yeah, i haven't checked out DCI since my last year in Cavs, but from what i've been told, Cavie Quadz look and sound a lot different now. in the 90's, i think the best quad lines came every 3 years. '90, '93 (both of those years are my personal favorites), '96, '99 (also the best "hang" of my years). Pat McGowen (Bunco) was center '88-'91, and he was a firm believer in the marcato thing. that technique was a Cavie Quadz trademark, for sure. i feel lucky that i got to experience that, for sure.
to answer your question about Ryan Parker: he marched '97 only, which was also my new guy year. he was on the space side middle (one off center on the side NOT by the snares). i was on the rip side middle. John Hadfield was center; i learned an incredible amount from him. awesome player and really humble guy to boot. '97 was loads of fun because the parts were tough and never got watered.
the above video is (left to right): dave schmuck, brian grekowicz, yours truly, brian spicer, louis kelly.
Man those guys ( Jason and Ryan) were lucky they got to learn from Mike Back when they were young. I think Tim Church also gave Ryan lessons. Tell you one thing though. as much as I " hated " this technique ( for myself) and had boughts with it. I wish Cavaliers tenor line was still using it.
It just does not feel like a Cavaliers drum line with out it.
i just realized...thought brian spicer was on the outside of the line starting in 99? next to you in 00 and cap in 01. oh well, you're the badass that was able to march these cats, not me
You gotta dig the moves though. I was taught at Spirit by Tim Church ( cavies tenor 92,93,94 ) I came from the Thurston style of playing and I did not really like the "through" the head playing he taught us ( more of Lief's style then Kuhn's ) but I learned a whole lot about how to move around efficiently , cross overs and height control.
fair enough... i actually learned how to play quadz from Leif during the cavie camps in the fall of '96. Leif had the most effecient quadz technique i have ever witnessed, and the largest, fullest sound on the instrument. quite impressive, and an great teacher to boot.
Although I learned a bit Tim and I were like water and oil so I switched to the snareline. He ended up standing in front of us a lot that summer even though we had a very competent snare tech ( taught by nat barouch, marched fl. wave and devils ) tim would stand infront of me and make me drum that tenot style on snare. it was not our snare lines technique although I did complain to the corps director about this I still did my job as a member my listening to his instruction and doing my job.
That got me inflamed tendons so bad that by mid tour I had to ice my wrist every night and by the end of tour there were days when I could not lift my wrist. I had no more control over my thumb. I had to stop drumming for 2 and 1/2months. After that period I made sure to stay away from that technique on kevlar and my hands have been great ever since. So a lesson here; please teach students to play this level ( tenor velocities) of this style on plastic not kevlar.
yeah, on kevlar, i could see how that technique could be tough. we used Renaissance heads on the quadz which really helped facilitate our more marcato technique. kevlar is a whole other animal. i actually auditioned for Cavs snareline in '96 and got tendonitis in my left hand from overdoing the marcato thing. (my high school line at the time, Prospect, played match grip, so i was a little in over my head...) quadz ended being a better fit for me, and i never looked back after '97.
i would encourage anyone out there in a position of drumline education to teach a uniform technique for your quadline that achieves the sound and look you are seeking. whether it's old or new, as long as it is safe on the hands and facilitates the music, you're gold! and don't worry about it affecting your musicianship. for example, those who successfully learn how to play jazz won't suddenly play a pop recording session all in a swing style, right? it's simply a different musical muscle... :)
in reality, it was a pretty comfortable way to play. granted, this type of playing would never translate to something like playing jazz drumset, but that wasn't the point. the point was to achieve a uniform sound and look. (drum corps is equally visual and aural...) our arms moved the shortest distance to change drums, and our vertical strokes were NEVER to be compromised by this. parts were created to achieve the sonic and visual effects we desired. the technique you see aided us in that.
our quad technique when i marched ('97-'00) was based on a similar technique of the early 90's, which hinged greatly on the separation of vertical strokes (for making sound) and horizontal strokes, for getting around the drums. there is an inherent "marcato"-ness in our playing because it was our belief that no matter what drum you were on, whether crossed, uncrossed, stationary, or continually moving, the sound quality could not and should not diminish. some people call this pounding, but...
hello all. my name is paul, and i am actually the center tenor in the above video. i haven't really thought about the drum corps world in quite awhile, but i was intrigued when i came across this old footage of the lines i used to march in. i just wanted to clarify a couple things for those of you who have been enjoying discussing and speculating about our technique in this thread.
first off, i will say that no one quad technique defines the epitome of playing the instrument. more to come...
To your other misunderstanding....We used enough arm to get the notes out...that's it. There was never any attempt to use say less arm than any body and I have to agree with bassque...three years of the best drumming in dci aint to bad
I guess you don't understand that the drums that cadets and bd play are made of maple and the cavies drums circa brett khun are bade of birch. So you could tune the drums in this vid any way you want and they will still sound short and stacatto where as the maple will sound ringy and resonant circa 93 star. If the cadets where to indeed play this set of drums they would get the same sound. Do you really think the drum know how it is being hit????? it is a stick on a drum head that's it.
I disagree with what you say in the latter part of your post. Lines nowadays that use a more "relaxed" style do so to in part because of writing. If you look at lines like SCV 1999-2005, or Cavaliers 2006 and 2007, you will see that their writing is much more groove-oriented. It goes along with the philosophy as well. In this sense, lines today aren't "slacking" for the sake of comfort and individuality, as you say, but more so to benefit the line as musicians.
This controlled, staccato style works well for their writing, which consists primarily of fast roll figures. It all comes down to how you'd rather instruct: define every single height, so every player know how to play a part? Or teach a more basic musical understanding, and leave more responsibility to the player's intuition? I feel that the second choice benefits the players as musicians much more.
Though, I do agree that complete, strict uniformity looks pretty impressive. :)
Personally, I feel that when the drumline activity is at such a high level (ie DCI top 12), benefits to individual musicianship should take a 2nd to uniformity(ie playing clean).
Being around the activity back when the Cavies were playing this way, I disliked how much flack they got for simply doing things differently. But I did like seeing them rewarded for it in 91, 92, 93, 95, 99, and 2000.
I see where you're coming from. And like I said, it all depends on personal philosophy. I think that drum corps should be utilized as a learning experience as much as possible, so teaching individual musicianship is very important to me. Then again, being that I'm a current marching member, the dynamic of the activity nowadays is much different than it was in the 90s.
totally agree. thats why drum corps pretty much as a whhole got lame starting in 98with the exception of cavies. who really started to play goood beefy shit but still execute it(book) well. even diffult music and drill.
we(Cadets) won drums in 2001 for being piss clean but we didnt play anything difficult. our book was watered down by the 3 camp. well before we even got to everydays. but we(cadets) was watered down across the board 2001 and still
have you learned cavies technique? have you been on tour to see their line for the whole season while competing against them?
why do you think their touch sounds light and crisp? b/c the technique isnt for playing through the head. its for playing stacato and pressing how notes while being relaxed.
well then you should know first hand. you cannot play through the head with yalls technique. or kuhns rather like you can Colin Mcnutt, Beddis, Aungst, or Renniccks techniques. and a few others
little ditty nicely thrown in at 0:35
MegaGamingTrailers 9 months ago
yeah, i haven't checked out DCI since my last year in Cavs, but from what i've been told, Cavie Quadz look and sound a lot different now. in the 90's, i think the best quad lines came every 3 years. '90, '93 (both of those years are my personal favorites), '96, '99 (also the best "hang" of my years). Pat McGowen (Bunco) was center '88-'91, and he was a firm believer in the marcato thing. that technique was a Cavie Quadz trademark, for sure. i feel lucky that i got to experience that, for sure.
pmutzabaugh 3 years ago
marcato thing?
yeahyeahyeahyeahya 3 years ago
dude i worship cavies tenor line from your days up to '04. that style of playing has got to be my absolute favorite.
ecafsinep 3 years ago
Was this titled "Those Nutty Madrigals"?
dfisk79 2 years ago
to answer your question about Ryan Parker: he marched '97 only, which was also my new guy year. he was on the space side middle (one off center on the side NOT by the snares). i was on the rip side middle. John Hadfield was center; i learned an incredible amount from him. awesome player and really humble guy to boot. '97 was loads of fun because the parts were tough and never got watered.
the above video is (left to right): dave schmuck, brian grekowicz, yours truly, brian spicer, louis kelly.
pmutzabaugh 3 years ago
Man those guys ( Jason and Ryan) were lucky they got to learn from Mike Back when they were young. I think Tim Church also gave Ryan lessons. Tell you one thing though. as much as I " hated " this technique ( for myself) and had boughts with it. I wish Cavaliers tenor line was still using it.
It just does not feel like a Cavaliers drum line with out it.
soundquality 3 years ago
I was lucky enough to have Louis as my tenor instructor for my indoor line this year. He told me all kinds of great stories about you.
doublebassheeltoe 2 years ago
i just realized...thought brian spicer was on the outside of the line starting in 99? next to you in 00 and cap in 01. oh well, you're the badass that was able to march these cats, not me
ecafsinep 2 years ago
You gotta dig the moves though. I was taught at Spirit by Tim Church ( cavies tenor 92,93,94 ) I came from the Thurston style of playing and I did not really like the "through" the head playing he taught us ( more of Lief's style then Kuhn's ) but I learned a whole lot about how to move around efficiently , cross overs and height control.
It really took my drumming to another level
soundquality 3 years ago
fair enough... i actually learned how to play quadz from Leif during the cavie camps in the fall of '96. Leif had the most effecient quadz technique i have ever witnessed, and the largest, fullest sound on the instrument. quite impressive, and an great teacher to boot.
pmutzabaugh 3 years ago
Hey was Ryan Parker in that tenor line? ( his brother Jason was in the snareline in 97 or 98). I marched with those guys at Spirit.
soundquality 3 years ago
Although I learned a bit Tim and I were like water and oil so I switched to the snareline. He ended up standing in front of us a lot that summer even though we had a very competent snare tech ( taught by nat barouch, marched fl. wave and devils ) tim would stand infront of me and make me drum that tenot style on snare. it was not our snare lines technique although I did complain to the corps director about this I still did my job as a member my listening to his instruction and doing my job.
soundquality 3 years ago
That got me inflamed tendons so bad that by mid tour I had to ice my wrist every night and by the end of tour there were days when I could not lift my wrist. I had no more control over my thumb. I had to stop drumming for 2 and 1/2months. After that period I made sure to stay away from that technique on kevlar and my hands have been great ever since. So a lesson here; please teach students to play this level ( tenor velocities) of this style on plastic not kevlar.
soundquality 3 years ago
yeah, on kevlar, i could see how that technique could be tough. we used Renaissance heads on the quadz which really helped facilitate our more marcato technique. kevlar is a whole other animal. i actually auditioned for Cavs snareline in '96 and got tendonitis in my left hand from overdoing the marcato thing. (my high school line at the time, Prospect, played match grip, so i was a little in over my head...) quadz ended being a better fit for me, and i never looked back after '97.
pmutzabaugh 3 years ago
i would encourage anyone out there in a position of drumline education to teach a uniform technique for your quadline that achieves the sound and look you are seeking. whether it's old or new, as long as it is safe on the hands and facilitates the music, you're gold! and don't worry about it affecting your musicianship. for example, those who successfully learn how to play jazz won't suddenly play a pop recording session all in a swing style, right? it's simply a different musical muscle... :)
pmutzabaugh 3 years ago
in reality, it was a pretty comfortable way to play. granted, this type of playing would never translate to something like playing jazz drumset, but that wasn't the point. the point was to achieve a uniform sound and look. (drum corps is equally visual and aural...) our arms moved the shortest distance to change drums, and our vertical strokes were NEVER to be compromised by this. parts were created to achieve the sonic and visual effects we desired. the technique you see aided us in that.
pmutzabaugh 3 years ago
our quad technique when i marched ('97-'00) was based on a similar technique of the early 90's, which hinged greatly on the separation of vertical strokes (for making sound) and horizontal strokes, for getting around the drums. there is an inherent "marcato"-ness in our playing because it was our belief that no matter what drum you were on, whether crossed, uncrossed, stationary, or continually moving, the sound quality could not and should not diminish. some people call this pounding, but...
pmutzabaugh 3 years ago
hello all. my name is paul, and i am actually the center tenor in the above video. i haven't really thought about the drum corps world in quite awhile, but i was intrigued when i came across this old footage of the lines i used to march in. i just wanted to clarify a couple things for those of you who have been enjoying discussing and speculating about our technique in this thread.
first off, i will say that no one quad technique defines the epitome of playing the instrument. more to come...
pmutzabaugh 3 years ago
if that IS in fact blaine locheed, he just became my school's new percussion director
SnareKidJoel 3 years ago
is that bearded beast in the white shirt blaine locheed?
marky898907 3 years ago
To your other misunderstanding....We used enough arm to get the notes out...that's it. There was never any attempt to use say less arm than any body and I have to agree with bassque...three years of the best drumming in dci aint to bad
cpdrumming 4 years ago
I guess you don't understand that the drums that cadets and bd play are made of maple and the cavies drums circa brett khun are bade of birch. So you could tune the drums in this vid any way you want and they will still sound short and stacatto where as the maple will sound ringy and resonant circa 93 star. If the cadets where to indeed play this set of drums they would get the same sound. Do you really think the drum know how it is being hit????? it is a stick on a drum head that's it.
cpdrumming 4 years ago
This quadline has two things most quadlines never achieve...complete control, and complete uniformity.
You can tell that every stroke height and visual was STRICTLY defined.
And that's what made the 90's cavie lines great...they didn't slack for the sake of "comfort" or "individuality"
And definitely weren't wimps playing with aluminum shaft mallets.
And there is no rule that drumming can only sound good if it's legato...open your mind...learn all styles.
Quadasaurus 4 years ago
I disagree with what you say in the latter part of your post. Lines nowadays that use a more "relaxed" style do so to in part because of writing. If you look at lines like SCV 1999-2005, or Cavaliers 2006 and 2007, you will see that their writing is much more groove-oriented. It goes along with the philosophy as well. In this sense, lines today aren't "slacking" for the sake of comfort and individuality, as you say, but more so to benefit the line as musicians.
hybridjohnny 4 years ago
This controlled, staccato style works well for their writing, which consists primarily of fast roll figures. It all comes down to how you'd rather instruct: define every single height, so every player know how to play a part? Or teach a more basic musical understanding, and leave more responsibility to the player's intuition? I feel that the second choice benefits the players as musicians much more.
Though, I do agree that complete, strict uniformity looks pretty impressive. :)
hybridjohnny 4 years ago
Personally, I feel that when the drumline activity is at such a high level (ie DCI top 12), benefits to individual musicianship should take a 2nd to uniformity(ie playing clean).
Being around the activity back when the Cavies were playing this way, I disliked how much flack they got for simply doing things differently. But I did like seeing them rewarded for it in 91, 92, 93, 95, 99, and 2000.
Quadasaurus 4 years ago
I see where you're coming from. And like I said, it all depends on personal philosophy. I think that drum corps should be utilized as a learning experience as much as possible, so teaching individual musicianship is very important to me. Then again, being that I'm a current marching member, the dynamic of the activity nowadays is much different than it was in the 90s.
hybridjohnny 4 years ago
totally agree. thats why drum corps pretty much as a whhole got lame starting in 98with the exception of cavies. who really started to play goood beefy shit but still execute it(book) well. even diffult music and drill.
we(Cadets) won drums in 2001 for being piss clean but we didnt play anything difficult. our book was watered down by the 3 camp. well before we even got to everydays. but we(cadets) was watered down across the board 2001 and still
the best years of drum corps is pre 98
sycomantz 3 years ago
the more difficult. the more you learn
sycomantz 3 years ago
"And that's what made the 90's cavie lines great...they didn't slack for the sake of "comfort" or "individuality"
And definitely weren't wimps playing with aluminum shaft mallets."
Working harder, not smarter. Makes sense to me!
jjmachuca 4 years ago
you are wrong b/c while cavies technique allow you to press out rolls fairly easily. you cant play through the head so there no power.
but your statement couldnt be anymore wrong and ignorant as i marched drum corps cadets and magic
different technique are for different styles of writting, playing and sound quality
sycomantz 4 years ago
"while cavies technique allow you to press out rolls fairly easily. you cant play through the head so there no power."
Based on what? Any video from 2005 on back as far as you care to go seems to say otherwise.
Cavalier2123 3 years ago
have you learned cavies technique? have you been on tour to see their line for the whole season while competing against them?
why do you think their touch sounds light and crisp? b/c the technique isnt for playing through the head. its for playing stacato and pressing how notes while being relaxed.
you cant play cavies style being tense.
sycomantz 3 years ago
"have you learned cavies technique? have you been on tour to see their line for the whole season while competing against them?"
I marched there.
Cavalier2123 3 years ago
well then you should know first hand. you cannot play through the head with yalls technique. or kuhns rather like you can Colin Mcnutt, Beddis, Aungst, or Renniccks techniques. and a few others
sycomantz 3 years ago
Good enough for 2nd in drums that year, 1st the next two years.
bassque 4 years ago
Everything about these 90's lines was unique, and it's what made me want to audition there.
Cavalier2123 4 years ago
Agreed. Bret Kuhn's old technique was very "interesting."
BstandsforZACH 4 years ago
that is alot of wrist... its interesting.
austinj86 4 years ago
What....you mean clean and with a good sound?
miladu 4 years ago