Religions, Sects and Cults

[JstNEarthling]

Cult: noun

1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.

3. the object of such devotion.

4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.

5. Sociology . a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.

all religion

[ifran44]

(First I want to apologize for possible grammatical incorretness and misspelling, this is not my first language) When you talk about religion or a cult as something that's away from reality, something is not clear to me. You see, cult is reality, which psyhoanalisys confirms. Almost every gruop has its own symbol of conformism, only thing the groups differ is structure and ritual, from biheviorist point of view.

[ifran44]

When you look at them intrinsically, they all have the same logical structure -- maffia, political organizations, earthly church, globalist movement, universities etc. The thing is, at least for me, that they exist on exchange of desire object. It is pure instinct. They all share some belief, and that is something that constitutes knowledge as such.That means that every knowledge, scientific, religious, social and individual, is relative.

[ifran44]

But, we have to distinguish that kind of beleif, and emphasize on belief. Definition of belief is (Christian) : rational expectation of future events based on Divine Revelation. This kind of faith is not product of imagination. To beleive in this, you are asked to be sceptic, definitly not a blind believer. You are asked to be sceptic toward everything that comes to you and to Holy Scriptures itself.

[ifran44]

Analyse it daily. You will see that Torah together with Gospels have unique mathematical structure, which works as a hologram. Whole Bible is something like a big information system. It is absolutely fascinating. When you stumble on contradiction, you have to work it out to open a completely new level of meaning of the piramid. Idioms that are used to gather and dissipate information are of multi-level meaning.

[ifran44]

Bible is information system, in it you will find large portion of Mazzaroth, that is, Jewish type of Astronomy. Every single word and blank space in Scriptures works as a pointer. Try to see Knuth and his point of view on this. Atheism is actually very welcome in this aproach.

[a1aztec]

gklr:

Reality as you perceive it is not as such, that's why people believe in different things.

What do you think?

[gklr]

a1aztec,

I'd say reality is what we percieve or concieve and is what is true about the world, wheras beliefs are what we think is true about the world that we cannot prove. Since we can't prove them we end up all over the place. Not sure exactly why we believe things at all, perhaps it's our curious nature and desire to know?

[Silly2smart]

A song for atheists: Pink Floyd's: Wish you were here.

To be certain when there is no evidence one way or the other is to profess ether strong faith or dysfunctional logic. Since most atheist declare no faith, the alternative becomes painfully clear.

[gklr]

Wish you were here? I thought it was about Syd Barrett, but then again I think most Floyd songs are to, or are about Barrett. I used to perform Wish You Were Here when I had the time to do such thing. Fun song!

[pdoeman]

Silly2smart

Certainty on the subject of god's existence? I havent yet heard an atheist declare that.

I leave certainty to believers.

all atheists I've discussed this with either believe there is no god or say that they simply lack a belief in god.

Do you KNOW there are no fairies? Wouldn't that be a strange thing to hear someone say?

[Silly2smart]

Perhaps you read someone else's comment. I said Theist and Atheist, having no evidence, must ether have faith or they are logically dysfunctional. The atheist that defines themselves in a negative shows their dysfunctional logic.

[gklr]

Faith is impossible without evidence of some kind. Poor evidence is still evidence. Lies are evidence in court. Total falsehoods are evidence. Proof is not evidence so perhaps you mean proof. Atheists and theists both have tons of evidence.

[Silly2smart]

If an Atheist is uncertain of Gods existance, then they are agnostic by definition.

[rattaplan]

I think every intelligent Atheist is partially Agnostic, since you can't disprove something you can't measure, but they're definitely Atheist in how they live and treat life. I consider myself Atheist since my idea of there being a self-aware, supreme being seems too absurd and unnecessary. Nature is my "God" but it's nothing more than a mechanism.

[JFZcafe]

Thanks for the video Greg. You bring a lot of clarity to the subject. I hadn't really considered how those terms differ before.

[bryantulsa]

The problem with focusing more on cults than religion, from a selfish point of view, is that religions are much larger, hold much more political power, and are much more intrusive in our lives. For most atheists, the persecutors most often encountered will be religious.

[gklr]

My point on focussing on cults is that they need to hear us more than anyone else. They are further removed from reality than anyone else. And that they are the least likely to hear us at all. Of course there is no headway to be made, they can't be accessed. Thats the problem I am trying to show.

[Elvisdogg]

Thanks for sorting out the spectrum of religious delusion. Reminds me of reading about the spectrum of deviancy in serial killers. Typically, they start with being peeping toms, but go on to rape and then killing. If left unchecked, they graduate to cannibalism at the last stage.

[gklr]

Yum. I wonder how much of their reasoning can be traced to churches feeding them the body of christ as children?

[Barklord]

I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that religion is a step away from reality when the meaning of the word is similar to Yoga or "Union". I see it as orienting and moving toward unity. If "god" = existence, then shouldn't we consider religion valuable?

[Largo64]

IF god=existence, perhaps religion has value. But lacking evidence of god and knowing that some doubt even existence I would say that that equation has some problems.

[gklr]

It violates the law of identity, where A=B if and only if all that is true for A is also true for B. Since any proposed God is not "an abstract concept" which existence is, then A=B here is false. God = existence is false, because we have a truth for A that we don't have for B.

[Barklord]

Have you studied much Judaism? The thing that leads me to believe that the god of the Bible came to mean *existence* is because of all the various names attributed to it. Such as "Eheieh Asher Eheieh" (I am that I am, or, I shall be that I shall be.) Another name that points to this is the "secret" name of god which is all of the Hebrew letters taken as a whole, which can be interpreted as "everything" which ever happened.

[gklr]

My only grasp of Judaism is the OT. Existence is a word that exists in a language and only exists after language does. It's meaning is confined to language and it's definition. Outside of that it is meaningless. It is an abstract concept, not a percieved to exist object like material things are. There is no material object called "existence", it is a product of our mind.

[Barklord]

Are you saying that the word *existence does not reference anything like, *Being? I'm talking about the fact that the names of God in Judaism to refer to real aspects of existence and existence itself. Most atheists I've talked to generally consider existence to be purely physical.

[gklr]

Existence is a concept, it is not a material object... materialism is not atheism... for a clear and utterly irrefutable end to materialism you should see my video titles "Tautologies for atheists". Materialism is silly. Ask them to show the physical object "atheism".

[Barklord]

I think I've watched it. I didn't mean to imply that you were a materialist by association. Just that existence is a word that refers to something substantial and real, physical or otherwise.

[gklr]

Yes... existence applies to what is real. I know you weren't suggesting I am a materialist, just providing reason why "atheists who are materialists" really have no idea of reality. They can't show numbers as real, meanings, words, truth, existence... all of that would confuse them to no end. And does if you see what they have to say.

[gklr]

This isn't about defining religion or sect or cult, it is about classifying them in sociological terms. A sect is basically defined as a smaller faction of a mainstream religious belief. Yet there are many such groups that are not sects or cults. So this is an attempt at finding a way to decide which is what. God = existence is provably false.

[Barklord]

You have decided to add a pejorative connotation to the words "religion", "sect" and "cult" which increases in that order. Yet, the legalistic and dogmatic forms of those religious aspects that you (I assume) dislike have been the accumulated result of the misapplication of logical consistency to inspired literature.

[gklr]

It's an accepted sociological model shown to me in college. I don't consider yanking yourself from the rest of world, hiding from it, as a perjorative connotation... it is an accurate description of what is going on in a sociological sense. They alienate reality.

[gklr]

IF God = existence, then are you suggesting that theists can honestly contend that existence created existence? God created himself? The consequences of this line of thought makes me wonder what they mean by existence.

[Barklord]

Well, existence DID "create" everything we experience in the cosmos. Existence is aware of itself through the division and limitations that we call sensory perception.

[gklr]

Existence is a word and no more. No word is self aware. How do you suppose a word has sensory perception? Existence applies to those objects we can state 1 truth about. No truths exist for God, yet they do for existence, thus they cannot be the same object.

[Barklord]

Existence is a word which references "being". It isn't a sound like a grunt.

[gklr]

Correct. Sound is material. Existence is a concept an idea... only. Like "Reality". Like "truth". Like "belief". Like numbers. Like words. None of these things are material like sound.

[Barklord]

So, are you saying that if something is a concept or an idea, then it has less reality. I am asking this because you modify the words *concept and *idea with the word "only". "Only" and idea. "Only" a concept.

[gklr]

No I don't mean that. I use "only" to say "it is not physical", it is exclusively abstract.

[Barklord]

Are you making the distinction here, between physicality and qualia? Because this is an area that I enjoy which I think is the basis of religion in the sense of it being a yoga. Becoming the qualia without division, etc.

[gklr]

No. I am making the distinction between metaphysical and physical. Mind/matter. Abstract objects/physical objects. Think Kants "a priori" truths, update to tautologous truth. A truth about an object proves that object exists, or is real. Existence is the proof of 1 truth about an object.

[gklr]

The step away from reality found in religion within this sociological framework is it's effect on the day-to-day affairs of the follower. The removal of reality occurs in exact amounts as the religion intrudes on the behaviour of the follower. Forced prayer, mass attendence, tithing, repenting, holding disdain for the secular world... the more these are done the more the religion intrudes into their lives, removing them from the rest of the world.

[Barklord]

Similarly, the adoration of syllogisms has been "an intellectual straight-jacket" for humanity.

[Barklord]

I'm not sure that anything can ever step away from reality. Whatever happens, IS reality. I understand your concerns about manipulation and coersion but religious practice isn't necessarily this way. Many religious practices are chosen freely by people all over the world every day.

[gklr]

Yes whatever happens is reality, and when people seclude and shelter themselves from what happens they remove themselves from reality. As the video says, religion is the least affected of the 3, but it is not unaffected. I cite moderates as the religious, even the fundies... because they can be accessed. There is worse out there.

[superfisto]

I never thought of it this way.

I've always discriminated between religions and cults by the number of believers.

[gklr]

I agree with the outline even if it doesn't always work. There are some groups for example that tell you who to marry but are not a cult they are a religion, and sects don't usually tell people who to marry. So it isn't perfect...

[Largo64]

There are elements of cult psychology in many sects, but one of the most identifiable characteristics of a cult is its deliberate isolation of members from the outside world, sometimes, or even especially, their own families. Cults often attempt to get members to sell everything they own and turn the proceeds over to the group.

[gklr]

I agree that there are not only cultish aspects to sects but also in religions. These lines are hard to draw when applied to every religion/sect/cult, I think they are more a rule of thumb than a hard fact. Good points on the financial spin and spurning the natural family. More can be said on those.

[42ADENT]

if the religions stopped tonight what would happen , mass murder or peace ! with no god to fear would they cope?

[dfarmer1584]

I'd love to give it a try. ;)

I have "faith" in humanity. We'd do just fine without crutches.

[gklr]

It seems in Europe where atheism is more popular than theism that they value peace and have a moral code at least as good as anyone elses. Thr trick is to show them the way out, not force them out with the same beliefs in morality that theism has. Would you agree?

[42ADENT]

odd thing is hardly ever have to stand up for atheism in u.k ! To be honest if they want a pretend god i leave them to it !I dont ram my thoughts down there neck and expect the same !

[pdoeman]

42ADENT

If you are saying that your belief in a god stops you from killng peope en masse, then I hope you never stop believing.

Personally, I dont need a supernatural deterent.

[42ADENT]

i have no gods but what im really saying is how many people are kept in check with religion !It maybe a nessersary evil ? scary thought !

[Track607]

No, keeping people in check only makes society more evil. You may be able to keep a certain person from doing a single bad thing, but you will turn the whole society into a sad, primitive and evil one, just like whats going on in the middle east with the arab country - religion makes everything worse.

We have to allow people to be happy, then they won't want to do bad things, and we can do that by taking religion out of everything.