Authorship - Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon? Pt. 1

[kylehortin]

What EVIL being would try to teach people with "Storie and parables"???

If you find one... absolutely don't believe anything he says... he's just trying to program and control you!

Think about it... that's how they program children... with stories and parables. But that's how Christ and other churches teach as well... with stories and parables. So are Mormons really so evil for teaching with parables?

[MrWSChurchill]

@kylehortin

"So are Mormons really so evil for teaching with parables?" No, their evil comes in spreading falsehoods, outrageous lies and absurd conjecture.

Most respectfully,

-WSC

K.B.O.

[neil73]

Just to raise awareness: In Chuhauhau, Mexico the mission president there is keeping the missionaries practically prisoner. They are not allowed even photo's of family members, all letters and corespondance screened, and not even allowed birthday celebrations. This is not happening in other missions. the guy needs reporting.

[CounterCultureLives]

I was kicked out of the Mormon church while I was still an investigator. Apparently, the LDS Bishop was jealous over my ability to move people to The Holy Spirit

One Sunday morning, I let out a loud, stinky fart during sacrament services. I moved everyone around me to The Holy Spirit. With TEARS in their eyes, they all began shouting out, "GOOD GOD!! JESUS CHRIST!! LORD HAVE MERCY!! They were all waving their arms about as Pentecostal Christians do!! And this was not even a Pentecostal church!!

[drewskione]

@CounterCultureLives  well played sir.

[Chinaculiacan]

I LIKE THIS VIDEO

[SammyHales]

Thank you so much for posting this video. Recently, I have become interested in the question of who wrote the Book of Mormon. It is fascinating to me to contemplate why someone who create such a work in the first place. Were they interested in duping people in order to gain wealth? Were they hoping to reform the horribly racist and backwards doctrines of Christianity, thinking that the ends justified the means (I would find this a compelling argument)? Maybe there was no plan starting as a lark?

[SammyHales]

LDS life, it does not bruise my ego to have my former faith compared to moonies. It only reaffirms my disgust for Evangelical bigots. The most horrible aspects of Christian doctrine--and it is rotton at its core--were rejected by LDS reformers. Surely, LDS faith is as absurd as ALL faiths, but it is far less horrible than the Christian belief of people being thrust, against their will, into hell. The problems of Mormonism are many, but it took Christians to show me why the idea of God is absurd.

[SammyHales]

LDS Life talks like a typical Evangelical Christian bigot. As an Ex-Mormon, my experience in the church was somewhat positive though it is too bad (actually not really...but that is a discussion for another time) there is no truth to it. Growing up in Utah, I was fairly sheltered from other Christian faiths and I was quite shocked as an adult to discover how incredibly bigoted, racist, and flat out dangerous right wing Evangelicals can be and how the faith promotes those values.

[THELDSLIFE]

Whatever makes the world feel better about finding their own life away from the LDS church. Everyone needs some comfort after they abandon it.

[ExmormonFoundation]

@THELDSLIFE

Thanks again for stopping by. How's that search for evidence to support Mormon claims coming along? Have you found that elusive Kolob/Sun connection yet? I'm sure the evidence will be found any day now, any day. Please be sure & stop by again when you can locate a Lamanite as well. No wonder the book "Where's Waldo" is so popular among Mormons, after all searching for elusive characters of fiction can be quite the challenge, but I'm sure you're up to it.

Good Luck on your search!

[SammyHales]

In current company, I see no need to limit my criticism to Mormonism, LDS Life. I offer to you the challenge to show the slightest glimmer of intelectual honesty and apply your "skepticism" more broadly, towards your own fundamentalist Christian religion.

Let's have you play "where's Waldo" with god himself. Show me a single evidence for any god, Christian or otherwise. No? Then pretty much hatred, fear, bigotry, and ignorance appear to be the main drivers of your faith.

[CounterCultureLives]

@ExmormonFoundation Refresh my memory, please!!

Was "Waldo" a fair, white, and delightsome Nephite, or an idle Lamanite, filled with mischief?? Or, was he one of those lowly cursed coloreds, with a flat nose and black skin??

[ExmormonFoundation]

@CounterCultureLives

No I believe he was white and delightsome, replete with red hat and white and red striped shirt. If he was "dark and loathsome," he would be too easy to find.

[exmoagogo]

@THELDSLIFE If you search Youtube for "I'm sorry I knocked on your door" you'll find ex-Jehovah's Witnesses apologizing for waking you up on a Saturday. Comments on those videos by believing Jehovah's Witnesses sound exactly the same as believing Mormons on ex-Mormon videos.

[THELDSLIFE]

@exmoagogo - I made no apology for knocking on anyones door. I accept full responsibility for the sharing of and the management of my gospel preaching.

[exmoagogo]

@THELDSLIFE Are you pretending not to get it to save face? If the concept eludes you I'll explain.

The Jehovah's Witnesses make the same kind of statements against their ex-members as you do against ex-Mormons. Yet, you think that the Witnesses and everyone else are wrong while at the same time sounding just like them. Even more extreme are the ex-Muslims marked for death by radical Muslims. The same psychosis is at work in all of you. Or is looking in that mirror a little too frightening?

[THELDSLIFE]

@exmoagogo - if one wants to know what kind of school Harvard is, one shouldn't ask a Harvard drop out. Quitters never really need excuses for why they quit but they always make sure they have plenty on hand to offer up. It's rare in any break up when ANY of the parties involved can 100% speak nothing but good about the other regardless of how many one asks. I really have no idea what you are talking about looking into a mirror. I love the reflection that I see. I know who I am.

[exmoagogo]

@THELDSLIFE Reflect on this, I know it bruises your Mormon ego to be thrown on the same pile as Moonies, Jehovah's Witnesses and Scientologists. They don't like being compared to you either. Are you so bewitched by your own self inflated image that you fail to see the same in your religious competitors? Or would admitting that they suffer from delusion only open you up to the same scrutiny? Now, go back to staring at yourself.

[THELDSLIFE]

@exmoagogo - May I borrow your hair brush?

[exmoagogo]

@THELDSLIFE So if someone quits the Methodist church and joins the Mormon church that would be OK in your book. If someone quits the Mormon church, well, they are just quitters and excuse makers. Yet, you want the Methodist or Catholic to be a quitter in favor of Mormonism. Mormonism then is full of quitters and excuse makers from other faiths. Why would you want such weak people?

[THELDSLIFE]

@exmoagogo - if someone quits the Methodist church and heads up a personal mission to destroy it, then in no wise is that okay. Enduring to the end is part of the territory regarding anything. Some people look for greener pastures... and our pasture is pretty green. All are welcome!

[ExmormonFoundation]

Hmm, by that whiz bang logic you've got there, the adherents of the Moonies, Scientologists, Heavens Gate, Peoples Temple and the Branch Davidians should all just move along after their departure and not warn others about the absurd nonsense of their claims, beliefs and practices? You actually believe that you have magic, the correct magic. Your magic is the right magic. Your chants are the correct chants. Your totems are the correct totems. You have the only true and real magic right?

[exmoagogo]

@THELDSLIFE Your missionary program has a personal mission to destroy all other churches by virtue of the fact that you attempt to siphon away as many of their members as you can. You would take them all if you could. There is no difference between you and an apostate member of another faith. But since you are a member of The One True Church you give yourself a pass and destroying other faiths is OK.

[THELDSLIFE]

@exmoagogo -

"We do not ask any people to throw away any good they've got. We only ask them to come and get more." Joseph Smith

[exmoagogo]

@THELDSLIFE Baloney. You ask them to leave their church behind because they don't have enough of your "good". Don't flatter yourself. When your missionaries attempt to lure people away it is no different than ex-members attempting to do the same. Joe Smith said God told him all of the other churches are wrong. Like Muhammad, Joe Smith wanted to dominate the earth and have all bow to his church. Your sugar coating is too thin.

[IExposeMormonism]

@THELDSLIFE Must be what the music is there for. How are you at finding your way out of the Labyrinth of the Mormon Minotaur? IF you use the New Testament a Primary and Ultimate authority you will find the way out of the nausea of D&C, the presence of an absence in the BofM and the old world ritualism in the Old Testament. ALL of which are held first in Mormonism and the NT forced to conform to that. Christianity isn't Jewish. Christianity isn't about becoming better Jews. Mormonism is.

[KenM66]

@THELDSLIFE I guess it is the same as Mormons who have to go to testimony Sunday once every 30 days for comfort that this is the one true church since they feel it in their warm fuzzy hearts.

[THELDSLIFE]

@KenM66 -

And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

And they said one to another, Did not OUR HEART BURN WITHIN US, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,

Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.

Luke 24: 31-34

It's in the Bible...

[THELDSLIFE]

@bill4long - must not have been too confident in your statement to leave it published, I suppose. One day the world WILL know that the authors of this fine book was and always were... Nephi, Jacob, Alma, Mormon, Moroni and others but for some it will be too late to explain why they neglected it for those MANY MANY years wasted based on hearsay, speculation, inconclusive evidence. TRUST GOD! 1 John 5:9

[bill4long]

@THELDSLIFE I removed it because there's no point in arguing with a blind cultist - period

[THELDSLIFE]

@bill4long - one man's blind cultist is another mans firm and steadfast focus towards his desire to become like Jesus Christ desiring NO OTHER THING and cultivate that relationship.

[MrWSChurchill]

@THELDSLIFE

Sir, are you not aware that your very DNA testifies to their not being an Adam and Eve? and as a consequence there was not a fall, which indicates that there would be no need for the Christian atonement and a mythical figure known as Jesus Christ. Mormonism is a fraudulent enterprise built on a foundation of deception, nonsense and myth, and that's just Christianity.

Most respectfully,

-WSC

K.B.O.

[MrWSChurchill]

Sir, are you not aware that your very DNA testifies to their not being an Adam & Eve? And as a consequence there was not a fall which indicates that there would be no need for the Christian atonement & a mythical party trick magician known as Jesus Christ. Mormonism is a fraudulent enterprise built on a foundation of deception, nonsense & myth, & that's just Christianity. Mormonism adds further nonsense with Kolob, Lamanites & peepstones. Surely you jest.

Most respectfully,

-WSC

K.B.O.

[THELDSLIFE]

@MrWSChurchill - Do you have absolute knowledge and how did you become so enlightened?

[MrWSChurchill]

You too can become so "enlightened" through a clear understanding that you are a part of a long tapestry of humanity which has trod this planet for much longer than the 7,000 year cycle your D&C 77 says we have. Your very DNA testifies to the reality of evolution & your part of it. There was no Adam & Eve, & we can know this conclusively because we have the scientific evidence which clearly shows such to be our shared reality. Life is too short for your myths.

Most respectfully,

-WSC

K.B.O.

[Dafrogie]

Haha good one, hey ill plant another list of evidence for you tomorow, so you can cover your eyes and pretend they dont exsist : )

[ExmormonFoundation]

@Dafrogie

You just don't get it. You have not presented ANY evidence whatsoever. You have presented Mormon apologetics, not evidence! Perhaps you should take a perusal of what non-biased, non-Mormon scientists have to say regarding the claims of Mormonism. Why not start with the global flood. If such was real, you should be able to find evidence everywhere correct? (It was supposedly a global event) Start simple and see what you can find out. Even the folks at BYU know the flood is myth.

[Dafrogie]

@ExmormonFoundation Yep i understand that one, but to sit there and claim there is no Book of Mormon evidence, tells me you are not only dishonest but there must be something personal you have against the LDS Church, dude Ive had many bad experiences with LDS members but I will never blame it on the Church, i have had so many spiritual experiences that are out of this world and science nor pride will rob me of these things!! LDS Forever :)

[ExmormonFoundation]

Again, you have not presented any evidence whatsoever. Please return when you have something to present. Perhaps an actual Lamanite or verifiable segment of the earth's strata confirming the reality of the global flood?

In the meantime, just keep telling yourself that it's all true. "science nor pride will rob me of these things!!" Of course, you're open minded and seeking truth & reality. Only fools require evidence right?

MormonThink d o t c o m may prove helpful in your studies.

[Dafrogie]

@ExmormonFoundation Again you have not refuted anything I have said, sorry but your personal opinion does'nt count, I have produced evidence for all your questions save one or two which seems like has put you in a state of denial are you shocked at the amount of evidence unfolding before you? because I have more to show you and i dont want to scare you off!

[ExmormonFoundation]

When you provide EVIDENCE then I will discuss what you have provided. You have provided APOLOGETICS filled with inference and conjecture, not evidence. For example, you state that one should just look at the "Discovery Channel" to find the evidence for the global flood. Yes, this is sound evidence indeed, how could I have missed that? Ask yourself why your Mormon "evidences" are simply ignored by the world of science. Is it a conspiracy? Is is Satan or are Mormon claims simply dumb & unfounded?

[Dafrogie]

@ExmormonFoundation haha yea I was kinda smiling when I wrote about the flood on the discovery channel :) well Im a little busy right now I have another list I will post soon , I hope you will be a bit more honest about these evidences, Cheers

[ExmormonFoundation]

@Dafrogie

Honest? Again, all you have done is copy & paste what FAIR/FARMS or some other Mormon apo-lie-jest has posted online. You have not even taken the time to see if what they are posting is real in the first place. Your mind is off, so you just assume that what they have posted is correct. Why don't you investigate your "evidence" on the bones for pre-Columbian horses. Why does the rest of the scientific community not support said "evidence?" You still have yet to provide ANY evidence.

[Dafrogie]

You are good at taking things out of context I'll give you that much and I bet you guys have a good laugh at jona living in a whale for a few days as well, How does it feel to be a lier and a deceiver for the glory of the world, live up your fame while it last's!! :)

[ExmormonFoundation]

@Dafrogie

You're right, we do laugh at the Jona story as well as the global flood, Adam & Eve and Kolob as the light source for the sun just to list a few. Not to mention the mere notion of Kolob. Hilarious! But then one must keep up a good sense of humor as an exmormon, once one realizes just what a joke it all really is.

All the best in your continued studies. Please visit the Mormon run site MormonThink d o t c o m. Mormonism is not what it claims to be.

Good luck!

[Dafrogie]

@ExmormonFoundation Yea I supose it is kinda funny, even so, ifs, maybes, could of beens and exaggerated facts does'nt make for a solid theory, for one the spolding theory has been proven silly by critics themselves and dont you think Rigdon would have admitted writting the BofM after he left the church, There is so much evidence confIrming the BofM, especially today more and more evidence have been and are being found and this is just the begining.

Come aboad my friend , dont miss the boat!

[ExmormonFoundation]

@Dafrogie

Umm, you have made some bold claims there that require evidence. Perhaps you should watch the entire presentation regarding the evidence, Rigdon etc. Next, you claim that there is "so much evidence confirming the BoM" unfortunately for you and Mormonism this is simply not true. When making claims, you need to be able to support them, otherwise you're claims are no different from every other crackpot idea out there. Remember, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

[Dafrogie]

@ExmormonFoundation Haha likewise dude! Since you're on youtube you dont have to look far to find the evidence Im talking about but I do understand it must be hard listening to our side of the story because it is pretty difficult to refute!

[ExmormonFoundation]

@Dafrogie

Uh, you're not very good at this are you? Do you know what evidence means? Do you know that as a Mormon making claims you must be able to support those claims with actual evidence? You can't just claim something as real without the evidence to support such. Let's start with a few claims from your BoM that is so "difficult to refute" shall we?

If your claims are real, please provide scientifically sourced documentation for the following:

[ExmormonFoundation]

*Lamanites, even just one Lamanite

*Semitic DNA in pre-Columbian Western Hemisphere

*If the BoM happened in Mesoamerica, why the inspired Indian Placement program in North America?

*Nephite artifact in Western Hemisphere

*Any Book of Mormon city

*Pollen grains of wheat, flax, figs in Western Hemisphere during BofM times

*Slag heaps of pre-Columbian steel making

*Silk in pre-Columbian Western Hemisphere

[ExmormonFoundation]

*Linguistic evidence of Hebrew or Reformed Egyptian or even Egyptian in the Western Hemisphere

*Horse or elephant fossil during BoM times

*Evidence of Nephite/Lamanite civilizations numbering in the millions

*Egyptologists on the veracity of the Book of Abraham translation

*Evidence for the global Noachian flood, tower of Babel

Perhaps all scientists & the scientific community are in a conspiracy to persecute the “Only True Church," or perhaps the evidence does indeed "easily refute" the BoM.

[Dafrogie]

@ExmormonFoundation - Im not a scientist or a Scolar of any sort but you and I both know that there is much more to be discovered yet if they hav'nt been already ,like the fact that horse bones have been found after claims there were no horses between 10,000 bc and the spanish conquest ( Lol Tun Caves, Upper west of America) - No metal has been found but linguistic evidence suggest's there was - and you only have to watch the discovery channel to find globel flood evidence - also a ....CONT

[ExmormonFoundation]

@Dafrogie

Utter nonsense. Perhaps you should pass those "evidences" of yours along to your "prophets," "seers" & "revelators" or better yet, why don't you ask them where Zarahemla is or even where one may find a Lamanite. Unfortunately for you and Mormonism, Mormon claims continue to be debunked over & over again, especially as MORE information comes to light about said claims. The global flood claim is nonsense. Next you'll be claiming that the sun really gets its light from Kolob.

[Dafrogie]

@ExmormonFoundation CONT ... a discovery was made not long ago of a creation story found in the new world simular to that of the Bible, coincidence! maybe - - also pre columbian BARLEY was uncovered in a arcealogical dig in Arizona, Illonois and in Oklahoma dating around 300BC to 1000AD (FACT), FYI how many acient plants have been found, hardly any if none at all! - - also the first fascimile in the Book of Abraham was mocked by critics, claiming it was'nt Abraham and no sign of...CONT

[ExmormonFoundation]

Do you have anything else from FAIR you wish to cut & paste? Or are you going to provide actual evidence from the scientific community in these disciplines? Why not throw Big Foot and a disappearing city into the mix while your at it. Smith taught that the Gulf of Mexico is the former location for the 'City of Enoch' as well. I wonder how those "ignorant" scientists missed that one? Pity the scientific community does not have the 'spirit' to guide them, if only they had you.

[Dafrogie]

@ExmormonFoundation CONT ... of Abraham would be found in any egyptian documents, yet a few years ago a lion couch scene was found and beneath it the name ABRAHAM - - Im not sure if any reformed egyptian has been found but Hieroglyphics, Hieratic, Demotic and Coptic shows reform in egyption langage, there was found also a document which no one could read until someone realized it was a fragment of one of the psalms in the bible, writen in egyptian caractors " demotic to ....CONT - also

[ExmormonFoundation]

@Dafrogie

Name ONE ancient document that supports the BoA. You can't!

Nibley notwithstanding there is NO outside support for the BoA, it doesn't exist.

The truth is, numerous independent, highly qualified experts on Egyptology have examined Smith's 'translation' of the BoA and have universally and without exception, declared it a FRAUD! Remember - Egyptian is a language that today is readily and easily read.

[ExmormonFoundation]

The facsimiles in the BoA have NOTHING to do with Abraham. They are common funerary documents. I invite you to open the BoA to the facsimiles and carefully study them and then realize that EVERY SINGLE ONE of Smith's 'translations' are WRONG! He couldn't get a single one right! What does that say about Smith as a translator of ancient documents?

[ExmormonFoundation]

My Suggestion: expand your horizons beyond the tiny mirage of FARMS/FAIR. They have zero objectivity, their collective bias is over the wall, and they lack fundamental accountability for their wholesale misrepresentations.

Or you can just keep telling yourself over and over again that the "church is true" until your doubts go away and you're again safely ensconced in self-imposed ignorance.

[Dafrogie]

@ExmormonFoundation CONT ... be precise but still in the original language or aramaic, a writing from the ancient Jews of a sciptual biblical text in the script of the egyptians which could have been the case of the Book of Mormon, again just something to think about - - you aksed for evidence of egyptian in the Western Hemisphere, well the only thing that comes to mind is the PYRAMIDS :) .... CONT

[ExmormonFoundation]

"which could have been the case of the Book of Mormon" Ah, the old plausibility ploy of Mormon apologetics. Yes, you're right, it could be, but then it could also have been written in Elfish or perhaps Klingon as well. It "could be" that the language of the Egyptians originated with the Klingons. Hey, who are you to doubt, it "could be." I have to pause now amidst this flood of plausibility. For all I know, the flood "could be" real & Kolob "could be" the actual source of light for the sun.

[Dafrogie]

@ExmormonFoundation - CONT.... despite all this evidence and much more the SURE evidence I was refering to is SPIRITUAL- - Jesus said " give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and unto God what is God's "

Sitting in Ceasar's court demanding a sign is'nt very wise and is sadly a road to nowhere ! Spiritual truth does'nt require phisical evidence

As I said before there is much evidence, assurance that the BofM is true - Moroni 10:3-5, hopefully this evidence is not beyond your reach. Peace

[ExmormonFoundation]

@Dafrogie

Thank you for that empty, apologetic, non-evidenced reply for BoM claims. And true to defender of nonsense form, when you have nothing really to support your claims, retreat to the world of the metaphysical, while citing ancient texts of dubious origin to support your case. It would seem that circular logic is indeed alive and well after all.

Just remember, the church is true, right? I'm sure that evidence will be forth coming any day now. All the best in your continued studies!

[Dafrogie]

@ExmormonFoundation Sorry mate that evidence is already here but sadly you've missed it.

[exmoagogo]

@Dafrogie

Give us the Google Earth co-ordinates of Zarahemla and I'll be impressed.

[blugularis]

@LDS4Life71 now that is the most irrational comment I have heard, the BOM is a farce, and PT Barnum said it, "sucker born every minute!" LOL

[blugularis]

@LDS4Life71 "because it's WTF!?"

[ExmormonFoundation]

@LDS4Life71

So by your logic ex-Muslims discussing the failings and absurdities of Islam are doing so because Islam is the true faith? Or what about the ex-Jehovah's Witness, they too must be confirming the validity of their movement, or the Scientologist, Moonie, Catholic, Baptist. and on and on. Yes, very sound logic indeed.

Please research. It is not what it claims to be.

[Hyrumfyrum]

@ExmormonFoundation

Keep up the good work I left this year after 30 years. I feel so sorry for those still in the morg. The truth shall prevail. Slowly the information is reaching the people they cannot cover up this con forever.

[ExmormonFoundation]

@LDS4Life71

Alrighty then. Thanks for stopping by!

[ExmormonFoundation]

@LDS4Life71

Yes, we agree. What a terrible, nonsensical personal code of ethics dear gummybrain employs in his life. He should recognize that such is an utter waste and failure without the "blessings" of giving his mind and will over to the marvelous and "inspired" leaders of Mormon Inc. Poor, poor gummybrain. indeed! How can he live a life worth living without Mormon Inc.? How??? Angels weep at the thought.

[blugularis]

@ExmormonFoundation ROFLMAO!

[littlebigman52]

What's the music at the beginning?

I love the quote from Nietzsche, and only wish you had included another: "Faith means not wanting to know what is true."

[ExmormonFoundation]

@littlebigman52

The music is by Corelli, Concerto Grosso Opus 6 in G Minor. It is lovely piece.

Yes, Nietzsche is full of wonderful wisdom and insight. I'm a big fan.

All the best! -EMF

[burtonair1986]

I like this Channel... when are you going to make the ExCatholicFoundation and ExLutheranFoundation. Maybe the ExBaptistFoundation. Oh I know... the ExChristianFoundation. Or do you only have one Church that you target? You need to step it up and hold your meetings at a Marriott hotel. Oh wait... maybe not. HAHA

[DrTerminus]

So what do former super Mormons Clark, Graff, Spjut, and the others have in common? They stopped believing. They allowed Satan, the Father of lies to corrode their testimonies of Christ. For Clark especially, it is particularly tragic that someone so sharp could be so reckless as to insidious satanic designs. Mormonism, like no other, reveals the true nature of the struggle between good vs. evil, God vs. Satan, light vs. darkness. Come back folks! Repent while there's time!

[MrWSChurchill]

@DrTerminus

Alright, I'm sure everyone would love to rejoin the Mormon bandwagon just as long as a few things can be cleared up first. Could you please show us a Lamanite? Could you please direct us to the overwhelming physical evidence which shows the claims of the Book of Mormon to be real and existing in this universe? Also, while you're at it, please direct us to the prophecies of your prophet Smith which actually came true. That's a start, we're waiting anxiously.

[MrWSChurchill]

@DrTerminus

One more thing oh Dr. What exactly were these "insidious satanic designs" which lead people out of Mormonism? That's quite a bold claim you've made there, do you have any evidence to support such, or is this just another unfounded absurdity from the mind of the believer? Also, which Christ? Apparently there were many at the time as there are now, so what deity is in question? Mithras? Dionysus? Osiris? Jeshua? Please forgive my confusion, but there are so many "Christs."

[DrTerminus]

@MrWSChurchill Dear Mr. Churchill. Forgive my moniker. I am not a doctor no more than you are Winston Churchill. Wow man, so many questions. I would love to start a discussion. It all depends on the level of maturity you want to maintain as we do so. Would you like to jump over to your channel or mine and have a methodical, meaningful discussion? How about email? The last fellow I tried this with, from the UK also, blocked me and did not want to engage. It's up to you.

[MrWSChurchill]

Why should the discussion move? I have no need to be uncivil, and I believe a discourse on this page would prove fruitful to those who view this channel in their quest for truth. However, that being said, as a believer one can assume that you are working from an already concluded position vs. one which seeks out the evidence and then makes a conclusion. Your testimony is your conclusion, therefore everything else must be as claimed. I submit that you must follow the evidence, not feelings.

[MrWSChurchill]

For example, do you believe that the Loch Ness Monster is real without the evidence to support such or would you require evidence to believe that dear "Nessie" is real? Mormonism does the very same thing, in that it makes very specific claims as to how the world and universe operate, yet they provide nothing to substantiate those claims. Surely you would require evidence for Nessie before believing in such, yet you don't require such for the claims of Mormonism. Most interesting.

[DrTerminus]

@MrWSChurchill Very well. In order to do so, I request that you state what religious beliefs you have. What beliefs do you have that would convince me to abandon Mormonism and come join with you? By what means did these beliefs come about? What standard of truth did you use to arrive at those conclusions? You assert that one must follow "evidence" and not feelings. Explain. Again, how will your arguments stand on their own merit? My beliefs are as follows... next post.

[MrWSChurchill]

No, I am not here to convince you to change your beliefs. One can believe whatever one wants, but one cannot make claims that something is true or real without the evidence to support such. For example, if I claimed I could fly without the benefit of a machine, you would require that I show you by actually flying. Actual, verifiable, evidence. Voices in your head or feelings are not evidence. It's quite simple really. No theatrics needed. Just verifiable facts & evidence.

[MrWSChurchill]

If any claims from your scriptures or prophets are not true, then that casts doubt upon their claims as connections with the divine. One would think that the almighty would be consistent in its claims of reality. Take the Mormon claim that the global deluge was a real event. The evidence shows that this was not a real event, quite impossible actually. If Mormon claims are real, then the evidence should support those claims. It's that simple. No magic required.

[DrTerminus]

@MrWSChurchill Pretty evasive there fella. I'm still waiting Winston. You did not answer my questions. Do you want a conversation or not?

[MrWSChurchill]

@DrTerminus

Oh I see, I answered my requirements for evidence, yet I did not state my religious position. Well, I feel such is not germane to the claims of Mormonism, as you will no doubt try to change the discourse toward me, instead of supporting Mormon claims. This is an old trick, and I won't play that. For all I know you believe in unicorns and talking snakes, but such ultimately is irrelevant when discussing the truth claims of Mormonism. Evidence is what is required here.

[DrTerminus]

@MrWSChurchill -- Well, it's just as I thought. Your "I won't play" is just the cowardly response I was expecting. No beliefs to defend. No standards to uphold. Floating like a jellyfish going where the current takes you. I challenge you a third time: show me some belief system, some comprehensive, motivational, uplifting, inspirational cause which you have embraced that I can abandon Mormonism and come join you. I know it's frustrating for you because you simply can't do it!!

[MrWSChurchill]

And there it is. The old ploy of turning the discussion toward me instead of defending the claims of Mormonism. You all do this because you have nothing with which to support your claims save for your "testimony" which is the human universal. I am not here to convert you to anything. I am simply requesting that you & every Mormon support their claims otherwise no one must believe or accept anything you have to offer. You're no different than the Scientologist defending the reality of Lord Xenu.

[MrWSChurchill]

You are defending a belief system, a belief system which is no different than all the others based on unfounded claims. You have underwear which protects you from evil, the Catholics wear the cross to do the same. It's the same game, just different underwear. You dear Mormon must support your claims with evidence. Yet you cannot because even you realize the absurdity of many Mormon claims, yet you ignore this and call it faith. Remember, no amount of belief makes something a fact.

[MrWSChurchill]

Apparently you are so used to being told what to believe, that you require a perfect stranger to do the same. Well, I guess you could always leave Mormonism and join the circus? It brings happiness to millions and you get to have fun wearing the costume? (unlike the temple) Or you could join the Peacecorps and help others not as fortunate as your white, middle-class American self. Or you could open a soup kitchen with your saved tithing and really help the less fortunate. There you go. Better?

[gummybrain]

@MrWSChurchill I'll give it a shot. Here's my nontheistic moral code: 1) Do no harm to others. 2) Ease suffering when you can. 3) Embrace your innate empathy for other living creatures. 4) Use reason to solve problems. 5) Defend truth and seek to dismantle lies and delusions. 6) Resist tyranny and seek to make others more free.

[MrWSChurchill]

@gummybrain

Now there's a moral code I can and do support!

Most respectfully, WSC

K.B.O.

[DrTerminus]

@MrWSChurchill -- I have studied Mormonism for over 50 years. I have studied, analyzed, prayed, experienced pretty much everything it has to offer. I live in SLC, Utah, the heart of Mormondom. My father is a long-time Church historian and I've studied with him anti-, ex-, former Mormon writings. He is one of the foremost scholars on the life of Joseph Smith - has researched and read extensively. But the key is: the Holy Ghost!

[MrWSChurchill]

@DrTerminus

Then you have resorted to magic. You are not basing your claims on any evidence whatsoever, instead you ignore the evidence which shows the Mormon claims to be absurd and in error so that you can continue to believe. I am making no claims here, Mormonism is. Remember oh scholarly one, the onus is always on the claimant to support their claims with evidence. Again, it's very simple. If Mormonism is real, then the evidence for those claims will be everywhere, no magic required.

[MrWSChurchill]

Again, let's take another example. In all those many years of study, did you not once pause and question the reality of the claims that dark skin is a curse from a wrathful deity? Of course not. You accepted that claim, despite the overwhelming evidence which shows dark skin as the original skin color and that over time a variety of skin colors developed as adaptations to environments. For you, this evidence is simply wrong. Africans & Ameri-indians are descended from cursed peoples. Absurd.

[DrTerminus]

@MrWSChurchill  One of the very first things I'll be asking you Winston is if you have ever read the Book of Mormon...and the Bible for that matter. Which Christ? Surely you must be kidding or you're just a child playing on the computer. How serious a discussion would you like?

[MrWSChurchill]

Both, & sold them door to door as a Mormon missionary, so yes, I am well versed in your religious vernacular. Again which Christ? The Christians submit that their Christ is different than yours, the Muslim's state that the Christ of their Koran is different as well, as do the Greek Orthodox from the Catholics, the Baptists from the Presbyterians etc. There are many Christs in Christianity and Christs which preceded your version of Christ. The co-opting of former myths is religion's specialty.

[DrTerminus]

Mormon 9:20 ...the reason why he [God] ceaseth to do miracles among the children of men is because that they dwindle in unbelief, and depart from the right way, and know not the God in whom they should trust.

Mormon 9:21 Behold, I say unto you that whoso believeth in Christ, doubting nothing, whatsoever he shall ask the Father in the name of Christ it shall be granted him; and this promise is unto all, even unto the ends of the earth.

I testify these words are true.

[MrWSChurchill]

So by your reasoning, all one has to do is believe and then one will experience the miracle, correct? Alright, why won't your god re-grow the missing limb of the true believer? They pray, they give, they hope, they exercise faith, and yet no limb regenerates. Perhaps they are not believers afterall, or not believing enough? Or perhaps they are praying wrong or to the wrong god? Maybe they should throw a few coins in the wishing pond as well just for good measure? Just believe & it will work!

[DrTerminus]

@MrWSChurchill Good question young man. The other part of faith and belief is humility: submitting your will to your Heavenly Father -- that He knows what is best for His children. Following His commandments, believing in Him and His Son, Jesus Christ comprises the Plan of Happiness, not the temporary, ersatz "happiness" the world offers.

I invite you to come, learn. Read the Bible. The Book of Mormon. Pray to God with a sincere heart to know the truths therein. He loves you.

[MrWSChurchill]

A non answer from the believer. All one must be is humble and believing and then your god will grow back the amputee's limb, is that correct? It's so simple! Why didn't we think of this earlier? This will transform the world of medicine! As for your scriptures and the "truths" contained therein, would you please direct me to the evidence for the Global Flood? The Exodus perhaps? Or what about Kolob as the light source for the Sun? These many "truths" surely have evidence to support them right?

[DrTerminus]

If only I could see the gold plates and see the origins of the Book of Mormon, then I would believe. If only I could handle original Biblical manuscripts, then I would believe. Better yet, if only I could have lived when Jesus Christ lived and watch Him in action -- preaching, healing, performing miracles...then I would believe.

Seeing is believing, right? Wrong! Nephi, Laman, and Lemuel all had spiritual manifestations. One believed; two did not.

[MrWSChurchill]

Sir, claiming as evidence a story from one fiction as a means of support for another fictional story does not by default support your position. For example, if only Pinocchio had listened to the sage advice of the talking cricket, (a miracle by any standard, not to mention he was a conscious puppet) he would have spared himself the terrible deformities and sadness which later befell him, much like the Gingerbread man who met his demise due to pride & an inability to run faster than his enemy.

[claynsen]

This video makes me sad for you.

[ExmormonFoundation]

Thanks for stopping by. You pity has been duly noted.

We highly recommend you watch the entire presentation and then follow it up with a presentation from last year titled "Lying for the Lord" which can be found in the play-list section. Both excellent presentations guaranteed to leave your mind a little more expanded than it was before.

Please visit another excellent site run by Mormons to aid you in your studies: MormonThink d o t c o m.

All the best in your continued studies.

[z1freerider]

Didn't Criddle come out with a paper about a year ago on this subject? What sort of new information did he find and include in this presentation?

[ExmormonFoundation]

Yes, the paper was presented earlier, this presentation reflects and expounds upon those findings. The other findings which came in just prior to the presentation were about a similar word print study on the Doctrine & Covenants. Watch the complete presentation as Craig does show these additional findings toward the end of this presentation.

[marcopolo8765]

to bad no one does anything with there life after they leave the lds church. It would be great to see someone successful thats an anti mormon. Instead of all theses famous sucessful mormons.

[SkeptikToo]

What are YOUR accomplishments besides attacking? We work hard to save others from The Fraud. There are many, many successful and famous Pro-Truth advocates, if you care to look. Your "famous sucessful [sic] mormons" are Anti-Reason, delusional, and defraud the misinformed.

"to [sic] bad" you don't do anything with your life beyond perpetuating the scam. Your Anti-Truth existence is unwholesome, corrupting, and destructive, but you'll never get a clue about reality.

Now back to your Fantasyland.

[marcopolo8765]

Well lets see. I give my time, trade, and finances to those in need. I have donated much of my time to things such as flood relief. Fixed many houses where the living conditions were unsafe and unsanitary. Done just about everything from save a families home from condemning to picking up trash on the hwy. And the list would go on forever but there not enough room. So if faith hope and charity is fraudulent. I guess in your world it is? But you should really give it a try. Beats the jealous life

[ExmormonFoundation]

LOL! "The Jealous life" LOL!! Of what? magical underwear, spending countless hours in absurd meetings? Forking over our money to a multi-billion dollar cult so they can build malls, purchase hunting lodges and hotels? Denying reality and the use of critical thinking? etc. Yes, we are quite jealous. Thanks for setting us straight, but you can have it all to yourself, we've had our fill of that fun.

p.s. Way to show your alms before men. ;) Did you wear the "I'm a Mormon T-Shit too?"

[marcopolo8765]

I know its hard leaving something that is the truest and most powerful thing you have ever experienced in life. But I have to ask? What have you replaced Christ with? I mean besides the hate, resentment, and fear? Serious question. I really must know. You think we could try and have a real conversation like two real people or are you too far gone for that?

[ExmormonFoundation]

Yes, you've got it. Hate, resentment, fear, pain, suffering, and don't forget self-mutilation. That's often overlooked by the righteous when discussing the state of those who leave Mormonism behind.

Sorry, too far gone, we are unable to coherently discuss anything now that we live lives sans the spirit. It's is a tragic state of being. :(

But you keep it up. Stay strong, stay true. I can barely type this over the weeping, wailing and gnashing of my own teeth.

[marcopolo8765]

You Did ask what my accomplishment were? I dont think there was a correct way to answer that question for you. you were going to use what ever answer I gave and try and turn it into something negitive. Just like you have done with your life.

[ExmormonFoundation]

yup. Just like an apostate to do that. What more would you expect from such as we?

[marcopolo8765]

I dont know to move on in life. Find something that makes you happy. Quit living in the past. Look forward to something instead of re living your failures. I know your bitter. I have dealt with people that hung on to that bitterness for 50 years. 50 years and still angry about the LDS church and their decision to leave it. If anything their stories only stand as witness to just how true the church is. I dont know what else could hold that kind of power over someone for 50 years.

[SkeptikToo]

Marco, you win! I give up! I concede to your righteousness.

I'll move on to merely helping those based in reality. Bye-bye Prince Charming.

[marcopolo8765]

I'd love to know how your helping people and what effect you really have on people. If There is a winner or loser here. I'd say were both losing by beating ourselfs. There is so much more to do than argue or put someone or something down because we dont understand it or failed to be a part of it.. In essence we kind of are our own worst enemy.

[ExmormonFoundation]

Your myopia may be beyond repair. You have no interest in understanding, only maintaining ignorance. You're not interested in reality, you're interested only in contorting your beliefs into reality for the rest of us. It can't be done, you live in a fantasy world, not reality.

Once someone can see that the Earth is not the center of the solar system & universe, the world and universe are born anew, never to be seen the same way again.

Look through the telescope & verify your claims.

[marcopolo8765]

The only thing that I can see is a resentful angry man that has nothing better to do than to relive his failures until the day he dies. Not much to offer the world there but then again we all get what we give. And when you give nothing... Well thats really what you get back in return. You should try giving something to humanity for a change. Try it on you may just like what find.Beats being your own worst enemy.

[ExmormonFoundation]

Thanks for stopping by oh inspired one. Good luck with that religion of yours. And be sure to stop by often to reinforce your position of certainty; obviously you have the truth otherwise you would not keep returning here again and again to confirm such to yourself.

(crawling back into the pit of bitterness and anger now.)

[marcopolo8765]

Oh yeah Im also a successful business owner that has been on TV twice for my humanitarian efforts. A carpenter by trade and a loving father and husband of 5. We work hard at helping others and improving the quality of life for everyone around us. When you get tired of hurting and attacking people out of spite for something you failed at. Maybe you should look into giving instead of taking?

[ExmormonFoundation]

Your ideas are what are up for discussion, criticism & dismissal, but like a good cultist, your ideas and "You" have been meshed into one. If your ideas are absurd, such as the global flood, tower of Babel, Kolob as the light source for the Sun, magically protective underwear etc. then such is going to be criticized & debated & those who support & spread such nonsense are also held accountable for their claims.

Ideas don't get a free pass because they're cloaked in "faith."

Truth matters

[exmoagogo]

marco.... it's "too" not "to"

It's "their" not "there"

It's "you're" not "your"

Your grammar is as good as Joe Smith's!

[marcopolo8765]

@exmoagogo Ill take that as as extremely high complement coming from you my old friend. I love words of encouragement.

[SunKider]

RE: grammar as good as Joe Smith

the joke is lost on marcopolo.

Believing LDS members do not know that the B of M dictated by Joe Smith had atrocious grammar. They don't know that there have been approx. 4,000 changes to the book (including spelling & grammar changes). Of course the more significant changes in doctrinal meaning are also unknown by believers.

If they only knew more about the origins of their own religion.

Those who want to know truth will read history and see for themselves.

[marcopolo8765]

@SunKider Yes I agree Sun. I hope people do look into history and the history of the LDS chuch. Yourself included. So that even you can someday come to have all the blessings that Christ has in store for you and . Ask you local LDS missionary for help finding that sweet spirit of Christ that is missing from your life.

[ExmormonFoundation]

And he's back folks. No fact too strong, nor evidence overwhelming will ever show dear Marco that he's been had. He's got "faith" that despite the nonsense and absurdities it's all real. Powerful stuff I tells ya, powerful stuff.

Press on oh defender, press on.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

[marcopolo8765]

@ExmormonFoundation It would seem as if everytime someone with proof that the church is true speaks up and tries to give something special and meaningful to the world. Someone with less than admirable intentions has to step up and try to knock him down. Does it really have to be your callling in life to try and stop people that have done what you failed at? You can be resentful all you want to but its not going to help anyone. And its killing you!

[ExmormonFoundation]

You're a special young man.

[thesignsoflife7]

@marcopolo8765

The Mormon church is not true, it's a scam.

If people knew the trap they were walking into they'd never have joined the cult.

[DrTerminus]

@SunKider All the more reason to believe that Joseph Smith couldn't have written the BoM. Changes in the Book of Mormon. So what? Changes in the Bible. So what? I believe the principles written therein. I don't believe in punctuation changes. I invite you to learn the beautiful doctrines and principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They can change your life for the better.

[MrWSChurchill]

You betray your ignorance, & you being a Dr. and all, for shame! Surely someone with your rigorous scientific training can utilize those skills to see that the changes made to the BoM were not merely punctuation but actual changes to the text. Supposedly the "revelation" through Smith's stone had to be word for word perfect, but what does that matter. One should not expect consistency with the story or the content right? But as a Dr. you must be used to ignoring evidence all the time by now.

[exmoagogo]

Brilliant!

[mattstrum]

This was definitely my favorite talk, great job!

[exmobot]

Thanks so much for providing these videos to us!

[awolLDSasap]

Outstanding efforts!!