances & all are 'things of this world', but when God judges He will judge by looking in on our Heart, faith & obedience
For me, all music is related tonally, rythmically and harmonically. It can be very diverse and include each of these 3 elements in greater or lesser degree. However, they are simply basic technical elements of music. I once spoke to a friend who said that the only legitimate church music was from an old hymn book of his own preference! However, I doubt his preference would have been shared by the early church or by many churches in the east, whose style would be very different!
@faithbyloving If you are a heavy student of music, I would recommend the video series, "Music: for Good or Evil" by David Cloud. He goes deeply into the differences of the styles of music and the various differences. Don't know that I agree 100%, but still, good information. But again, the issue at stake is sanctification. To sanctify something means to set it apart for use for God Alone. That must include music, not just lyrics.
@whisperingsage Remember that "man looks on the outward appearance" (style of song, appearance of people, clothes, education, job, family, etc), but God looks in on the heart" In the NT we had a similar issue, regarding the circumcision and the uncircumcision and we are told that true circumcision is circumcision of the Heart, not of the flesh. In other words you can have a church full of people (and indeed there are many such churches over the world) singing traditional hymns with no growth
@faithbyloving Sanctification is why I don't use my church building as a general meeting hall, or have AA meetings or such-because it is sanctified as the meeting place of the church. To use it for other purposes would break that sanctification. So it is with music-the style is important because even it must be sanctified. Nadab and Abihu were killed because they tried to worship God in an unsanctified manner, using worship styles from Egypt, and God didn't allow it.
@whisperingsage In fact there are many traditional hymn singing churches which are closing down. Little of no evangelisation takes place from some of these churches as the communicants are too afraid to mention their faith to anyone. Paul however writes: "I am not ashamed of the cross of Christ because it is the power of God unto salvation".
Please don't think that I am being awkward or pedantic. I'm not at all and as I said at the beginning of my message, if you are right and what i do is sinful or wrong, then I am willing to be corrected and if necessary never play in church again. I do not want to offend the Lord. It is just that your video rather than clarifies your position, leaves me with more questions and a rather confusing and ambiguous position. It may be that you don't think in these terms about music, but I do.
@faithbyloving The point is, the church has allowed the world to slip into the church, and it has no place there. We want to imitate the things of the world, including its music, to try and be 'relevant', yet, what is more relevant than the Word of God, and the music that He has obviously blessed for over 500 years? Its about holiness and sanctification, and we cannot sanctify for God something that is sanctified for the devil, with blatantly wicked intent.
@whisperingsage I am 100% with you on Santification and Holiness. That is our aim and desire, though few of us attain it. All of us are sinners, but saved in faith by the Blood of Jesus Christ. I also agree that there is nothing more relevant than the Word of God. However, I think that associating a particular style of music of any kind with the Word of God, is if it has a special authority or blessing, is an error.
@faithbyloving COnsider the story of Nadab and Abihu in context to the subject: they chose a type of worship that was beforehand used by pagans, offered it to YHWH, and God rejected it outright. Now we use CCM to worship God, a style of music invented and used by pagans, witches, homosexuals, satanists and durg abusers for entertainment, we change the words a bit, and >presto<, we expect God to be pleased with it. How is it different?
@ukulelemike Hello. re "COnsider the story of Nadab..." - This is a serious consideration indeed! I don't belittle it or dismiss it. From what I can see on this text, without extensive reference to biblical commentaries etc, the "strange fire" that was offered was an offering made that was not only not accepted by the Lord, but was in disobedience to His instructions. It may have been related to the "strange incense" commanded against in Exodus 30:9
@ukulelemike Exodus 30:9 "You shall not offer strange incense on it, or a burnt offering, or a grain offering; nor shall you pour a drink offering on it." - and therefore in direct disobedience to the Lord's instructions. If this is what I am doing, then I must stop it immediately! However, when you then go on to say "we use CCM to worship God, a style of music invented & used by pagans, witches, homosexuals, satanists & durg abusers for entertainment" - this is your opinion rather than fact
@ukulelemike Historically, it is the other way round. Music of all kinds has been abstracted from the church environment and used for worldly purposes. This is true of any kind of music. For instance, gospel music which was created by black people during times of slavery and used in deep devotion to worship the Lord, was a style which was later used for non Christian/worship purposes. If we go far back in history, we find that monastic chanting used to worship the Lord affected worldly music
@ukulelemike There has always interchange of musical nuances between the church and worldy music, as music progressed and developed. You may say that this is evil, but isn't that a bit extreme? For instance, we rarely if ever these days sing hymns which are written in the 17th Century Baroquial style which was used in churches of that period. Instead most of our oldest hymn tunes are 19 century in style. This is because of the development of musical styles in the west, but was this evil?
@whisperingsage The truth is there is no acceptable worship except presenting our bodies as a living sacrifice: Romans 12:1 "Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship." In other words it isn't the "style" God is impressed with or that pleases God, it is the state of your heart.
What type of music would you describe as not 'worldly' or 'appropriate' in worship? For instance if you are an Indian Christian, would it be worldy music in worship if it was in the Classical Indian music style, or in China, in the chinese tradition? Or if we re-created some of the ancient jewish Temple music would this be acceptable and if it was would the style that you think is acceptable, still be acceptable if the ancient Jewish Temple music was available?
@faithbyloving You might visit some of the smaller Christian churches in various parts of the world-most of them use traditional hymns in their own languages. I have been in churches in Romania where this is the case. And some of those hymns were written in other countries, and used the same style. So apparently, most of them feel that they style of hymns is appropriate. Christianity is not cultural, nor should it be. When we make it so is when it becomes worldly.
Certainly in the Old Testament, it is clear that the Temple had its own musicians for Temple worship. King David even danced in worship. There doesn't appear to be any prohibition about worshipping the Lord with music that I can see, but please correct me if you know of any? What puzzles me about your position if you do see music as having a place in worship, is what type of music do you think is not 'worldly'? In my view all music is in one sense 'wordly' because it's created by man.
@faithbyloving Basically, nowhere in scripture is worship ever conducted through music. Music is to praise, and, as you said before, and it is to edify the believer. Worship was always, always, bowing in prayer and humility before God, not musical.
As far as the issue of worldly, while indeed the styles are all man-invented, we need to consider what they were invented for-rock, and all it's relatives, were designed specifically for entertainment, and to incite rebellion.
@whisperingsage I'm surprised you said that! ("nowhere in scripture is worship ever conducted through music"). Could you explain the meaning of Psalm 150 then please, as praising God is a part of worshipping Him? re: "Worship was always, always, bowing in prayer and humility before God, not musical" - for me, worship is in everything I do, inside or outside of church or home, whether silent/prostrate before God; busy in talking to others and honouring Him with my words, or in mundane work.
@faithbyloving I recommend you look in a String's concordance, or any with a Greek and Hebrew dictionary, and look over the words translated for "Praise" and "Worship" and you'll find they are extremely different. Yes, we can praise AND worship, even in the same prayer, but they are different in character and purpose and are not interchangable. PS 150 is all about praise-worship is never mentioned.
@ukulelemike re "PS 150 is all about praise-worship is never mentioned" - as I mentioned earlier, worship is an attitude that should be reflected in everything we do. Essentially, the essence of service to God is described in Romans 12:1 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." One cannot worship God without fulfilling this requirement.
@faithbyloving That you say "for me, worship is in everything I do, inside or outside of church or home, ..." is why you don't understand it, and until you bow your heart before God and do things HIS way, not yours, you never will. It's not about "for me"-it's HIS way. He lays things out very clearly in the Bible if we choose to read it and accept what it says. Worship is not praise, praise is not worship, and music is not worship. Not my opinion-Bible.
@ukulelemike You are right. It is NOT about me or you. Neither is it about your opinion or mine. It is as you correctly say, about faith and obedience. However, the ambiguity of your position is that you don't appear to be able to define correctly what is an "acceptable style of music" and what isn't, since by your stated conditions, they apply to both 19 century hymn tunes and 19 century gospel music.
@ukulelemike re "The only scriptures he had to be ‘fundamental’ about were the OT ones and he redefined or expanded on the meanings of many of the major texts therein." - I have asked you to explain to me the basis upon which you have made your statements so that I can change if I am convinced your correct, but your comment here seems to be adversarial in tone, indicating a slight hostility towards me, just because I haven't been able to agree with your opinion.
@ukulelemike sorry the quote should say "s why you don't understand it, and until you bow your heart before God and do things HIS way, not yours, you never will. It's not about "for me"-it's HIS way" - it sounds slightly condescending and presumptious. Nevertheless, as I said before, I am totally prepared to change and correct anything that I am doing wrong, if I am shown that there is something wrong, as my whole heart is to please and serve the Lord Jesus Christ, Yeshua Meshiach
@ukulelemike Jesus said in John 4:23 "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him."
24) "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. " - This is actually the requirement in worship, according to our Lord.
@ukulelemike I am prepared to change the musical style I offer if you can justifiably convince me that your are correct in saying that a particular style of music is acceptable to God but not another. However, so far, you haven't convinced me, but rather made me question the basis or your opinion and choices.
Again, in the ancient Temple worship, there were many instruments used and the style of music would likely NOT be either to your liking or acceptance, judging by your comments.
@ukulelemike I should point out that the Western tonal, harmonic and melodic style of music that you probably claim is acceptable to God in worship was neither heard of nor created at the time of Jesus and the ancient Temple worship. It is highly unlikely that it would either be the preference of Jesus or of the apostles, whose musical traditions were distinctly middle eastern tonalities and rythms. I am particularly interested in learning what I can of ancient Jewish music and hope to use it
@whisperingsage Muslims bow 'in prayer' without music, but I do not consider this to be worship of God or humility towards God. Regarding what a style was invented for, we must remember that many of the styles which the speaker commended were actually used in war to commit bloodshed on the battlefield, so we should think rather more carefully if we are going to exhonerate such styles just because their original uses is no longer in living memory.
@faithbyloving That's because they are worshiping a false God-it isn't worship of God, but of Satan. Regardless of music or not. And again, that some have misused it doesn't change the fact of the purpose of it from the start.
@ukulelemike Conversely, you could have with equal likelihood a situation existing in many of today's churches were people are using a musical style which you deem to be "acceptable" to God, yet it is not sung in sincerity or from the heart.
@faithbyloving That it is designed to incite rebellion admitted by the very pioneers of the styles, and that it did so very well is plain to see in the culture of rock and roll. Even jazz and blues. The music style of the hymns was invented to be used to glorify God-its sanctified as such. It isn't used for other purposes, nor has it been.
@whisperingsage I agree many old songs were written to glorify God, but I think it is vain to attempt to say that songs written with a contemporary style are not, particularly when both writers have the same passion to glorify the Lord in worship. Again, if only the western tonal, harmonic & rythmic styles of music are acceptable for worship, anyone holding this view, would be dismissing the worship of earliest Christian believers & Jesus, whose music did not conform to this narrow standard
@whisperingsage The musical style of old hymns has been used in a multitude of settings, including heretical sects, advertisements on TV, in war and even in bars throughout history, so I think your statement was not quite accurate there. Some music which was designed to be triumphalist and even with Christian hymns has been used in the past to urge troops into battle on the pretext of being 'soldiers of Christ'. I'm afraid it isn't such a straight forward matter as you seem to indicate.
@faithbyloving That some have misused it doesn't matter: the intention of it was to praise God and edify the brethren. With rock, its the other way around: it was designed to incite rebellion and sin, but some have decided with a little retooling it is worthy to offer to God as a sacrifice of praise. God wouldn't accept a lamb or kid with any spot or blemish as a sacrifice, but we can offer Him whatever feels good to us now, regardless of where it comes from?
@ukulelemike re "That some have misused it doesn't matter: the intention of it was to praise God and edify the brethren" - so then by this standard which you have prescribed, gospel music and its derivatives which were originally created to praise and worship the Lord, must also be acceptable since their original design was to Praise and Worship the Lord. Much of Contemporary Christian Music is shaped by gospel music. In the end, it begs the question as to what is acceptable to you as worship?
In regards to the words used, they are essential in conveying the meaning and intent of Praise to the Lord. The songs used carry with them the words of praise, scripture and doctrine to varying degrees. Perhaps you believe that there shouldn't be music in church? Well, this would be the position of muslims who believe that all music is idolatry and therefore the mosques are silent to instruments (they however forget that the oldest instrument is the human voice, which remains in the mosque!)
Sex does not enter my mind in regards to praise music. It couldn't be further from my mind. Neither is the music I play referencing 'sex' in any way. Neither would it be described as 'rock and roll', which is essentially dance hall music. I am very sensitive to the part that I play and would not dream of offending the Lord in this or other ways. The function of a musician in church is to lead people into the frame of mind and spirit to engage with the Presence of God. Nothing more.
Dear ukulelemike, I am probably one of those contemporary musicians that you speak of. I am willing to be corrected and advised by my brothers and sisters in Christ. My desire is to serve Christ and to use whatever gifts the Lord has given me, to his Glory and Praise. My prayer ever time I play my instrument in church is that every note will be offered up to him to His praise. My prayer is that in spite of me being there, that the Lord will be there with us as he promised where 2 or 3 are
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Rock and Roll originally came from Mariners description of life on the seas in a ship. Then years later it also was interwoven in some Negro Spiritual songs in the early 20th Century. Alan Freed coined the term in the early 50s and there were connotations or double meanings tagged to the term about sex, but in its infancy it was harmless compared to the Rock music today.
You make some very good points on here, especially about Hymns which are sadly fading away from today's churches, replaced by repetitious praise songs and in some churches loud CCM rock songs with watered down lyrics that put the focus on man instead of God. But, we cannot throw all of CCM under the bus. There are many great CCM songs and musicians whose messages are as powerful as the hymns. Just not enough of them, sad to say. 1 correction on the origin of rock and roll is...
Man has always been about rebellion long before pop, rock, metal, or any other style came into being! Nature of fallen man period. Are you to trash the Christian who shops at Guitar Center when they purchase a instrument knowing ahead of time that the very same are used by secular artists.? Words come from the heart. Christians words are very different from the worlds. The music is just the style created for that generation. Now, show me in the Bible where Christian rock sends you to hell.
@pointyguitarz Yes, man has always been about rebellion, and rock music was specifically designed BY man to foster that rebellion. Its in the music, not the words-in fact, often the words are inconsequential to the actual message in the music. And I'm not talking instruments-with the exception of the drum, when used to hold the beat, which has long been used the same way to induce trances and hypnosis, especially among African and other pagan tribes in their worship of demons.
@pointyguitarz Do some study of the pioneers of rock and its earlier ancestors, like jazz and blues, and you'll see that the words are rarely important-the message is in the music. BB King said that when he would play, the women would flock to him-no words, just music. Why do ugly, filthy, foul musicians like Mick Jagger and Keith Richards have no problem with getting women to have sex with them? The music-not the words, the music, the whole culture.
@ukulelemike I do not believe that any kind of music is "evil" in itself. I mean, that there are no such things as rhythms or chord structures or melody lines that were born in hell. The idea that the devil has invented certain styles of music so that he could capture the innocent young souls of today's youth is not only without foundation, it's laughable. Where in the Bible does it say that the devil invented or created this? Chapter and verse please? And don't hand me some convoluted spin!
@pointyguitarz tell us what form of music we should be using such as 1 Corinthians 14:15, Ephesians 5:18-20, Colossians 3:16-15-17, James 5:13 and various scriptural thus overally leading us to the conclusion that Satan’s music must have been fundamentally and structuraly different from the music of God. The idea of a style of music cunningly crafted by Satan to be disruptive of God’s natural pattern I personally believe is fully consistent with the teachings of Scripture.
@pointyguitarz believe it's telling us here that lucifer had musical instruments built into the form of his body, tabrets, a various percusion instruments like a tamberine, things that pernounce the rhythm in a song,and pipes, you have melody and harmony, for this reasonI believe lucifer knows music, that he knows it better than anybody, and therefore he is very wise in the the realm of music and that he is using music right now to not only bring changes in sociaty in general, but also to
@pointyguitarz Now here the Bible is certanly giving a description of lucifer giving a in his prefalling form as he was there standing over the throne of God, watching over it,he was the anointed cherib that covereth the Bible says.and it was his job I believe literaly says here that" thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created."I
@pointyguitarz "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created."
@pointyguitarz And things that God does not want to hear which brought out in Amos 5:23, "Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; For I will not hear the melody of thy viols."Also in ezekiel there is a description and repusentation given of lucifer and his nature, his appearance and his character. now it never mentions lucifer by name,it calls him prince of tyrus or king of tyrus but I believe that the devil fits that catagory, and it is certanly of him,look what it says in ezekial, 28:13
@pointyguitarz I can highly disagree with the ignorant remark you just made that you think it's laughable to think that the devil made a music form to entice young people and for this I also want to point out that according to the Bible, there are certain songs which God associates with sin such as Isaiah 23:15,"And it shall come to pass in that day, That Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, According to the days of one king: After the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot."
@eph112joephil You're such a creature of prooftexting. How long did it take you to reach your opinionated conclusions? You need to do more research on just how much musical power Lucifer had in heaven, it wasn't much and it wasn't about the music. Satan didn't tempt Jesus in the wilderness for 40 days and nights with music either! God gave man the ability to make music. It's up to man who to serve!
Christian rock band Petra sums it up best. They were huge in the 1980's, 90's.
"To say that rock and roll is evil is to give Satan credit for creating it. Satan created nothing. Satan robs and steals. We ask anyone to look at the fruit ... these are young people whose lives have taken positive directions because of the ministry of this band." Paul Jackson, manager.
Stryper? Christ said look at the fruit. It's not about how you feel about it!
@pointyguitarz We aren't speaking of creation, but of modification. Satan has always taken what God has created perfect and induced man to pervert it-he did it with worship, with clothing, with God's word, and with music. God creates perfect, Satan, through man, perverts. Rock music, and its derivatives, are perversions of God's creation. As for the fruit, if you listen to Petra's music, you can see how their message became watered down as they got popular.
By your argument, you might as well blame technology for perversion. Your strawman argument is flawed when you blame "culture" change in music tastes and so on. Are you to then blame God for creating Lucifer?
Blame the electric guitar? Drums? Amps? These are tools. Where you miss the boat is where Christ said to look at the fruit. Man looks at the outward appearance but God looks at the heart. You judge a band like Petra and dismiss the fruit? You don't even know these brothers!
@pointyguitarz I never said I blame culture so much as I blame Satan, and his tool, man. The culture is shaped by them, the tols often designed to be used for their purposes, just like the styles. And the fruit? A contemporary, culture and fad run church, rather than a God run church. The music, the the churches that se it, are totally controlled by what is popular in the lost world's styles, man, not God. The fruit is a worldly, carnal fruit.
You're going to have to do better than that Mike. That's just a very broad paint stroke in general. Fad run churches sounds like a new religion, but it's been around since the creation of man. You seem hung up on style. Just what shade of red isn't Godly enough for you?
@pointyguitarz The shade of red that follows after, and seeks to emulate the rebellious music and fashion styles of the world and their god, the prince of this world, the devil. Rock music, from its roots and all it's derivatives have always been about the worst in man-rebellion, anger, hatred, drugs, violence, sex and occultism-why would we emulate that to worship God? Rock has ALWAYS been about rebellion. You can't change the color by changing a few words. It is the nature of the beast.
You are right , but scripture says "they will heap upon themselves teachers who will tell em what their itching ears want to hear " this applies to so called new age christian music , another form of religion , lots of that going on, pure deception .
@heatmanable Indeed-CCM is all about continuing to listen to the wicked music styles that fed the flesh before salvation, but ding so in a form that makes one feel less guilty about it. They are scratching their ears with supposedly converted rock and roll, and style specifically invented to foster rebellion in the heart, and I see that result in 99% of those who listen to it. They drive out of the churches the older folks who don't like it, and feel blessed to do so. Wicked!
as far as telling people to read their bible, that same bible says judge not lest ye be not judged. Secondly, to compare a type of music to nadab and abihu is way off base. People who critize any worship because it's not just kike theirs are not the answer, but rather part of the problem. Oh and by the way, I am a saved, sealed, and holy ghost filled Baptist preacher. Maybe YOU should reaad the bible, without putting your own spin on it.
@beadyj That same Bible also says to prove all things, and to test the spirits whether they be of God. Judging people for their standing with God is one thing: judging activities and music and messages is vitally important to being an obedient Christian. Throughout the Bible, we see examples of types of worship being judged, because, as the Bible says, there is ONE way, and it is very narrow. CCM represents the broad path that wants to have it all.
Three things that baptists don't recognize , the pope as head of the catholic church , the leader of the anglican church , and each other coming out of the liquor store (-: saved all right .....
@wvhunter1968 First of all, to point out what you perceive to be hatred and sarcasm on my part, while at the same time calling me a hardliner and dimestore pastor, while accusing me of adding to the word of God, is very telling. You're simply a hypocrite, doing to me what you accuse me of doing, just because you disagree with me.
Second, if you listen, I'm not dealing with the gospel or salvation here, but godly, separated, holy living for Christians.
@wvhunter1968 Not strumming my uke like a rock star-just a uke player. If you don't agree with my take on the CCM, that's fine-I'm not your pastor-if you choose, as a Christian, for whom all things are to become new, want to continue to wallow in music that sounds no different from the ungodly secular musicians, you enjoy and have a good time- I'll seek something higher, I think.
@wvhunter1968 As for salvation, its true that all you need to be saved is faith in the finished work of salvation. However, after salvation, you're right-we work. If you read your Bible, you'll find that we are saved 'unto good works'. "Old things are passed away, behold, all things are become new". Obedience begins after salvation, because we could not obey before then. Do you recommend we start teaching them the rules before they are in Christ?
I respect your opinion, however I will tell you that I (Christ-centered-metal-loving man that I am) was bought by the blood of Christ as you were, and that Jesus didn't come to save those who thought they had the answers, he came to save the lost (Luke 19:10). In fact he directly rebuked the pharisees (Acts 26:5; Matt 23:23-26; Mark 7:1-13; Luke 11:37-42; 18:12) and their self-righteous behavior. The old testament law was fulfilled THROUGH Christ; this is the Good News of the Gospel! God Bless
I realize Jesus came to heal the sick, not the well-those who thought they had all the answers were the Pharisees, and they were blind to Him. But after salvation, we are supposed to change, to be transformed by the Spirit, not conformed to the world. When you remain involved in rebellion-based musical styles, that is not transformed. Try a NEW song, not the same rock and roll that has ruined many lives and characters.
I am lucky enough to go to a church that has both contemporary and traditional worship styles. Some of my favorite songs are classic hymns. My favorite is "A Mighty Fortress is our God." In fact I have some of these on my ipod and do listen to them. I don't think it would be wise to continue this debate any further as it is obvious that you don't care about who I really am or my standing with Christ, you just want to push your point. Feel free to PM me if you feel like having a real conversation
See, when you were lost, the metal you so love was appropriate-borne of rebellion against authority, including against God, (hence Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, Dio, and other blasphemously-named groups standing obviously against God), but once you are saved,. you are a NEW creature-OLD things have passed away, behold ALL things are become new. When you hold on to the old, God-hating trash, even if the words have changed, that isn't changed, that isn't new-its just a coat of 'Jesus" paint.
i am not angry about what you teach but do not agree. i have attended many christian "rock" themed events and have seen people delivered and physically healed. if what you say is true then god did not honor this and we just annoyed him enough for him to do what we asked him for so we would stop. not true, he was honored and showed us love. or if this was not got then who?? remember a house divided can not stand
And my wife has told me of people healed through New Age gurus and metaphysical healers-do we believe everything done in God's name is always right, or of God? Just because a 'miracle' occurs does not make it of God-you can usually tell by the company those miraculous activities keep-if it's ungodly, worldly, unsanctified music styles like Rock and Roll, I would question it. Would you trust a miracle done at a KISS concert, because they were singing "God Gave Rock and Roll To You"?
correction, the above comment was submitted by my husband on MY computer not thinking to sign into his own account. whisperingsage. He is ukulelemike. Please respond to him. Please.
It isn't a house divided-it's not part of the house at all. Maybe a few of the people there are of the right house, but they are hanging in a different house for their entertainment, because they find God's house too boring and old-fashioned.
should we go back to the the way david worshipped with harps and cymbals and horns so that our worship would not be considered contemporary? And what about paul's comment about "becoming all things to all people, so that we might win a few. could you say that jesus himself was contemporary with healing on the sabbath and teaching and speaking to women and children the way he did? which in jewish tradition and society back then women and children were treated different and lower as men.
Well, at least harps, cymbals and horns would be more biblical than electric guitar and drums. But really, no, not talking instruments so much, as worldly-type styles
Paul's comments were dealing specifically with Jewish/Gentile, as per the keeping of the laws and customs of the Jews with the Jews, but not keeping them with the Gentiles, as they would be a wall between them. There is really no more that can be added to that.
I wonder why you chose style as the bases for your attempt at separation why not be separate by tuning your instruments different or playing music based on scales that are not the typical western major/minor scale? Or why not get really creative and create your own form of music that has never been done before if you really want to be separate?
Jesus healed on the Sabbath because it was always right to do good on the Sabbath, despite the man-made rules the Pharisees and Rabbis had added to the law. Same with speaking to children and women-Jesus gave the Law and He fulfilled it the way it was supposed to be, while the Pharisees taught the traditions of men as the commandments of God. He was doing it the way it was supposed to be done.
the only type of music that i can tolerate is instrumental music in which i love all styles.However i find the sound of a human voice trying to sing to be very annoying.
Check your heart-the Bible says, "Make a joyful NOISE", not a pleasant sound. It is the heart the Lord appreciates, and thus, so it is the heart and the joy we should appreciate, not the quality or skill of the voice. After all, we sing ultimately for the Lord, correct?
Well, in the case of 'contemporary music', it doesn't so much refer to music written recently, but rather, music using the current, popular style of the day, in the case of CCM, that which follows the world's faddish rock, etc, styles. They have a tendency of changing constantly, while the things of God tend to remain much longer-hence, why hymns did not match the styles of popular music when written, and have generally not changed since.
WIth all due respect and no intent to slander, I encourage you to consider the fact that many (yet not all) of the great hymns of the church originated from the tunes of songs commonly sung in bars in those days. That was the common secular form of music during that time period. My question is this: What makes today's popular forms of music more sinful than the music we derived these hymns from, if they are both secular in origin?
i never said it was pauls opinion,i said it was a man-made custom and not the will of GOd. paul is making reference to a custom that apparently was in place long before he gave this scripture. .Nowhere will you find a similar take on this topic earlier in the Bible. the fact that humans had this tradition before it was addressed in scripture is proof that it was a man made idea to start with and did not come from GOd.
Perhaps, but the fact that the Lord had it addressed brings it then beyond custom and into the realm of what is and isn't God's will. When the Lord directs Paul to tell us that it is shameful for a woman to have short hair, and a man to have long hair, and thay, to pray or prophesy in those conditions dishonors their heads, (Being Christ), now we are talking sin, for is it not a sin to dishonor God?
you never did address why you dont greet everyone with a kiss. after all god had it addresed ,took out of the realm of custom and placed in the bible as a direct command. romans 16:16
We don;'t judge our praise and worship styles according to what we prefer, but according to holiness and separation. We cannot offer God they styles of the ungodly, which is what CCM is: a "Christian" version of the worlds vilest music styles, totally driven, not by sanctification, but the world's fashions and fads.
And sorry, but my comment page is not an advertisement page for your preferred brand of music, especially when it is directly at odds to what I am dealing with. Sorry, but gotta delete it as spam. You don't have to agree with me, but respect what I am doing-argue if you like, but don't post something you know I don't agree with on MY comment page. Feel free, however, to link your channel here and post it there.
I looked at this song, and checked out the band's site, and found not a word about Jesus, God, salvation, or anything that would make one think they are Christian. The music has not a single overtone of Christianity, and sounds no different from any heavy metal band out there. So, what's the difference? But thanks for playing.
Well you dont have to look far in ccm to find songs about Jesus, God, and salvation. People who are seeking something different then the same sinful day to day life feel faded, at the end of their rope so to speak. In this song the singer is calling on the name of Christ to save him. You probably couldnt relate to people who are broken, so sure lyrics like these mean absolutly nothing to you. Jesus compassion was towards the lost and he knew their hurts. These are the people he dined with.
The song that I looked up with this particular band was such a heavy rock that I couldn't understand a word they said. Also, we looked up another video on them and they were VERY worldly, what does the Bible say about touch not the unclean thing? What does the Bible say about be ye separate? Oh no our lost are mostly Fetal Alcohol damaged, we wouldn't know anything about pain and suffering here. Our people live in the desert with no power, including me for 16 yrs.
As for the term "Rock" it is not the word itself that should count but the intention. Christian rock meant only as a genre of music to worship God is fine. When you CHOOSE to view it as sex then there is an issue.
P.S. Thank you for your message as it was enlightening.
Hello brother. What is it about hymns that God finds more appealing than ccm? Is it like God's grace to deny one's genuine praises because of the tune? Do you think God finds the music more important than the praises of the mouth? Nadab and Abihu were killed due to their focus on pride, viewing their offering as better than that which God commanded. Likewise, if one played music only to show off their capabilities, that would be wrong. However, often with ccm, like,hymns that is not the case.
1 corinthians 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious,we have no such custom neither the churches of God. this verse clearly is saying that if a man wants long hair it isnt sin but rather only a custom that is not worth arguing over. and therefoer a church that insist on this custom is clearly not a church of god.
You misread the verse-why would Paul spend 16 verses speasking on the importance of the hair issue, only to end it by basically saying, "But if anyone disagrees, its no big deal". The meaning of this takes more space than I have here, but it goes back to the first verse of chapter 7, this being an answer to a question from the Corinth church, probably asking if the women needed to wear a headcovering, and paul telling them it is the hair.
anyone that interprets that verse any different then what i did is refusing to see the obvious truth and altering the bible to fit there personal opinion. its called self riteousness. you should repent.
AS I said, so Paul spends 16 verses speaking on universal order and it's rules, then says that f anyone disagrees, no big deal, they don't have to do it-since when does God adjust His rule by whether we disagree or not. In fact, it is a sin to be contentious against the revealed will of God-we interpret by the entire context of the Bible, not just a single verse-nowhere does God allow us to alter His will because we disagree, so it cannot be understood in this way.
paul is speaking of spiritual things ,not carnal. he's speaking of how GOd is the head of the man and man is the head of the woman. he uses the traditional custom of the hair issue to try to explain his point. and then realises that people would focuse on the wrong part of his comparison(thehair) so he then says to not inforce such a custom if it would make contention between you. the contention being with the man-made custom and not the will of GOd..
Actually, the initial discussion was on headcoverings, and Paul was clarifying that the covering is the natural covering, the hair, given even before there were clothes. If you study some history of the time and area, you find that there was a controversy over women ceasing to wear headcoverings, and, if you refer back to the beginning of chapter 7, you'll see Paul began answering questions posed to him-this issue was probably one of them. Context always answers us.
at one time God forbid the jewish men to cut there hair short enough to show there ears. showing ears was a sign of vanity and they were not allowed to cut it over there ears.
I mean, come one-in one verse it says it's a shame for a man to have long hair-do we then believe that, if we disagree, and are contentious, meaning argumentative over it, then it's really okay, do what you want? Is God accepting of us living in a shameful manner just because we disagree with His will? Contention breeds rebellion, which is as the sin of witchcraft. Thus, we must conclude it has a different meaning that what we think-this is called rightly dividing the word of God.
I do not have what is considered long hair nor do i have any emotional attachment to it. but i am not willing to stretch the meaning of the bible way out of order to try to justify any personal agenda. besides no where in the bible will you find "shame" being refered to as sin,however the opposite of shame,"pride" is sin. if you are proud of your hair syle is that not vanity which is also sin.shame is humility which humbles us. it is a good thing
The word "Shame" here is the Greek word, "atimia", which means dishonor, ignominy or disgrace, not humility. IN other words, it is disgraceful for a man to have long hair. And whom do you think it disgraces when a Christian acts in a disgraceful manner? his Head, jesus Christ. The hair is a covering-this is the point of this passage, and if a man is covered, or has long hair, then he is never fit to pray or speak the word of God. He cannot please the Lord if he is covered.
Wrong-humility is an act which brings one into seeing themselves as less important than others around them, while disgrace is the result of acting shamefully-in this case, bring shame upon your head, Christ.
Read your bible-every time the word 'shame' is used it is not in the sense of godly humility, but of disgrace-every time! It also says that it is a shame for a woman to be shaven or shorn, just as it is a shame for a man to have long hair-each gender is put to shame when they act in a way that is opposite of the roles and order God has laid out, and the hair is a big part of it. This shame is not the opposite of pride, but the opposite of honor.
and also length is relative. when you see jesus in a portrait with hair to his shoulders you must understand that in his day this was considered short , because woman's hair was to there waist if not there ankles. modern day custom is the only thing that makes mens hair as short as it is nowadays. womens hair keeps getting shorter so men think they have to now have crew cuts. GOd has seen many styles come and go through out the generations, and in spite of them all he looks at the heart.
Jesus did not wear hair as in the portraits-He also was not skinny and effeminate, as other portraits depict Him. I pray you don't get much of your theology from pictures, seeing as Jesus never posed for any of them, so far as we know. Yes, Jesus looks at the heart, but it do
ok, since CCM is sinful, how about we remove every song that wasn't sung by the earliest Church, since they are all sinful if they are less than, say, 1000 years old.
to quote Ukelele, balderdash!
dmaster254 4 weeks ago
@dmaster254 Where did I say it was sinful? You put words in my mouth. I said its not Christian, it's worldly and carnal. It's not about Christ, but about how the artists and listeners feel. And it has less to do with the time of the writing, and more to do with the style, which is the obvious point I was making, and you missed. I wonder did you watch it at all, or just write a review from the title?
ukulelemike 4 weeks ago
ho ho oh k
atokad234 1 month ago
So, are you telling me that when I write a song and pour out my heart in doing so... that I am sinning? Watch my videos and tell me... whats wrong with this?
davidgoliath09 1 month ago
@davidgoliath09 I'm not telling YOU anything. I am saying that CCM, for the most part, regardless of how much 'heart' one pours into it, is worldly and carnal, and specifically, intentionally copies the world's wicked music. As I said in the video, consider Nadab and Abihu-I am sure what they did was with a good heart, but it wasn't what God demanded: sanctified, separated worship. Instead, they worshiped Him as the Egyptian priests worshiped. How we feel doesn't matter.
ukulelemike 1 month ago
Music is always relating to PRAISE. Worship is always relating to falling down before God. (with head bowed usually. ). This is why we note that when a man would fall down before an angel, the angel always told him to do it not, for I am just a fellow servant, or some such thing.
whisperingsage 3 months ago
@whisperingsage Thanks for your reply. re "Worship is always relating to falling down before God. (with head bowed usually" - do you then accept the Islamic posturing and carefully prescribed method of praying, to be worship? It has to be precisely followed according to the instructions or it is not regarded as 'prayer' or worship.
faithbyloving 3 months ago
@faithbyloving Of course it's worship-its just worship of a false idol, which we are warned against. We are to worship God and Him alone do we serve.
ukulelemike 4 weeks ago
@ukulelemike Forgive me brother, but what exactly do you claim is "worship of a false idol"? and which "idol" are you speaking of? There are millions of idols in this world, but the truth is, it is you that make them an idol and than can be absolutely anything! If you choose to make your particular flavour of worship music, your "idol", then that is your choice. That flavour may be monastic chanting, country gospel, 19 century hymns, 21 century songs to the Lord, or even silence
faithbyloving 4 weeks ago
@faithbyloving You mentioned the worship that the Islamists offer to Allah as bowing, and asked if it is worship. It IS worship, of a false idol, Allah. Worship must be in a state of humility before the Lord. No, I don't believe we must always be on our face literally, but we must be bowed in spirit and heart. Again, our standard must be Bible: nowhere is music used as part of worship-we invented that. Music is to speak OF God, or to praise Him. Look it up.
ukulelemike 3 weeks ago
@ukulelemike re Islamists and prostration - well thankfully we are in agreement about that. We both know that they worship Baal (Hubal the name of Allah). However, the point was you said that bowing was worship and I was simply pointing out that outward appearance or bodily postures do not necessarily reflect worship. Jesus said they that worship Him, must worship in Spirit and in Truth. It is therefore the position of the heart and not the body.
faithbyloving 3 weeks ago
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@ukulelemike re "nowhere is music used as part of worship-we invented that" - this statement is unscriptural. There is no scripture to support his position whatsoever. It merely reflects what you have been taught or your own narrow preferences. It is not from scripture. You said "our standard must be Bible" - but this is not from the Bible. If it is, please quote the chapter and verse?
faithbyloving 3 weeks ago
@ukulelemike There is no "right" flavour of music when it comes to praise or worship, except the music that is played in Heaven and we don't know what that is! It may bear absolutely NO RESEMBLANCE to the music that is played here on earth. It may not be in a language that you recognise or with tonalities, harmonies or rythmns with which you are familiar. Yet it may be the "right" music for God.
faithbyloving 4 weeks ago
@faithbyloving Actually, the New Testament refers a few times to the types of music the early church was directed to sing to one another, and to themselves, and to God: Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. The problem with what the CCM world uses is that it directly imitates the sounds of worldly styles which are already associated with certain lifestyles. There is also a great amount of fruit to be found in the CCM community, that they follow the same lines.
ukulelemike 3 weeks ago
@ukulelemike Many of them, in their concerts, sing secular songs by wicked musicians, such as the Beatles, Jimi Hendrix and others. They perform in secular movies, like POD doing music for 'Little Nicky", a movie where the hero was the son of the devil. These musicians perform music and follow after the world. If there is any 'flavor' of Christian music, it is any that is distinctly different from the popular secular styles, not imitating them. It's called 'holiness'.
ukulelemike 3 weeks ago
@ukulelemike re "If there is any 'flavor' of Christian music, it is any that is distinctly different from the popular secular styles, not imitating them. It's called 'holiness' " - that's just the point - there is no "distinct style" that is different from music heard in the world. All church music, including your own, borrows heavily from musicalities which are heard commonly in the world, including scales, harmonies, rythmns, time, nuances, etc.
faithbyloving 3 weeks ago
@ukulelemike It is self delusion to believe that any music you play is unique to music used for the worship of God. If it were actually true, you might have a point, but it isn't the case. You may prefer to believe that it is, to justify your particular church or church music and by all means if that is what you believe, then ok, but please don't condemn your brothers and sisters in Christ who worship with styles different from your own.
faithbyloving 3 weeks ago
@ukulelemike re "The problem with what the CCM world uses is that it directly imitates the sounds of worldly styles which are already associated with certain lifestyles. There is also a great amount of fruit to be found in the CCM community, that they follow the same lines" - I think brother, you are being naive in the extreme and using generalisations judgementally against your brothers and sisters in the church, many of whom may be equally or more devout than yourself.
faithbyloving 3 weeks ago
@ukulelemike While it is true that there are excesses of lifestyle and sinful lifestyles occuring in the wider church, including apostasy, it is self delusion to be pointing the finger at another group of people in the wider church judgementally accusing them of being sinners or worshipping idols. The Bible tells us not to judge, or not to judge before the time. Remember, God can see in on the heart, while you are looking on 'the outward appearance' as you "perceive" evil.
faithbyloving 3 weeks ago
@ukulelemike As I have listened to some of your own music and playing, I too can obseve that it "imitates the sounds of worldly styles", that do not exist in church. The reality is that there is no music at all that is played in churches that has no relationship to that played globally in the world. You will find it extremely difficult to produce a music in church that does not borrow from known scales, rythmns, time, melodies and harmonies.
faithbyloving 3 weeks ago
@ukulelemike Your narrow view of your own music, which precludes the music of other churches, would come very 'unstuck' and find yourself in difficulty, once you transfer your particular prejudices to other times and cultures! You would not be able to identify which you were to decide was "worldly" and which "not".
For instance if I were to ask you which hindustani style should be used for church music in India, how would you know which was "worldly" and which not?
faithbyloving 3 weeks ago
@ukulelemike May I also say that according to Jesus Himself, sin starts in the heart and proceeds from there. He said it is not what goes "into" a man that defiles him, but that which proceeds from his heart. It is not therefore a particular style of music, eg folk, country, gospel, classical, hindustani, chinese, malayam, norwegian, aboriginal, that is inherently idol worship, but the Intent of the Heart.
faithbyloving 3 weeks ago
@ukulelemike After all, who are you to say to an African that his style of worship music is worshipping idols, when you cannot possibly know his devotion to the Lord or the love he is expressing towards God in his music?
faithbyloving 3 weeks ago
@ukulelemike The nearest we CAN get to the "right" music is the ancient Jewish Temple music. All other music is worship of false idols as you say! This is because God instructed that music to be played and no other. For this reason then, you should immediately put stop the music that you have been playing and put down your instrument, until you have learned to play and sing Hebrew Jewish music.
faithbyloving 4 weeks ago
@faithbyloving Actually, if you read the Bible, I believe you will find that it was David who instructed the music to be played, not by directive of God.
ukulelemike 3 weeks ago
@ukulelemike re "David who instructed the music to be played, not by directive of God" - "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness" 2 Timothy 3:16
To take your position would be a fundamental error of Bible reading. Are you suggesting that David was worshipping with Contemporary Music and therefore no better than his secular contemporaries, in that he was worshipping as you call it, "a false idol"?
faithbyloving 3 weeks ago
@ukulelemike Having heard some of your music, I noticed that you use "blues notes" - this is Sinful and Worldly and indicates praise to man, not God. You should not use "blues notes" because they are inherently sinful. Remember, a little leaven, leaveneth the whole lump!
faithbyloving 4 weeks ago
@faithbyloving I don't claim to be perfect-I am learning, as all Christians should be, and am working on learning better to play correctly. Growth. None of us are perfect-I'm just not trying to make my imperfections acceptable to God.
ukulelemike 3 weeks ago
@ukulelemike But my brother "I'm just not trying to make my imperfections acceptable to God" - we can NEVER make our judgementalism towards our brothers and sisters in the wider church, "acceptable to God"! In fact, the Bible says that when we judge others in this way, we too will be judged, likewise!
faithbyloving 3 weeks ago
@ukulelemike and of course those blues notes which you are playing are regarded as "strange fire" by the Lord, commanded against in the Bible.
faithbyloving 4 weeks ago
I don't know if you are understanding what I am trying to convey here, but I hope that you can see that from my view point, you have presented me with a video that is so ambiguous that it doesn't help me at all. Yet, again I say if you are right then please correct me. I am willing to learn from you.
faithbyloving 3 months ago
@faithbyloving Unfortunately, with a 10 minute limit, I am limited in what I can convey. I'd be happy to try to do more with a PM through Youtube, if you like.
whisperingsage 3 months ago
@whisperingsage I have been in some of these churches & left at the end of the service without anyone speaking to me once. The point is when people worship God in spirit & in truth, the love of God should be evident & testify that they have been with Christ & flow out to visitors. It is therefore no wonder that such churches are rapidly diminishing in attendance, and are closing in the UK every week. So we must look to the fruit of a worshipping community to know if its worship is accepted.
faithbyloving 3 months ago
His hymn book music would have been contemporary to the music that existed in the world at the time it was written, but should we then regard that music as worldy because it was in the style of the culture and time of the people who wrote it?
faithbyloving 3 months ago
@faithbyloving I suggest you look up the word "Contemporary" in Webster's. It has two basic meanings, the second of which is to be marked by characteristics of the present period; modern; current. This is the one it refers to in CCM-it is modern, by design, which means it must continually change to remain current and contemporary, according to the cultural fads. as secular music changes, so must CCM, to stay modern. It is man-driven, not God-driven.
whisperingsage 3 months ago
@whisperingsage Thank you for your replies. I appreciate that you took to the time to answer! I remain to be convinced however that you are right. It is not that I insist that I am right and you are wrong, its just that I don't currently think like you do about it. When the Lord gathers His people, one priest shall be taken and the other left, one communicant shall be taken and the other left, one theologian taken and the other left,...and what shall be the deciding factor? musical style?
faithbyloving 3 months ago
@whisperingsage No, the deciding factor will not be that you were "faithful" in singing an old style of music with your hymns or that you didn't ever sing that "dreadful new contemporary Christian music"! The deciding factor will be this: "I never knew you" or "well done my good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of the Lord"
all the other things are outward appearances & all are 'things of this world', but when God judges He will judge by looking in on our Heart, faith & obedience
faithbyloving 3 months ago
For me, all music is related tonally, rythmically and harmonically. It can be very diverse and include each of these 3 elements in greater or lesser degree. However, they are simply basic technical elements of music. I once spoke to a friend who said that the only legitimate church music was from an old hymn book of his own preference! However, I doubt his preference would have been shared by the early church or by many churches in the east, whose style would be very different!
faithbyloving 3 months ago
@faithbyloving If you are a heavy student of music, I would recommend the video series, "Music: for Good or Evil" by David Cloud. He goes deeply into the differences of the styles of music and the various differences. Don't know that I agree 100%, but still, good information. But again, the issue at stake is sanctification. To sanctify something means to set it apart for use for God Alone. That must include music, not just lyrics.
whisperingsage 3 months ago
@whisperingsage Remember that "man looks on the outward appearance" (style of song, appearance of people, clothes, education, job, family, etc), but God looks in on the heart" In the NT we had a similar issue, regarding the circumcision and the uncircumcision and we are told that true circumcision is circumcision of the Heart, not of the flesh. In other words you can have a church full of people (and indeed there are many such churches over the world) singing traditional hymns with no growth
faithbyloving 3 months ago
@faithbyloving Sanctification is why I don't use my church building as a general meeting hall, or have AA meetings or such-because it is sanctified as the meeting place of the church. To use it for other purposes would break that sanctification. So it is with music-the style is important because even it must be sanctified. Nadab and Abihu were killed because they tried to worship God in an unsanctified manner, using worship styles from Egypt, and God didn't allow it.
whisperingsage 3 months ago
@whisperingsage In fact there are many traditional hymn singing churches which are closing down. Little of no evangelisation takes place from some of these churches as the communicants are too afraid to mention their faith to anyone. Paul however writes: "I am not ashamed of the cross of Christ because it is the power of God unto salvation".
faithbyloving 3 months ago
Please don't think that I am being awkward or pedantic. I'm not at all and as I said at the beginning of my message, if you are right and what i do is sinful or wrong, then I am willing to be corrected and if necessary never play in church again. I do not want to offend the Lord. It is just that your video rather than clarifies your position, leaves me with more questions and a rather confusing and ambiguous position. It may be that you don't think in these terms about music, but I do.
faithbyloving 3 months ago
@faithbyloving The point is, the church has allowed the world to slip into the church, and it has no place there. We want to imitate the things of the world, including its music, to try and be 'relevant', yet, what is more relevant than the Word of God, and the music that He has obviously blessed for over 500 years? Its about holiness and sanctification, and we cannot sanctify for God something that is sanctified for the devil, with blatantly wicked intent.
whisperingsage 3 months ago
@whisperingsage I am 100% with you on Santification and Holiness. That is our aim and desire, though few of us attain it. All of us are sinners, but saved in faith by the Blood of Jesus Christ. I also agree that there is nothing more relevant than the Word of God. However, I think that associating a particular style of music of any kind with the Word of God, is if it has a special authority or blessing, is an error.
faithbyloving 3 months ago
@faithbyloving COnsider the story of Nadab and Abihu in context to the subject: they chose a type of worship that was beforehand used by pagans, offered it to YHWH, and God rejected it outright. Now we use CCM to worship God, a style of music invented and used by pagans, witches, homosexuals, satanists and durg abusers for entertainment, we change the words a bit, and >presto<, we expect God to be pleased with it. How is it different?
ukulelemike 3 months ago
@ukulelemike Hello. re "COnsider the story of Nadab..." - This is a serious consideration indeed! I don't belittle it or dismiss it. From what I can see on this text, without extensive reference to biblical commentaries etc, the "strange fire" that was offered was an offering made that was not only not accepted by the Lord, but was in disobedience to His instructions. It may have been related to the "strange incense" commanded against in Exodus 30:9
faithbyloving 3 months ago
@ukulelemike Exodus 30:9 "You shall not offer strange incense on it, or a burnt offering, or a grain offering; nor shall you pour a drink offering on it." - and therefore in direct disobedience to the Lord's instructions. If this is what I am doing, then I must stop it immediately! However, when you then go on to say "we use CCM to worship God, a style of music invented & used by pagans, witches, homosexuals, satanists & durg abusers for entertainment" - this is your opinion rather than fact
faithbyloving 3 months ago
@ukulelemike Historically, it is the other way round. Music of all kinds has been abstracted from the church environment and used for worldly purposes. This is true of any kind of music. For instance, gospel music which was created by black people during times of slavery and used in deep devotion to worship the Lord, was a style which was later used for non Christian/worship purposes. If we go far back in history, we find that monastic chanting used to worship the Lord affected worldly music
faithbyloving 3 months ago
@ukulelemike There has always interchange of musical nuances between the church and worldy music, as music progressed and developed. You may say that this is evil, but isn't that a bit extreme? For instance, we rarely if ever these days sing hymns which are written in the 17th Century Baroquial style which was used in churches of that period. Instead most of our oldest hymn tunes are 19 century in style. This is because of the development of musical styles in the west, but was this evil?
faithbyloving 3 months ago
@whisperingsage The truth is there is no acceptable worship except presenting our bodies as a living sacrifice: Romans 12:1 "Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship." In other words it isn't the "style" God is impressed with or that pleases God, it is the state of your heart.
faithbyloving 3 months ago
What type of music would you describe as not 'worldly' or 'appropriate' in worship? For instance if you are an Indian Christian, would it be worldy music in worship if it was in the Classical Indian music style, or in China, in the chinese tradition? Or if we re-created some of the ancient jewish Temple music would this be acceptable and if it was would the style that you think is acceptable, still be acceptable if the ancient Jewish Temple music was available?
faithbyloving 3 months ago
@faithbyloving You might visit some of the smaller Christian churches in various parts of the world-most of them use traditional hymns in their own languages. I have been in churches in Romania where this is the case. And some of those hymns were written in other countries, and used the same style. So apparently, most of them feel that they style of hymns is appropriate. Christianity is not cultural, nor should it be. When we make it so is when it becomes worldly.
whisperingsage 3 months ago
Certainly in the Old Testament, it is clear that the Temple had its own musicians for Temple worship. King David even danced in worship. There doesn't appear to be any prohibition about worshipping the Lord with music that I can see, but please correct me if you know of any? What puzzles me about your position if you do see music as having a place in worship, is what type of music do you think is not 'worldly'? In my view all music is in one sense 'wordly' because it's created by man.
faithbyloving 3 months ago
@faithbyloving Basically, nowhere in scripture is worship ever conducted through music. Music is to praise, and, as you said before, and it is to edify the believer. Worship was always, always, bowing in prayer and humility before God, not musical.
As far as the issue of worldly, while indeed the styles are all man-invented, we need to consider what they were invented for-rock, and all it's relatives, were designed specifically for entertainment, and to incite rebellion.
whisperingsage 3 months ago
@whisperingsage I'm surprised you said that! ("nowhere in scripture is worship ever conducted through music"). Could you explain the meaning of Psalm 150 then please, as praising God is a part of worshipping Him? re: "Worship was always, always, bowing in prayer and humility before God, not musical" - for me, worship is in everything I do, inside or outside of church or home, whether silent/prostrate before God; busy in talking to others and honouring Him with my words, or in mundane work.
faithbyloving 3 months ago
@faithbyloving I recommend you look in a String's concordance, or any with a Greek and Hebrew dictionary, and look over the words translated for "Praise" and "Worship" and you'll find they are extremely different. Yes, we can praise AND worship, even in the same prayer, but they are different in character and purpose and are not interchangable. PS 150 is all about praise-worship is never mentioned.
ukulelemike 3 months ago
@ukulelemike re "PS 150 is all about praise-worship is never mentioned" - as I mentioned earlier, worship is an attitude that should be reflected in everything we do. Essentially, the essence of service to God is described in Romans 12:1 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." One cannot worship God without fulfilling this requirement.
faithbyloving 3 months ago
@faithbyloving That you say "for me, worship is in everything I do, inside or outside of church or home, ..." is why you don't understand it, and until you bow your heart before God and do things HIS way, not yours, you never will. It's not about "for me"-it's HIS way. He lays things out very clearly in the Bible if we choose to read it and accept what it says. Worship is not praise, praise is not worship, and music is not worship. Not my opinion-Bible.
ukulelemike 3 months ago
@ukulelemike You are right. It is NOT about me or you. Neither is it about your opinion or mine. It is as you correctly say, about faith and obedience. However, the ambiguity of your position is that you don't appear to be able to define correctly what is an "acceptable style of music" and what isn't, since by your stated conditions, they apply to both 19 century hymn tunes and 19 century gospel music.
faithbyloving 3 months ago
@ukulelemike re "The only scriptures he had to be ‘fundamental’ about were the OT ones and he redefined or expanded on the meanings of many of the major texts therein." - I have asked you to explain to me the basis upon which you have made your statements so that I can change if I am convinced your correct, but your comment here seems to be adversarial in tone, indicating a slight hostility towards me, just because I haven't been able to agree with your opinion.
faithbyloving 3 months ago
@ukulelemike sorry the quote should say "s why you don't understand it, and until you bow your heart before God and do things HIS way, not yours, you never will. It's not about "for me"-it's HIS way" - it sounds slightly condescending and presumptious. Nevertheless, as I said before, I am totally prepared to change and correct anything that I am doing wrong, if I am shown that there is something wrong, as my whole heart is to please and serve the Lord Jesus Christ, Yeshua Meshiach
faithbyloving 3 months ago
@faithbyloving Sorry, I meant 'Strong's concordance, not strings.
ukulelemike 3 months ago
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@ukulelemike Jesus said in John 4:23 "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him."
24) "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. " - This is actually the requirement in worship, according to our Lord.
faithbyloving 3 months ago
@ukulelemike I am prepared to change the musical style I offer if you can justifiably convince me that your are correct in saying that a particular style of music is acceptable to God but not another. However, so far, you haven't convinced me, but rather made me question the basis or your opinion and choices.
Again, in the ancient Temple worship, there were many instruments used and the style of music would likely NOT be either to your liking or acceptance, judging by your comments.
faithbyloving 3 months ago
@ukulelemike I should point out that the Western tonal, harmonic and melodic style of music that you probably claim is acceptable to God in worship was neither heard of nor created at the time of Jesus and the ancient Temple worship. It is highly unlikely that it would either be the preference of Jesus or of the apostles, whose musical traditions were distinctly middle eastern tonalities and rythms. I am particularly interested in learning what I can of ancient Jewish music and hope to use it
faithbyloving 3 months ago
@whisperingsage Muslims bow 'in prayer' without music, but I do not consider this to be worship of God or humility towards God. Regarding what a style was invented for, we must remember that many of the styles which the speaker commended were actually used in war to commit bloodshed on the battlefield, so we should think rather more carefully if we are going to exhonerate such styles just because their original uses is no longer in living memory.
faithbyloving 3 months ago
@faithbyloving That's because they are worshiping a false God-it isn't worship of God, but of Satan. Regardless of music or not. And again, that some have misused it doesn't change the fact of the purpose of it from the start.
ukulelemike 3 months ago
@ukulelemike Conversely, you could have with equal likelihood a situation existing in many of today's churches were people are using a musical style which you deem to be "acceptable" to God, yet it is not sung in sincerity or from the heart.
faithbyloving 3 months ago
@faithbyloving That it is designed to incite rebellion admitted by the very pioneers of the styles, and that it did so very well is plain to see in the culture of rock and roll. Even jazz and blues. The music style of the hymns was invented to be used to glorify God-its sanctified as such. It isn't used for other purposes, nor has it been.
whisperingsage 3 months ago
@whisperingsage I agree many old songs were written to glorify God, but I think it is vain to attempt to say that songs written with a contemporary style are not, particularly when both writers have the same passion to glorify the Lord in worship. Again, if only the western tonal, harmonic & rythmic styles of music are acceptable for worship, anyone holding this view, would be dismissing the worship of earliest Christian believers & Jesus, whose music did not conform to this narrow standard
faithbyloving 3 months ago
@whisperingsage The musical style of old hymns has been used in a multitude of settings, including heretical sects, advertisements on TV, in war and even in bars throughout history, so I think your statement was not quite accurate there. Some music which was designed to be triumphalist and even with Christian hymns has been used in the past to urge troops into battle on the pretext of being 'soldiers of Christ'. I'm afraid it isn't such a straight forward matter as you seem to indicate.
faithbyloving 3 months ago
@faithbyloving That some have misused it doesn't matter: the intention of it was to praise God and edify the brethren. With rock, its the other way around: it was designed to incite rebellion and sin, but some have decided with a little retooling it is worthy to offer to God as a sacrifice of praise. God wouldn't accept a lamb or kid with any spot or blemish as a sacrifice, but we can offer Him whatever feels good to us now, regardless of where it comes from?
ukulelemike 3 months ago
@ukulelemike re "That some have misused it doesn't matter: the intention of it was to praise God and edify the brethren" - so then by this standard which you have prescribed, gospel music and its derivatives which were originally created to praise and worship the Lord, must also be acceptable since their original design was to Praise and Worship the Lord. Much of Contemporary Christian Music is shaped by gospel music. In the end, it begs the question as to what is acceptable to you as worship?
faithbyloving 3 months ago
In regards to the words used, they are essential in conveying the meaning and intent of Praise to the Lord. The songs used carry with them the words of praise, scripture and doctrine to varying degrees. Perhaps you believe that there shouldn't be music in church? Well, this would be the position of muslims who believe that all music is idolatry and therefore the mosques are silent to instruments (they however forget that the oldest instrument is the human voice, which remains in the mosque!)
faithbyloving 3 months ago
Sex does not enter my mind in regards to praise music. It couldn't be further from my mind. Neither is the music I play referencing 'sex' in any way. Neither would it be described as 'rock and roll', which is essentially dance hall music. I am very sensitive to the part that I play and would not dream of offending the Lord in this or other ways. The function of a musician in church is to lead people into the frame of mind and spirit to engage with the Presence of God. Nothing more.
faithbyloving 3 months ago
Dear ukulelemike, I am probably one of those contemporary musicians that you speak of. I am willing to be corrected and advised by my brothers and sisters in Christ. My desire is to serve Christ and to use whatever gifts the Lord has given me, to his Glory and Praise. My prayer ever time I play my instrument in church is that every note will be offered up to him to His praise. My prayer is that in spite of me being there, that the Lord will be there with us as he promised where 2 or 3 are
faithbyloving 3 months ago
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How do you reconcile this with Colossians 15-18?
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
oldgamergeek 5 months ago
Rock and Roll originally came from Mariners description of life on the seas in a ship. Then years later it also was interwoven in some Negro Spiritual songs in the early 20th Century. Alan Freed coined the term in the early 50s and there were connotations or double meanings tagged to the term about sex, but in its infancy it was harmless compared to the Rock music today.
sentry221 9 months ago
You make some very good points on here, especially about Hymns which are sadly fading away from today's churches, replaced by repetitious praise songs and in some churches loud CCM rock songs with watered down lyrics that put the focus on man instead of God. But, we cannot throw all of CCM under the bus. There are many great CCM songs and musicians whose messages are as powerful as the hymns. Just not enough of them, sad to say. 1 correction on the origin of rock and roll is...
sentry221 9 months ago
Man has always been about rebellion long before pop, rock, metal, or any other style came into being! Nature of fallen man period. Are you to trash the Christian who shops at Guitar Center when they purchase a instrument knowing ahead of time that the very same are used by secular artists.? Words come from the heart. Christians words are very different from the worlds. The music is just the style created for that generation. Now, show me in the Bible where Christian rock sends you to hell.
pointyguitarz 10 months ago
@pointyguitarz Yes, man has always been about rebellion, and rock music was specifically designed BY man to foster that rebellion. Its in the music, not the words-in fact, often the words are inconsequential to the actual message in the music. And I'm not talking instruments-with the exception of the drum, when used to hold the beat, which has long been used the same way to induce trances and hypnosis, especially among African and other pagan tribes in their worship of demons.
ukulelemike 10 months ago
@pointyguitarz Do some study of the pioneers of rock and its earlier ancestors, like jazz and blues, and you'll see that the words are rarely important-the message is in the music. BB King said that when he would play, the women would flock to him-no words, just music. Why do ugly, filthy, foul musicians like Mick Jagger and Keith Richards have no problem with getting women to have sex with them? The music-not the words, the music, the whole culture.
ukulelemike 10 months ago
@ukulelemike I do not believe that any kind of music is "evil" in itself. I mean, that there are no such things as rhythms or chord structures or melody lines that were born in hell. The idea that the devil has invented certain styles of music so that he could capture the innocent young souls of today's youth is not only without foundation, it's laughable. Where in the Bible does it say that the devil invented or created this? Chapter and verse please? And don't hand me some convoluted spin!
pointyguitarz 10 months ago
@pointyguitarz tell us what form of music we should be using such as 1 Corinthians 14:15, Ephesians 5:18-20, Colossians 3:16-15-17, James 5:13 and various scriptural thus overally leading us to the conclusion that Satan’s music must have been fundamentally and structuraly different from the music of God. The idea of a style of music cunningly crafted by Satan to be disruptive of God’s natural pattern I personally believe is fully consistent with the teachings of Scripture.
eph112joephil 9 months ago
@pointyguitarz believe it's telling us here that lucifer had musical instruments built into the form of his body, tabrets, a various percusion instruments like a tamberine, things that pernounce the rhythm in a song,and pipes, you have melody and harmony, for this reasonI believe lucifer knows music, that he knows it better than anybody, and therefore he is very wise in the the realm of music and that he is using music right now to not only bring changes in sociaty in general, but also to
eph112joephil 9 months ago
@pointyguitarz Now here the Bible is certanly giving a description of lucifer giving a in his prefalling form as he was there standing over the throne of God, watching over it,he was the anointed cherib that covereth the Bible says.and it was his job I believe literaly says here that" thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created."I
eph112joephil 9 months ago
@pointyguitarz "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created."
eph112joephil 9 months ago
@pointyguitarz And things that God does not want to hear which brought out in Amos 5:23, "Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; For I will not hear the melody of thy viols."Also in ezekiel there is a description and repusentation given of lucifer and his nature, his appearance and his character. now it never mentions lucifer by name,it calls him prince of tyrus or king of tyrus but I believe that the devil fits that catagory, and it is certanly of him,look what it says in ezekial, 28:13
eph112joephil 9 months ago
@pointyguitarz I can highly disagree with the ignorant remark you just made that you think it's laughable to think that the devil made a music form to entice young people and for this I also want to point out that according to the Bible, there are certain songs which God associates with sin such as Isaiah 23:15,"And it shall come to pass in that day, That Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, According to the days of one king: After the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot."
eph112joephil 9 months ago
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@eph112joephil You're such a creature of prooftexting. How long did it take you to reach your opinionated conclusions? You need to do more research on just how much musical power Lucifer had in heaven, it wasn't much and it wasn't about the music. Satan didn't tempt Jesus in the wilderness for 40 days and nights with music either! God gave man the ability to make music. It's up to man who to serve!
pointyguitarz 9 months ago
Christian rock band Petra sums it up best. They were huge in the 1980's, 90's.
"To say that rock and roll is evil is to give Satan credit for creating it. Satan created nothing. Satan robs and steals. We ask anyone to look at the fruit ... these are young people whose lives have taken positive directions because of the ministry of this band." Paul Jackson, manager.
Stryper? Christ said look at the fruit. It's not about how you feel about it!
I toured with both bands. God saw Fruit!
pointyguitarz 10 months ago
@pointyguitarz We aren't speaking of creation, but of modification. Satan has always taken what God has created perfect and induced man to pervert it-he did it with worship, with clothing, with God's word, and with music. God creates perfect, Satan, through man, perverts. Rock music, and its derivatives, are perversions of God's creation. As for the fruit, if you listen to Petra's music, you can see how their message became watered down as they got popular.
ukulelemike 10 months ago
@ukulelemike
By your argument, you might as well blame technology for perversion. Your strawman argument is flawed when you blame "culture" change in music tastes and so on. Are you to then blame God for creating Lucifer?
Blame the electric guitar? Drums? Amps? These are tools. Where you miss the boat is where Christ said to look at the fruit. Man looks at the outward appearance but God looks at the heart. You judge a band like Petra and dismiss the fruit? You don't even know these brothers!
pointyguitarz 10 months ago
@pointyguitarz I never said I blame culture so much as I blame Satan, and his tool, man. The culture is shaped by them, the tols often designed to be used for their purposes, just like the styles. And the fruit? A contemporary, culture and fad run church, rather than a God run church. The music, the the churches that se it, are totally controlled by what is popular in the lost world's styles, man, not God. The fruit is a worldly, carnal fruit.
ukulelemike 10 months ago
@ukulelemike
You're going to have to do better than that Mike. That's just a very broad paint stroke in general. Fad run churches sounds like a new religion, but it's been around since the creation of man. You seem hung up on style. Just what shade of red isn't Godly enough for you?
pointyguitarz 10 months ago
@pointyguitarz The shade of red that follows after, and seeks to emulate the rebellious music and fashion styles of the world and their god, the prince of this world, the devil. Rock music, from its roots and all it's derivatives have always been about the worst in man-rebellion, anger, hatred, drugs, violence, sex and occultism-why would we emulate that to worship God? Rock has ALWAYS been about rebellion. You can't change the color by changing a few words. It is the nature of the beast.
ukulelemike 10 months ago
You are right , but scripture says "they will heap upon themselves teachers who will tell em what their itching ears want to hear " this applies to so called new age christian music , another form of religion , lots of that going on, pure deception .
heatmanable 1 year ago
@heatmanable Indeed-CCM is all about continuing to listen to the wicked music styles that fed the flesh before salvation, but ding so in a form that makes one feel less guilty about it. They are scratching their ears with supposedly converted rock and roll, and style specifically invented to foster rebellion in the heart, and I see that result in 99% of those who listen to it. They drive out of the churches the older folks who don't like it, and feel blessed to do so. Wicked!
ukulelemike 1 year ago
as far as telling people to read their bible, that same bible says judge not lest ye be not judged. Secondly, to compare a type of music to nadab and abihu is way off base. People who critize any worship because it's not just kike theirs are not the answer, but rather part of the problem. Oh and by the way, I am a saved, sealed, and holy ghost filled Baptist preacher. Maybe YOU should reaad the bible, without putting your own spin on it.
beadyj 1 year ago
@beadyj That same Bible also says to prove all things, and to test the spirits whether they be of God. Judging people for their standing with God is one thing: judging activities and music and messages is vitally important to being an obedient Christian. Throughout the Bible, we see examples of types of worship being judged, because, as the Bible says, there is ONE way, and it is very narrow. CCM represents the broad path that wants to have it all.
ukulelemike 1 year ago
@beadyj
Three things that baptists don't recognize , the pope as head of the catholic church , the leader of the anglican church , and each other coming out of the liquor store (-: saved all right .....
heatmanable 1 year ago
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wvhunter1968 1 year ago
@wvhunter1968 First of all, to point out what you perceive to be hatred and sarcasm on my part, while at the same time calling me a hardliner and dimestore pastor, while accusing me of adding to the word of God, is very telling. You're simply a hypocrite, doing to me what you accuse me of doing, just because you disagree with me.
Second, if you listen, I'm not dealing with the gospel or salvation here, but godly, separated, holy living for Christians.
ukulelemike 1 year ago
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wvhunter1968 1 year ago
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wvhunter1968 1 year ago
@wvhunter1968 Not strumming my uke like a rock star-just a uke player. If you don't agree with my take on the CCM, that's fine-I'm not your pastor-if you choose, as a Christian, for whom all things are to become new, want to continue to wallow in music that sounds no different from the ungodly secular musicians, you enjoy and have a good time- I'll seek something higher, I think.
But thanks for your kind comments.
ukulelemike 1 year ago
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wvhunter1968 1 year ago
@wvhunter1968 As for salvation, its true that all you need to be saved is faith in the finished work of salvation. However, after salvation, you're right-we work. If you read your Bible, you'll find that we are saved 'unto good works'. "Old things are passed away, behold, all things are become new". Obedience begins after salvation, because we could not obey before then. Do you recommend we start teaching them the rules before they are in Christ?
ukulelemike 1 year ago
you look like a metal head my friend! im just joshing...
jesusmetal92107 1 year ago
I respect your opinion, however I will tell you that I (Christ-centered-metal-loving man that I am) was bought by the blood of Christ as you were, and that Jesus didn't come to save those who thought they had the answers, he came to save the lost (Luke 19:10). In fact he directly rebuked the pharisees (Acts 26:5; Matt 23:23-26; Mark 7:1-13; Luke 11:37-42; 18:12) and their self-righteous behavior. The old testament law was fulfilled THROUGH Christ; this is the Good News of the Gospel! God Bless
jpat09 2 years ago
I realize Jesus came to heal the sick, not the well-those who thought they had all the answers were the Pharisees, and they were blind to Him. But after salvation, we are supposed to change, to be transformed by the Spirit, not conformed to the world. When you remain involved in rebellion-based musical styles, that is not transformed. Try a NEW song, not the same rock and roll that has ruined many lives and characters.
ukulelemike 2 years ago
I am lucky enough to go to a church that has both contemporary and traditional worship styles. Some of my favorite songs are classic hymns. My favorite is "A Mighty Fortress is our God." In fact I have some of these on my ipod and do listen to them. I don't think it would be wise to continue this debate any further as it is obvious that you don't care about who I really am or my standing with Christ, you just want to push your point. Feel free to PM me if you feel like having a real conversation
jpat09 2 years ago
See, when you were lost, the metal you so love was appropriate-borne of rebellion against authority, including against God, (hence Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, Dio, and other blasphemously-named groups standing obviously against God), but once you are saved,. you are a NEW creature-OLD things have passed away, behold ALL things are become new. When you hold on to the old, God-hating trash, even if the words have changed, that isn't changed, that isn't new-its just a coat of 'Jesus" paint.
ukulelemike 2 years ago
i am not angry about what you teach but do not agree. i have attended many christian "rock" themed events and have seen people delivered and physically healed. if what you say is true then god did not honor this and we just annoyed him enough for him to do what we asked him for so we would stop. not true, he was honored and showed us love. or if this was not got then who?? remember a house divided can not stand
estherteple06 2 years ago
And my wife has told me of people healed through New Age gurus and metaphysical healers-do we believe everything done in God's name is always right, or of God? Just because a 'miracle' occurs does not make it of God-you can usually tell by the company those miraculous activities keep-if it's ungodly, worldly, unsanctified music styles like Rock and Roll, I would question it. Would you trust a miracle done at a KISS concert, because they were singing "God Gave Rock and Roll To You"?
whisperingsage 2 years ago
correction, the above comment was submitted by my husband on MY computer not thinking to sign into his own account. whisperingsage. He is ukulelemike. Please respond to him. Please.
whisperingsage 2 years ago
She's right, you know! Whoopsie!
ukulelemike 2 years ago
It isn't a house divided-it's not part of the house at all. Maybe a few of the people there are of the right house, but they are hanging in a different house for their entertainment, because they find God's house too boring and old-fashioned.
whisperingsage 2 years ago
should we go back to the the way david worshipped with harps and cymbals and horns so that our worship would not be considered contemporary? And what about paul's comment about "becoming all things to all people, so that we might win a few. could you say that jesus himself was contemporary with healing on the sabbath and teaching and speaking to women and children the way he did? which in jewish tradition and society back then women and children were treated different and lower as men.
estherteple06 2 years ago
Well, at least harps, cymbals and horns would be more biblical than electric guitar and drums. But really, no, not talking instruments so much, as worldly-type styles
Paul's comments were dealing specifically with Jewish/Gentile, as per the keeping of the laws and customs of the Jews with the Jews, but not keeping them with the Gentiles, as they would be a wall between them. There is really no more that can be added to that.
ukulelemike 2 years ago
I wonder why you chose style as the bases for your attempt at separation why not be separate by tuning your instruments different or playing music based on scales that are not the typical western major/minor scale? Or why not get really creative and create your own form of music that has never been done before if you really want to be separate?
atterolevad 2 years ago
Jesus healed on the Sabbath because it was always right to do good on the Sabbath, despite the man-made rules the Pharisees and Rabbis had added to the law. Same with speaking to children and women-Jesus gave the Law and He fulfilled it the way it was supposed to be, while the Pharisees taught the traditions of men as the commandments of God. He was doing it the way it was supposed to be done.
ukulelemike 2 years ago
the only type of music that i can tolerate is instrumental music in which i love all styles.However i find the sound of a human voice trying to sing to be very annoying.
atterolevad 2 years ago
Check your heart-the Bible says, "Make a joyful NOISE", not a pleasant sound. It is the heart the Lord appreciates, and thus, so it is the heart and the joy we should appreciate, not the quality or skill of the voice. After all, we sing ultimately for the Lord, correct?
ukulelemike 2 years ago
Anything contemporary given a little time ceases to be "contemporary". "Old" hymns in the time that they were written were considered contimporary.
superjoel25 2 years ago
Well, in the case of 'contemporary music', it doesn't so much refer to music written recently, but rather, music using the current, popular style of the day, in the case of CCM, that which follows the world's faddish rock, etc, styles. They have a tendency of changing constantly, while the things of God tend to remain much longer-hence, why hymns did not match the styles of popular music when written, and have generally not changed since.
ukulelemike 2 years ago
WIth all due respect and no intent to slander, I encourage you to consider the fact that many (yet not all) of the great hymns of the church originated from the tunes of songs commonly sung in bars in those days. That was the common secular form of music during that time period. My question is this: What makes today's popular forms of music more sinful than the music we derived these hymns from, if they are both secular in origin?
screaminginfidel 2 years ago
i never said it was pauls opinion,i said it was a man-made custom and not the will of GOd. paul is making reference to a custom that apparently was in place long before he gave this scripture. .Nowhere will you find a similar take on this topic earlier in the Bible. the fact that humans had this tradition before it was addressed in scripture is proof that it was a man made idea to start with and did not come from GOd.
guidav123 2 years ago
Perhaps, but the fact that the Lord had it addressed brings it then beyond custom and into the realm of what is and isn't God's will. When the Lord directs Paul to tell us that it is shameful for a woman to have short hair, and a man to have long hair, and thay, to pray or prophesy in those conditions dishonors their heads, (Being Christ), now we are talking sin, for is it not a sin to dishonor God?
ukulelemike 2 years ago
you never did address why you dont greet everyone with a kiss. after all god had it addresed ,took out of the realm of custom and placed in the bible as a direct command. romans 16:16
guidav123 2 years ago
We don;'t judge our praise and worship styles according to what we prefer, but according to holiness and separation. We cannot offer God they styles of the ungodly, which is what CCM is: a "Christian" version of the worlds vilest music styles, totally driven, not by sanctification, but the world's fashions and fads.
ukulelemike 2 years ago
And sorry, but my comment page is not an advertisement page for your preferred brand of music, especially when it is directly at odds to what I am dealing with. Sorry, but gotta delete it as spam. You don't have to agree with me, but respect what I am doing-argue if you like, but don't post something you know I don't agree with on MY comment page. Feel free, however, to link your channel here and post it there.
ukulelemike 2 years ago
I looked at this song, and checked out the band's site, and found not a word about Jesus, God, salvation, or anything that would make one think they are Christian. The music has not a single overtone of Christianity, and sounds no different from any heavy metal band out there. So, what's the difference? But thanks for playing.
whisperingsage 2 years ago
Well you dont have to look far in ccm to find songs about Jesus, God, and salvation. People who are seeking something different then the same sinful day to day life feel faded, at the end of their rope so to speak. In this song the singer is calling on the name of Christ to save him. You probably couldnt relate to people who are broken, so sure lyrics like these mean absolutly nothing to you. Jesus compassion was towards the lost and he knew their hurts. These are the people he dined with.
robrippen 2 years ago
The song that I looked up with this particular band was such a heavy rock that I couldn't understand a word they said. Also, we looked up another video on them and they were VERY worldly, what does the Bible say about touch not the unclean thing? What does the Bible say about be ye separate? Oh no our lost are mostly Fetal Alcohol damaged, we wouldn't know anything about pain and suffering here. Our people live in the desert with no power, including me for 16 yrs.
whisperingsage 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
As for the term "Rock" it is not the word itself that should count but the intention. Christian rock meant only as a genre of music to worship God is fine. When you CHOOSE to view it as sex then there is an issue.
P.S. Thank you for your message as it was enlightening.
puraLALAvida 2 years ago
Hello brother. What is it about hymns that God finds more appealing than ccm? Is it like God's grace to deny one's genuine praises because of the tune? Do you think God finds the music more important than the praises of the mouth? Nadab and Abihu were killed due to their focus on pride, viewing their offering as better than that which God commanded. Likewise, if one played music only to show off their capabilities, that would be wrong. However, often with ccm, like,hymns that is not the case.
puraLALAvida 2 years ago 5
Upon an instrument of ten strings, and upon the psaltery; upon the harp with a solemn sound.
Psalms 92:3
whisperingsage 2 years ago
And furthermore 1 Cor 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
These guys are always swinging their long hair around just as the heathen do.
whisperingsage 2 years ago
1 corinthians 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious,we have no such custom neither the churches of God. this verse clearly is saying that if a man wants long hair it isnt sin but rather only a custom that is not worth arguing over. and therefoer a church that insist on this custom is clearly not a church of god.
guidav123 2 years ago
You misread the verse-why would Paul spend 16 verses speasking on the importance of the hair issue, only to end it by basically saying, "But if anyone disagrees, its no big deal". The meaning of this takes more space than I have here, but it goes back to the first verse of chapter 7, this being an answer to a question from the Corinth church, probably asking if the women needed to wear a headcovering, and paul telling them it is the hair.
ukulelemike 2 years ago
anyone that interprets that verse any different then what i did is refusing to see the obvious truth and altering the bible to fit there personal opinion. its called self riteousness. you should repent.
guidav123 2 years ago
AS I said, so Paul spends 16 verses speaking on universal order and it's rules, then says that f anyone disagrees, no big deal, they don't have to do it-since when does God adjust His rule by whether we disagree or not. In fact, it is a sin to be contentious against the revealed will of God-we interpret by the entire context of the Bible, not just a single verse-nowhere does God allow us to alter His will because we disagree, so it cannot be understood in this way.
ukulelemike 2 years ago
paul is speaking of spiritual things ,not carnal. he's speaking of how GOd is the head of the man and man is the head of the woman. he uses the traditional custom of the hair issue to try to explain his point. and then realises that people would focuse on the wrong part of his comparison(thehair) so he then says to not inforce such a custom if it would make contention between you. the contention being with the man-made custom and not the will of GOd..
guidav123 2 years ago
Actually, the initial discussion was on headcoverings, and Paul was clarifying that the covering is the natural covering, the hair, given even before there were clothes. If you study some history of the time and area, you find that there was a controversy over women ceasing to wear headcoverings, and, if you refer back to the beginning of chapter 7, you'll see Paul began answering questions posed to him-this issue was probably one of them. Context always answers us.
ukulelemike 2 years ago
at one time God forbid the jewish men to cut there hair short enough to show there ears. showing ears was a sign of vanity and they were not allowed to cut it over there ears.
guidav123 2 years ago
I mean, come one-in one verse it says it's a shame for a man to have long hair-do we then believe that, if we disagree, and are contentious, meaning argumentative over it, then it's really okay, do what you want? Is God accepting of us living in a shameful manner just because we disagree with His will? Contention breeds rebellion, which is as the sin of witchcraft. Thus, we must conclude it has a different meaning that what we think-this is called rightly dividing the word of God.
ukulelemike 2 years ago
I do not have what is considered long hair nor do i have any emotional attachment to it. but i am not willing to stretch the meaning of the bible way out of order to try to justify any personal agenda. besides no where in the bible will you find "shame" being refered to as sin,however the opposite of shame,"pride" is sin. if you are proud of your hair syle is that not vanity which is also sin.shame is humility which humbles us. it is a good thing
guidav123 2 years ago
The word "Shame" here is the Greek word, "atimia", which means dishonor, ignominy or disgrace, not humility. IN other words, it is disgraceful for a man to have long hair. And whom do you think it disgraces when a Christian acts in a disgraceful manner? his Head, jesus Christ. The hair is a covering-this is the point of this passage, and if a man is covered, or has long hair, then he is never fit to pray or speak the word of God. He cannot please the Lord if he is covered.
ukulelemike 2 years ago
dishonouroror disgrace is just another way of saying humility. these things do in fact humble a person.
guidav123 2 years ago
Wrong-humility is an act which brings one into seeing themselves as less important than others around them, while disgrace is the result of acting shamefully-in this case, bring shame upon your head, Christ.
ukulelemike 2 years ago
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atterolevad 2 years ago
Read your bible-every time the word 'shame' is used it is not in the sense of godly humility, but of disgrace-every time! It also says that it is a shame for a woman to be shaven or shorn, just as it is a shame for a man to have long hair-each gender is put to shame when they act in a way that is opposite of the roles and order God has laid out, and the hair is a big part of it. This shame is not the opposite of pride, but the opposite of honor.
ukulelemike 2 years ago
so in other words damned if you do and damned if you dont. shame and pride are both sin. one simply cannot win .
guidav123 2 years ago
Again, shame here is not the opposite of pride-nowhere in the Bible is the word 'shame' used as a positive thing.
ukulelemike 2 years ago
and also length is relative. when you see jesus in a portrait with hair to his shoulders you must understand that in his day this was considered short , because woman's hair was to there waist if not there ankles. modern day custom is the only thing that makes mens hair as short as it is nowadays. womens hair keeps getting shorter so men think they have to now have crew cuts. GOd has seen many styles come and go through out the generations, and in spite of them all he looks at the heart.
guidav123 2 years ago
Jesus did not wear hair as in the portraits-He also was not skinny and effeminate, as other portraits depict Him. I pray you don't get much of your theology from pictures, seeing as Jesus never posed for any of them, so far as we know. Yes, Jesus looks at the heart, but it do