I don't understand how the new talentsystem would be more "meaningful".
Well, as I said, I'm not the generic 'best spec' chooser, so for me choosing an onorthodox skill which suits my style of playing has 'meaning' already ;)
Since wow got all those wannabe progamer kiddies who cannot even play, who just wanna rely on their items, so Blizzard made that more important than skill, since then choosing fun-talents has gotten less popular, but the choice is always there, I always chose the ones I get the most fun out of, but I meet people regularily who think i just am a noob because of that.
The talent system has always been the illusion of choice. Ever since the beginning of wow there has always been the optimal spec. And on the not of them dumbing the talent trees down, weren't the talent trees dumb to begin with? I mean just because there are a lot of points does not make it automatically good. You're not a super genius or a leet skilled player just because you can put 50 points into a tree.
No more cookie cutters my ass ... They give you stupid choices, for example Rogues... If you look at line 4, they make you choose between 2 mobility and one defensive ( Prep). Thats line specifiably towards pvp, since pve does not require mobility or survivability. So now, they make you choose between shadow step and prep, which is a no brainier that shadow step is more important than prep, but now having no prep and only 1 vanish is total bullshit, special against classes that can kyte
nowadays you place ~ 34 points and then you have like 7 points to pick ONE extra stuff (example: hand of doom, lichborne, desecration / deep wounds, piercing howl, gag order / improved blink, impact, improved cone of cold / etc for other classes)
in new system you have skills you would pick anyway and then you have 6 extra choices instead of one.
Just tie in the new system with the current talent system. every 15 levels you get to make this choice in a separate window from your talents (kinda like glyphs) and they coexist with eachother.
I just turned 16 and I'm trying to become a successful pokemon trainer
I'm gonna move to the johto region in august 2012 to learn from the best. Pokemon mean a lot to me.
I've just started training. Professor Oak gave me a torchic and I used it to catch a magikarp. Would really mean a lot if you guys could support me on this.
I know it's really annoying when you see comments like this on every video, but it means a lot to me.
Maybe they should just get rid of talent trees completely. Everyone picks the same spec anyways. and I disagree with everyone saying they are dumbing the talent tree down. for eg Disc priests are all either greater healers or smiters or pvpers. So instead of all the talent choices why not just give us 3 choices
It just seems like 1984-style double-speak to me: 'We've given you less options, so now you've got more choice... revel in your freedom!'
Same with weapons. Hunters for instance, get the grand choice of rolling on the ranged weapon. But in case they'd like some variety on what they wear at their waist, they could also roll on the ranged weapon.
Easy means all the hardcore players "grow up", "quit the game" or what ever someone was arguing.. "change game"
My friend was saying, that Paragon is first becose most of the hardcore guilds have quit the game, or changed to another one. Not sure if knowledge or not.
Blizzard has unsuccessfully implemented balance on present talents so giving trees will not change this. One tree will be better. This only changes that new players will not be able to select bad talents but will still select bad trees. There will still be cookie cutter trees.
Shadowstep was nerfed in the release of the new talent system. It's just a quick way to get behind an enemy. No bonuses or anything. The issue here is that it gives us two speed abilities and preparation. If you don't take preparation, you're a bad rogue.
Can people stop fucking saying the cata system has more choice, atm you have 4-5 spare points after you spec to spend were you want and they are normaly spent in pointless places that bearly effect you, all the other points HAVE TO BE spent in 1 place to do the optimal hps/dps/tanking. Look at MoP warrior tier 1-4 all 12 talents are viable.
@Makinthebigs800 frost is not just frostbolt, theres frostfire bolt, ice lance, and deep freeze which are 3 of the main abilities in frost that i use in my rotation, but theres are many other ways to play frost, it's not as much of a noob 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,2 rotation as arcane is
wait a second..... how are we all going to be specialized like tank dps and healing because im looking at the talents and one will be healing, one will be tank, one wil be dps.
I agree with damianGray. This new talent system won't change anything, let a lone get rid of cookie cutter specs. It may seem like you're getting a lot of different choices, but there's gonna be one particular 'spec' that's most viable in an encounter or against a class in pvp.
I'm confused by these comments. I thought the definition of a cookie cutter spec is a build used for 99% of fights in either pve or pvp. Now it seems like figureing out the best combination that works with the fight and your group compisition and the strategy that your team plans on executing is considered cookie cutter.
At 14:23,, so basically.. will boil down to a lot more spec swapping per fight.. if u can swap talents like glyphs.. will be on a per fight basis. which will lead to hopefully guilds having a "solid core" group.. as long as toons know the swaps per fight..
It says at the end for those that don't see it. "i spent like an hour trying to find an actual cookie cutter before i started recording. Christmas might actually be ruined"
I think there will always be cookie cutters. Always. It will never be a completely open ended talent system without making the talent systems less and less important. I liked the way the Wrath Talent system rolled. I wish they would bring it back, so that you can pick from the trees without constraint and experiment with it.
It looks like mister Lore is payed by Blizzard to find a good reason for all the changes they make... i know the new talent system is a lie, you have no freedom of doing a custom spec and still rock.... but as Lore puts it even i believe it might work :P
I'm really excited for the Pandas and the Monk class. However, I'm dissapointed with the new talent system. I actually liked the way it was in Wrath of the Lich King. Blizzard obviously made cookie-cutter specs for a reason now they are trying to get rid of them? I have 1 level 85 that is my main character that I will continue to level up, but I also have level 80 and 70 twink alts that I like to play. I don't want the talent system to screw up my alts specs and everything.
Everyone I have talked to about the new talent basically agrees that the current talent system will be good for PvP but sucks for PvE. It especially sucks for hybrids
What worries me is about the part in the video where you talk about how good it is that there will there are better choices on a fight by fight basis. This basically means you have a 'cookie cutter build' on a fight by fight basis. To me this sounds worse.
The problem with the current 'iteration' of the talent system is there are too many points for the number of choices. Most specs pretty much take everything in their tree except one or two talents.
At around 10 minutes you said the purpose of the current talent system was to customize your character to your playstyle. WRONG! That has never been the talent systems purpose. The purpose is to develop and learn the spec.
@megalo "The reason talents are included is so that each player of the same class will be slightly different as far as how their skills work and how effective they are in certain areas" from WoWWiki :P
"There is no real choice...it's simply the illusion of choice between being good and being bad." The problem is, Blizzard will never be able to completely balance their talent system to the point where a player can pick any random selection of talents and still be as good as the next guy. THERE WILL ALWAYS BE AN OPTIMAL SPEC. The only difference with this new system is that we only get 6 talents points to play with where as before we had 41. It's dumbing down the system with no added benefit.
@damianGray In terms of simple math yes there will be an optimal spec but if you actually looked at the talents you'll notice that the optimal spec changes depending on the fight and the needs of your raid making it dynamic system in the course of a raid assuming your going to for optimal performance every fight for a certain instance/raid you'll be messing with it.
@damianGray While it is true that there will be a more optimal choice in every different encounter, the key goal of this system imo is to make it so that their isn't ONLY one viable choice. ex:Choosing Avatar over Bladestorm in Warrior T6 does not completely gimp me in an aoe fight even though it probably will lower my possible dps.Also if you think about it this system means that there will be a lot more theory crafting on a boss by boss basis leading to more depth, builds & imo more complexity
@damianGray while there will always be an optimal spec, the difference will be so small with this new system that only those who are absolutely focused on pushing out every last little bit of dps/healing/whatever will care about it, this new system allows players in more relaxed situations to pick what they WANT to pick, not what is needed to actually play
@ponder7564: While that may be true (and it's quite likely to be not given Blizzard's track record) the attitude of the player base will not change. You'll still be considered 'bad' for choosing x talent over y talent and no one will take you as a serious player until you change.
@damianGray It's not about being able to play just as well with a RANDOM selection of talents, and there is always going to be some kind of optimal spec, yes, but the way Lore was explaining it, there would be more ambiguity about what exactly constitutes the optimal spec. People would have some kind of real choice because there are points that are pretty similar in benefit though different in playstyle.
@damianGray Of cource there will be an optimal spec. THe difference is that it will be much more complex to figure out exactly what the optimal is and that the optimal will likely vary pr encounter. Call the reduction of numbers of points dumbing down if you wish, I look forward to this system.
As a dps would you rather choose a talent that let you do 100 extra damage every minute or gave you a 30% raid damage reduction every 2 minutes lasting 10 seconds? From a theorycrafting perspective the benefit of the raid damage reduction is ignored since dps is the only factor considered. However, different encounters, different phases and different roles within encounters call for different abilities. AoE c/d reduction? Get on sdds... single target boost? Get on the boss.
My only worry with the new talent system thus far is that it might get really really boring to level. First they took away our spell ranks to look forward to, they they removed talent points from every other leel so we have to level twice to get one... and now this. Leveling a mage today means you get no new spells at all from 58 to 68, that means you ONLY have the talent points to look forward to. I sincerely hope they'll look into this, and give us altoholics something to look forward to... =P
To be honest, I can't really see Blizz avoiding cookie cutter specs on the PvE side without them making speccing completely insignificant. In a PvE fight, all you're after is getting the highest amount of output, while staying alive. To make it work, using just 2 different abilities in the same spec-tier as an example, they'd have to make sure they both had an identical increase in output, while changing the way that you play. I just can't see how they could ever manage that.
Unfortunately there will always be "cookie cutters" something will always be better than something else, someone will always max/min, spreadsheet, and EP everything.
I think it was a post on tankspot discussing how people play (paraphrasing): "I prefer to play this way...."
"(in terms of Max\Min) You prefer to play wrong."
The new talent trees will wreck pvp more than most people think.
@WoWergon You should check the trees, there really is no cookie cutting. Yes some might be better for PvE or PvP, but it's not that you are way behind if you choose talent x over talent y (where y is better). It's more what you like without gimping you. They're utility talents, not really something that big.
i like there being genuine choice and variation in specs, i completely agree they're all quite prescribed, and though some specs have essentially 'spare points', to not take some abilities is plain stupid. It will be nice to have different options but I think the current model they're playing with is.. broken. It will need a LOT more work to balance between classes etc. i.e. warriors seem unrootable. how could a frost mage possibly beat them? and mages just seem screwed.
all of the talents are horrible for a rogue, they're all pvp. I DONT WANT TO FUCKING PVP! Seriously thinking about trying to find a way out of the year subscription. Fuck diablo 3 for free and all that shit. I'm done with Blizzard. DONE!
@MelodyStark Hey, rager... THEY'RE UTILITY TALENTS. Also, in-case you can't read yet...You still get your old talents, they're just built into your spec.
I feel the talent progression from Vanilla to Cata really haven't changed a lot. At least not for my part.
When I first started playing in Vanilla I chose whichever talent I felt like, because I didn't know any better. However, as I got better at the game, I got a feeling of what talent I should pick over another
"I spent like an hour trying to find a n actual cookie cutter before i started recording Christmas might actally be ruined" =) Genius LORE pure Genius ^_^ 23:48 - 23:49
Please try to understand the new talent system what blizzard is doing is through your spec like frost or fire you get all the abilities ypu NEED for that class/spec but this talent system is a way for characters to pick abilities that were not needed but are fun to use and through this system you can make your self different from other mages or any other class
Talent system in MoP: everyone is a cookie, but now you can choose what sprinkles you want on it. The cookie is still just as good as every other, but you can change the taste to your liking.
About your comments on the Preparation for Rogues: That's a very strong DPS CD for both Assassination and Sub, at least if they keep the same Find Weakness and Overkill mechanics these specs currently have.
Preparation needs to go the way of the Dodo. Shadowstep and Burst of Speed are about Mobility. Preparation is about all Rogue utility plus DPS. There's no choice, unless they nerf Prep. TBH, they just need to throw Prep away altogether and come up with another Mobility talent instead.
@RioTFF Most certainly, but what it looks like: everyone gets the things that are relevant to the class, but you can choose what abilities you want, but theyre not that important in a dps difference. Theyre more utility skills. Look at the talent trees on wowhead! There are no 'builds' just abilities you choose to your liking. Sure there are certain ones that are better than the other, but theyre not as relevant as certain talents now are.
I think blizzard has done a good job of the talents and specs being slightly different from each other. Blizzard are making more of the game PvP focused because they are wanting WoW to become an E-Sports game again. (MLG for those who don't know.)
you can not have meaningful, significant choices and not have cookiecutter builds. as soon as 1 build has a slightly higher output, that will become the standard cookiecutter. and even if the output is the same for all, then the cookiecutter will be the one with the best utility/survivability. even if only on a fight by fight basis. the only way to avoid cookiecutters is when all choices have zero impact in combat, like choosing the color of your spell effects.
@IsilionNELE i'm sure blizzard realises that, they are not dumb. i wish they'd just accept it and not try to dance around the inevitable. blizz should just accept that cookiecutter builds will never disappear. it's how human behaviour works.
i like the new talents alot actually. i think it would be a good idea to let you choose out of 3 different things for ur mastery to do also. that would add alot more variety.
@Bourkes15 yes I do like hearing about ret pallies since I play one yeah it's good to hear about them from someone who is VERY knowledgable of said class
I can't help but feel that Bliz actually enforced cookie cutter specs when they changed the talent trees last time making us choose 31 points in one tree before could put any points in another. I personally used to love hybrid spec Restokin for pvp, questing and good heroic groups. I'll not be negative about the upcoming changes but feel it may just be a variation on the same theme.
The priest ones piss me off... As a priest if any spec I see 1-2 talents in all tiers that a majority would pick or would never pick like... In the last tier Vow of Unity, ya you get healed for 20% of what they're being healed but at the same time you're also taking 50% of damage dealt to them over time for 6 seconds... At the same time there are tiers where you'll have a tough decision, but 1 is still obviously not good in PvE... I wish they made the decisions harder... Ironically.
Example: As a DK, are you gonna pick Outbreak, Corpse Explosion or Rolling Blood? Well, you're obviously going to pick outbreak, 90% of the time there won't be any corpses nearby and rolling blood is basically identical to pestilence, except you get an extra 200 or whatever damage from blood boil. 80% of the talents are as obvious.
As far as thinking about the talents, all I needed to decide on what I want from each class was looking at the talents for <5seconds. From this PoV, I'd say I preferred the older talent system since I at least really had to think about those last few points.
I think that blizz should try as hard as they can to finalize these talent system as fast as possible and release then in the pre-mists world event patch I hate the talents now and want this change but I can't wait a year.
The problem with glyphs is not there are too many but there are too few. They have like 10-12 glyphs of each type for each class. Well each class has three specs and tend to use different spellls. That means at best you will have some specs able to chose say 3 of 5 glyphs...At best.
If you're leveling up a fury warrior and you choose to take raging blow, guess what- you're bad. Raging blow is HORRIBLE while leveling up. Don't believe me? Try it out. Both heroic strike and bloodthirst do way more damage at that point in time.
As long as there are some sort of point to spend or a choice to make, there will always be an optimal spec, which means there will always be a cookie cutter spec.
I think Blizzard is revamping too much stuff. The talent system will be completely unrecognizable... Tanking, healing, guilds, glyphs, paladins, druids, warlocks etc. etc.
The Term "Removing Cookie Cutter Specs" needs to stop being thrown around... Lets ALL be real here. 2 months into this horrible xpac the best players are going to be spec'd one way and all the people who cant make their own choices or dont test anything out AKA "BADS" will just armory one of the "better" players and copy/paste that spec.... So in essence this is all bullshit. Blizzard is making this xpac [In my opinion] to target a younger audience. I mean fucking PANDAS... Really? /endrant
@Phenominal222 I'm not complaining just stating my opinion. And thanks for telling my that its happening regardless I didn't know that. I do plan on quitting... For the veggie tales video game since it's going to be for about the same age range and all.
@Jakewhite23 Obviously I'm not Lore, but I play on Illidan, horde side. There aren't that many alliance here, and we have a great raiding community - there are always pugs to join pretty much all the time. There are a lot of pvp opportunities (rbgs, arena) as well if you're so inclined. Pretty much, there's always stuff for you to do here.
/sigh another video that says frost is a ton worse than arcane... it's actually really close to arcane. The only downside is that you don't really provide anything to the raid outside of replenishment, which is given by a lot of other specs.
As a frost DK i get decent choices in my tree. I can choose between reducing the cost of my interrupt, increasing my dps via improved frost presence, or having an AE slow with chillblains. i have 4 points to put into 6 slots their, so it can be interesting. But the incoming choice between runic empowerment (which i hate) and runic corruption (which i love) is great! And then i see as a tank i'll have to choose between what are considered core tanking abilities now. So i'm not sure what to think.
I love the fact they are going in this direction.. anyone who says there is an absolute cookie cutter spec is a moron.. You are going to get to choose the "talent" that best fits how you want to play. Granted, like lore said, there may always be a certain way that will be best, but best for maybe certain fights rather than everything in the game. This is going to add another dimension to raids and instances and this really excites the hell out of me!
@TruckinPhil People don't revolve their spec around their playstyle. They determine a spec that works best for their purpose (by finding a cookie cutter or testing each option out) and then they learn to play that spec. You can't honestly say that at every single class, role and point allocation opportunity there are 3 options. If this system could actually work, there would be 3 options no matter the class and role.
@MrWadlo I think your half right. People will choose SOME of their talents based on overall play style (i.e. activated vs passive). Most talents will probably will be situational depending on the fight or role your doing. Saying there will be an absolute cookie cutter spec for the best possible output on this talent system is very 1 dimensional. Again, I love the direction they are going and REALLY look forward to how this will play out.
@TruckinPhil I really think they should explore different avenues other than "make it so simple that it can't possibly be designed wrong." They keep simplifying and homogenizing classes and it really doesn't feel like it's leading to an inevitable improvement.
@MrWadlo Going to have to partially agree... Making classes easier isnt necessarily leading to failure, it's just another way for more people to feel comfortable with the game. Blizzard has a reputation of "making games simple to learn, but difficult to master." The theorycrafters will find a way to make the best choices for everything in the game and the ones who dont care do what they want. That's what makes WoW and blizz so great, freedom. This is just more freedom.
i could be just listening to you but why do i watch anyway?
ironbear619 1 month ago
The return of super jew!
Ownagefactory154 1 month ago
path of the titans 22:00
ProJanitor 2 months ago
I miss Wrath :/
MrRoyboy76 3 months ago
I don't understand how the new talentsystem would be more "meaningful".
Well, as I said, I'm not the generic 'best spec' chooser, so for me choosing an onorthodox skill which suits my style of playing has 'meaning' already ;)
Sciesch 3 months ago
Since wow got all those wannabe progamer kiddies who cannot even play, who just wanna rely on their items, so Blizzard made that more important than skill, since then choosing fun-talents has gotten less popular, but the choice is always there, I always chose the ones I get the most fun out of, but I meet people regularily who think i just am a noob because of that.
Sciesch 3 months ago
Making everyone equal is not the sense of a roleplayinggame!
Sciesch 3 months ago
@Sciesch Isn't the equalization since Wotlk?
PachyPhazi 2 months ago
The talent system has always been the illusion of choice. Ever since the beginning of wow there has always been the optimal spec. And on the not of them dumbing the talent trees down, weren't the talent trees dumb to begin with? I mean just because there are a lot of points does not make it automatically good. You're not a super genius or a leet skilled player just because you can put 50 points into a tree.
The talent system has always been broken.
OcoryustheBold 3 months ago
@OcoryustheBold
How is the actual Telentsystem an Illusion?
You can choose vital Talents, like Stuns, Spells und Instant Abilities.
Those make a difference in pvp because they allow you to play
your character differently. You can develop your "own way of playing".
You can spend all points in one tree or spread through various trees.
The new system is really just making it easier for Blizzard to make us believe
the game is balanced. And to attract new players probably.
Sciesch 3 months ago
No more cookie cutters my ass ... They give you stupid choices, for example Rogues... If you look at line 4, they make you choose between 2 mobility and one defensive ( Prep). Thats line specifiably towards pvp, since pve does not require mobility or survivability. So now, they make you choose between shadow step and prep, which is a no brainier that shadow step is more important than prep, but now having no prep and only 1 vanish is total bullshit, special against classes that can kyte
Scuby04 3 months ago
nowadays you place ~ 34 points and then you have like 7 points to pick ONE extra stuff (example: hand of doom, lichborne, desecration / deep wounds, piercing howl, gag order / improved blink, impact, improved cone of cold / etc for other classes)
in new system you have skills you would pick anyway and then you have 6 extra choices instead of one.
lamicorp 3 months ago
Just tie in the new system with the current talent system. every 15 levels you get to make this choice in a separate window from your talents (kinda like glyphs) and they coexist with eachother.
CeatcodeDelta32 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Hey everybody
I just turned 16 and I'm trying to become a successful pokemon trainer
I'm gonna move to the johto region in august 2012 to learn from the best. Pokemon mean a lot to me.
I've just started training. Professor Oak gave me a torchic and I used it to catch a magikarp. Would really mean a lot if you guys could support me on this.
I know it's really annoying when you see comments like this on every video, but it means a lot to me.
Thumbs up so people can see please.
AlexanderHartfelt 3 months ago
Anyone catch the text at the end?
RebbelReb 3 months ago
Maybe they should just get rid of talent trees completely. Everyone picks the same spec anyways. and I disagree with everyone saying they are dumbing the talent tree down. for eg Disc priests are all either greater healers or smiters or pvpers. So instead of all the talent choices why not just give us 3 choices
TheBigNickDigger 3 months ago
It just seems like 1984-style double-speak to me: 'We've given you less options, so now you've got more choice... revel in your freedom!'
Same with weapons. Hunters for instance, get the grand choice of rolling on the ranged weapon. But in case they'd like some variety on what they wear at their waist, they could also roll on the ranged weapon.
Shinhaquro 3 months ago
Just play GW2 =/
luisjosp5 3 months ago
u look like the guy from "NEVER BACK DOWN"... the friend of the protagonist =P
luisjosp5 3 months ago
peace WoW. after 4 years. im out
xodiark10 3 months ago
weird al? or just another wow loser addict no one gives a fuck about in the real world?
wdhmjm 3 months ago
There is like 5-6 talents.
Simple means casual.
Casual means easy.
Easy means all the hardcore players "grow up", "quit the game" or what ever someone was arguing.. "change game"
My friend was saying, that Paragon is first becose most of the hardcore guilds have quit the game, or changed to another one. Not sure if knowledge or not.
LeopoldGames 3 months ago
Blizzard has unsuccessfully implemented balance on present talents so giving trees will not change this. One tree will be better. This only changes that new players will not be able to select bad talents but will still select bad trees. There will still be cookie cutter trees.
Zooni2 3 months ago
@Link1721: Yep that's exactly it. Asshat.
damianGray 3 months ago
Shadowstep was nerfed in the release of the new talent system. It's just a quick way to get behind an enemy. No bonuses or anything. The issue here is that it gives us two speed abilities and preparation. If you don't take preparation, you're a bad rogue.
Davin404 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Can people stop fucking saying the cata system has more choice, atm you have 4-5 spare points after you spec to spend were you want and they are normaly spent in pointless places that bearly effect you, all the other points HAVE TO BE spent in 1 place to do the optimal hps/dps/tanking. Look at MoP warrior tier 1-4 all 12 talents are viable.
schenkee 3 months ago
Comment removed
schenkee 3 months ago
i hope rogues still have mutilate
conkerboy123 3 months ago
@Makinthebigs800 frost is not just frostbolt, theres frostfire bolt, ice lance, and deep freeze which are 3 of the main abilities in frost that i use in my rotation, but theres are many other ways to play frost, it's not as much of a noob 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,2 rotation as arcane is
Scornfulwolf13 3 months ago
wait a second..... how are we all going to be specialized like tank dps and healing because im looking at the talents and one will be healing, one will be tank, one wil be dps.
MakintheBigs800 4 months ago
lol play frost and all you do is
1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.11.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.11.1.1.1.1.
if im wrong tell me i havent played in a bit
MakintheBigs800 4 months ago
I agree with damianGray. This new talent system won't change anything, let a lone get rid of cookie cutter specs. It may seem like you're getting a lot of different choices, but there's gonna be one particular 'spec' that's most viable in an encounter or against a class in pvp.
ImAPaladin 4 months ago
just watched some of your old vids. you've improved alot :D
ShAdOw116789 4 months ago
charge (mage blinks away) charge again it has potential
madmoddersparkler 4 months ago
@madmoddersparkler im sure mages have an option of 2 blinks
jamieovcymmer 4 months ago
1 of the record dps on baleroc is frost
kungensimon 4 months ago
there will always be cookie cutters :P there will always be a mathematically optimized set of talents for dps
TheDazarune 4 months ago
I'm confused by these comments. I thought the definition of a cookie cutter spec is a build used for 99% of fights in either pve or pvp. Now it seems like figureing out the best combination that works with the fight and your group compisition and the strategy that your team plans on executing is considered cookie cutter.
xenoblad 4 months ago 2
he knows what hes talking about but hes not that funny
MrDynasty7 4 months ago
@MrDynasty7 he is a guru, not a comedian.
Snubbeniskrubben 4 months ago
At 14:23,, so basically.. will boil down to a lot more spec swapping per fight.. if u can swap talents like glyphs.. will be on a per fight basis. which will lead to hopefully guilds having a "solid core" group.. as long as toons know the swaps per fight..
jimmyt568 4 months ago
It says at the end for those that don't see it. "i spent like an hour trying to find an actual cookie cutter before i started recording. Christmas might actually be ruined"
SuperLifestream 4 months ago
I think there will always be cookie cutters. Always. It will never be a completely open ended talent system without making the talent systems less and less important. I liked the way the Wrath Talent system rolled. I wish they would bring it back, so that you can pick from the trees without constraint and experiment with it.
Nurriek 4 months ago
paladin's have 'FIST OF JUSTICE'....really? who came up with this name and thought it was good? get fisted...
DeltaAngel101 4 months ago
i dont see how this will remove cookiecutter, if anything it made it easier to be cookiecutter.
wetnoodl 4 months ago
why i stopped playing wow.
is no-one gets to be awesome. everyone either sucks or become mediocre.
petrino 4 months ago
i have a feeling that its going to be what is better for a boss, so you have to change skills based on a boss
sinkamaru 4 months ago
It looks like mister Lore is payed by Blizzard to find a good reason for all the changes they make... i know the new talent system is a lie, you have no freedom of doing a custom spec and still rock.... but as Lore puts it even i believe it might work :P
chrissthejackal 4 months ago
I'm really excited for the Pandas and the Monk class. However, I'm dissapointed with the new talent system. I actually liked the way it was in Wrath of the Lich King. Blizzard obviously made cookie-cutter specs for a reason now they are trying to get rid of them? I have 1 level 85 that is my main character that I will continue to level up, but I also have level 80 and 70 twink alts that I like to play. I don't want the talent system to screw up my alts specs and everything.
Peregora23 4 months ago
Everyone I have talked to about the new talent basically agrees that the current talent system will be good for PvP but sucks for PvE. It especially sucks for hybrids
trowishma 4 months ago
What worries me is about the part in the video where you talk about how good it is that there will there are better choices on a fight by fight basis. This basically means you have a 'cookie cutter build' on a fight by fight basis. To me this sounds worse.
The problem with the current 'iteration' of the talent system is there are too many points for the number of choices. Most specs pretty much take everything in their tree except one or two talents.
trowishma 4 months ago
At around 10 minutes you said the purpose of the current talent system was to customize your character to your playstyle. WRONG! That has never been the talent systems purpose. The purpose is to develop and learn the spec.
megalo 4 months ago
Comment removed
protoss475 4 months ago
@megalo "The reason talents are included is so that each player of the same class will be slightly different as far as how their skills work and how effective they are in certain areas" from WoWWiki :P
sinshadow1993 4 months ago
"There is no real choice...it's simply the illusion of choice between being good and being bad." The problem is, Blizzard will never be able to completely balance their talent system to the point where a player can pick any random selection of talents and still be as good as the next guy. THERE WILL ALWAYS BE AN OPTIMAL SPEC. The only difference with this new system is that we only get 6 talents points to play with where as before we had 41. It's dumbing down the system with no added benefit.
damianGray 4 months ago 10
@damianGray In terms of simple math yes there will be an optimal spec but if you actually looked at the talents you'll notice that the optimal spec changes depending on the fight and the needs of your raid making it dynamic system in the course of a raid assuming your going to for optimal performance every fight for a certain instance/raid you'll be messing with it.
SkyrimATG 4 months ago
@damianGray While it is true that there will be a more optimal choice in every different encounter, the key goal of this system imo is to make it so that their isn't ONLY one viable choice. ex:Choosing Avatar over Bladestorm in Warrior T6 does not completely gimp me in an aoe fight even though it probably will lower my possible dps.Also if you think about it this system means that there will be a lot more theory crafting on a boss by boss basis leading to more depth, builds & imo more complexity
Speedy2600 4 months ago 37
@damianGray while there will always be an optimal spec, the difference will be so small with this new system that only those who are absolutely focused on pushing out every last little bit of dps/healing/whatever will care about it, this new system allows players in more relaxed situations to pick what they WANT to pick, not what is needed to actually play
ponder7564 4 months ago
@ponder7564: While that may be true (and it's quite likely to be not given Blizzard's track record) the attitude of the player base will not change. You'll still be considered 'bad' for choosing x talent over y talent and no one will take you as a serious player until you change.
damianGray 4 months ago
@damianGray theres a benifit, giving ppl something to talk about and making it less likely for a retard to completely screw up
anthonywhistler 4 months ago
@damianGray It's not about being able to play just as well with a RANDOM selection of talents, and there is always going to be some kind of optimal spec, yes, but the way Lore was explaining it, there would be more ambiguity about what exactly constitutes the optimal spec. People would have some kind of real choice because there are points that are pretty similar in benefit though different in playstyle.
TheHairyGeek 4 months ago
@damianGray Of cource there will be an optimal spec. THe difference is that it will be much more complex to figure out exactly what the optimal is and that the optimal will likely vary pr encounter. Call the reduction of numbers of points dumbing down if you wish, I look forward to this system.
SuperShiningSun 3 months ago 2
@SuperShiningSun Perfectly said.
KamekoBruns 3 months ago
@damianGray
As a dps would you rather choose a talent that let you do 100 extra damage every minute or gave you a 30% raid damage reduction every 2 minutes lasting 10 seconds? From a theorycrafting perspective the benefit of the raid damage reduction is ignored since dps is the only factor considered. However, different encounters, different phases and different roles within encounters call for different abilities. AoE c/d reduction? Get on sdds... single target boost? Get on the boss.
gamerunknown 3 months ago
Blizz were supposed to make real choices for talents in cata. seems they fail.
daY2Kbug 4 months ago
hahaha good pun
megalo 4 months ago
managed to do my homework while lore was talking... EPIC
pallykin333 4 months ago
To me it seems like we aren't allowed to cut our cookie, we just get to decorate it.
Conjon8811 4 months ago
My only worry with the new talent system thus far is that it might get really really boring to level. First they took away our spell ranks to look forward to, they they removed talent points from every other leel so we have to level twice to get one... and now this. Leveling a mage today means you get no new spells at all from 58 to 68, that means you ONLY have the talent points to look forward to. I sincerely hope they'll look into this, and give us altoholics something to look forward to... =P
SpamOfCan 4 months ago
You're very good at articulating your train of thought. I'm jealous.
PeppyPepito 4 months ago
How lazy this world is now cookies come pre-shaped saves me 5$...
Aphexx129 4 months ago
@hwtpants I cut my fingers with cookies. ┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)
CrzySyko 4 months ago
Yea Blizzcon is more important then your STUPID FACE!!!
Burritobandits 4 months ago
im the first person to be 3340th!... oh wait. unimportant...
olirulz747 4 months ago
3,339 th viewer! that makes me first
joehighlord 4 months ago
Since when is Christmas a death knight ?
wiserelief 4 months ago
To be honest, I can't really see Blizz avoiding cookie cutter specs on the PvE side without them making speccing completely insignificant. In a PvE fight, all you're after is getting the highest amount of output, while staying alive. To make it work, using just 2 different abilities in the same spec-tier as an example, they'd have to make sure they both had an identical increase in output, while changing the way that you play. I just can't see how they could ever manage that.
TWISM1337 4 months ago
pause at 22:37, Lore came!
ZiqpY 4 months ago
@chipsoscar No.
graymalkin1234 4 months ago
can you take 2 talents at the first row and skip taking 1 in the second row?
chipsoscar 4 months ago
@chipsoscar Nope, 1 per row.
Direksone 4 months ago
@chipsoscar No you can't , only one per row
TheYourm0m 4 months ago
@chipsoscar no
MrUnholyheals 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
NOTHING IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOUR FACE.
surfertron20000 4 months ago
Unfortunately there will always be "cookie cutters" something will always be better than something else, someone will always max/min, spreadsheet, and EP everything.
I think it was a post on tankspot discussing how people play (paraphrasing): "I prefer to play this way...."
"(in terms of Max\Min) You prefer to play wrong."
The new talent trees will wreck pvp more than most people think.
WoWergon 4 months ago
@WoWergon You should check the trees, there really is no cookie cutting. Yes some might be better for PvE or PvP, but it's not that you are way behind if you choose talent x over talent y (where y is better). It's more what you like without gimping you. They're utility talents, not really something that big.
Direksone 4 months ago
"you're all individuals"
"i'm not"
IllusionsChild 4 months ago
i like there being genuine choice and variation in specs, i completely agree they're all quite prescribed, and though some specs have essentially 'spare points', to not take some abilities is plain stupid. It will be nice to have different options but I think the current model they're playing with is.. broken. It will need a LOT more work to balance between classes etc. i.e. warriors seem unrootable. how could a frost mage possibly beat them? and mages just seem screwed.
IllusionsChild 4 months ago
this video just made me realize how easily itll be to swap specs from like a disc pve to disc pvp freeing up that 2nd completely
prepboii 4 months ago
Make the Weekly Marmot in audio only format please.
pandamanana 4 months ago
all of the talents are horrible for a rogue, they're all pvp. I DONT WANT TO FUCKING PVP! Seriously thinking about trying to find a way out of the year subscription. Fuck diablo 3 for free and all that shit. I'm done with Blizzard. DONE!
MelodyStark 4 months ago
@MelodyStark Did you miss the part where he said that none of those talents are set in stone?
lvl70shampally 4 months ago
@MelodyStark Hey, rager... THEY'RE UTILITY TALENTS. Also, in-case you can't read yet...You still get your old talents, they're just built into your spec.
CloudKoopa22 4 months ago
I feel the talent progression from Vanilla to Cata really haven't changed a lot. At least not for my part.
When I first started playing in Vanilla I chose whichever talent I felt like, because I didn't know any better. However, as I got better at the game, I got a feeling of what talent I should pick over another
Eirekk 4 months ago
"I spent like an hour trying to find a n actual cookie cutter before i started recording Christmas might actally be ruined" =) Genius LORE pure Genius ^_^ 23:48 - 23:49
Fartnose55 4 months ago
Please try to understand the new talent system what blizzard is doing is through your spec like frost or fire you get all the abilities ypu NEED for that class/spec but this talent system is a way for characters to pick abilities that were not needed but are fun to use and through this system you can make your self different from other mages or any other class
MetalNeptune1 4 months ago
this is bullshit
MelodyStark 4 months ago
so spells a mage would normally get, they dont get, and they have to pick one of certain spells... damn it blizzard... you suck
wolfdogincanada 4 months ago
Talent system in MoP: everyone is a cookie, but now you can choose what sprinkles you want on it. The cookie is still just as good as every other, but you can change the taste to your liking.
Direksone 4 months ago
hilarious intro!
032Ollie 4 months ago
LOL 1 button
falkurt99 4 months ago
About your comments on the Preparation for Rogues: That's a very strong DPS CD for both Assassination and Sub, at least if they keep the same Find Weakness and Overkill mechanics these specs currently have.
Preparation needs to go the way of the Dodo. Shadowstep and Burst of Speed are about Mobility. Preparation is about all Rogue utility plus DPS. There's no choice, unless they nerf Prep. TBH, they just need to throw Prep away altogether and come up with another Mobility talent instead.
benkalem 4 months ago
Lore You are a genius, I wish the american player-base had your reason. Awesome Vid
2narukami 4 months ago
Even with the new talents, we're always going to have certain choices that are best for PvE and some for PvP.
With two DPS options, sims and theorycrafting are always going to show which one is the better choice. Cookie-cutter builds will never go away.
RioTFF 4 months ago
@RioTFF Only way to take away cookiecutter is to remove talents and give everyone everything
redbullandwowROCK 4 months ago
@RioTFF Most certainly, but what it looks like: everyone gets the things that are relevant to the class, but you can choose what abilities you want, but theyre not that important in a dps difference. Theyre more utility skills. Look at the talent trees on wowhead! There are no 'builds' just abilities you choose to your liking. Sure there are certain ones that are better than the other, but theyre not as relevant as certain talents now are.
Direksone 4 months ago
I think blizzard has done a good job of the talents and specs being slightly different from each other. Blizzard are making more of the game PvP focused because they are wanting WoW to become an E-Sports game again. (MLG for those who don't know.)
Rydoskraze 4 months ago
About what you said about hard choises at ca 4 mins... Fire mages got to choose between Blast Wave and Dragons Breath at lvl 75... Aw maaaan..
LOLworldofwarcrafLOL 4 months ago
you can not have meaningful, significant choices and not have cookiecutter builds. as soon as 1 build has a slightly higher output, that will become the standard cookiecutter. and even if the output is the same for all, then the cookiecutter will be the one with the best utility/survivability. even if only on a fight by fight basis. the only way to avoid cookiecutters is when all choices have zero impact in combat, like choosing the color of your spell effects.
IsilionNELE 4 months ago
@IsilionNELE i'm sure blizzard realises that, they are not dumb. i wish they'd just accept it and not try to dance around the inevitable. blizz should just accept that cookiecutter builds will never disappear. it's how human behaviour works.
IsilionNELE 4 months ago
i like the new talents alot actually. i think it would be a good idea to let you choose out of 3 different things for ur mastery to do also. that would add alot more variety.
OmgItsChris77 4 months ago
Nooo my christmas!
jkazos 4 months ago
when people look at the new talent system... they forget that there is more then that spec
symillickg 4 months ago
It's2%. :)
iTek42 4 months ago
I think i would rly enjoy the new talent system.
rdsasuke1 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Blizzard take away one way of being THE VERY BEST and bring in another way to BE THE VERY BEST with Pokemon
JediwolfDestiny 4 months ago
Comment removed
JediwolfDestiny 4 months ago
Why make cookies?! Make ONE GIANT COOKIE!!!
Eat ALL the cookie!
Satelitko 4 months ago 56
Love hearing about ret paladin every episode,
Bourkes15 4 months ago
@Bourkes15 yes I do like hearing about ret pallies since I play one yeah it's good to hear about them from someone who is VERY knowledgable of said class
Luna187368 4 months ago
@Luna187368 Sure is O.o
Bourkes15 4 months ago
GOSH, LORE. Y YOR FACE SO STOOPID?
misjif2341 4 months ago
Mist of Pandaren - We give up, we're just pandering to shitty players now.
dev559 4 months ago
its still cookie cutter... just cookie cutter for diffrent situations.
example warlock tier 2, any encouter needing an AOE stun you take shadowfury...
crelleck 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
no main boss, playable plushie toys, and yet again less talent differenciation with most of em being pvp orientated...i officialy quit this game..
twattythirky 4 months ago 2
Comment removed
twattythirky 4 months ago
... so fan boys on release of cata, new talents are great.
... fan boys on MoP, new talents are great.
there are no fucking new talents.
vavan100 4 months ago
I killed Deathwing on the ptr (Raid finder)
Moltentank 4 months ago
I prefer cookie dough anyway.
GeekMaster6000 4 months ago
I can't help but feel that Bliz actually enforced cookie cutter specs when they changed the talent trees last time making us choose 31 points in one tree before could put any points in another. I personally used to love hybrid spec Restokin for pvp, questing and good heroic groups. I'll not be negative about the upcoming changes but feel it may just be a variation on the same theme.
johndavril 4 months ago
if theres no dps talents can i now raid without picking anything ..
mad3st 4 months ago
The priest ones piss me off... As a priest if any spec I see 1-2 talents in all tiers that a majority would pick or would never pick like... In the last tier Vow of Unity, ya you get healed for 20% of what they're being healed but at the same time you're also taking 50% of damage dealt to them over time for 6 seconds... At the same time there are tiers where you'll have a tough decision, but 1 is still obviously not good in PvE... I wish they made the decisions harder... Ironically.
Grievousig101 4 months ago
Example: As a DK, are you gonna pick Outbreak, Corpse Explosion or Rolling Blood? Well, you're obviously going to pick outbreak, 90% of the time there won't be any corpses nearby and rolling blood is basically identical to pestilence, except you get an extra 200 or whatever damage from blood boil. 80% of the talents are as obvious.
DIchronicaddict 4 months ago
I turned the video off at 16:55.
DIchronicaddict 4 months ago
As far as thinking about the talents, all I needed to decide on what I want from each class was looking at the talents for <5seconds. From this PoV, I'd say I preferred the older talent system since I at least really had to think about those last few points.
DIchronicaddict 4 months ago
I think that blizz should try as hard as they can to finalize these talent system as fast as possible and release then in the pre-mists world event patch I hate the talents now and want this change but I can't wait a year.
MrPootzandMeercat 4 months ago
The problem with glyphs is not there are too many but there are too few. They have like 10-12 glyphs of each type for each class. Well each class has three specs and tend to use different spellls. That means at best you will have some specs able to chose say 3 of 5 glyphs...At best.
Kevashida 4 months ago
If you're leveling up a fury warrior and you choose to take raging blow, guess what- you're bad. Raging blow is HORRIBLE while leveling up. Don't believe me? Try it out. Both heroic strike and bloodthirst do way more damage at that point in time.
DIchronicaddict 4 months ago
at the end it says " i spent like an hour trying to find an actual cookie cutter before i stated recording. Christmas might actually be ruined."
paladinfern 4 months ago
I cut cookies with my fingers. （╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
hwtpants 4 months ago 35
@hwtpants That's table fliping >.>
asskicker80 4 months ago
REAL MEN DON'T NEED COOKIE CUTTERS, THEY JUST USE THERE FACE
koatam 4 months ago
When has messing with minors every worked?
jinnchuriki 4 months ago
LORE KICKS SO MUCH FUCKING ASS!
Unchainedboar 4 months ago
As long as there are some sort of point to spend or a choice to make, there will always be an optimal spec, which means there will always be a cookie cutter spec.
Reaper89 4 months ago
I think Blizzard is revamping too much stuff. The talent system will be completely unrecognizable... Tanking, healing, guilds, glyphs, paladins, druids, warlocks etc. etc.
AvHealer 4 months ago
@AvHealer sounds refreshing
MooXtastic 4 months ago
Yes, very good. You all understand the first joke he made.
greedlusthate 4 months ago
23:48
misslehead3 4 months ago
23:49
misslehead3 4 months ago
Told'ja that the D3 talent system was coming to WoW. 6 choices.
Goishen 4 months ago
The Term "Removing Cookie Cutter Specs" needs to stop being thrown around... Lets ALL be real here. 2 months into this horrible xpac the best players are going to be spec'd one way and all the people who cant make their own choices or dont test anything out AKA "BADS" will just armory one of the "better" players and copy/paste that spec.... So in essence this is all bullshit. Blizzard is making this xpac [In my opinion] to target a younger audience. I mean fucking PANDAS... Really? /endrant
capacles 4 months ago
@capacles Stop complaining MoP is happening regardless if you want it to or not, if you don't like it don't play kthanks.
Phenominal222 4 months ago
@Phenominal222 I'm not complaining just stating my opinion. And thanks for telling my that its happening regardless I didn't know that. I do plan on quitting... For the veggie tales video game since it's going to be for about the same age range and all.
capacles 4 months ago
Mists of Pandaria? No... HEART OF THE SWARM!!!!!!!!!
Hallucinogens666 4 months ago
I'm more excited about this talent system than I am about Pandas.
hojdnatir 4 months ago
HEY LOOK IT'S THE GUY WITH THE HAIR
ryanaprice1 4 months ago
Sorry but if it ever gets to the point where I have to change my talents or glyphs based on a fight - EVERY TIME. I will officially quit lol.
Baeldorei 4 months ago
@Baeldorei Agreed that would suck major ass
minerpick 4 months ago
Lore what realm do you play on or any good horde raiding realms you recommend Balnazzar is horrible
Jakewhite23 4 months ago
Comment removed
yamzmasta 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Jakewhite23 Obviously I'm not Lore, but I play on Illidan, horde side. There aren't that many alliance here, and we have a great raiding community - there are always pugs to join pretty much all the time. There are a lot of pvp opportunities (rbgs, arena) as well if you're so inclined. Pretty much, there's always stuff for you to do here.
yamzmasta 4 months ago
/sigh another video that says frost is a ton worse than arcane... it's actually really close to arcane. The only downside is that you don't really provide anything to the raid outside of replenishment, which is given by a lot of other specs.
Jebediah2 4 months ago
@Jebediah2 Frost is good for pvp, thats it. Other then that, frost is near bottom for PvE dps specs.
Rockeyyr 4 months ago
As a frost DK i get decent choices in my tree. I can choose between reducing the cost of my interrupt, increasing my dps via improved frost presence, or having an AE slow with chillblains. i have 4 points to put into 6 slots their, so it can be interesting. But the incoming choice between runic empowerment (which i hate) and runic corruption (which i love) is great! And then i see as a tank i'll have to choose between what are considered core tanking abilities now. So i'm not sure what to think.
redballrcwy 4 months ago
I love the fact they are going in this direction.. anyone who says there is an absolute cookie cutter spec is a moron.. You are going to get to choose the "talent" that best fits how you want to play. Granted, like lore said, there may always be a certain way that will be best, but best for maybe certain fights rather than everything in the game. This is going to add another dimension to raids and instances and this really excites the hell out of me!
TruckinPhil 4 months ago
@TruckinPhil People don't revolve their spec around their playstyle. They determine a spec that works best for their purpose (by finding a cookie cutter or testing each option out) and then they learn to play that spec. You can't honestly say that at every single class, role and point allocation opportunity there are 3 options. If this system could actually work, there would be 3 options no matter the class and role.
MrWadlo 4 months ago
@MrWadlo I think your half right. People will choose SOME of their talents based on overall play style (i.e. activated vs passive). Most talents will probably will be situational depending on the fight or role your doing. Saying there will be an absolute cookie cutter spec for the best possible output on this talent system is very 1 dimensional. Again, I love the direction they are going and REALLY look forward to how this will play out.
TruckinPhil 4 months ago
@TruckinPhil I really think they should explore different avenues other than "make it so simple that it can't possibly be designed wrong." They keep simplifying and homogenizing classes and it really doesn't feel like it's leading to an inevitable improvement.
MrWadlo 4 months ago
@MrWadlo Going to have to partially agree... Making classes easier isnt necessarily leading to failure, it's just another way for more people to feel comfortable with the game. Blizzard has a reputation of "making games simple to learn, but difficult to master." The theorycrafters will find a way to make the best choices for everything in the game and the ones who dont care do what they want. That's what makes WoW and blizz so great, freedom. This is just more freedom.
TruckinPhil 4 mont