Joseph Smith as My Example for Exploring the Book of Mormon

[TheSkepticChristian]

In other words, Anthon  lied many times.

He didn't translate anything.

[TheSkepticChristian]

Anyways, I still don't understand why you are doing this. why do you want to destroy our church, do you think that we are going to burn in hell if we don't leave our church??

You gave me no real reasons.

[TheSkepticChristian]

Trust me, FAIR and FARMS accept the Deutero-Isaiah, and accept the lack of archaeological evidence. Just ask the Backyardproffesor, he accepts the Deutero-Isaiah.

i am proud of FAIR and FARMS because they don't go against mainstream archeology, science, and scholarship, like you guys.

It's hard for you guys to accept that there is no archaeological evidence for the huge massive Exodus or Solomon's glorious empire .

[IExposeMormonism]

@TheSkepticChristian You better go back and read JS statement. That's the statement I'm quoting. It's JS claiming that Anthon said just what JS said. JS says Anthon confirms JS interpretation. Do you know what Anthon says? He says the characters were Greek and Roman and anything But Egyptian hieroglyphs. I've quoted JS Throughout our conversation. Perhaps I should post a video explaining it to your?

[TheSkepticChristian]

@IExposeMormonism Enough of your dishonesty

1) Martin said it (not Joseph): "Anthon stated that the translation was correct"

(JSH 1:64–65), Martin's account was included in the JSH.

2) If you read carefully Harris said that "Anthon stated," so according to Anthon, the translation was correct. Anthon recognized ancient characters, but wasn't able to translate.

3) Bias, just go study something useful, like organic evolution, science.

We Mormons are not going to burn in Hell.

[IExposeMormonism]

@TheSkepticChristian Enough of your ignorance. I have been quoting JS. JS gives the account based on Martin. Anthon gives an account. MH does not. If you have a direct account from MH let me know.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@IExposeMormonism So where did J.S said that Anthon really confirmed the translation??

If you read carefully (JSH 1:64-54) says: "Anton stated that the translation was correct", it was obviously correct, but he was lying in the sense that he didn't really know.

Anyways, I (or FAIR), we do not go against mainstream science, academic scholarship, and archaeology, like you guys. You reject organic evolution.

You can't even cite a single peer-reviewed Paper on a Respected Journal of History.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@IExposeMormonism Cont.. What ever, you didn't quote anything. Anton was capable of recognizing Egyptian Characters, not decipher them.

Yes Anton did confirm that they were Egyptian Characters, but he didn't really confirm if the translation was correct. Anton claimed that the translation was correct (and it was correct), but the liar didn't really know, like he claimed.

So I proven you wrong. (JSH 1:63-65): " Anton STATED that the translation was correct"

[IExposeMormonism]

@TheSkepticChristian No "Whatever". You can't insult, duck me nor your misunderstandings. I have quoted "something". I have quoted only JS here. JS said Anthon Confirmed the words.What I typed are accurate and are what JS said. You can't follow a simple line of argument nor example. You can jump around and misquote me and JS but I'll Always bring you back to your errors. Again JS alone is the only person I quoted. I did quote Anthon 1-2X. You're ThePeregrinatingPeculiarity.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@IExposeMormonism Where did you quote JS saying that Anthon really did infact confirm the translation?? quote him again.

Anyways, I think you are the one misunderstanding.

1) Anton was in fact able to confirm that the characters were Egyptian, but he was not able to decipher them.

2) Anton said (not Joseph Smith), Anton stated that the translation was correct. In reality he didn't know.

3) I have a lot of homework from my Physics class, why do you like to waste my time with pure nonsense??

[IExposeMormonism]

@TheSkepticChristian Where Did I quote JS? From the beginning, you ninny. go back and read the comments. JS said Anthon CONFIRMED the glyphs AND the interpretation. Anthon denies that he confirmed anything. JS produced a paper with "letters" on it. Even BYP has used it. JS says Anthon says the letters were "Syrriac...." etc. Anthon says they were Greek and Roman with modifications on them. He saw no hieroglyphs. I'm tired of repeating myself I should charge you $ for this

[TheSkepticChristian]

@IExposeMormonism Dude, you are confused.

Martin said that Anton said:

"he said that they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and he said they were true characters"

Anton was able to recognize the characters.

"Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct"

The translation was correct, but Anton didn't really verify it, he lied.

Those are the facts, you failed to quote, and you misunderstood everything I been telling you.

[IExposeMormonism]

@TheSkepticChristian I've quoted JS words through out. You're pitiful in your confusion. Martin left no record. JS did. I have faithfully quoted it. One more question: Since we "know" the letters are "Assyriac.." etc. And JS says "Mon" is Egyptian and means good.. and More or Mor is English. And thus Mormon means "more-good". English is c325AD. Egyptian, reformed or not, is much earlier. Further, there was never cultural contact. How did this linguistic Siamese Twin occur?

[TheSkepticChristian]

@IExposeMormonism Joseph wrote Martin's account, it was Martin that said that Anton said it.

Why can't you quote again when Joseph Smith supposedly said that Anton really did confirm the translation for a fact?

It was Anton himself, that said that the translation was correct, without actually knowing.

So can you quote please?? Just like I have quoted??

The "more-good" issue, has nothing to do with Anton.

LOL why do you want to destroy my church so bad??

You don't have rational reasons.

[IExposeMormonism]

@TheSkepticChristian You are such a perfect Mormon! I have quoted JS accurately from beginning to end. This is the end. Perhaps I'll make another video on this subject. You can read it yourself. Anthon Never said the correction was correct. He contradicts JS. And Martin just seems to keep his mouth shut. More-Good. Goes to Reformed Egyptian, why does JS say MORMON comes from the contraction of More, an English Word. It's JS own statement. Bye Bye. Ciao, Adieu.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@IExposeMormonism More-Good issue has nothing to do with Anthon, it's a totally different issue. We were talking about Anton.

You believe Anton told the truth, I believe he lied, yet Anton contradicts himself in two letters he send on this issue.

Anyways, you are confused, you probably don't understand what I am telling you.

Your bias will never allow you to publish a peer-reviewed Paper on History.

Bye Bye, just keep your anti-mormon nonsense out of politics, please.

[IExposeMormonism]

@TheSkepticChristian More-Good has everything to do with reformed Egyptian. When JS said "more",he introduced English into the equation. Along with "Arabic.....etc". You have been unable to follow a simple example using JS own words. You've misquoted him. I have accurately quoted him and corrected you. Now, if you'll forgive me, I must go. Bye, Ciao, Adios, Adieu.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@IExposeMormonism I proven that you are dishonest. You changed the issue for convenience. We were talking about Anton.

Look, I don't care if Mormon dosen't mean "More-Good". Joseph Smith was not perfect, he made mistakes, like all Biblical Prophets. As for Arabic..ect, Anton was able to recognized the Egyptian Characters, not decipher them. I quoted Joseph accuratly, you failed to completly quote him, and provide a referense.

Enough, I want peer-reviewed Papers.

[IExposeMormonism]

@TheSkepticChristian You alone changed the subject from reformed Egyptian to Organic Evolution. I have JS words and Anthons in front of me. I have not misquoted them. You are just wrong... JS states that Anthon DID corroborated the interpretation. Period Paragraph End of Report. Bye Adieu Ciao Adios

[TheSkepticChristian]

@IExposeMormonism Your accusations full of nonsense bored me, that's why I want to talk about organic evolution or the Big Bang, Science is cool

lol Come on, it's okay to admit that you were wrong.

Okay, I will say this one more time:

Joseph Smith recorded Martin's account. Martin said that ACCORDING to Anthon, the interpretation was correct. Anthon was able to confirm the characters, but he didn't really confirmed the translation like he claimed.

[TheSkepticChristian]

"this study finds a positive relationship between percent conservative Protestant and homicide rates"

Comparative efficacy of religious and nonreligious cognitive-behavioral therapy for the treatment of clinical depression in religious individuals.

Propst, L. Rebecca;Ostrom, Richard;Watkins, Philip;Dean, Terri;Mashburn, David

Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, Vol 60(1), Feb 1992, 94-103. doi: 10.1037/0022-006X.60.1.94

[TheSkepticChristian]

Mormon women are happier than non-Mormon women

"Expert: Mormon women less depressed," USA Today, 2 April 2004 (Associated Press article)

Active Mormons are 6 times less likely to commit suicide

SC Hilton, GW Fellingham, JL Lyon, "Suicide rates and religious commitment in young adult males in Utah," American Journal of Epidemiology 155/5 (1 March 2002): 413--419

[paulandlesson]

If you want to discredit the Mormon church, do not try to attack it. This gentleman has given time and effort in making these videos. All Mormons I know are very prosperous, friendly people. In fact, it seems to me the world would be a great place if people acted the way Mormons I know do. However, you could say the same thing about followers of Scientology. Start from the point of why would intelligents embrace these teachings. Then, one can ask the more important ?, why.

[TheSkepticChristian]

I didn't deny that D&C 132 mentions polygamy, I said that the verse 132:54 does not mention polygamy.

[TheSkepticChristian]

Check out the video I send you.

You will be surprised.

There is no reason to attack my religion.

I proven that my church is a good religion.

[IExposeMormonism]

JS said of Reformed Egyptian "by the power of God I translated the BofM from hieroglyphs, the knowledge of which had been Lost To The Ages". Question: Why then did JS send Martin to Anthon? Anthon couldn't read Hieroglyphs, only Champollion had done that. He taught no American that skill. If JS has Gods power, why go to a professor who Can't interpret Egyptian, much less Reformed Egyptian. JS says Anthon Confirmed Reformed Egyptian characters were also Chaldaic, Assyriac, Arabic. WHY oh Why?

[TheBackyardProfessor]

@IExposeMormonism

All of this is explored on the Neal A. Maxwell Institute's website. I suggest you read up on it all. There are many studies on this available for all, and it's free. Ignorance is no longer a viable alternative.....

[IExposeMormonism]

@TheBackyardProfessor Couldn't you give a simple answer? Anthon knew no Egyptian, JS did. Yet JS went to Anthon who, according to JS quoting Martin, explained the Egyptian Hieroglyphs. But all the Documentaries on this subject, on YT, say no one knew Egyptian then. And why test gods power of translation? If Anthon doesn't agree then he has not the power of God. And he couldn't translate Egyptian, in any case. Who ever said Anthon was a translator of Egyptian.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@IExposeMormonism Why do you keep fighting our church??

Is it because you believe that you are saving us from a eternal Hell or something??

Anyways, organic evolution is a science fact that you can't deny, every respected scientific society in the world agrees.

[IExposeMormonism]

@TheSkepticChristian How did you get from me and Mormonism to "Organic Evolution"? Are you saying the truth of Christianity is evolving? How would Truth evolve? 2nd, I asked a simple question: Why did JS , who by his own words states God's Power provided the translation, go to a man who could not read Egyptian for a confirmation of JS translation? And why is reformed Egyptian in "Syrriac, Chaldiac, Arabic"? When did Jews ever use such a combination, in or out of Judea?

[TheSkepticChristian]

@IExposeMormonism I am just checking out how rational you are. Do you accept organic evolution??

As for your question, I really see no point for that question. It's like asking why God allow this, or did this in the Old Testament.

Anyways, Jews did write in some time of reformed Egyptian, a Biblical scroll was found, and it was written in Egyptian, with Arabic. Something like that, just do you own research.

Why don't you read the Maxwell Institute??

[IExposeMormonism]

@TheSkepticChristian I'm not discussing evolution. I didn't ask why God allowed anything. I asked why JS Who "Had the power of God" went to Anthon for confirmation of something no one in the USA could translate. According to JS statement, Anthon confirmed the multiple alphabets and the interpretation of the glyphs. This confirms the "Reformed Egyptian" characters. Only Champollion knew Egyptian.Josiah Priest published 30+ pages of Champollion in 1830. But JS didn't know that

[TheSkepticChristian]

@IExposeMormonism

1) I really don't understand your question

2) Anton was a scholar, so he could tell that the characters were ancient. He didn't have to know reformed Egyptian, in order for him to realize that the letters were ancient.

3) Everything has it's purpose

4) Why do you want to destroy Mormonism??

5) We are Christians according to the definition in the Oxford dictionary. So by definition, we are Christians.

6) Be critical of your own beliefs instead.

[IExposeMormonism]

@TheSkepticChristian One person could translate Egyptian. Reformed or not. He was a poor peasant boy, uneducated but later tutored. His name was Champollion. JS says the glyphs And the translation were on the paper. JS says Anthon Confirmed what JS had written down. Anthon confirmed the letteres were "Arabic, Chaldiac, Syrriac, Egyptian" (JS spelling). Anthon could not interpret hieroglyphs. Anthon states the letters were Greek and Roman but not Egyptian, but no translation

[TheSkepticChristian]

@IExposeMormonism

1) I don't know who Champollion is, but he wouldn't be able to translate the BofM.

2) Mormons don't trust Anton

3) Why do you keep wasting your time, trying to destroy my religion?

There are better things to do, like charity or even preach about the New Testament.

You give priority to the words of Paul (which you misinterpret anyways), instead of the words of Jesus in the 4 gospels.

4) I can refute any argument you make against BofM or History of the church, anyways

[IExposeMormonism]

@TheSkepticChristian Champollion was an uneducated poor boy. Gven an education. He is known for One thing. in 1823, by all standards even today, he correctly translated Hieroglyphics. In 1830 Josiah Priest published "American Antiquities and Discoveries in the West". I posted it. 30 pages of Champollion correspondence are shown. 25,000 copies published by 1835.... JS said his angel said "All Christian creeds are anathema". I'm only protecting myself from that assault

[TheSkepticChristian]

@IExposeMormonism

So you protect yourself by attack our church?? Smith didn't waste all his time attacking other churches, or doctrines.

Why don't you protect yourself from Richard Dawkins?

Christian sects had hypocrites just like today. Joseph Smith was killed by religious people, just like in the Salem Witchtrials.

We are now in the 21st century, I just can't understand why you want to destroy my religion. We are not going to burn in Hell.

[IExposeMormonism]

@TheSkepticChristian Joseph Smith and Mormonism certainly did attack all of Christianity. It began with the angel. There is the Polygamy Revelation. It isn't just a calling to polygamy, it Simultaneously nullifies all non Mormon marriages and contracts. It defines innocent blood and threatens wives with death for non compliance. Further, it is a direct contributor to both the death of JS and the MMMassacre. Lastly, there is the Declaration of the Apostles to the World.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@IExposeMormonism We Mormons are not obsess with destroying a religion.

It was the protestants the persecuted Mormons. They killed and raped many Mormons in the 19th century, why???

MMM has nothing to do with Young or Smith, even some non-Mormon historians agree.

How can you say that polygamy was wrong, when your platonic god approved slavery and rape in you tampered Old Testament???

No women was physically hurt for refusing to enter polygamy, and there where no physical threats.

[IExposeMormonism]

@TheSkepticChristian Originally I only asked why JS sent glyphs and interpretations to Anthon.The foundations of Mormonism are as I've stated. Also, Rigdon issued an edict against Missourians before Boggs issued his . The MMMM has everything to the with the Mormon polygamy revelation. I've accurately described the polygamy revelation and it's implications. I'll let you go now.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@IExposeMormonism

You described nothing accurate, no women was physically harmed for refusing to practice polygamy, not threaten. There was no angel with a sword threat.

The suffering came when protestants intervene and invaded the Mormons.

B.Y. did not order MMM, nor has anything to do with the church.

'

[IExposeMormonism]

@TheSkepticChristian The polygamy revelation threatens Emma with death for non compliance. The obvious extension, and one made by all the hierarchy, is non compliance with the will of the lord (Brigham controlled it) is condemnation. You must have read some of the Journal and Discourses? Joseph Smith said an angel with a sword compelled him. And what I've typed prior, below, is all true.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@IExposeMormonismThe angel with a sword was going to destroy Joseph Smith, not his wives.

The polygamy revelation? DC 132:54 does not mention polygamy, and "destroyed" means in this context

(DC 132:26).

there is no "annihilation" in LDS doctrine

I proven you to be a liar.

I don't really care about the Journal of Discourses.

[IExposeMormonism]

@TheSkepticChristian Correct, an angel with a sword threatened JS. You can say D&C132 doesn't mention polygamy but all your doing is engaging in a form of obfuscation which you will not win with me. I never used the word annihilation. Brigham said Emma was condemned to hell. And if you read some books on 19th C Mormonism you might learn something. I'm not a liar and my questions are valid and to the point

[IExposeMormonism]

@TheSkepticChristian I started out asking about Anthon and Hieroglyphs. You brought this stuff up. Yes an angel threatened Joe with a sword. In the revelation Joe threatens Emma with death. You can deny 132 mentions polygamy but it's rather disingenuous. I never used "annihilation". I'm not a liar and all my points are useful and promote truth

[TheSkepticChristian]

@IExposeMormonism Sorry, but you don't even qualify for intellectual dishonesty, you only qualify for Newt Gingrich's dishonesty.

I already gave you the proper context of DC 132:54

Destroy means 132:26, especially DC 132:52,63

Scriptures almost never talk about literal death, but spiritual death.

sorry, but you are just promoting bigotry, irrational thinking, and bias propaganda.

No offense.

You believe that we will burn in Hell, if we don't leave our church.

[IExposeMormonism]

@TheSkepticChristian I never said any of the things you state. You did. Those are your presumptions.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@IExposeMormonism Again, D.C 132:54 is not talking about polygamy, the first verses are I think, but not this one.

Emma was not threaten if she would have refused to practice it. She would have been spiritually destroyed.

[IExposeMormonism]

@TheSkepticChristian You want to believe that you go right ahead. It means what it says. What do you think these phrases mean:: "they must be cut off", "Send them over the rim of the basin", "Trim your hair just below the ears". Are those references to haircuts or murder?

[TheSkepticChristian]

@IExposeMormonism "they must be cut off" from the presence of the Lord, it's clearly not talking about murder. Like in 2 Nephi 5:20

Anyways, why do you keep critiquing my religion??

Be critical of your own beliefs instead.

Or at least go study organic evolution, organic evolution is a science fact .

[IExposeMormonism]

@TheSkepticChristian "Anyways, why do you keep critiquing my religion??" Because one day I read the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Then I read some more books. And the more I read the more disturbing the information. What I've typed below, "The Declaration of the Apostles to the World", Rigdons threat to the nation, the polygamy revelation and its connection to blood atonement, the endowment ceremony and its oaths and other related issues left a bad taste in my mouth

[TheSkepticChristian]

@IExposeMormonism The MMM was a terrible and sad event, but it had nothing to with Young or the Church. Protestants have committed a lot of atrocities in USA history, let alone atrocities in your tampered Old Testament. I can cite peer-reviewed papers on RESPECTED Journals that prove that my religion is a good religion.

The church no longer practices polygamy, so your bias claim is irrelevant. I have Papers, you don't. I can prove that much church deserves more respect than your beliefs.

[IExposeMormonism]

@TheSkepticChristian If you don't practice polygamy tell the hierarchy to renounce D&C132. The wont. It's coming back. As for not having papers, I have over 350 original publications on the MMM and Mormonism in some respect. they date 1804 -c1920. Especially 1830-1878. The time of the True Restoration. I'm not going to focus on Jesuits or anything else. Here Am I

[TheSkepticChristian]

@IExposeMormonism If you don't practice Old Testament atrocities, why don't you renounce all the Old Testament?? lol

Anyways, the Church as clearly stated that any member practicing polygamy, is excommunicated.

I am not interested in your publication, I want peer-reviewed Papers on RESPECTED Journals of History. Do you have Papers to support your claims??? from any university around the world.

Did you take a look at the Papers I cited below, what can you tell me about that??

[IExposeMormonism]

@TheSkepticChristian I return now to Egyptian Hieroglyphs and Anthon, from whence I began. Champollion was and is the first to successfully translate hieroglyphs. Those following him are all in agreement and they don't agree with JS. Nor does Anthon, according to Anthon in his statement on the subject. Regardless of Anthon, Champollion and 185 yrs of interpretation put the "peer reviewed" papers issue squarely back in your corner. Match, Set, Game.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@IExposeMormonism Very nice, I am proud of you for sending me a Carl Sagan video. I ask for peer-reviewed Papers on a RESPECTED Journal of History. If you can't cite any, ti's because most of your claims about the history of my church are very bias.

Wait, you don't even know what a peer-reviewed paper is LOL.

I don't understand your argument, how does Champollion disagree with Joseph Smith?

Just because he translated hieroglyphs, it doesn't mean the he could translate the BofM.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@IExposeMormonism

Again very good for sending me a Carl Sagan video, I am proud of you now.

However, just because Champolion was able to translate Egyptian, it doesn't mean that he could translated the Book of Mormon. It's different.

As for your other claims, where are the Peer-reviewed Papers I asked you for??

On a RESPECTED Journal of history.

It seems that you can't back up your accusations on the history of my church, with peer-reviewed Papers. It means you are bias.

[IExposeMormonism]

@TheSkepticChristian Well, gee, thanks so much. Here's another Champollion watch?v=4XXEtie80V0 You might want at look at the earlier comments on the Egyptian hieroglyphs issue and resolve the BofM along the issues addressed here and in some of these Champollion documentaries. Again, I did post 30+ pages of Champollion from Josiah Priests 1830 "American Antiquities...."

[TheSkepticChristian]

@IExposeMormonism I suggest you watch more Carl Sagan videos, instead of wasting your time. Carl Sagan wouldn't waste his time on this nonsense.

If I understand what you are trying to say, yes Champollion was able to decipher Egyptian hieroglyphs, but Book of Mormon characters are not Egyptian hieroglyphs, they are different. Athon was able to tell if the BofM Characters were ancient, not necessarily translate it. Do you see the difference?

What do you think of this??

watch?v=GCTttoyQlgI

[IExposeMormonism]

@TheSkepticChristian I began by quoting JS words in regard to the glyphs and the interpretation of them. That's how this talk began. JS says Anthon confirmed the "Arabic, Syrriac etc glyphs and the interpretation" Those are JS own words. Do you read any of this? So, according to JS, Anthon confirmed 5 "glyphs", Arabic, Egyptian, etc and Anthon confirmed JS interpretation of those glyphs. JS says this. So you are wrong. Or JS is wrong.

[TheSkepticChristian]

@IExposeMormonism 1) Anthon was able to recognized Egyptian characters because he kept abreast of the latest in Egyptian scholarship

2) Anthon could not, and did not translate, nor did he really know if the translation was correct, as he claimed.

3) We don't know exactly what Anthon told Martin, because we have 3rd hand accounts years later.

4) Backyardprofesor, and all other LDS scholar do agree on many things, that the video presents. FARMS won't go against mainstream science or scholarship

[IExposeMormonism]

@TheSkepticChristian watch?v=GCTttoyQlgI .... You're Mormon. You have enough issues to deal with without becoming a victim of "Higher Criticism". I thew Issac Asimov in the trash 30 years ago. The arguments presented in those 9 videos does nothing to help prove the BofM true. If you believe those videos then why be a Mormon and live in the OT? Of what use are the OT rituals and symbols and laws to a Mormon? (They're of no use to Christians, right down to circumcisions)

[IExposeMormonism]

@TheSkepticChristian Here's something on hieroglyphics /watch?v=OJwaq7ciTiA

[ursula6418]

thanks again proff



[AprilSkye143]

I really liked how you explained Joseph's intellectual learning through opposition. I can't wait to study the Book of Mormon this way... I think, looking back, the only time I'm really learning anything is when I question what I see or come in contact with.

[EltonJThe]

Kerry, if I am ever offended, I have a problem.