He might seem bigoted, but he's just sharing what he thinks. The real bigot is the person who made the video. You really need to stop projecting your bigotry on other people in an effort to demonize them, because I know you aren't even willing to put your emotions aside and study economics to find out why Republicans hate Obama so much or why homosexuality and abortion are bad. As far as anybody is concerned, everybody is entitled to their faith, so why is him being catholic a complaint?
This guy went to my country Philippines and started yapping against our Reproductive Health Bill proposal! Type "RealCatholicTV RH Bill". He made a video on it. The Church here has created so many problems and he is FOR them just cos he's Catholic! He's so disrespectful cos he doesn't even live here, where there are so many poor people (esp. women) who NEED rep. health education and access to contraceptives! He even lies abt the Bill being abt abortion! Many Catholics here SUPPORT the Bill!
@sashadream123 They often claim that what their church does is for the better of the people, but I don't think they quite grasp the fact that everyone has a different perspective on what is acceptable and what isn't. It's because of this that I feel the Catholic Church and its members shouldn't be into many positions of power. Their devotion to their faith is admirable, but it tends to alienate them from the views of others who don't share their perspective.
I'm one of the few Christians that's OK with homesexual's.
Seriously,the Religious hate for them is just generalizing. I've seen Gays who are Protestant Christians, but they still get hate among religious groups.
@shadowluma Doesn't make any sense to me either. What's even worse is how some ministries attempt to change gays' sexual orientation, which fails at least 100% of the time. "Dr." Nicolosi, the conservative Roman Catholic who founded NARTH, even admitted to this. He stated that 1/3 of his patients "have some control" but still engage in homosexual conduct, 1/3 are "cured" but still are attracted to the same sex, and 1/3 aren't changed at all. "Reparative" therapy? I think not.
God, I can't stand people like this. -__- What;s wrong with being gay? I like gay dudes. :D But srsly, what's with the whole "If you're homosmexual, YOU'RE GOING TO HELL!!11!!!!1" I mean, if God did exist he wouldn't hate his own creation for being different, he crafted them to be unique. :/
And, my sentiments exactly. I'm sure Jesus himself wouldn't approve of people acting this way, as homosexuality was never mentioned by him. If gayness is so against God's will, then why would his "only begotten son" never mention it? I personally think the Catholic Church and others may have over-emphasized the anti-gay statements in the Bible as a way of pushing their own homophobia. They'll recite Lev 18:22 to death, but they never touch Lev 11:6-13.
@Mystrymeat --- Christians believe that Jesus is the eternal Son of the Father. They believe that He is the Divine Logos, or the Divine Word of God. Christians also call the Holy Bible "the Word of God," and for a good reason. Christians believe that Jesus is the source of every word in the Holy Bible, and that the Holy Spirit inspired regular men to write down everything that the Father speaks (the Divine Word), which is Jesus, the Son of God.
@Mystrymeat --- Essentially, Jesus "wrote" Leviticus just as much as he "wrote" Deuteronomy, or the Gospel books, or St. Paul's letters. Every reference to homosexuality is directly from God through the Bible. Some things, like your reference to Lev 11:6-13, are part of God's revelation to His people. The kosher laws of the Old Covenant were most likely for the sake of the Israelites'/Jews' health. Those things were not morally wrong...
@Mystrymeat --- That is why, in Acts 11:1-10, God allows us to eat all food: "Now the apostles and the brethren who were in Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcision party criticized him, saying, 'Why did you go to uncircumcised men and eat with them?...'"
@Mystrymeat --- "...But Peter began and explained to them in order: 'I was in the city of Joppa praying; and in a trance I saw a vision, something descending, like a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came down to me. Looking at it closely I observed animals and beasts of prey and reptiles and birds of the air..."
@Mystrymeat --- "And I heard a voice saying to me, `Rise, Peter; kill and eat.' But I said, `No, Lord; for nothing common or unclean has ever entered my mouth.' But the voice answered a second time from heaven, `What God has cleansed you must not call common.' This happened three times, and all was drawn up again into heaven.'"
@Mystrymeat --- However, because homosexual activity is (Biblically) considered objectively disordered and morally wrong (as is obvious by its Old Covenant punishment of death an New Covenant condemnation of the same actions in, for example, Romans 1:26-32), God does not change His mind and allow such things.
I am not afraid of people who participate in homosexual activity, nor do I hate them. I am just trying to show that the Christian position is not hypocritical or hateful. It's Biblical.
@divineofficer At what point, exactly, did I say the Christian postition was, by default, hypocritical and hateful? There may be a vast amount of hypocrites and hateful people following the religion, but it doesn't mean I think every Christian is hateful and/or a hypocrite. I understand what you're saying with the story of Peter and you do make a good point.. But if the biblical god doesn't change its mind, then why don't modern Christians keep all of the feasts which this god said to keep?
@Mystrymeat --- I suppose, after looking at the posts again, that you never explicitly said that the Christian position was hateful or hypocritical. I apologize for saying so. However, so that you understand where I was coming from, I made an inference.
The man in the video (Michael Voris) does not pull any punches when he puts out "The Vortex." Oftentimes, I feel that he is too forceful in his approach. Even so, what he says is almost always researched and in line with Catholic teaching...
@Mystrymeat --- That said, I agree that he seems divisive, extreme, and hateful at times. He is a person of a certain temperment, which is concerned with truth above all else. He (and specifically Catholic teaching) reject the notion that different people can have their own perspectives on what is right and wrong and, at the same time, that those perspectives can all be legitimate. It's what the Church calls "moral relativism."
@Mystrymeat --- Often, people will say that, taken to its logical conclusion, moral relativism (or the idea that all perspectives are equally true) will lead to anarchy and chaos. For example, if one person believes that graffiti is destruction/ruining of another's property, but the tagger believes it is art, who is to say that the tagger shouldn't be able to graffiti all over someone else's property (even the public's property)? That is a soft example, because I don't want to seem extreme.
@Mystrymeat --- Another example is this: Suppose you live with roommates. You have stated that you would appreciate it if they did not take your food/clothing/DVDs/car without asking. If a roommate decides to do so anyway and you confront him/her about it, they may respond with this (stemming from a morally relativistic background): "Don't impose your morality on me. I can take what I want, because I believe that all things are common property." There are laws against this, but for how long?
@Mystrymeat ---From whence do these laws originate? This is why I said that the Christian perspective is not hypocritical or hateful; based on Michael Voris's accurate (but abrasive) presentation of facts and your assertion that he is hypocritical/hateful, I assumed that you meant that what he was saying was also hypocritical/hateful.
I have the benefit of understanding where he is coming from, so I don't blame you or fault you for thinking what you think.
@Mystrymeat --- I hope that cleared up that point, and that we understand each other. I appreciate your thoughtful response. Which brings me to your question about the keeping of the feasts. I am so glad that you asked about that.
In the Catholic Church (to which I belong), practically every day constitutes the celebration of a feast. We celebrate the heroic lives of loving people (Saints), holy days (Easter, Christmas, etc...), and events in the history of God's people...
@Mystrymeat --- Many of the ancient Jewish feasts have been fulfilled through Jesus Christ. The Old Covenant included many of the unfulfilled feasts, and we believe that Jesus brought about the fulfillment of everything that came before Him. He did so through the New Covenant (Covenant and Testament mean the same thing, so if you are familiar with the Bible's Old Testament and New Testament, it should make even more sense).
@Mystrymeat --- Feasts like Yom Kippur, Sukkot (the Feast of Booths/Tabernacles), and Pesach (the Passover) were fulfilled through Jesus. Yom Kippur (the Feast of Atonement) is now fulfilled by Lent, the Triduum (Holy Thursday, Good Friday, Holy Saturday), and in a sense, Easter. It is also fulfilled through the Sacrament of Confession, in which we seek forgiveness for our wrongdoing and perform atonement/reparation to the community for our sins. Sukkot is also fulfilled through Lent...
@Mystrymeat --- Sukkot is the celebration of the type of dwelling in which the Israelites dwelt during the 40 years in the desert after the Exodus from Egypt. Lent is a 40 day remembrance of Jesus's 40 days fasting in the desert, which is a perfect fulfillment of the 40 years of the Israelites' desert time (Jesus prayed and did not sin against the Father while in the desert, even though tempted, while the Israelites sinned greatly; he was redeeming that "event").
@Mystrymeat --- At Sukkot, they also eat meals, probably in remembrance of the manna (in Hebrew, "What is it?"), which was bread sent from heaven for the Israelites to eat in the desert. After all, there isn't too much food to be had in the desert, especially for an entire nation always on the move. If you are familiar with Catholic teaching, The Holy Eucharist is called the Bread from Heaven, and we also believe that it is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus. More on that later...
@Mystrymeat --- Finally, at Sukkot, they give thanks and pray prayers of thanksgiving for the abundance of the harvest (Sukkot is also called "The Feast of Ingathering"). The Catholic term "Eucharist" (the celebration of which is also considered a feast) is Greek for "thanksgiving."
Passover is yet another feast fulfilled by Jesus and celebrated by Catholics. Jesus instituted the Eucharist at a Passover meal, and used Passover prayers, much of which was incorporated into the Catholic Mass.
@Mystrymeat --- At Passover, the Jews would pick an unblemished young male lamb, slaughter it (without breaking any of its bones), slide a piece of wood along its spine and along the back from arm to arm ("crucifying it," or putting it in the shape of a cross), and roast it, after which they would eat every edible part of the lamb. Jesus is called the "Lamb of God" at the beginning of the Gospel of John (by the prophet John the Baptist).
@Mystrymeat --- He was young (very young by Jewish standards of the time), unblemished (without sin), male (obviously), and he was slaughtered, crucified, and not one of his bones was broken, even though it was customary to break the legs of those crucified after some time. This was to speed up their death but, because he had already died, they simply pierced his side with a lance/spear. You can begin to see the many fulfillments of the Catholic celebration of ancient Jewish feasts.
@Mystrymeat --- Now I know I've written a great deal, and I apologize if it is a bother. I am simply trying to demonstrate to you how we do, in fact, celebrate the feasts that God commanded in the Old Testament/Covenant. However, because the New is the perfection of the Old, these feasts are often celebrated in several ways, many of them overlapping (as did the meaning of some of the ancient Jewish feasts). I hope that clears more things up, and to get everything I wrote, go back a page! :)
@divineofficer So you keep each and every feast, eh? I guess that's typical of well-read Catholics being that they often follow their teachings to the letter, which, in my opinion is admirable but also a bit scary. My main problem with Voris and CatholicTV aren't necessarily the arguments presented (he's allowed to have a bias after all) but more-so how they present them. The abrasiveness, comment censorship, and attacks on those with other opinions also don't do any justice for them.
@Mystrymeat --- I agree with you regarding the presentation of the arguments (and often facts) that Real Catholic TV puts out. I believe that he is trying to use an extreme approach to delivering his content to grab attention, and he hopes that the information he presents will strike a chord in listeners despite the presentation.
@Mystrymeat --- I suppose it is fairly easy for Catholics to keep every feast, so long as they attend daily Mass. You know, instead of just on Sunday. That practice flows from ancient Judaism as well, and especially from those who lived in and around Jerusalem. They had several periods of time each day when everyone would drop what they were doing (planned ahead of time, of course) and go to the temple to pray in community.
@Mystrymeat --- One prayer that some Catholics say (especially priests and religious), the Liturgy of the Hours, is based on this ancient Jewish practice. If you think about it, going to daily Mass (which is a bit shorter, say 30-40 minutes) is less "invasive" than what the ancient Jews did. In addition, daily Mass is celebrated at 7 A.M. or 5-5:30 P.M. every day, making it possible for Catholics who have to work to live their faith even more fully.
@Mystrymeat --- Each day at Mass, we celebrate the feast of the day and, on special holidays (like those mentioned in my previous posts), which are often called Holy Days of Obligation, all Catholics are supposed to come and celebrate. One professor of mine once said, "Every day is a party day in the Catholic Church!"
Looked at in this way, it shouldn't be too scary. I find it amazing and fulfilling! Just imagine being able to experience close community interaction every day!
@Mystrymeat --- I know that, although I dislike his abrasive presentation, I appreciate the facts he puts out (and have checked them several times to make sure I wasn't simply listening to a conspiratory nut). I also agree that he shouldn't attack others, even with the most contradictory opinions. I find it most productive to have a rational conversation, like the one in which we are engaging. By the way, thank you for your thoughtful questions and calm, reasonable answers. It's appreciated.
@maudib2142 Catholicism is a form of Christianity, in fact it's one of the first recorded forms to have ever existed. I think you mean "not protestant", being that protestantism was where modern "Christianity" as you call it, broke off from its Catholic origins.
ahhh it was the original form of christianity with regard to man trying to 'control' it. This is another theory that exists suggesting that even as man tried to control it, it would eventually come full circle yet again.
@maudib2142 --- Or perhaps it is the institution set up by Christ Himself to explain and reveal the fullness of His teaching. After all, Scripture tells us that not everything He did and said is within it: "But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written" (John 21:25).
As a matter of fact, the people who learned from the disciples espoused explicitly Catholic beliefs.
Chrisitian beliefs, nit neccessarily Catholic beliefs. This may be a grey area since even what we have seen from the old testament, men took what god gave and twisted it to include worshipping idols, idolatry, etc. You see this in the modern day Catholic church with regard to idolizing mary, the crucifix, saints, etc. Combine this with the belief that having to confess to a priest for absolute forgiveness instead of speaking through Christ, and the acts of works to absolve us.
@maudib2142 --- Take, for example, St. Ignatius of Antioch. He was a disciple of St. John the Apostle (the one who Jesus loved from the Gospel of John), and he was martyred in the early 100s. Historical documents (his Letter to the Smyrnæans) tell us that, on his way to martyrdom he used two very distinct words. The first was "catholic," describing the Church as universal, just as the Catholic Church does today. The second was "Eucharist," another very Catholic term.
Perhaps he misunderstood the message from John and Christ to put too much reverence into one person (pope, bishop) instead of Christ. Kind of like the pharisees.
@divineofficer Eucharist isn't a specifically Catholic term. It's Greek for "thanks, thanksgiving." It's used throughout the Septuagint to refer to any form of thanksgiving. The word is still used among many Christian sects that use the Septuagint or a Bible translated from it.
@maudib2142 --- Here's a quote from the document itself: "See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop..."
@maudib2142 --- "...Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrnæans, chapter 8).
In case you don't know, the Eucharist is the Catholic belief that Jesus Christ, through the priest, changes bread and wine into His very Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.
@maudib2142 --- We believe that the "accidents," or the physical characteristics of the bread and wine remain. As such, it still smells, sounds, looks, feels, and tastes like bread and wine. However, what it IS (theologically, its substance) is changed solely through the power of God. In this way, God gives us the greatest gift a human can receive: God Himself. The Eucharist is a nuptial feast, the Body of Christ becomes one with His bride, the Church, in all her members.
@maudib2142 --- We call this change of substance "transubstantiation" (a term coined at the Council of Nicaea to describe what happens). There are many, many allusions to God's ultimate plan for this beautiful gift throughout Scripture, starting very early on in the Old Testament. It is simply the fulfillment of God's plan to bring His people into the closest, most intimate, most personal relationship with Him that anyone could ever conceive. It is beautiful, it is fully Christian.
By entering into a personal relationship with Christ, not the bishop or Catholic church specifically, one can experience this beautiful relationship. From what I have personally exerienced, The catholic church has attempted to put too many constraints on what to believe and what not to believe, what to follow and what not to follow. For example in Ireland, the church doesnt even pass out bibles, instead they expect the people to only receive the word of god from a pulpit.
@maudib2142 yeah, we receive from the pulpit worldwide. You know why, because if you reeeeeally stop and pay attention, thru out the whole year we read the whole bible from beginning to end. Now thats the way to preach the Word of God:) Not just picking from here and there choosing whatever man wants to preach. We preach directly from God guiding us thru the seasons and holidays etc...
@maudib2142 And thats the best part of being a catholic. By receiving The Eucharist, we're in a more ever so real relationship with Jesus both physically and spiritually than someone professing they are "saved".
hmmm, thats what a lot of "religious" people say. I read the bible from cover to cover and know everything. Theres a difference between reading the bible and actually istening to God's word. Maybe you should also strengthen your knowledge outside the bible to see other people's viewpoints and then cross reference that with gods word, that might help your argument ;) Stop using traditions as justification
@maudib2142 uhhhh, outside the bible is tradition believe it or not. Oh, believe me, i know alot too. So if you know the bible and "know" everything. Do you live every single day, at every single moment of your life striving to be like our Lord God. I do. In everything i do is all about and for God. Readinga dn knowing the bible and listening to the Word of God are always the same.
@maudib2142 Remember what Saint Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, in the bible, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the TRADITIONS which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us: :) (Meaning both WRITTEN (the bible) and ORAL (Tradition) - ). It says it right there proving not to only follow the bible.
@maudib2142 Just so you know, i go to mass (church) every single day, i pray every single day (morning, noon, evening, and night), while at work, i have my ipod with me and all i listen to this awesome speaker, Michael Voris, and maaaany other great spakers, at home, i don't watch tv at all unless its the religious channel or movie (dvd) i do lots of research, reading, spiritual reading about God and my faith etc..So you can't say i don't know anything.
@maudib2142 I may not know the bible like you do, but at least i'm learning it thru all this that i do. I am very, very, verrrry careful what i listen to and learn because there's sooo much misleading errors and false teachings out there especially these days. I know its The Holy Spirit guiding me because everyday that i pray, i give myself entirely to The Most Holy Trinity so that i can be totally consumed to be guided in the right direction.
Catholicism is a form of religion (Man made traditions not neccesarily concurrent with Christs teaching), not a direct reflection of Christianity. This is why Christianity has had a few (many) bad labels over the course of two thousand years.
@maudib2142 Believe me, i don't have any pride whatsoever. I despise that and selfishness.. Oh and thank you for the nice typical response;) It's only the truth:)
@SonicobbsessedR2 I don't blame you. Politics have become a confusing predicament. On one hand you've got a party of people who want to help the poor but also want to form a more unitarian government, and on the other hand you've got a party that wants to allow businesses to prosper but prefer a confederal government. Both parties tug in the opposite direction and each acts childish and stubborn towards the other, even though both want to try to improve the nation. What to do, what to do?
He might seem bigoted, but he's just sharing what he thinks. The real bigot is the person who made the video. You really need to stop projecting your bigotry on other people in an effort to demonize them, because I know you aren't even willing to put your emotions aside and study economics to find out why Republicans hate Obama so much or why homosexuality and abortion are bad. As far as anybody is concerned, everybody is entitled to their faith, so why is him being catholic a complaint?
iameiame 15 hours ago
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Michael Voris is a fascist!
TheMrgoku1985 1 month ago
This guy went to my country Philippines and started yapping against our Reproductive Health Bill proposal! Type "RealCatholicTV RH Bill". He made a video on it. The Church here has created so many problems and he is FOR them just cos he's Catholic! He's so disrespectful cos he doesn't even live here, where there are so many poor people (esp. women) who NEED rep. health education and access to contraceptives! He even lies abt the Bill being abt abortion! Many Catholics here SUPPORT the Bill!
sashadream123 9 months ago
@sashadream123 They often claim that what their church does is for the better of the people, but I don't think they quite grasp the fact that everyone has a different perspective on what is acceptable and what isn't. It's because of this that I feel the Catholic Church and its members shouldn't be into many positions of power. Their devotion to their faith is admirable, but it tends to alienate them from the views of others who don't share their perspective.
Mystrymeat 9 months ago
I'm one of the few Christians that's OK with homesexual's.
Seriously,the Religious hate for them is just generalizing. I've seen Gays who are Protestant Christians, but they still get hate among religious groups.
Makes no sense to me.
shadowluma 10 months ago
@shadowluma Doesn't make any sense to me either. What's even worse is how some ministries attempt to change gays' sexual orientation, which fails at least 100% of the time. "Dr." Nicolosi, the conservative Roman Catholic who founded NARTH, even admitted to this. He stated that 1/3 of his patients "have some control" but still engage in homosexual conduct, 1/3 are "cured" but still are attracted to the same sex, and 1/3 aren't changed at all. "Reparative" therapy? I think not.
Mystrymeat 10 months ago
Yes, evil certainly does dress well.
1971SuperLead 11 months ago
This guy is so full of it. Good for you, to call him on it.
SusanRenee49 11 months ago
....Thank God I'm Christian. pfft
rexplosi0n 1 year ago
God, I can't stand people like this. -__- What;s wrong with being gay? I like gay dudes. :D But srsly, what's with the whole "If you're homosmexual, YOU'RE GOING TO HELL!!11!!!!1" I mean, if God did exist he wouldn't hate his own creation for being different, he crafted them to be unique. :/
Doodlez98 1 year ago
Pffft! XD This is hilarious! Btw, what's the background song name? I've listened to it before but I forgetz the name. D:
Doodlez98 1 year ago
@Doodlez98 "Bob Marley- Sun is Shining"
And, my sentiments exactly. I'm sure Jesus himself wouldn't approve of people acting this way, as homosexuality was never mentioned by him. If gayness is so against God's will, then why would his "only begotten son" never mention it? I personally think the Catholic Church and others may have over-emphasized the anti-gay statements in the Bible as a way of pushing their own homophobia. They'll recite Lev 18:22 to death, but they never touch Lev 11:6-13.
Mystrymeat 1 year ago
@Mystrymeat I so agree! :D
OBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Doodlez98 1 year ago
@Mystrymeat --- Christians believe that Jesus is the eternal Son of the Father. They believe that He is the Divine Logos, or the Divine Word of God. Christians also call the Holy Bible "the Word of God," and for a good reason. Christians believe that Jesus is the source of every word in the Holy Bible, and that the Holy Spirit inspired regular men to write down everything that the Father speaks (the Divine Word), which is Jesus, the Son of God.
I know that seems a bit complicated, but...
divineofficer 8 months ago
@Mystrymeat --- Essentially, Jesus "wrote" Leviticus just as much as he "wrote" Deuteronomy, or the Gospel books, or St. Paul's letters. Every reference to homosexuality is directly from God through the Bible. Some things, like your reference to Lev 11:6-13, are part of God's revelation to His people. The kosher laws of the Old Covenant were most likely for the sake of the Israelites'/Jews' health. Those things were not morally wrong...
divineofficer 8 months ago
@Mystrymeat --- That is why, in Acts 11:1-10, God allows us to eat all food: "Now the apostles and the brethren who were in Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcision party criticized him, saying, 'Why did you go to uncircumcised men and eat with them?...'"
divineofficer 8 months ago
@Mystrymeat --- "...But Peter began and explained to them in order: 'I was in the city of Joppa praying; and in a trance I saw a vision, something descending, like a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came down to me. Looking at it closely I observed animals and beasts of prey and reptiles and birds of the air..."
divineofficer 8 months ago
@Mystrymeat --- "And I heard a voice saying to me, `Rise, Peter; kill and eat.' But I said, `No, Lord; for nothing common or unclean has ever entered my mouth.' But the voice answered a second time from heaven, `What God has cleansed you must not call common.' This happened three times, and all was drawn up again into heaven.'"
divineofficer 8 months ago
@Mystrymeat --- However, because homosexual activity is (Biblically) considered objectively disordered and morally wrong (as is obvious by its Old Covenant punishment of death an New Covenant condemnation of the same actions in, for example, Romans 1:26-32), God does not change His mind and allow such things.
I am not afraid of people who participate in homosexual activity, nor do I hate them. I am just trying to show that the Christian position is not hypocritical or hateful. It's Biblical.
divineofficer 8 months ago
@divineofficer At what point, exactly, did I say the Christian postition was, by default, hypocritical and hateful? There may be a vast amount of hypocrites and hateful people following the religion, but it doesn't mean I think every Christian is hateful and/or a hypocrite. I understand what you're saying with the story of Peter and you do make a good point.. But if the biblical god doesn't change its mind, then why don't modern Christians keep all of the feasts which this god said to keep?
Mystrymeat 8 months ago
@Mystrymeat --- I suppose, after looking at the posts again, that you never explicitly said that the Christian position was hateful or hypocritical. I apologize for saying so. However, so that you understand where I was coming from, I made an inference.
The man in the video (Michael Voris) does not pull any punches when he puts out "The Vortex." Oftentimes, I feel that he is too forceful in his approach. Even so, what he says is almost always researched and in line with Catholic teaching...
divineofficer 8 months ago
@Mystrymeat --- That said, I agree that he seems divisive, extreme, and hateful at times. He is a person of a certain temperment, which is concerned with truth above all else. He (and specifically Catholic teaching) reject the notion that different people can have their own perspectives on what is right and wrong and, at the same time, that those perspectives can all be legitimate. It's what the Church calls "moral relativism."
divineofficer 8 months ago
@Mystrymeat --- Often, people will say that, taken to its logical conclusion, moral relativism (or the idea that all perspectives are equally true) will lead to anarchy and chaos. For example, if one person believes that graffiti is destruction/ruining of another's property, but the tagger believes it is art, who is to say that the tagger shouldn't be able to graffiti all over someone else's property (even the public's property)? That is a soft example, because I don't want to seem extreme.
divineofficer 8 months ago
@Mystrymeat --- Another example is this: Suppose you live with roommates. You have stated that you would appreciate it if they did not take your food/clothing/DVDs/car without asking. If a roommate decides to do so anyway and you confront him/her about it, they may respond with this (stemming from a morally relativistic background): "Don't impose your morality on me. I can take what I want, because I believe that all things are common property." There are laws against this, but for how long?
divineofficer 8 months ago
@Mystrymeat ---From whence do these laws originate? This is why I said that the Christian perspective is not hypocritical or hateful; based on Michael Voris's accurate (but abrasive) presentation of facts and your assertion that he is hypocritical/hateful, I assumed that you meant that what he was saying was also hypocritical/hateful.
I have the benefit of understanding where he is coming from, so I don't blame you or fault you for thinking what you think.
divineofficer 8 months ago
@Mystrymeat --- I hope that cleared up that point, and that we understand each other. I appreciate your thoughtful response. Which brings me to your question about the keeping of the feasts. I am so glad that you asked about that.
In the Catholic Church (to which I belong), practically every day constitutes the celebration of a feast. We celebrate the heroic lives of loving people (Saints), holy days (Easter, Christmas, etc...), and events in the history of God's people...
divineofficer 8 months ago
@Mystrymeat --- Many of the ancient Jewish feasts have been fulfilled through Jesus Christ. The Old Covenant included many of the unfulfilled feasts, and we believe that Jesus brought about the fulfillment of everything that came before Him. He did so through the New Covenant (Covenant and Testament mean the same thing, so if you are familiar with the Bible's Old Testament and New Testament, it should make even more sense).
divineofficer 8 months ago
@Mystrymeat --- Feasts like Yom Kippur, Sukkot (the Feast of Booths/Tabernacles), and Pesach (the Passover) were fulfilled through Jesus. Yom Kippur (the Feast of Atonement) is now fulfilled by Lent, the Triduum (Holy Thursday, Good Friday, Holy Saturday), and in a sense, Easter. It is also fulfilled through the Sacrament of Confession, in which we seek forgiveness for our wrongdoing and perform atonement/reparation to the community for our sins. Sukkot is also fulfilled through Lent...
divineofficer 8 months ago
@Mystrymeat --- Sukkot is the celebration of the type of dwelling in which the Israelites dwelt during the 40 years in the desert after the Exodus from Egypt. Lent is a 40 day remembrance of Jesus's 40 days fasting in the desert, which is a perfect fulfillment of the 40 years of the Israelites' desert time (Jesus prayed and did not sin against the Father while in the desert, even though tempted, while the Israelites sinned greatly; he was redeeming that "event").
divineofficer 8 months ago
@Mystrymeat --- At Sukkot, they also eat meals, probably in remembrance of the manna (in Hebrew, "What is it?"), which was bread sent from heaven for the Israelites to eat in the desert. After all, there isn't too much food to be had in the desert, especially for an entire nation always on the move. If you are familiar with Catholic teaching, The Holy Eucharist is called the Bread from Heaven, and we also believe that it is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus. More on that later...
divineofficer 8 months ago
@Mystrymeat --- Finally, at Sukkot, they give thanks and pray prayers of thanksgiving for the abundance of the harvest (Sukkot is also called "The Feast of Ingathering"). The Catholic term "Eucharist" (the celebration of which is also considered a feast) is Greek for "thanksgiving."
Passover is yet another feast fulfilled by Jesus and celebrated by Catholics. Jesus instituted the Eucharist at a Passover meal, and used Passover prayers, much of which was incorporated into the Catholic Mass.
divineofficer 8 months ago
@Mystrymeat --- At Passover, the Jews would pick an unblemished young male lamb, slaughter it (without breaking any of its bones), slide a piece of wood along its spine and along the back from arm to arm ("crucifying it," or putting it in the shape of a cross), and roast it, after which they would eat every edible part of the lamb. Jesus is called the "Lamb of God" at the beginning of the Gospel of John (by the prophet John the Baptist).
divineofficer 8 months ago
@Mystrymeat --- He was young (very young by Jewish standards of the time), unblemished (without sin), male (obviously), and he was slaughtered, crucified, and not one of his bones was broken, even though it was customary to break the legs of those crucified after some time. This was to speed up their death but, because he had already died, they simply pierced his side with a lance/spear. You can begin to see the many fulfillments of the Catholic celebration of ancient Jewish feasts.
divineofficer 8 months ago
@Mystrymeat --- Now I know I've written a great deal, and I apologize if it is a bother. I am simply trying to demonstrate to you how we do, in fact, celebrate the feasts that God commanded in the Old Testament/Covenant. However, because the New is the perfection of the Old, these feasts are often celebrated in several ways, many of them overlapping (as did the meaning of some of the ancient Jewish feasts). I hope that clears more things up, and to get everything I wrote, go back a page! :)
divineofficer 8 months ago
@divineofficer So you keep each and every feast, eh? I guess that's typical of well-read Catholics being that they often follow their teachings to the letter, which, in my opinion is admirable but also a bit scary. My main problem with Voris and CatholicTV aren't necessarily the arguments presented (he's allowed to have a bias after all) but more-so how they present them. The abrasiveness, comment censorship, and attacks on those with other opinions also don't do any justice for them.
Mystrymeat 8 months ago
@Mystrymeat --- I agree with you regarding the presentation of the arguments (and often facts) that Real Catholic TV puts out. I believe that he is trying to use an extreme approach to delivering his content to grab attention, and he hopes that the information he presents will strike a chord in listeners despite the presentation.
divineofficer 8 months ago
@Mystrymeat --- I suppose it is fairly easy for Catholics to keep every feast, so long as they attend daily Mass. You know, instead of just on Sunday. That practice flows from ancient Judaism as well, and especially from those who lived in and around Jerusalem. They had several periods of time each day when everyone would drop what they were doing (planned ahead of time, of course) and go to the temple to pray in community.
divineofficer 8 months ago
@Mystrymeat --- One prayer that some Catholics say (especially priests and religious), the Liturgy of the Hours, is based on this ancient Jewish practice. If you think about it, going to daily Mass (which is a bit shorter, say 30-40 minutes) is less "invasive" than what the ancient Jews did. In addition, daily Mass is celebrated at 7 A.M. or 5-5:30 P.M. every day, making it possible for Catholics who have to work to live their faith even more fully.
divineofficer 8 months ago
@Mystrymeat --- Each day at Mass, we celebrate the feast of the day and, on special holidays (like those mentioned in my previous posts), which are often called Holy Days of Obligation, all Catholics are supposed to come and celebrate. One professor of mine once said, "Every day is a party day in the Catholic Church!"
Looked at in this way, it shouldn't be too scary. I find it amazing and fulfilling! Just imagine being able to experience close community interaction every day!
divineofficer 8 months ago
@Mystrymeat --- I know that, although I dislike his abrasive presentation, I appreciate the facts he puts out (and have checked them several times to make sure I wasn't simply listening to a conspiratory nut). I also agree that he shouldn't attack others, even with the most contradictory opinions. I find it most productive to have a rational conversation, like the one in which we are engaging. By the way, thank you for your thoughtful questions and calm, reasonable answers. It's appreciated.
divineofficer 8 months ago
@Mystrymeat
I definately agree ;) That's the catholic church for ya though, not christianity
maudib2142 8 months ago
@maudib2142 Catholicism is a form of Christianity, in fact it's one of the first recorded forms to have ever existed. I think you mean "not protestant", being that protestantism was where modern "Christianity" as you call it, broke off from its Catholic origins.
Mystrymeat 8 months ago
@Mystrymeat
ahhh it was the original form of christianity with regard to man trying to 'control' it. This is another theory that exists suggesting that even as man tried to control it, it would eventually come full circle yet again.
maudib2142 8 months ago
@maudib2142 --- Or perhaps it is the institution set up by Christ Himself to explain and reveal the fullness of His teaching. After all, Scripture tells us that not everything He did and said is within it: "But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written" (John 21:25).
As a matter of fact, the people who learned from the disciples espoused explicitly Catholic beliefs.
divineofficer 8 months ago
@divineofficer
Chrisitian beliefs, nit neccessarily Catholic beliefs. This may be a grey area since even what we have seen from the old testament, men took what god gave and twisted it to include worshipping idols, idolatry, etc. You see this in the modern day Catholic church with regard to idolizing mary, the crucifix, saints, etc. Combine this with the belief that having to confess to a priest for absolute forgiveness instead of speaking through Christ, and the acts of works to absolve us.
maudib2142 8 months ago
@maudib2142 --- Take, for example, St. Ignatius of Antioch. He was a disciple of St. John the Apostle (the one who Jesus loved from the Gospel of John), and he was martyred in the early 100s. Historical documents (his Letter to the Smyrnæans) tell us that, on his way to martyrdom he used two very distinct words. The first was "catholic," describing the Church as universal, just as the Catholic Church does today. The second was "Eucharist," another very Catholic term.
divineofficer 8 months ago
@divineofficer
Perhaps he misunderstood the message from John and Christ to put too much reverence into one person (pope, bishop) instead of Christ. Kind of like the pharisees.
maudib2142 8 months ago
@divineofficer Eucharist isn't a specifically Catholic term. It's Greek for "thanks, thanksgiving." It's used throughout the Septuagint to refer to any form of thanksgiving. The word is still used among many Christian sects that use the Septuagint or a Bible translated from it.
punchdrunkatheist 1 month ago
@maudib2142 --- Here's a quote from the document itself: "See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop..."
divineofficer 8 months ago
@maudib2142 --- "...Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrnæans, chapter 8).
In case you don't know, the Eucharist is the Catholic belief that Jesus Christ, through the priest, changes bread and wine into His very Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.
divineofficer 8 months ago
@maudib2142 --- We believe that the "accidents," or the physical characteristics of the bread and wine remain. As such, it still smells, sounds, looks, feels, and tastes like bread and wine. However, what it IS (theologically, its substance) is changed solely through the power of God. In this way, God gives us the greatest gift a human can receive: God Himself. The Eucharist is a nuptial feast, the Body of Christ becomes one with His bride, the Church, in all her members.
divineofficer 8 months ago
@maudib2142 --- We call this change of substance "transubstantiation" (a term coined at the Council of Nicaea to describe what happens). There are many, many allusions to God's ultimate plan for this beautiful gift throughout Scripture, starting very early on in the Old Testament. It is simply the fulfillment of God's plan to bring His people into the closest, most intimate, most personal relationship with Him that anyone could ever conceive. It is beautiful, it is fully Christian.
divineofficer 8 months ago
@divineofficer
By entering into a personal relationship with Christ, not the bishop or Catholic church specifically, one can experience this beautiful relationship. From what I have personally exerienced, The catholic church has attempted to put too many constraints on what to believe and what not to believe, what to follow and what not to follow. For example in Ireland, the church doesnt even pass out bibles, instead they expect the people to only receive the word of god from a pulpit.
maudib2142 8 months ago
@maudib2142 yeah, we receive from the pulpit worldwide. You know why, because if you reeeeeally stop and pay attention, thru out the whole year we read the whole bible from beginning to end. Now thats the way to preach the Word of God:) Not just picking from here and there choosing whatever man wants to preach. We preach directly from God guiding us thru the seasons and holidays etc...
eljoker75 2 weeks ago
@maudib2142 And thats the best part of being a catholic. By receiving The Eucharist, we're in a more ever so real relationship with Jesus both physically and spiritually than someone professing they are "saved".
eljoker75 2 weeks ago
@eljoker75
hmmm, thats what a lot of "religious" people say. I read the bible from cover to cover and know everything. Theres a difference between reading the bible and actually istening to God's word. Maybe you should also strengthen your knowledge outside the bible to see other people's viewpoints and then cross reference that with gods word, that might help your argument ;) Stop using traditions as justification
maudib2142 2 weeks ago
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eljoker75 2 weeks ago
@maudib2142 uhhhh, outside the bible is tradition believe it or not. Oh, believe me, i know alot too. So if you know the bible and "know" everything. Do you live every single day, at every single moment of your life striving to be like our Lord God. I do. In everything i do is all about and for God. Readinga dn knowing the bible and listening to the Word of God are always the same.
eljoker75 2 weeks ago
@maudib2142 Remember what Saint Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, in the bible, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the TRADITIONS which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us: :) (Meaning both WRITTEN (the bible) and ORAL (Tradition) - ). It says it right there proving not to only follow the bible.
eljoker75 2 weeks ago
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eljoker75 2 weeks ago
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@maudib2142 Just so you know, i go to mass (church) every single day, i pray every single day (morning, noon, evening, and night), while at work, i have my ipod with me and all i listen to this awesome speaker, Michael Voris, and maaaany other great spakers, at home, i don't watch tv at all unless its the religious channel or movie (dvd) i do lots of research, reading, spiritual reading about God and my faith etc..So you can't say i don't know anything.
eljoker75 2 weeks ago
@maudib2142 I may not know the bible like you do, but at least i'm learning it thru all this that i do. I am very, very, verrrry careful what i listen to and learn because there's sooo much misleading errors and false teachings out there especially these days. I know its The Holy Spirit guiding me because everyday that i pray, i give myself entirely to The Most Holy Trinity so that i can be totally consumed to be guided in the right direction.
eljoker75 2 weeks ago
@Mystrymeat
Catholicism is a form of religion (Man made traditions not neccesarily concurrent with Christs teaching), not a direct reflection of Christianity. This is why Christianity has had a few (many) bad labels over the course of two thousand years.
maudib2142 8 months ago
@maudib2142 WRONG. Man, you are soooooo wrong. Quit being lazy and do your research and quit relying on your own opinions.
eljoker75 2 weeks ago
@eljoker75
nice typical response, Say Im wrong and follow it up with and insult. Nice :) Take your own advice and look outside your own pride
maudib2142 2 weeks ago
@maudib2142 Believe me, i don't have any pride whatsoever. I despise that and selfishness.. Oh and thank you for the nice typical response;) It's only the truth:)
eljoker75 2 weeks ago
@Mystrymeat eh, i just dont like talking about politics as much as i like politics.
SonicobbsessedR2 1 year ago
@SonicobbsessedR2 I don't blame you. Politics have become a confusing predicament. On one hand you've got a party of people who want to help the poor but also want to form a more unitarian government, and on the other hand you've got a party that wants to allow businesses to prosper but prefer a confederal government. Both parties tug in the opposite direction and each acts childish and stubborn towards the other, even though both want to try to improve the nation. What to do, what to do?
Mystrymeat 1 year ago
@Mystrymeat thats pretty much it.
SonicobbsessedR2 1 year ago
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SonicobbsessedR2 1 year ago