source of this idea- is the bad riders that are all well known..lots of people know that anky van grusen uses rollkur. and beginners may think that is what dressage is cause thats all theyve heard of. Lots of people DONT know that Blue Hors Matine was the greatest dressage horse ever!! Or who scored the highest score in the olympics last year. Nope- all you hear about is who used rollkur in the warm up arena. And thats all beginners are interested in. The bad stuff!! this is misleading...
@hannahblackwolf14 Isabell herself uses LDR (FEI term for RK) and speaks in it's defense. Van Grunsven pioneered it, under the guidance of Janssen who likely formulated this method from watching Paul Shockemohle and Nicole Uphoff (who used a similar and generally regarded as less severe variation of LDR on Rembrandt). I thought it was common knowledge that Isabell, like many, many top competition rider's, use "LDR". No doubt if you pop down to your local even PC comp you'll get to see horses..
@hannahblackwolf14 ridden in a frame not dissimilar to what we call LDR-just not in the hands of experts. Satchmo's way of going was terribly incorrect-in my opinion-and talk that was bantered about immediately after this incident was that the horse was not fit to be competing as he had been witnessed blowing his lid several times when asked to perform a piaffe both during this competition and in others before and after it. The way I see it everything a horse does has a purpose..
@hannahblackwolf14 a reason and they are reacting to their immediate situation or surroundings. As humans we tend to be anthropomorphic, we often attribute animals with an ability to think as we do-"Oh, the horse was just having an off day." And off day why? What was he reacting to? And why repeatedly when asked to perform that movement? What happened to him when he did performed piaffe that made him behave and act out in that manner? Just because Isabell has won medals for her riding doesn't..
@hannahblackwolf14 OK, last reply :P That Blue Hors Matine was "The Best Dressage Horse EVER" is opinion. Opinion only. You ask anyone else and they might agree with you or they might say Toto, or Feugo or any number of horses depending on their taste in riders, training methods or even bias in relation to nationality. Adreas uses LDR/RK. There are videos on YT for all to see if you wish to do so. And IMHO Matine was not the greatest dressage horse ever-far from it.
@thecrazydolls so maybe not the best but he was amazing and i disagree with LDR to but i think there are so many people who see videos on youtube like this and think of dressage people as being these horrible riders id just like to see in a video people say its not all dressage riders... thats all i was aiming for... but all the beginners care for and hear about is all the bad things "SOME" dressage riders do.. i love the point your getting across trust me i disagree with the method to.
@hannahblackwolf14 It's not hard to find the positive stuff, I can share some with you if you like. Riding far lighter and more beautiful than I find many of the combinations who get to appear in the above seem capable of demonstrating.
While I agree Rollkur is wrong and people should be better educated, I think it's a little unfair to include pictures from Isabell Werth's mishap at the Olympics. (pictures from 1:58 - 2:06) Obviously the pressure got to either her or her horse and they messed up. That's not Rollkur... That's just a mistake.
@08emaher i agree so much Isabells pic was a mistake!! this is extremly miss leading youtube video.. if people would notice there are only a certain few people in the pictures.. not a veriaty because A TON of dressage people dont do this at all!! and it is wrong.. but beginners who see this are only going to think the worst of all dressage riders in top competition.. They need to no this is often this is wrong but there are only that handlefull who do it... beginners will think badly of us all.
@hannahblackwolf14 Misleading how? There are a variation of rider's included in the video, I felt, some well known and some nobody would know from a bar of soap. Yes, there are some riders who are included more often, but it's more to prove a point if anything. I don't feel including Isabell was a mistake, she uses LDR, the incident was not an isolated one, not even at that particular competition, so I included it to get people thinking-why was the horse behaving in this manner? Why misleading?
@hannahblackwolf14 I don't understand how you can say "beginner's will think badly of us all"-there is good included in the above as well as the bad. If people base their decision not to enter into a sport on a 7 minute Youtube video (not dissimilar to countless other's on here) then perhaps that is a good thing.
Also FYI I made this video over two years ago, I don't think it's an especially great effort, it mostly came about due to boredom when I was injured and although generally my views..
@hannahblackwolf14 on the subject remain the same there are certain things I would change about this were I to do it again. But some people seem to appreciate the effort that went into it and if it gets people thinking a little more, questioning a little more, interested enough to do their own research and learn a little more, learn a better way, than what harm is it doing, really.
@FinishtheRide No it isn't... The arabians should be more over the vertical line then a PRE for example... But still there isn't ANY horses who cary their head behind the vertical line naturally, and research proves that riding behind the vertical line aren't healthy for the horse... Not any horse.
@CameoRose well... sorta. they are allowing LDR which is the same thing... basically it says you can't keep it there with force. but that practice that at home! so they really don't look forced into the frame at warmup. but it still is unhealthy and inhumane. we need to remove it completely from warmup and competition (rollkur and all of it's other aliases ex: LDR )
Most horses in 'modern' dressage are about 8, maybe 10. Now, the one thing that EVERY classical master will say is that you should never rush the training of a horse for the sake of results, so in theory these horses at this high level should be around 14 or so if they are to correctly engage and carry their riders. Most of the horses I see in Grand prix dressage are NOT engaging and have no relaxation, which is the basis for classical dressage. I'm glad someone besides me has noticed!
i agree with all this people treach there horses like trash now and they shouldnt. judges should disqualify riders now. ive seen some like girl with spurs just beating the crap out of her pony and the judges did nothing
I agree that over stretching a horse is not good, no horse should be in pain, but most riders of the upper levels tend to have very supple horses and this 'over stretching' of the neck is likely to be the natural form of the horses neck. For example doing the splits: everyone starts off unable but after constant practice and training you can eventually do the splits easily. Another example: I have 'double jointed knees', i stand with my knees lockedout so the ligaments are slowly stretching.
Very good point. I know exactly where you're coming from. I get annoyed with the amount of flexibilty left to judges for their own opinion almost. In theory, ANY horse from a shetland to a warmblood, if trained correctly should have the same chance at winning a class. In real terms this is not whats going on, its whoever can spend the most money on a flashy warmblood type, not who does the best test. Dressage has turned into a showing arena.
@becki101x I agree with you, even at the level I compete at, it seems like if you have a dutch warmblood or something of the sort, you'll wipe out every pony or thoroughbred that competes, no matter how much better their test was
jullie snappen er niks van :P die isabelle is zelf ook niet echt een lekker mens.. moet je kijken.. haar paard protesteerd meer dan die van anky.. waar zal dat door komen ?? :)
Excellant video - I hope it reaches the attention of the people allowing this to continue. As you say - approved abuse! It can only lead 2 further atrocities down the line if permitted to continue. People will look 4 other ways to even further "improve´ the line and movement of their horse if this hyperflexion becomes the norm. Ugh doesn´t even bare thinking about. I do basic dressage training for balance & achieve enough natural collection bitless without resorting 2 doubles, martingales or RK
I took riding lessons many years ago, including dressage. Never did my instructor have me pull the horses head back so far. It's absolutely disgusting to see people abusing their horses like this. How in the world is it more attractive for the horses head, to be almost touching their neck??
Something needs to be changed. With enough outcry, I believe there can be. It will be a long process, but it can happen.
How can FEI deem saving the inheritance of the old masters, when it stamps on it with almost every hoof of every horse of every competition it organizates....? Disgusting really...
Where are all the qualified vets?! Why are all the refferees quiet?!
i was surprised to hear tool playing for a start! :D made me like you straight away. thers a great video called 'if horses could speak' that discuss a lot of these things for anyone interested (looks like u've already seen it). . one rider i saw at a local dressage day won her class and her horses sides were red raw from her spurs, thats NOT lightness. one instructor i had kept making me shorten my reins more and more, so i got a new instructor. people need to stop tolerating this riding
There's some excellent detailed articles online about the biomechanics of the correct outline and how rollkur interferes with the horse's ability to move properly. The differences in a correctly trained horse and a horse trained using hyperflexion is quite dramatic when you see them side by side. Watch the greats like Klimke...
This is really good. I am really into dressage and its foundation and history, not too into the "NEW" style of all this crap. I want my horse to be balanced and light naturally, not forced! We all have our moments of frustration but not like this. Its so bad and i agree! If the FEI has these rules then they should be applied to everyone not rewarded!
@EUROPEANSFINEST wow, and you are evidently one of those totalirian arsewipes who think anyone who doesn't think like you is dumb and shouldn't be allowed an opinion.
Good for you if you like it, but not all of us have to. Unless you've got something constructive to say, no matter whether it is for or against, don't bother pressing you fingers to the keys to let us all know just what a wankstain you are.
So true. I would never never do this to an horse. I ride for fun, because I love horses, not for winning. Those riders should do the same. They use horses like objects and that makes me soo angry!
OMG! I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU! i do get my horse in an outline but most of the time he does it himself and the lighter i hold the reins, the more responsive he is!
This whole issue reminds me of a comment made by a former TWH trainer, [the abusive practice] will stop being used when [the abusive practice] stops getting ribbons.
As much as I am happy to see videos like this, there are some inaccuracys in it.
1. What is expected to be the highest point of the horse's neck is the poll through the 3rd vertebra depending on conformation.
2. drooling is a sign of exceptance of the bit.
3. the angles of the cannon bones should match, not the forearm.
It can be dependant on conformation, personally I dont entirely agree with it w/ regards to training-ie stretching FDO, but in competition when it comes to the very best in the world I feel it is one rule that can be adhered to. With the odd exception ie cresty stallions etc. Drooling isnt. Foaming is. White lip stick is great but strings of drool all down the horses throat has been shown to be a result of the horses own ability to swallow being impaired when the head and neck is extremely..
flexed. In trot/extended trot, where the toe is pointed the foreleg should essentially be just about straight-just about-there still should not be such large discrepancies. But thats just my thoughts on it.
We do have to be careful to be specific on open forums like these though, a lot of people who don't know much will get the wrong impression of even correct riding.
Yea, I think we do too, I just put up pics of what I view as incorrect riding and thats just my opinion-not the pics at the end however-I think people also need to be mindful when they are watching this kind of stuff that they are just opinions, really.
@thecrazydolls I know that's a popular idea: that drooling shows acceptance of the bit. But why is it the only time I see any of my horses drool or froth is when I've accidently been too harsh with the bit or heavy handed? Why don't western pleasure horses drool? Mandy of them are very soft and accepting of the bit. Why only in classes where extreme amounts of pressure are put on the bit? Are there two different types of drooling or frothing?
@KnightHawke01 I've often thought about that before, too. I know someone who has a horse who is very well schooled and soft in the mouth, yet he doesn't salivate at all. My wee horse chews the bit and salivates quite a bit.
I think the general rule of thumb with these horses is that over flexion actually impairs ability to swallow so you get this mess of drool all down their front. Strings of drool. Generally speaking "white lipstick" is supposed to be good-ie some white frothing around the..
@KnightHawke01 lips. But I have seen many a horse working softly who does not have this-like wise I have seen horses ridden over bent and grinding their teeth with flash nose bands strapped on who have a "white lipstick"-supposedly a sure sign the horse is accepting the bit and "working through".
I wonder who decides what is good for a horse and what is not.
Although IMHO a wet mouth is a good thing, as this allows the bit to slide through the cheeks and sit comfortably, well, more so anyway.
@thecrazydolls hmmm deffinately some food for thought! A dry mouth deffinately isn't good. All your points are very good and logical. I wish we could just ask the horses...
@KnightHawke01 Yes, there are a few types of drooling, as there are few types of chewing on the bit. when a horse is relaxed adn thinking she will often slowly chew the bit and move it in her mouth. when a horse is nervous she will champ the bit and usually make a bit of noise, an annoyed horse will grind its teeth.
Drool is similar, a little light froth shows an active sentive mouth while the globs of white goo show an angry agitated mouth.
@mergyrlin Huh. I've never really delt with drooly horses riding western and english...so the only time I've seen in it is when I've accidently hurt them or upset them. (As a horse trainer I strive to always keep them calm and willing...I'm still learning though) That's why when I see dressage horses drooling I associate it with pain. There's deffinately a lot to learn. :) Thanks for all the info!
This video is really well put together and shows exactly what is wrong. I think a lot of this is done because the horses are big, powerful and sensitive and if they don't bury their heads to their chests they wouldn't be able to control them. Maybe in a big arena with huge crowds it is the only way they can control them??? Looks so ugly though.
Thank you for showing the pictures of what is RIGHT -- horses flexed AT THE POLL, not the crest. This would be easy to address, and I don't understand why the FEI does not. Coming out against Rollkur is a good first step, but why have they not followed their own rules all along? Had only proper flexion been rewarded, Rollkur would never have become entrenched.
in all honesty, theres only so much the FEI can do. sure, they can ban the use of rollkur in competitions, but what about every day training? its virtually impossible to regulate every single training facility throughout the world. the only way to truly change modern dressage is if every single barn/trainer went back to the classical methods, and if the main images the FEI promotes of dressage are those of correctly trained horses. sadly, i dont think that will happen
if its not proven at the training facility, or if they can't. but how about when they train at a show, im sure stewards see it all the time. now why can't they do it then? no trainer/barn will ever go back to the olden times, because these horses are bred to be like this, granted their necks arent supposed to be rollkur-ed and stuff, but its not gonna change
they can easily ban it at shows. granted, its gonna take a lot more effort on the judges/stewards part to regulate it, but thats beside the point. and i agree- not every trainer is gonna go back to classical methods. its sad, but the best we can do is get enough classically trained horse/rider combos winning at the top levels...then we might see some change in the long years ahead
I really don't understand why people use rollkur. Does it give them a stronger sense of "control". The strong bits, heavy hand, force- that is so opposite of what dressage is supposed to be. The modern dressage is so bad now! It's changing to this!
I love that even though you dont like rollkur you aren't having a go at riders rather the judges and fei for putting horses who can be overbent up the placings. you could also argue that the team selectors are more to blame as they choose the combinations put in front of the judges. Although a photo is only a fraction of a second you could find plenty of examples in the same test of a horse working correctly to fei rules
@horsegirl666 I'm not " as you so eloquently put it, I was simply pointing it out. I don't name anyone in particular, the pictures are of all different riders, and if I A. knew where the photos were and B. could get them onto the computer, my pictures I took at Kasslemann would be on her, too. The whole point of the vid is "Why are these combinations winning?". You could argue that that is a broad question not only to the wider equestrian community, but also to the judges. It's not a blame game.
@horsegirl666 As far as I am concerned, it is a question of ethical horse riding, people need to make their own choices, and the way I see it when you have combinations with horses that are visibly lame in their tests, bleeding in the mouth, throwing tantrums, etc etc, and they are winning on an international scale, setting an example to those not as fortunate to have all the money in the world to spend on facilities and specialist and vets then the ethics certainly are questionable.
@thecrazydolls I dont think I missed the point of the vid at all. at top level dressage I haven't seen lame horses compete I have heard of combinations with drawing due to horse going lame. if judges or stewards see any blood on the horse the horse is automatically eliminated and further investigations are undertaken. the tantrums couls be for any reason most of these shows are very atmospheric which can upset the quietest of horses.
@thecrazydolls Part of dressage is being able to make up marks elsewhere isabell werth is probably one of the best examples of this as satchmo threw a big tantrum and she still won the silver medal. personally I like to see them do stuff like that (not in a test though) as it shows spirit and that they are horses not robots.
@horsegirl666 I think you completely missed the point of the vid. And be that as it may, like you say, a photo is only a fraction of a second ;) and they spend far more fractions of those seconds BTV and out behind than not, so I'm thinking maybe somethings not quite right ....
I really liked this Video, I learned a lot. Being a cowgirl riding western I have never liked Dressage, I have never thought you should have contact on a horses mouth unless you were asking for something. this video has opened my eyes to a real art. and that it can be done with consideration to the horse. But just like any kind of riding there are some really really bad riders out there, that would rather follow tradition then care for there horse
I would like to know how many people responding to this video ride dressage competitively, FEI. I think a lot of the confusion over training techniques and cruelty comes from ignorant people who watch videos like this one. Not that the video is wrong per se. Over flexion exists in the sport - but as it is with all of the training methods, it is not the method or equipment that is at fault, it is the intention behind using it that determines 'cruelty.' Also - the bone pic is not accurate.
I dont believe that hyperflexion is cruelty, as with anything, it can go seriously wrong with people that have no idea what they are doing. Horse riding can also be like that at the most absic of levels. I also believe that Ankys horses are extremely well looked after and receive the best of care. The point of the vid was more about the rules, or atleast my iterpretation of them-and they seem fairly clear cut-and that most combinations spend most the time going in a manner completely..
contradictory to them. The bone pic was pulled as a still from Dr Gerd Heuschmanns movie If Horses Could speak, so I was unaware of this. Being respected reseacher on this subject, I would have thought he would have had the audacity to get something like that correct. And I cannot speak for everyone here but one upon a time I competed at Advanced/Level 6/7.
you should never never jump a horse in a martingale, if you horse starts to fall it needs it head to regain it balance. If you are using a martingale it cant get it head, I not safe or fare for the horse. Just do more training or try a bitless bridle
you should never never jump a horse in a martingale, if you horse starts to fall it needs it head to regain it balance. If you are using a martingale it cant get it head, I not safe or fare for the horse. Just do more training or try a bitless bridle
I've watched this video before never posted a comment because I think most people are gobshites and totally ignorant on remarks but your video rings true yet again dressage has gone past the point of a disgrace with the blue tounge video...Total disgrace
I think the rule that you HAVE TO take a kerb in M-Dressages is gormless. why should horses have two iron rods in their mouth? they are so poor!! i hope the FEI changes some rules and i hope that the jurists observe better at "bad´" riders/people and judge them down! @all: Please do natural horsemanship and please ride without a bridle!! it's better for your horse! ;)
sry, my english isn't very googd, i hope you understand me ;)
Th REALLY sad thing is that this isn't happening in just dressage or hunt seat. I have seen this in reining, western pleasure and other western events. People mistake this for "getting a horse light on the bit" or "getting his back up" . All they are doing is building in resistance and abrasiveness, just the OPPOSITE of what ALL proper riding, no matter the discipline, is all about. Thank you for posting not only the vidoe, but THE PHOTOS OF CORRECT DRESSAGE AND POSITION AT THE END !!!
I dont doubt that thats true, but I am not exactly trying to win any argument. I am just putting my opinion out there, like almost everybody else who has a video on the subject on Youtube. I certainly didnt set out to make a documentary :)
I like it how drawing circles and lines on pictures is considered artsy-fartsy..
Maybe you added more foam, teeth, and even photoshopped the angle of the curbs.. added more shadow to the reins digging into the horse's neck, added more white to their eyes to show illusional distress, photoshopped a horse's rear end to a horse's front doing different gaits in every picture...
Clearly, the joy shown on Mr. SmileyFace McGoo's grin at 3:09 shouldn't be reckoned with.
Lol, you crack me up..Well, I dont remember manipulating the music haha. As far as Im aware, that was pretty well just stuck on there. Although, yes, its a little atmospheric, but it is tool.
Since I am a big Tool/APC fan, I know for a fact you did not splice or use the song in a different way. Without the music, to me, the images are depressing enough. Turn the sound off Aniranch and watch it again.
Thank you SO much for posting this video. It made me want to cry but also deeply angered me. I knew this type of riding was bad, but I was unaware of the extent. It was very useful to see the FEI statements as well as the angles of the horses' heads, necks, backs, and legs. Not to mention the riders' positions! Again, thank you - this is a shining light to the dressage community.
this is so ture, but unfortunately, the FEI will do what the FEI wants to do. big flashy extensions and big flashy passages and piaffes are aesthetically pleasing and therefore monetarily pleasing. should it be all about selling dressage? oh hecks no. it should ONLY be about improving ourselves as horsepeople and our horses. and personally, they should do away with the double bridle requirement in GP. a good rider should be able to ride the upper movements with a simple snaffle
The rolkur is pretty bad but it is much more painful when at the same time the horse is flexed to the side and this really damages his neck. But hey, what the heck they broke it anyway. Who are these FEI anyway? Whatever they are they are not much use.
the FEI = Internationa; Equestrian Federation (its actually french, but i cant speak or spell french). they are basically the 'god' of the horse world; they make all of the rules and regualtions that we have to follow. George Morris put it best when he said the FEI's motto is 'often in error, never in doubt'.
can anybody help me? I am trying to get some video footage that I can download onto my computer so I can make another video...in particular I am after some stuff of totilas in passage and extended trot, among others. I not sure how to get stuff off youtube, or even if thats possible, do you just ask the person who uploaded the video? any advice would be very helpful :D
Good video. Join the facebook 'Blue Tongue video' pages where like minded individuals are pooling together knowledge and references and sheer numbers to make the FEI change their current stance on competitive dressage.
Make the FEI judges score according to the FEI dressage rules and most of the current *stars* of competitive dressage would be left without a hope of even qualifying for Novice level never mind GP! Get rid of rollkur by enforcing the rules already in place...
There is a very, very good book and DVD about Rollkur and other training methods and their effect on the horses health. It is called "If horses could speak" and the book is called "Tug of war". It written and produced by a veterinarian and some classical dressage riders. Really informative not only for dressage riders but I think something everyone should take a look at. It's here on YouTube as well.
@crazydolls: Wonderful and very right comments. The thing is that the FEi decided that Dressage has to become more profitable. So they changed the rules from classical dressage to show dressage and create Showstars like they are appearing now. The aim of this Show Dressage is no longer the natural enhancement of the horses natural abilities but to make them spectacular for the audience. It's more circus than dressage. And you are right about the horses back when Rolkured.
Best vid on rollkur ever. bt u featured ANDREAS HELGSTRAND on BLUE HORS MATINE and im almost positive he doesnt ues rollkur or any other from of banned ridding. in the pics he wasnt even in rollkur.
as far as i am aware, yes he does. but in any case, matinee, as pretty and all as she was, and as much as I loved her, was not collected. and often behind the vertical.
That's ridiculous that some horses' careers only last five years. That should tell people that something's wrong. Plenty of horses are still sound and servicable well into their 20's. My trainer's 32 yo mare is still in good shape and is ridden regularly. It's all about how you maintain them.
Very nice video, btw. You should send it to the FEI.
Thank you. I think we need to start seeing that again. Horses approaching their 20's, sound happy and healthy and winning at the highest level. Not doing so at 8-9 and broken down by 15.
Exactly, just like Beezie's horse, Judgment. He's 17 or 18 now and still competing (and winning) against 8 year olds. That should send out a message to everyone who thinks it's normal to retire a horse at 8-10 years of age.
German press and FEI homepage. Of course now these rules have to be really implemented but we as the audience have a chance to force that. Extensive Rollkur is to be punished with yellow cards. Two yellow cards within a year lead to a suspension of the rider for two month.
Hmm...its not exactly banned. And its not exactly going to stop the above featured in the video from happening because they will still go home and practise it. Its simply an actual penalty system to back the rules already in place. But once again its down to the opinion of the stewards...how long is too long? The steward in Odense would not yellow card Kittel because he was no worse than anyone else riding. Will they have the balls to stand up to a whole arena of idiots riding in hyperflexion?
okay, I am sorry to say but you are right. Unfortunatly. Today I say, start boycotting the FEI because today the legalized doping medications like bute and acc. This is the point where I can no longer defend my sport. It's time to get the hell out of the FEI. Sad.
Absolutely brilliant video. Send this video to The FEI president Princess Haya IMMEDIATELY.
8 out of 10 riders on the international circuit ride with a double bridle as though they have only i rein in their hand, they either do not know the 2 bits each have a distinct function, or they they see it as a means to inflict force and pain to the horse. Bring back Reiner Klimke.
Thank you for posting. I wonder of any top level judges will read this? HOW can they sit there and continually reward the incorrect practices we can all see even at Olympic level....
I could have tried if my man hadnt destroyed all the photos when he was rearranging them on the computer but I cant find the complete vid saved anywhere on the computer now...sorry
You see a horse playing, in its natural state, do all the things a SRS horse does at times. I have never seen a horse hyperflex and make its tongue go numb when out playing with its friends. Good riding uses what the horse does naturally - bad riding makes the horse do unnatural things! This video sums up the worst riding so well - yet it is what we see at the top of FEI dressage. The FEI must now start to take action to stop this abuse of horses.
What will it take to make people listen? We must ALL address the FEI and also vote with feet and money. Contact the sponsors of the Roll-kur riders and tell them, why you will not buy their products!
boahr, langsam regt mich das echt auf... ich mein versteht mich nich falsch, ich finde rollkur absolut scheiße, aber muss man den jeden reiter, jedes pferd was an der spitze geht der rollkur bezichtigen...
ich meine martine, satchmo?? also ich seh in diesen strichen keine beweise... also man muss auch mal sehen aus welchem winkel die fotos geschossen sind...
oder "warum nicht"... habt ihr euch mal die anatomie des pferdes angesehn... den kann man nich anders einstellen... ich finds schade dass so große momente wie martine in aachen bei der weltmeisterschaft, wo allen der atem stillgestanden ist (ich war live dabei), hier in dieser form angezweifelt werden... sein größter erfolg in seiner karriere wird so vermaledeit... schämt euch!!
natürlich können die pferde mal hinter die senkrechten kommen... ich mein das is doch nich gleich tierquälerei...
also ich muss sagen das is traurig für die wirklich großen reiter, das ihre leistungen so angezweifelt werden...
und ich muss sagen ich bin wirklich beeindruckt von martine, totilas und co. auch wenn gerade der zweitere falsch gearbeitet wird... festzuhalten ist, dass er das mit abstand am entspanntensten pferde war. Punkt
What level is this? Please tell me these are people that don't know any better. No, that doesn't excuse anything in my mind, either. I would hope the riders would know better.
*happy that her pony trots along merrily on a floppy rein, is eager to go out and has been sound for 13 yrs*
Well, they should. A few prominent dressage riders are featured, some of the pics are from the olympics last year. So, mostly grand prix. I've seen it used on young horses as well, one shied and bolted madly every time the girl tried to use it. Poor kid was bawling her eyes out and the instructor was screaming her nut off. Over all, not a very happy picture, I thought.
What has become of horsemanship... :( There can't be much of a bond between horse and rider if this is what is in the show ring. I always pictured the peak of dressage to be the Spanish Riding School, so much for that ideal. The Lipizzaners (sp) always appear to be enjoying their work. These warmbloods? Poor horses.
My horse would likely do this if I asked him, but to what end? Is not a collected horse on a loose rein more smooth to ride? Does it not foster a better working relationship?
The likes of the Spanish Riding School is the height of dressage-you wouldn't see these horses performing high school movements, besides their generally lack luster piaffe and passage, because the simply are not collected enough to do it.
You could train your horse to do these things but you don't need hyperflexion to do it.
I read a post on another video saying that this exercise, for the purpose of dressage, was literally pointless as its not required to have a huge amount of felxion
in the middle neck region or even over the back. It's often used to establish control over flighty animals especially and found to "calm" such animals....I think that says a lot about it.
Rather than using human logic, a true Horseman approaches a horse with an attitude and communication techniques that make perfect sense to the horse. A horseman understands horse psychology, how horses think and behave, and is able to use this knowledge for relating to and developing a horse.
Becoming a horseman means you take the time to understand horse psychology and use it for relating to and developing a horse. The dominant or 'alpha' horse is the most effective horse trainer ever born. So rather than using people logic, a true horseman approaches horses with the same attitude and communication techniques as another horse. Become a natural with horses through communication, knowledge and psychology rather than force, fear or intimidation.
Thank you for this video, and for your and your commenter's concerns and outrage about the crimes being perpetuated against the noble sport of horsemanship.
and as we know Gribaldi threw more than one tantrum during his tests, refusing to piaffe and eventually decided to be too difficult to ride and keep sound and retired to stud as well. Maybe one day Totilas will do the same, but I guess only time will tell. If people looked up a few of Gals former rides, I dont think he would be such a little darling, however. All it takes is a little digging to find the truth
Great video :) The look on the horse's face at 2.30 is terrible, he looks like he's being attacked by a lion. I know what you mean about Totilas seeming perfect to the outside world, but he might well be the downfall of Rollkur. Everyone has seen what a laid back horse he is and if that changes, like it did with Gribaldi, people might sit up and take note that Rollkur isn't the way to go long term or short term.
The horse being attacked by a lion is Lingh. One of Gals former rides and a horse who lasted all of a year or so at the top of his game-and he was obviously good, claiming 2nd at the World Cup Dressage in 2004-strangely sold off after, like many others, disappearing from competition for a while. He is now retired to stud. Evidently this is not the only time he bolted in the arena, bolting being one of the primary reactions, or flight responses triggered by LDR. Not a happy camper.
Not only are they being rewarded with the championships, now we have broken through the "glass ceiling" of 90%--the scores keep getting crazier, never mind they shouldn't be getting the top scores AT ALL. (jmho)
great video....
kerryfletcher1 3 weeks ago
source of this idea- is the bad riders that are all well known..lots of people know that anky van grusen uses rollkur. and beginners may think that is what dressage is cause thats all theyve heard of. Lots of people DONT know that Blue Hors Matine was the greatest dressage horse ever!! Or who scored the highest score in the olympics last year. Nope- all you hear about is who used rollkur in the warm up arena. And thats all beginners are interested in. The bad stuff!! this is misleading...
hannahblackwolf14 5 months ago
@hannahblackwolf14 Isabell herself uses LDR (FEI term for RK) and speaks in it's defense. Van Grunsven pioneered it, under the guidance of Janssen who likely formulated this method from watching Paul Shockemohle and Nicole Uphoff (who used a similar and generally regarded as less severe variation of LDR on Rembrandt). I thought it was common knowledge that Isabell, like many, many top competition rider's, use "LDR". No doubt if you pop down to your local even PC comp you'll get to see horses..
thecrazydolls 5 months ago
@hannahblackwolf14 ridden in a frame not dissimilar to what we call LDR-just not in the hands of experts. Satchmo's way of going was terribly incorrect-in my opinion-and talk that was bantered about immediately after this incident was that the horse was not fit to be competing as he had been witnessed blowing his lid several times when asked to perform a piaffe both during this competition and in others before and after it. The way I see it everything a horse does has a purpose..
thecrazydolls 5 months ago
@hannahblackwolf14 a reason and they are reacting to their immediate situation or surroundings. As humans we tend to be anthropomorphic, we often attribute animals with an ability to think as we do-"Oh, the horse was just having an off day." And off day why? What was he reacting to? And why repeatedly when asked to perform that movement? What happened to him when he did performed piaffe that made him behave and act out in that manner? Just because Isabell has won medals for her riding doesn't..
thecrazydolls 5 months ago
@hannahblackwolf14 put her or her animals above these questions. It's there to make people think. That's all.
thecrazydolls 5 months ago
@hannahblackwolf14 OK, last reply :P That Blue Hors Matine was "The Best Dressage Horse EVER" is opinion. Opinion only. You ask anyone else and they might agree with you or they might say Toto, or Feugo or any number of horses depending on their taste in riders, training methods or even bias in relation to nationality. Adreas uses LDR/RK. There are videos on YT for all to see if you wish to do so. And IMHO Matine was not the greatest dressage horse ever-far from it.
thecrazydolls 5 months ago
@thecrazydolls so maybe not the best but he was amazing and i disagree with LDR to but i think there are so many people who see videos on youtube like this and think of dressage people as being these horrible riders id just like to see in a video people say its not all dressage riders... thats all i was aiming for... but all the beginners care for and hear about is all the bad things "SOME" dressage riders do.. i love the point your getting across trust me i disagree with the method to.
hannahblackwolf14 5 months ago
@hannahblackwolf14 It's not hard to find the positive stuff, I can share some with you if you like. Riding far lighter and more beautiful than I find many of the combinations who get to appear in the above seem capable of demonstrating.
Just my humble opinion though :)
thecrazydolls 5 months ago
While I agree Rollkur is wrong and people should be better educated, I think it's a little unfair to include pictures from Isabell Werth's mishap at the Olympics. (pictures from 1:58 - 2:06) Obviously the pressure got to either her or her horse and they messed up. That's not Rollkur... That's just a mistake.
08emaher 5 months ago
@08emaher i agree so much Isabells pic was a mistake!! this is extremly miss leading youtube video.. if people would notice there are only a certain few people in the pictures.. not a veriaty because A TON of dressage people dont do this at all!! and it is wrong.. but beginners who see this are only going to think the worst of all dressage riders in top competition.. They need to no this is often this is wrong but there are only that handlefull who do it... beginners will think badly of us all.
hannahblackwolf14 5 months ago
@hannahblackwolf14 Misleading how? There are a variation of rider's included in the video, I felt, some well known and some nobody would know from a bar of soap. Yes, there are some riders who are included more often, but it's more to prove a point if anything. I don't feel including Isabell was a mistake, she uses LDR, the incident was not an isolated one, not even at that particular competition, so I included it to get people thinking-why was the horse behaving in this manner? Why misleading?
thecrazydolls 5 months ago
@hannahblackwolf14 I don't understand how you can say "beginner's will think badly of us all"-there is good included in the above as well as the bad. If people base their decision not to enter into a sport on a 7 minute Youtube video (not dissimilar to countless other's on here) then perhaps that is a good thing.
Also FYI I made this video over two years ago, I don't think it's an especially great effort, it mostly came about due to boredom when I was injured and although generally my views..
thecrazydolls 5 months ago
@hannahblackwolf14 on the subject remain the same there are certain things I would change about this were I to do it again. But some people seem to appreciate the effort that went into it and if it gets people thinking a little more, questioning a little more, interested enough to do their own research and learn a little more, learn a better way, than what harm is it doing, really.
thecrazydolls 5 months ago
I loved this video! Good to see that there I'm not alone taking (more or less...) action against this.
Marixxen2 7 months ago
Some horses, like arabians, thier natural collection is a little behind the vertical. It really just also depends on what's natural for your horse.
FinishtheRide 7 months ago
@FinishtheRide No it isn't... The arabians should be more over the vertical line then a PRE for example... But still there isn't ANY horses who cary their head behind the vertical line naturally, and research proves that riding behind the vertical line aren't healthy for the horse... Not any horse.
Marixxen2 7 months ago
Rollkur was banned by the FEI last year-FINALLY!
CameoRose 7 months ago
@CameoRose well... sorta. they are allowing LDR which is the same thing... basically it says you can't keep it there with force. but that practice that at home! so they really don't look forced into the frame at warmup. but it still is unhealthy and inhumane. we need to remove it completely from warmup and competition (rollkur and all of it's other aliases ex: LDR )
EquineJunkie88 6 months ago
Most horses in 'modern' dressage are about 8, maybe 10. Now, the one thing that EVERY classical master will say is that you should never rush the training of a horse for the sake of results, so in theory these horses at this high level should be around 14 or so if they are to correctly engage and carry their riders. Most of the horses I see in Grand prix dressage are NOT engaging and have no relaxation, which is the basis for classical dressage. I'm glad someone besides me has noticed!
Glykyrrhiza 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I'm glad my horse dosen't go like that :O
SuperMemphisBelle 9 months ago
I'm glad my horse dosen't go like that :O
SuperMemphisBelle 9 months ago
Amazing video but it makes me so sad.
camillajonsson 10 months ago
beautiful video. I'm not a dressage rider, but I still was intrigued and definitely agree with you.
lilacwinteraire 11 months ago
awesome video :)
SuperChiquita666 11 months ago
i agree with all this people treach there horses like trash now and they shouldnt. judges should disqualify riders now. ive seen some like girl with spurs just beating the crap out of her pony and the judges did nothing
Dressageg123 1 year ago
zeik nie zo ga zelf leren rijden!
PPKonijnProductions 1 year ago
@PPKonijnProductions PRECIES!! .. iedereen heeft een mening tegenwoordig over dingen waar ze geen verstand van hebben :S
timwaagmeester1987 1 year ago
ok so your saying when a horse does flying lead changes it has resistance?
DressageGirly1 1 year ago
I agree that over stretching a horse is not good, no horse should be in pain, but most riders of the upper levels tend to have very supple horses and this 'over stretching' of the neck is likely to be the natural form of the horses neck. For example doing the splits: everyone starts off unable but after constant practice and training you can eventually do the splits easily. Another example: I have 'double jointed knees', i stand with my knees lockedout so the ligaments are slowly stretching.
twilird 1 year ago
Very good point. I know exactly where you're coming from. I get annoyed with the amount of flexibilty left to judges for their own opinion almost. In theory, ANY horse from a shetland to a warmblood, if trained correctly should have the same chance at winning a class. In real terms this is not whats going on, its whoever can spend the most money on a flashy warmblood type, not who does the best test. Dressage has turned into a showing arena.
becki101x 1 year ago
@becki101x I agree with you, even at the level I compete at, it seems like if you have a dutch warmblood or something of the sort, you'll wipe out every pony or thoroughbred that competes, no matter how much better their test was
iEvent88 1 year ago
Omg,POOR horses =*(
HOW can which people do that??
I hope they DIE ,slowly and distressfull!!! )=*(
ILoveMyHorse23 1 year ago
jullie snappen er niks van :P die isabelle is zelf ook niet echt een lekker mens.. moet je kijken.. haar paard protesteerd meer dan die van anky.. waar zal dat door komen ?? :)
kenrowable 1 year ago
0.33 is geen rollkur :S snap jij er wel wat van?
kenrowable 1 year ago
@kenrowable nee ze snappen er niets van .. maar wel comentaar leveren :S
timwaagmeester1987 1 year ago
Excellant video - I hope it reaches the attention of the people allowing this to continue. As you say - approved abuse! It can only lead 2 further atrocities down the line if permitted to continue. People will look 4 other ways to even further "improve´ the line and movement of their horse if this hyperflexion becomes the norm. Ugh doesn´t even bare thinking about. I do basic dressage training for balance & achieve enough natural collection bitless without resorting 2 doubles, martingales or RK
LaRanaTJ 1 year ago
Anky sued this article writer( go on horsegirltv and onto her blog and you'll find it) because she accused Anky of the Rollkur
equestrianchick92 1 year ago
:58 don't know why even bothering block the face you can tell by the orange and the horse it's anky
equestrianchick92 1 year ago
auf manchen bildern ist es aber nicht sehr deutlich. auf manchen hingegen sehr!! vor allem anky!
yubdailee 1 year ago
The horses look sad and there spirit looks shattered :(
bighorses1 1 year ago
I liked ur video.
OxanaBarratt 1 year ago
I took riding lessons many years ago, including dressage. Never did my instructor have me pull the horses head back so far. It's absolutely disgusting to see people abusing their horses like this. How in the world is it more attractive for the horses head, to be almost touching their neck??
Something needs to be changed. With enough outcry, I believe there can be. It will be a long process, but it can happen.
Bizcuitzmakr 1 year ago
o.m.g!
waar zuren jullie om?!!
kijk ANKY CLINIC LAAG DIEP EN ROND!!
alles legt de koningin van de dressuur uit!! (anky!)
themultihanna 1 year ago
How can FEI deem saving the inheritance of the old masters, when it stamps on it with almost every hoof of every horse of every competition it organizates....? Disgusting really...
Where are all the qualified vets?! Why are all the refferees quiet?!
Elerian17 1 year ago
my riding instructor says the bit is only as strong as the riders hands.
KatsavesAnimals 1 year ago
So, as a horseman not into dressage where does a dressage trainer/rider make the distinction between horse "abuse" and "training"?
jonnythunderwalker 1 year ago
well done! I agree with completly and as a dressage competiter I think it doesn't even look nice to see a horse being ridden like that!
yaarabash 1 year ago 2
i was surprised to hear tool playing for a start! :D made me like you straight away. thers a great video called 'if horses could speak' that discuss a lot of these things for anyone interested (looks like u've already seen it). . one rider i saw at a local dressage day won her class and her horses sides were red raw from her spurs, thats NOT lightness. one instructor i had kept making me shorten my reins more and more, so i got a new instructor. people need to stop tolerating this riding
02Early 1 year ago 2
@02Early That is why I am still looking for a good instructor.. there are so few of them it seems to be.
inwe1205 1 year ago
There's some excellent detailed articles online about the biomechanics of the correct outline and how rollkur interferes with the horse's ability to move properly. The differences in a correctly trained horse and a horse trained using hyperflexion is quite dramatic when you see them side by side. Watch the greats like Klimke...
platypussy79 1 year ago
@platypussy79 That's right. Dr. Klimke would turn around inside his grave...
111114124 1 year ago
This is really good. I am really into dressage and its foundation and history, not too into the "NEW" style of all this crap. I want my horse to be balanced and light naturally, not forced! We all have our moments of frustration but not like this. Its so bad and i agree! If the FEI has these rules then they should be applied to everyone not rewarded!
tropicalponi 1 year ago
All u are dumb it's always gonna be like that and will never change!lol
EUROPEANSFINEST 1 year ago
@EUROPEANSFINEST wow, and you are evidently one of those totalirian arsewipes who think anyone who doesn't think like you is dumb and shouldn't be allowed an opinion.
Good for you if you like it, but not all of us have to. Unless you've got something constructive to say, no matter whether it is for or against, don't bother pressing you fingers to the keys to let us all know just what a wankstain you are.
Cheers.
thecrazydolls 1 year ago
So true. I would never never do this to an horse. I ride for fun, because I love horses, not for winning. Those riders should do the same. They use horses like objects and that makes me soo angry!
Eldouradaa 1 year ago
I AGREE!!! OMG those pictures are terrible! ='( I watched the whole thing and afterwards I was just... WHAT?!?!!!!...
THANK YOU!! You're a true animal friend! People need to see this to UNDERSTAND!! To realize that this is going in a totally wrong direction!
Thank you!
SametHorses 1 year ago
@SametHorses I agree too. Where are the people with a kind heart towards horses?
111114124 1 year ago
good point here
oxWiLdHoRsExo 1 year ago
OMG! I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU! i do get my horse in an outline but most of the time he does it himself and the lighter i hold the reins, the more responsive he is!
flippyflappyflo 1 year ago
This whole issue reminds me of a comment made by a former TWH trainer, [the abusive practice] will stop being used when [the abusive practice] stops getting ribbons.
As much as I am happy to see videos like this, there are some inaccuracys in it.
1. What is expected to be the highest point of the horse's neck is the poll through the 3rd vertebra depending on conformation.
2. drooling is a sign of exceptance of the bit.
3. the angles of the cannon bones should match, not the forearm.
jmdnarri 1 year ago
It can be dependant on conformation, personally I dont entirely agree with it w/ regards to training-ie stretching FDO, but in competition when it comes to the very best in the world I feel it is one rule that can be adhered to. With the odd exception ie cresty stallions etc. Drooling isnt. Foaming is. White lip stick is great but strings of drool all down the horses throat has been shown to be a result of the horses own ability to swallow being impaired when the head and neck is extremely..
thecrazydolls 1 year ago
flexed. In trot/extended trot, where the toe is pointed the foreleg should essentially be just about straight-just about-there still should not be such large discrepancies. But thats just my thoughts on it.
thecrazydolls 1 year ago
sorry, all down the horses front, not his throat
thecrazydolls 1 year ago
Ok thanks for clarifying.
We do have to be careful to be specific on open forums like these though, a lot of people who don't know much will get the wrong impression of even correct riding.
jmdnarri 1 year ago
Yea, I think we do too, I just put up pics of what I view as incorrect riding and thats just my opinion-not the pics at the end however-I think people also need to be mindful when they are watching this kind of stuff that they are just opinions, really.
thecrazydolls 1 year ago
@thecrazydolls I know that's a popular idea: that drooling shows acceptance of the bit. But why is it the only time I see any of my horses drool or froth is when I've accidently been too harsh with the bit or heavy handed? Why don't western pleasure horses drool? Mandy of them are very soft and accepting of the bit. Why only in classes where extreme amounts of pressure are put on the bit? Are there two different types of drooling or frothing?
KnightHawke01 1 year ago
@KnightHawke01 I've often thought about that before, too. I know someone who has a horse who is very well schooled and soft in the mouth, yet he doesn't salivate at all. My wee horse chews the bit and salivates quite a bit.
I think the general rule of thumb with these horses is that over flexion actually impairs ability to swallow so you get this mess of drool all down their front. Strings of drool. Generally speaking "white lipstick" is supposed to be good-ie some white frothing around the..
thecrazydolls 1 year ago
@KnightHawke01 lips. But I have seen many a horse working softly who does not have this-like wise I have seen horses ridden over bent and grinding their teeth with flash nose bands strapped on who have a "white lipstick"-supposedly a sure sign the horse is accepting the bit and "working through".
I wonder who decides what is good for a horse and what is not.
Although IMHO a wet mouth is a good thing, as this allows the bit to slide through the cheeks and sit comfortably, well, more so anyway.
thecrazydolls 1 year ago
@KnightHawke01 And I guess this may or may not result in frothing or the "white lipstick".
thecrazydolls 1 year ago
@thecrazydolls hmmm deffinately some food for thought! A dry mouth deffinately isn't good. All your points are very good and logical. I wish we could just ask the horses...
KnightHawke01 1 year ago
@KnightHawke01 so do I..
thecrazydolls 1 year ago
@KnightHawke01 Yes, there are a few types of drooling, as there are few types of chewing on the bit. when a horse is relaxed adn thinking she will often slowly chew the bit and move it in her mouth. when a horse is nervous she will champ the bit and usually make a bit of noise, an annoyed horse will grind its teeth.
Drool is similar, a little light froth shows an active sentive mouth while the globs of white goo show an angry agitated mouth.
mergyrlin 1 year ago
@mergyrlin Huh. I've never really delt with drooly horses riding western and english...so the only time I've seen in it is when I've accidently hurt them or upset them. (As a horse trainer I strive to always keep them calm and willing...I'm still learning though) That's why when I see dressage horses drooling I associate it with pain. There's deffinately a lot to learn. :) Thanks for all the info!
KnightHawke01 1 year ago
@jmdnarri Thank you for putting up a great comment. The judging needs to change!!!!
TheSallyleigh 1 year ago
@jmdnarri since when is the third vertebra the poll? The rules state the poll is the highest point.
sumicaro 1 year ago
This video is really well put together and shows exactly what is wrong. I think a lot of this is done because the horses are big, powerful and sensitive and if they don't bury their heads to their chests they wouldn't be able to control them. Maybe in a big arena with huge crowds it is the only way they can control them??? Looks so ugly though.
keyses 1 year ago
Thank you for showing the pictures of what is RIGHT -- horses flexed AT THE POLL, not the crest. This would be easy to address, and I don't understand why the FEI does not. Coming out against Rollkur is a good first step, but why have they not followed their own rules all along? Had only proper flexion been rewarded, Rollkur would never have become entrenched.
doryble 1 year ago
what i dont get, as much as this video makes sense, is why the fei is not stepping in?
thebluebot 1 year ago
in all honesty, theres only so much the FEI can do. sure, they can ban the use of rollkur in competitions, but what about every day training? its virtually impossible to regulate every single training facility throughout the world. the only way to truly change modern dressage is if every single barn/trainer went back to the classical methods, and if the main images the FEI promotes of dressage are those of correctly trained horses. sadly, i dont think that will happen
chrissyluvhorsey 1 year ago
if its not proven at the training facility, or if they can't. but how about when they train at a show, im sure stewards see it all the time. now why can't they do it then? no trainer/barn will ever go back to the olden times, because these horses are bred to be like this, granted their necks arent supposed to be rollkur-ed and stuff, but its not gonna change
thebluebot 1 year ago
they can easily ban it at shows. granted, its gonna take a lot more effort on the judges/stewards part to regulate it, but thats beside the point. and i agree- not every trainer is gonna go back to classical methods. its sad, but the best we can do is get enough classically trained horse/rider combos winning at the top levels...then we might see some change in the long years ahead
chrissyluvhorsey 1 year ago
i hope so...
thebluebot 1 year ago
Great video. Well done!
Lista19 2 years ago
This is brilliant. I have made this argument before but you illustrate it beautifully.
TheProudHorsePR 2 years ago
thank you
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
I really don't understand why people use rollkur. Does it give them a stronger sense of "control". The strong bits, heavy hand, force- that is so opposite of what dressage is supposed to be. The modern dressage is so bad now! It's changing to this!
nature2horses 2 years ago
I think its because they are after a quick fix and cant be bothered to train their horses correctly and classically. Tosspots!!
lydquine 2 years ago
I love that even though you dont like rollkur you aren't having a go at riders rather the judges and fei for putting horses who can be overbent up the placings. you could also argue that the team selectors are more to blame as they choose the combinations put in front of the judges. Although a photo is only a fraction of a second you could find plenty of examples in the same test of a horse working correctly to fei rules
horsegirl666 2 years ago
@horsegirl666 I'm not " as you so eloquently put it, I was simply pointing it out. I don't name anyone in particular, the pictures are of all different riders, and if I A. knew where the photos were and B. could get them onto the computer, my pictures I took at Kasslemann would be on her, too. The whole point of the vid is "Why are these combinations winning?". You could argue that that is a broad question not only to the wider equestrian community, but also to the judges. It's not a blame game.
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
@horsegirl666 As far as I am concerned, it is a question of ethical horse riding, people need to make their own choices, and the way I see it when you have combinations with horses that are visibly lame in their tests, bleeding in the mouth, throwing tantrums, etc etc, and they are winning on an international scale, setting an example to those not as fortunate to have all the money in the world to spend on facilities and specialist and vets then the ethics certainly are questionable.
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
@thecrazydolls I dont think I missed the point of the vid at all. at top level dressage I haven't seen lame horses compete I have heard of combinations with drawing due to horse going lame. if judges or stewards see any blood on the horse the horse is automatically eliminated and further investigations are undertaken. the tantrums couls be for any reason most of these shows are very atmospheric which can upset the quietest of horses.
horsegirl666 2 years ago
@thecrazydolls Part of dressage is being able to make up marks elsewhere isabell werth is probably one of the best examples of this as satchmo threw a big tantrum and she still won the silver medal. personally I like to see them do stuff like that (not in a test though) as it shows spirit and that they are horses not robots.
horsegirl666 2 years ago
@horsegirl666 I think you completely missed the point of the vid. And be that as it may, like you say, a photo is only a fraction of a second ;) and they spend far more fractions of those seconds BTV and out behind than not, so I'm thinking maybe somethings not quite right ....
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
I really liked this Video, I learned a lot. Being a cowgirl riding western I have never liked Dressage, I have never thought you should have contact on a horses mouth unless you were asking for something. this video has opened my eyes to a real art. and that it can be done with consideration to the horse. But just like any kind of riding there are some really really bad riders out there, that would rather follow tradition then care for there horse
yukontanya 2 years ago
thanx :)
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
I would like to know how many people responding to this video ride dressage competitively, FEI. I think a lot of the confusion over training techniques and cruelty comes from ignorant people who watch videos like this one. Not that the video is wrong per se. Over flexion exists in the sport - but as it is with all of the training methods, it is not the method or equipment that is at fault, it is the intention behind using it that determines 'cruelty.' Also - the bone pic is not accurate.
CH3NHNH2 2 years ago
I dont believe that hyperflexion is cruelty, as with anything, it can go seriously wrong with people that have no idea what they are doing. Horse riding can also be like that at the most absic of levels. I also believe that Ankys horses are extremely well looked after and receive the best of care. The point of the vid was more about the rules, or atleast my iterpretation of them-and they seem fairly clear cut-and that most combinations spend most the time going in a manner completely..
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
contradictory to them. The bone pic was pulled as a still from Dr Gerd Heuschmanns movie If Horses Could speak, so I was unaware of this. Being respected reseacher on this subject, I would have thought he would have had the audacity to get something like that correct. And I cannot speak for everyone here but one upon a time I competed at Advanced/Level 6/7.
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
I'd just like to say, regarding good riding: Andrew Hoy rode the Burghley cross country course in a snaffle with no martingale. ***My HERO!*** ***
saqmatit 2 years ago
you should never never jump a horse in a martingale, if you horse starts to fall it needs it head to regain it balance. If you are using a martingale it cant get it head, I not safe or fare for the horse. Just do more training or try a bitless bridle
yukontanya 2 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
you should never never jump a horse in a martingale, if you horse starts to fall it needs it head to regain it balance. If you are using a martingale it cant get it head, I not safe or fare for the horse. Just do more training or try a bitless bridle
yukontanya 2 years ago
Said right out of the horse´s mouth...
BonVuaz 2 years ago
Comment removed
BonVuaz 2 years ago
I've watched this video before never posted a comment because I think most people are gobshites and totally ignorant on remarks but your video rings true yet again dressage has gone past the point of a disgrace with the blue tounge video...Total disgrace
rahara1 2 years ago
lol Grunsven busted
Sw0rdFishu 2 years ago 2
really grat video!! it's so true -.-
I think the rule that you HAVE TO take a kerb in M-Dressages is gormless. why should horses have two iron rods in their mouth? they are so poor!! i hope the FEI changes some rules and i hope that the jurists observe better at "bad´" riders/people and judge them down! @all: Please do natural horsemanship and please ride without a bridle!! it's better for your horse! ;)
sry, my english isn't very googd, i hope you understand me ;)
regards, Smile6556
Smile6556 2 years ago
Th REALLY sad thing is that this isn't happening in just dressage or hunt seat. I have seen this in reining, western pleasure and other western events. People mistake this for "getting a horse light on the bit" or "getting his back up" . All they are doing is building in resistance and abrasiveness, just the OPPOSITE of what ALL proper riding, no matter the discipline, is all about. Thank you for posting not only the vidoe, but THE PHOTOS OF CORRECT DRESSAGE AND POSITION AT THE END !!!
purplesageequine 2 years ago
Great video! So true :)
YowArePoof1 2 years ago
You will do a better job of winning your argument with less artsy-fartsy manipulation of both image and music.
Emotionally manipulative, and therefore, IMO, propaganda, not documentary in nature.
aniranch 2 years ago
I dont doubt that thats true, but I am not exactly trying to win any argument. I am just putting my opinion out there, like almost everybody else who has a video on the subject on Youtube. I certainly didnt set out to make a documentary :)
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
I like it how drawing circles and lines on pictures is considered artsy-fartsy..
Maybe you added more foam, teeth, and even photoshopped the angle of the curbs.. added more shadow to the reins digging into the horse's neck, added more white to their eyes to show illusional distress, photoshopped a horse's rear end to a horse's front doing different gaits in every picture...
Clearly, the joy shown on Mr. SmileyFace McGoo's grin at 3:09 shouldn't be reckoned with.
canterpir0uette 2 years ago
Lol, you crack me up..Well, I dont remember manipulating the music haha. As far as Im aware, that was pretty well just stuck on there. Although, yes, its a little atmospheric, but it is tool.
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
Since I am a big Tool/APC fan, I know for a fact you did not splice or use the song in a different way. Without the music, to me, the images are depressing enough. Turn the sound off Aniranch and watch it again.
canterpir0uette 2 years ago
fab video :) think that Jaccko should watch this, and Anky !
lassiesuca 2 years ago
Thank you SO much for posting this video. It made me want to cry but also deeply angered me. I knew this type of riding was bad, but I was unaware of the extent. It was very useful to see the FEI statements as well as the angles of the horses' heads, necks, backs, and legs. Not to mention the riders' positions! Again, thank you - this is a shining light to the dressage community.
DreamAngel4990 2 years ago
thank you :)
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
this is so ture, but unfortunately, the FEI will do what the FEI wants to do. big flashy extensions and big flashy passages and piaffes are aesthetically pleasing and therefore monetarily pleasing. should it be all about selling dressage? oh hecks no. it should ONLY be about improving ourselves as horsepeople and our horses. and personally, they should do away with the double bridle requirement in GP. a good rider should be able to ride the upper movements with a simple snaffle
chrissyluvhorsey 2 years ago 2
The rolkur is pretty bad but it is much more painful when at the same time the horse is flexed to the side and this really damages his neck. But hey, what the heck they broke it anyway. Who are these FEI anyway? Whatever they are they are not much use.
keyses 2 years ago
the FEI = Internationa; Equestrian Federation (its actually french, but i cant speak or spell french). they are basically the 'god' of the horse world; they make all of the rules and regualtions that we have to follow. George Morris put it best when he said the FEI's motto is 'often in error, never in doubt'.
chrissyluvhorsey 2 years ago
can anybody help me? I am trying to get some video footage that I can download onto my computer so I can make another video...in particular I am after some stuff of totilas in passage and extended trot, among others. I not sure how to get stuff off youtube, or even if thats possible, do you just ask the person who uploaded the video? any advice would be very helpful :D
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
Good video. Join the facebook 'Blue Tongue video' pages where like minded individuals are pooling together knowledge and references and sheer numbers to make the FEI change their current stance on competitive dressage.
Make the FEI judges score according to the FEI dressage rules and most of the current *stars* of competitive dressage would be left without a hope of even qualifying for Novice level never mind GP! Get rid of rollkur by enforcing the rules already in place...
djnorris77 2 years ago
already on it :)
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
very well put together, makes the point very well indeed! let's hope they listen this time!
1clairemh 2 years ago
thanks
maletCHRISTOPHE 2 years ago
There is a very, very good book and DVD about Rollkur and other training methods and their effect on the horses health. It is called "If horses could speak" and the book is called "Tug of war". It written and produced by a veterinarian and some classical dressage riders. Really informative not only for dressage riders but I think something everyone should take a look at. It's here on YouTube as well.
ItsMe490 2 years ago
@crazydolls: Wonderful and very right comments. The thing is that the FEi decided that Dressage has to become more profitable. So they changed the rules from classical dressage to show dressage and create Showstars like they are appearing now. The aim of this Show Dressage is no longer the natural enhancement of the horses natural abilities but to make them spectacular for the audience. It's more circus than dressage. And you are right about the horses back when Rolkured.
ItsMe490 2 years ago
Best vid on rollkur ever. bt u featured ANDREAS HELGSTRAND on BLUE HORS MATINE and im almost positive he doesnt ues rollkur or any other from of banned ridding. in the pics he wasnt even in rollkur.
richmondkrn 2 years ago
as far as i am aware, yes he does. but in any case, matinee, as pretty and all as she was, and as much as I loved her, was not collected. and often behind the vertical.
trinalinalu 2 years ago
sorry, that was meant to come from me (refer previous comment)
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
I am sorry to say but Helgstrand does use Rollkur though maybe not as extensive as Anky. I saw him in Aachen with Matinee in 2006 warming up.
ItsMe490 2 years ago
That's ridiculous that some horses' careers only last five years. That should tell people that something's wrong. Plenty of horses are still sound and servicable well into their 20's. My trainer's 32 yo mare is still in good shape and is ridden regularly. It's all about how you maintain them.
Very nice video, btw. You should send it to the FEI.
VictorsChick4ever 2 years ago
Thank you. I think we need to start seeing that again. Horses approaching their 20's, sound happy and healthy and winning at the highest level. Not doing so at 8-9 and broken down by 15.
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
Exactly, just like Beezie's horse, Judgment. He's 17 or 18 now and still competing (and winning) against 8 year olds. That should send out a message to everyone who thinks it's normal to retire a horse at 8-10 years of age.
VictorsChick4ever 2 years ago
Excuse me, can you telle me what's the song ? (name of singer + title)
Thank you so much...
ness56500 2 years ago
Comment removed
ItsMe490 2 years ago
where did you get that information? I would quite like to see that because if they have, thats great! fingers crossed they follow through with it..
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
German press and FEI homepage. Of course now these rules have to be really implemented but we as the audience have a chance to force that. Extensive Rollkur is to be punished with yellow cards. Two yellow cards within a year lead to a suspension of the rider for two month.
ItsMe490 2 years ago
Hmm...its not exactly banned. And its not exactly going to stop the above featured in the video from happening because they will still go home and practise it. Its simply an actual penalty system to back the rules already in place. But once again its down to the opinion of the stewards...how long is too long? The steward in Odense would not yellow card Kittel because he was no worse than anyone else riding. Will they have the balls to stand up to a whole arena of idiots riding in hyperflexion?
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
okay, I am sorry to say but you are right. Unfortunatly. Today I say, start boycotting the FEI because today the legalized doping medications like bute and acc. This is the point where I can no longer defend my sport. It's time to get the hell out of the FEI. Sad.
ItsMe490 2 years ago
I want to know too! :D is there an article somewhere around the net I could read it from??
Jefrma 2 years ago
Absolutely brilliant video. Send this video to The FEI president Princess Haya IMMEDIATELY.
8 out of 10 riders on the international circuit ride with a double bridle as though they have only i rein in their hand, they either do not know the 2 bits each have a distinct function, or they they see it as a means to inflict force and pain to the horse. Bring back Reiner Klimke.
JUMPTHEGUNZZX 2 years ago
Thank you for posting. I wonder of any top level judges will read this? HOW can they sit there and continually reward the incorrect practices we can all see even at Olympic level....
idlesloth 2 years ago
5 1/2 YEARS?! WTF! Thats less than alot of RACEHORSES!!!
amyameliavec 2 years ago
Great video!!!
Can you make this video in german? I think the most of the german's english is not so good to understand all the comments!
That will be great!!! *g*
boeffelchen 2 years ago
I could have tried if my man hadnt destroyed all the photos when he was rearranging them on the computer but I cant find the complete vid saved anywhere on the computer now...sorry
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
Great video, thank you for making it! You read my mind with most of the material. LOVE the pics of Philippe Karl!!
DressageReine 2 years ago
Thank you! Very good video. I'll be sending this link to lots and lots of folks.
mscofie63 2 years ago
thank you for taking the time to put this video together.
marybirgit 2 years ago
You see a horse playing, in its natural state, do all the things a SRS horse does at times. I have never seen a horse hyperflex and make its tongue go numb when out playing with its friends. Good riding uses what the horse does naturally - bad riding makes the horse do unnatural things! This video sums up the worst riding so well - yet it is what we see at the top of FEI dressage. The FEI must now start to take action to stop this abuse of horses.
gentlehorseman 2 years ago
What will it take to make people listen? We must ALL address the FEI and also vote with feet and money. Contact the sponsors of the Roll-kur riders and tell them, why you will not buy their products!
comino302 2 years ago
entschuldigt die rechtschreib- und den groben grammatikfehler im letzten satz (totilas= entspanntes pferd) hab mich so in rage geschrieben ;)
tangoteti 2 years ago
boahr, langsam regt mich das echt auf... ich mein versteht mich nich falsch, ich finde rollkur absolut scheiße, aber muss man den jeden reiter, jedes pferd was an der spitze geht der rollkur bezichtigen...
ich meine martine, satchmo?? also ich seh in diesen strichen keine beweise... also man muss auch mal sehen aus welchem winkel die fotos geschossen sind...
tangoteti 2 years ago
oder "warum nicht"... habt ihr euch mal die anatomie des pferdes angesehn... den kann man nich anders einstellen... ich finds schade dass so große momente wie martine in aachen bei der weltmeisterschaft, wo allen der atem stillgestanden ist (ich war live dabei), hier in dieser form angezweifelt werden... sein größter erfolg in seiner karriere wird so vermaledeit... schämt euch!!
tangoteti 2 years ago
natürlich können die pferde mal hinter die senkrechten kommen... ich mein das is doch nich gleich tierquälerei...
also ich muss sagen das is traurig für die wirklich großen reiter, das ihre leistungen so angezweifelt werden...
und ich muss sagen ich bin wirklich beeindruckt von martine, totilas und co. auch wenn gerade der zweitere falsch gearbeitet wird... festzuhalten ist, dass er das mit abstand am entspanntensten pferde war. Punkt
tangoteti 2 years ago
Sickening and saddening..... thanks for sharing -
classicaljourney 2 years ago
What level is this? Please tell me these are people that don't know any better. No, that doesn't excuse anything in my mind, either. I would hope the riders would know better.
*happy that her pony trots along merrily on a floppy rein, is eager to go out and has been sound for 13 yrs*
kamikazedjali 2 years ago
Well, they should. A few prominent dressage riders are featured, some of the pics are from the olympics last year. So, mostly grand prix. I've seen it used on young horses as well, one shied and bolted madly every time the girl tried to use it. Poor kid was bawling her eyes out and the instructor was screaming her nut off. Over all, not a very happy picture, I thought.
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
What has become of horsemanship... :( There can't be much of a bond between horse and rider if this is what is in the show ring. I always pictured the peak of dressage to be the Spanish Riding School, so much for that ideal. The Lipizzaners (sp) always appear to be enjoying their work. These warmbloods? Poor horses.
My horse would likely do this if I asked him, but to what end? Is not a collected horse on a loose rein more smooth to ride? Does it not foster a better working relationship?
kamikazedjali 2 years ago
The likes of the Spanish Riding School is the height of dressage-you wouldn't see these horses performing high school movements, besides their generally lack luster piaffe and passage, because the simply are not collected enough to do it.
You could train your horse to do these things but you don't need hyperflexion to do it.
I read a post on another video saying that this exercise, for the purpose of dressage, was literally pointless as its not required to have a huge amount of felxion
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
in the middle neck region or even over the back. It's often used to establish control over flighty animals especially and found to "calm" such animals....I think that says a lot about it.
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
Thank you for the video. We must speak out or be silenced forever.
chfgypsy 2 years ago
I give you my full respect. Great video, with brilliant spotlight on the horrors top rytters bring with them.
What is the song you are using in the video called?
Lise91 2 years ago
it's 10,000 days, by tool. gotta love a bit of tool ;)
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
zever pure zever!!!
flickjuh 2 years ago
Rather than using human logic, a true Horseman approaches a horse with an attitude and communication techniques that make perfect sense to the horse. A horseman understands horse psychology, how horses think and behave, and is able to use this knowledge for relating to and developing a horse.
curtisshawk 2 years ago 4
Becoming a horseman means you take the time to understand horse psychology and use it for relating to and developing a horse. The dominant or 'alpha' horse is the most effective horse trainer ever born. So rather than using people logic, a true horseman approaches horses with the same attitude and communication techniques as another horse. Become a natural with horses through communication, knowledge and psychology rather than force, fear or intimidation.
curtisshawk 2 years ago 2
Thank you for this video, and for your and your commenter's concerns and outrage about the crimes being perpetuated against the noble sport of horsemanship.
nameofthepen 2 years ago
Thank you :)
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
and as we know Gribaldi threw more than one tantrum during his tests, refusing to piaffe and eventually decided to be too difficult to ride and keep sound and retired to stud as well. Maybe one day Totilas will do the same, but I guess only time will tell. If people looked up a few of Gals former rides, I dont think he would be such a little darling, however. All it takes is a little digging to find the truth
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
Great video :) The look on the horse's face at 2.30 is terrible, he looks like he's being attacked by a lion. I know what you mean about Totilas seeming perfect to the outside world, but he might well be the downfall of Rollkur. Everyone has seen what a laid back horse he is and if that changes, like it did with Gribaldi, people might sit up and take note that Rollkur isn't the way to go long term or short term.
FreakFaceofUtopia 2 years ago
The horse being attacked by a lion is Lingh. One of Gals former rides and a horse who lasted all of a year or so at the top of his game-and he was obviously good, claiming 2nd at the World Cup Dressage in 2004-strangely sold off after, like many others, disappearing from competition for a while. He is now retired to stud. Evidently this is not the only time he bolted in the arena, bolting being one of the primary reactions, or flight responses triggered by LDR. Not a happy camper.
thecrazydolls 2 years ago
Not only are they being rewarded with the championships, now we have broken through the "glass ceiling" of 90%--the scores keep getting crazier, never mind they shouldn't be getting the top scores AT ALL. (jmho)
dressageaddicted 2 years ago