The Origin of Khmer and Thai Numbers​​​​​​ លេខ​ខ្មែរ

[khm3r4luv2]

Great job, guys. Keep up.

[TheSkylinesWorldHD]

Great video im from philippines i Love indichina culture i think Thai number very nice but khmer is not best Thai numbe betther than khmer number love it thai number and thai cultuer dance

[WCSworld]

@TheSkylinesWorldHD Yes i go to thai in oc 2010 to bangkok thailandes it so nice Grand palace golden and Thai cuture so nice i love thai number it very amazing i think number thai betther than khmer

[siamsweeds]

@TheSkylinesWorldHD Thank you the ture history of thai number orgin in 4 th century in Lopuri and davaravati cuture thai number is the first number in indo cina thai coppy number from word india and srilanka befor 8th century khmer origin to Offend thailand berning lopuri and land of thailand  and khmer coppy thai number and cuture ,but in 15 th century the Ayutaya Empire the copitalcity of siam thailand come to the war with khmer and thai win

[TheSkylinesWorldHD]

@siamsweeds wow thank you for true information thai number betther than khmer

[TheChamaemelum]

Thank you in formation Thai number betther than khmer that true

[ToThaiignorantsandCo]

@TheChamaemelum

You are so ignorant about history. How can Thai numbers better than Khmer if Thai numbers are 100% Khmer.

[Khmer96pride]

great video thank you !

[TheSkylinesWorldHD]

@Khmer96pridethank you yes i love video thai number Great amazing and thai number betther than khmer

Thai culture nice same Egypt the best number for Thailand im from philippines mamabuhe

[tevanne08]

its not Jen Cajiv!

you spelled it wrong, and south vietnam was already apart of cambodia during the time

[themonkboy123]

thanks for teaching me about our culture!!

[Angkorianna]

brooklynmonk1: WHO CAME TO CAMBODIA FIRST? CHINESE OR THAI? Do you want me to explain to you step by step or can you use your BRAIN from here? Most Khmers think foreigners are always right, but things have changed. Nobody knows history more than the people themselves. Thank you, have a nice. day.

[brooklynmonk1]

@Angkorianna Since the people largely can't read, they absolutely don't know the history. if you are asking me who came to cambodia first, clearly the Khmer did. but this is completely irrelevant to this discussion. at no point did i claim that the Thais were in cambodia before the khmers. i have, at times, claimed that thailand and vietnam have more or less dominated cambodia consistently, since the end of teh 13th century. but khmers were first.

[KhmerSanjose]

The real word is Mon-Khmer but  can be said in short as "Mon." They are the ancestors of Khmers.

[sabaikhmer]

@KhmerSanjose Mon and Khmer are totally different ethnicity. They are not our ancestor, the Malay and Java are probably the real ancestors.

[Angkorianna]

Khmer Sanjose is right. Mons are the ancestors of Khmers. I checked the facts.

[sabaikhmer]

@Angkorianna any prove?

[Angkorianna]

@sabaikhmer Google Mon-khmers and see who they are. "Mon" means "first" or "before" in Khmer language.

It means the ancestors of Khmers.

[sabaikhmer]

@Angkorianna Mon-khmer is refer to language not people and you also are misunderstanding the meaning as well. Mon is mon, spelling in Khmer as មន not មុន.

[Angkorianna]

@sabaikhmer The people that speak Khmer were known as the Khmer. Mon-Khmers mean the "first" Khmers. In other words the ancestors of Khmers.

[sabaikhmer]

@Angkorianna Like i said Mon-Khmer are refer to language family not people. There are about 150 languages spoken in this family, largely by Mon and Khmer. The word "Mon-Khmer" was given by the Europeans to tell which language should be in this family. it kind similar to the word "Indochina" but in this term is to describe our region. In khmer, we say Khmer-Mon because we are the largest spoken language in this family so we put Khmer first then Mon. and again Mon has no meaning in Khmer.

[Angkorianna]

@sabaikhmer There is no Khmer-Mon. It is Mon-Khmer. It means "first" Khmers. The language is described as Mon-Khmer family because it is spoken by Mon-Khmers, the people.

[sabaikhmer]

@Angkorianna read Khmer history they said Khmer-Mon not Mon-Khmer.

[brooklynmonk1]

@sabaikhmer No, Khmer is not the largest language in the Mon-Khmer family, Vietnamese is. There are nearly five times as many speakers of Vietnamese as there are Khmers. Khmer and Vietnamese are the only large groups of national languages in the family. All of the others are tribal people, like the Kuy.

[sabaikhmer]

@brooklynmonk1 Vietnamese is still a mysterious language to Mon-Khmer family. Back then, it was called as Mon-Annam(Vietnamese) or Mon-Khmer-Annam. Since there were a lot of discussions, saying that the Viet language should belong to Mon-Khmer or Tai language family, it ended up, only Mon-Khmer. And like i said the word Mon is represent the Mon people not meaning first. Mon was a great civilization just like the Khmer. In khmer history, Mons were a close friend to Khmer during the Khmer empire.

[brooklynmonk1]

@sabaikhmer True, Vietnamese is gramatically very different from khmer and it is tonal. also interesting, khmer is the only non-tonal language (major language) in the region. True also about the Monk kingdom predating the khmer Kingdom.

[brooklynmonk1]

@sabaikhmer In English Mon-KHmer is correct. The reason it is Khmer-Mon in Khmer is because mon, meaning first, is an adjective, so it goes after the noun. But in English, adjectives come first, so mon-khmer.

[brooklynmonk1]

@Angkorianna Ni, the connectionn between the khmer word "mon" meaning first, and the Mon ethnic group is coincidence. the Mon are a separate ethnic group, living in Mon State of Burma. They speak the Monk language. The Khmer speak a Mon Khmer language, as do the Mon, Vietnamese, Wa. Just to be clear, the Khmer are distantly related to the Mon but the Mon are not the origin of the Khmer people. if you have a reference source which says otherwise, please send it to me, because this how we learn.

[brooklynmonk1]

@Angkorianna Just to be clear, the Khmer are distantly related to the Mon but the Mon are not the origin of the Khmer people. if you have a reference source which says otherwise, please send it to me, because this how we learn.

[brooklynmonk1]

@sabaikhmer Khmer is a Mon-Khmer language. this is a fact, go look it up. Next, the Monk are a separate ethnic group which live in Burma, BUT they also speak a Mon-Khmer language. other Mon-Khmer languages include Vietnamese and Wa.

[KhmerWarrior7]

@KhmerSanjose

The ancestors of Khmer are Phnong ភ្នង living in Ratanak Kiri, Mondol Kiri and Steung Treng today. All Khmer Kings wear Peung the Phnong dress and Khmer King Jayavarman VII carved the pictures of Phnong culture Chak Krabei Pheuk Sra ចាក់ក្របីផឺកស្រា on Bayon. To say Khmer influenced Indian is wrong, my great great father was Indian so I don't influence Indian but I owned Indian heritage. Khmer Kings Kaudinya and Khmer King Kambu were Indian and married to native so named as Khmer.

[KhmerSanjose]

As presented in the video, Khmer's civilization began in the 1st century and Thai's in the 13th century. Who came first? and who influenced whom? Don't be a follower! Be a critical thinker. What does "SAM, SEI, HA, HOK, JET, PET, KOW," mean in Thai and in Khmer? I challenge you to ask any Thai and Khmer for their meanings. U will be enlightened that these words sound exactly alike but have different meanings in Thai and Khmer. In Khmer they mean, 30 to 90. But in Thai they mean 3-9

[sabaikhmer]

@KhmerSanjose it doesnt matter who cam first, we all influenced on each other. After the fall of Angkor, Who became the power Kingdom in SEA? It's the Siam. In 16th century, We was so weak and living under Siam. You can see cleanly that we got the Theravada Buddhism from Siam. And if you go back a few 100 years ago, you can see that our Kings went to Siam(Bangkok) to study, King Ang Duong, Sisowath, Norodom all educated from there and adopted a lot Thai culture as well.

[brooklynmonk1]

@sabaikhmer King Norodom, Sihanouk's grand father, was half Thai. He lived his entire life in Thailand, until he assumed the throne. when he was enthroned in Cambodian, his official title was viceroy of Siam because cambodia was primarily under Thai and vietnamese control. The country only gained independence from the two big neighbors when Norodom signed the agreement with France, making Cambodia a French colony.

[brooklynmonk1]

@KhmerSanjose America didnt come until the 18th century, so did Khmer influence America, or the other way around? It doesnt always follow that the earlier society influenced the later one.

[Angkorianna]

@brooklynmonk1 Khmers didn't influence America, but the Romans and the English did just like the Khmers influenced the Thais.

[brooklynmonk1]

@Angkorianna Exactly the Romans came first and influenced america. BUT do we credit the romans or the americans with having invented the space shuttle, the assembly line, the steam engine, the laser...by your logic, we should credit all of these inventions to the romans because they came first.

[brooklynmonk1]

@KhmerSanjose SAM, SEI, HA, HOK, JET, PET, KOW," have no menaing in Khmer, whatsoever. The words sam-sep, sei-sep and so on me exactly what they mean in Thai. The fact that in spoken khmer you often drop the "sep" isnt proof of anything but laziness, which occurs in all languages. it is called truncation. but it only affects pronunciation, not meaning or writing. Am i the only trained linguist on this thread?

[Angkorianna]

@brooklynmonk1 if you think sam,sei,ha,hok,jet,pet,kow have no meaning in Khmers, that means you don't know Khmer language at all. You probably know a few words of Khmers and think you can analyze Khmer language. You are making a fool of yourself.

[brooklynmonk1]

@Angkorianna As a linguist i am trained to analyze the language, which is almost independent of my own mastery of it. i don't speak Khmer exceptionally well. but i am trained in analysis. once again, i could ask yuo if you speak Thai at all, but you always refuse to answer. i speak both languages. i already explained about truncation, meaning that in informal spoken language certain syllables are left out, for example sam-sep becomes sam.

[Angkorianna]

@brooklynmonk1 U said yourself, u can't speak Khmer well. That means you're not qualified to analyze Khmer language. U can't just take the formal Khmer and analyze it. You have to look at the integrity of the Khmer language, the whole language itself. I noticed that even Khmer dictionary dont include all the informal khmer in the dictionary. It needs to be upgraded. American dictionary is upgraded all the time because when it was written, it didn't include some of the words that the people use.

[sabaikhmer]

@brooklynmonk1 I really appreciated your hard work for explaining all of it, and it's hard to change people point of views. I'm with you already about the 30-90 are borrowed from Thai.

[Angkorianna]

@sabaikhmer Even though a lot of Khmers are not educated in school, it doesn't mean they are stupid. We stay

quiet; it doesn't mean we don't know anything. We know you are not Khmer, and stop trying too hard pretending to be a Khmer person. You need to learn more about Khmer culture and you will understand how Khmer pple think.

[sabaikhmer]

@Angkorianna One i never said that Khmer people are stupid. Also, If im different than other khmers, you think pretending? you have your own point of view and i have mine.

[tevanne08]

@brooklynmonk1 lol i agree



[KhmerSanjose]

The purpose of this video presentation is to provide clarification on the subject of The Origin of Khmer and Thai Numbers. Great efforts were made to ensure that personal biases and prejudices are excluded. Our featured presentation is based solely on the internationally accepted published accounts of historical events and not on individual or collective opinions. That is precisely why we provide our viewers with references which can be used to collaborate and validate our presentation.

[brooklynmonk1]

@KhmerSanjose You quoted Digging for the Truth episode about Angkor. I was an expert adviser on that episode, and in fact, i appear in the episode talking about the history of Khmer martial arts. You also quote Daryl Collins. I have been on a lecture card with him, where I was the expert on modern Khmer history, twentieth-century. i also consulted with him for my book, Re-Discovering the Khmers.

[brooklynmonk1]

Respond to this video... I find it unlikely that you consulted with Daryl or any expert for this video. if you did, please provide names. Next, did any of them say, "The Khmer langugae can't be analyzed"? or did they agree with you that Khmer numbers in no way reflect the thinking or culture of the people and that they exist in a bubble with no reasonable origin?

[KhmerSanjose]

In addition to performing our own research, we also consulted INTELLECTUALS and HISTORIANS to ensure that our video presentation is balanced and factual. Now, if you feel that any part of these segments is biased, please share it with us and include references to substantiate your point of views. You personal opinions do not constitute facts.

[sabaikhmer]

@KhmerSanjose one of your statement at 9:44 is completely false. When the Tai(thai) people resided to SEA. They were influenced by the Mon not Khmer nor Chinese traders. Mon was known for bringing Theravada Buddhism to the mainland of SEA. that why Sukhothai is a Theravada Buddhism kingdom not Hinduism or Mahayana Buddhism like us.it's up until the Ayutthaya period, this is when the Khmer really influenced on Siam(Siem). U need more info for the Thai side if u want people to believe your video.

[brooklynmonk1]

@KhmerSanjose In the video you said that Khmer did not use base 5, base 10 or base 20 counting system. But they actually used a mix of the three. Where did you find an expert or some publication that supports your opinion? And why did you reject all known and published experts who agree that cambodia used three bases for their counting system?

[brooklynmonk1]

@KhmerSanjose you obviously didn't consult with any linguists because all of your linguistic reasoning is laughable. What sorts of experts did you consult with?

[yaohonisgood]

There certainly are facts in this video but some of the other things seem a little biased. I liked brooklynmonk1's comment about linguistics. He/She is absolutely right in that you 'can' analyze the meanings of the words and numbers. I agree that there is a lot of Khmer influence in the southeast asian peninsula but there were other ethnic groups that have been present for thousands of years (the Khmu and the Mon). Not too many of my Khmer friends know about those groups at all.

[brooklynmonk1]

4:40 You absolutely can analyze the meanings of the words and numbers. That is called linguistics, with various sub disciplines in psycho and cultural linguistics. the reason the numbers repeat after five is because cambodia originally used a base five counting system.

[brooklynmonk1]

@brooklynmonk1 Khmer originally used two counting systems, base 5 and base 20. this is why twenty is mpai or muay pai, it was one unit of twenty. you can see counting systems on angkor wat which reflect this, where forty is expresed as 20 with two strokes above it.

[brooklynmonk1]

@brooklynmonk1 30 in khmer is definitely sam sep. i know when you talk fast, you asperate the sep, but the khmer word for thirty is definitely sam sep.

[brooklynmonk1]

@brooklynmonk16:34 the tens, 30-90 are base ten. Khmer uses three bases in its counting system.

[brooklynmonk1]

@brooklynmonk1 6:59 I agree that mouy pai doesnt imply two times ten. it does, however, mean one set of twenty, which is further proof of an earlier base twenty counting system.

[brooklynmonk1]

@brooklynmonk1 6:53 sam sep absolutely implies three times ten. this is the counting system which originated in southern china, where sam is three and sep is ten. Dop as ten is from a much earlier, unrelated chinaese counting system.

[brooklynmonk1]

@brooklynmonk1 7:09 Michael and John both come from the Bible, which is why those names are universal throughout western countries and languages. If you go to the Middle East, you will find some Hebrew or pre- Arabic origin of these names.

[brooklynmonk1]

@brooklynmonk1 7:41 the big tens, 100,1000, 10,000 and so on are similar to Thai, because they come from the same place, in southern China.

[SilentStorm550]

Excellent 12 minutes of Khmer history! Very informative and great analysis!!

[sabaikhmer]

I believe the number 30,40,50,60,70, 80 and 90 might be borrowed from Thai. For example, 30 thai just add 3(Sam) and 10(Sip) = 30(Sam Sip) and same thing to 40, 50 on and on. However, in Khmer, "Sam sep" or 40, 50 ..... to 90 have no meaning compare to Thai.

[Angkorianna]

@sabaikhmer The numerical names for khmer numbers are not the same as other language. If you listen or read the analysis in this video, you will see why Khmer numbers are not consistent. I recommend you listen to the video again. Khmer use (Sam) to mean 30. (Sam) is a Chinese word that means 3. Khmer took it from Chinese. Most Khmer pple don't say "Sam Sep" They say (sam,sei,ha,hok...) that is informal, but for formal, khmer also say (sam sep, sei sep). Thai modified our numbers.

[sabaikhmer]

@Angkorianna It doesnt make any sense at all.Why do we use "Sep" in formal then? and the word "Sam Sep(sip)" or 40,50,60.... have meaning in Thai and Khmer have no meaning at all. It's like number 6,7,8,9 we can understand cleanly that these numbers are Khmer origin by saying 5(Bram) and 1(mouy) to make 6(Bram Mouy) same way as 7,8 and 9. This also similar to numbers 30,40,50. . . in Thai, they use 3 plus 10 to make 30 same thing with 40,50,60, 70. . .

[brooklynmonk1]

@sabaikhmer Yes, yuo are exactly right, the numbers 1-9 are Khmer, but the 10's, 30-90 came from Southern China and are the same as the Thai's numbers, 30-90 but in thailand the numbers 3-9 correspond to the numbers 30-90 which suggests that they drew their entire counting system from China, whereas the Khmers only took parts of theirs from southern china. 

[brooklynmonk1]

@Angkorianna We are all in agreement that the Khmer counting system is inconsistent. but you have in no way proven or even explained how you know that this didnt come from China through Thailand.

[brooklynmonk1]

@Angkorianna Once again, this is called truncation, meaning native speakers shorten the pronunciation, but the word doesnt actually change. 30 in khmer is sam-sep, not sam. in common speach, you often say sam but it is always written sam-sep. i have suggested repeatedly that you A. actually go do some reading, and B consult with actual experts, including linguists, and C Do real field work, as I have done for the last 10 years in BOTH countries, Thailand and Cambodia. But you refuse.

[Angkorianna]

@brooklynmonk1 The more you talk the more I see how your level of intelligence is. Your intelligence is low. Your ability to think is not sharp. In a language, if the people are able to understand both formal and informal words, that means the people started that language. Khmer say "sam sep" as 30, we also say "sam" as 30. We understand both ways, but if you say "Sam" to a Thai, it only means "3". That is evident that Khmers are the native speakers of this language.

[brooklynmonk1]

@Angkorianna I have explained truncation to you about eight times here and in a private message. truncation occurs when native speakers, in informal speech, drop certain syllables. from your response I am understand that you were unable to find a dictionary or other reference that confirms that sam by itself actually means thirty in Khmer. if my writing suggests to you that I have a low level of education and intelligence, then you probably aren't qualified to evaluate.

[Angkorianna]

@brooklynmonk1 In Khmer writing , Khmers write both " sam moy" " sei moy" "ha moy" and for formal writing, Khmers say "sam sep moy" "sam sep pee" etc. I studied Khmer language since I was 5 yrs old. My father was a Khmer teacher. Those experts who disagree need to do study Khmer more and re-write their books.

[brooklynmonk1]

@Angkorianna Send me any printed material, any proof on any level that this statement is true "Khmers write both " sam moy" " sei moy" "ha moy" and for formal writing, Khmers say "sam sep moy" "sam sep pee" etc" You absolutely did not study Khmer from age five. no one studies anything at age five. and you seem, as I have repeatedly pointed out, you seem like someone who has never studied anything.

[Angkorianna]

@brooklynmonk1 Do u know what informal and formal mean? Most texts are formal writing. Did u ever see informal writing in American txt books? Most Khmer pple don't know how to read and write. The ones who r educated tend to use formal writing because that is the formal Khmer. Published writing is considered formal.

But for informal writing such as letters, post cards to friends, Khmer can use either informal or formal numerical names. It is accepted both ways. Can Thai say "sam" to mean mean 30?

[sabaikhmer]

@Angkorianna Informal tend to not show the original words or sounds. For example, the 6-9 in informal we say as pamouy for six, (m)pel for seven, (m)vei for eight and (m)voun for nine instead bram-mouy,bram-pee,bram-bei and bram-boun which basically the way how we count khmer numbers.

[brooklynmonk1]

@sabaikhmer what you have written here is correct and further proves that the numbers one-nine are original Khmer numbers.

[brooklynmonk1]

@Angkorianna Yes, I am familiar with the words formal and informal. Please send me any written authority, whether from a dictionary, lexicon, or textbook which suggests that sam means thirty and that it is not just a truncated form of sam-sep.

[Angkorianna]

@brooklynmonk1 My question to you is: does thai language have a truncated form of sam-sep, sei sep, ha sep, hok sep, jet,pet sep, kow sep? In other words, can they shorten "sam-sep" to "sam" and still has the same meaning? I think not because "Sam" only means 3, not 30 in thai language. Since u're in Cambodia, why don't u ask any Cambodian even a 5-year old Khmer what "Sam,sei,ha,hok,jet,pet,kow"me­an? And also ask the same to the people of Thailand. Khmers don't write "informal" in txt books

[brooklynmonk1]

@Angkorianna truncation occurs differently in different cultures and different counrties. Since english is the only language you understand, apart from khmer, i will give examples from English. UK English and USA English both contain truncations, but they often occur in different words or different syllables of the same word. Truncation is not a function of language, but of culture and linguistic laziness in different cultures. 

[Angkorianna]

@brooklynmonk1 Do you trust a math teacher who doesn't know math? I hope you know what I'm implying. I know how you think already, you will answer back by saying" Math has nothing to do with this." What I'm saying is that if you haven't mastered the language, don't try to analyze it. You're only embarrassing yourself. I'm a native Khmer speaker and know more Khmer than you. Remember if it was not written, it doesnt mean it didn't exist.

[Angkorianna]

@brooklynmonk1 Like Khmersanjose stated in his comment: don't be a follower, be a critical thinker. He is right. I know you like to say who you consulted with? A published article, book, or any written record is not always right. Every book is based on the author's theory. Some theories are flawed. If your predecessor is wrong and you just accept it because he wrote a book on it, that means you're wrong too. You have to consult the people who own the language.

[brooklynmonk1]

@Angkorianna Ok so let's discredit 70% of the books and interviews I am citing, but that still leaves me with more actual research data than you, since you obviously did no research at all.

[Angkorianna]

You can write many books as you want, if it is wrong, nobody will believe you. They will always believe the people themselves because they are the masters of the language. If you have a PhD degree from Harvard University, it doesnt mean you know more Khmer language. You may know more English but not Khmer. A written book by a westerner cannot change Khmer language. Even Khmer books that don't include "informal" khmers don't mean it change the Khmer way of communicating.

[Angkorianna]

Like I said, nobody will believe you. Thai pple may believe you. Right now a lot of Khmers don't know about your written publication, once they find out and don't be surprised if your books will be banned in Cambodia.

[brooklynmonk1]

@Angkorianna In the west it is not a matter of believe or not believe. I present facts. then an intelligent person would check those facts and find them accurate or false. You skipped that step. as for banning books in Cambodia, I know your country has a long tradition of banning and burning books, but since less than 50% of the country is literate and less than 2% can or would read English, it's not a huge market for book sales.

[Angkorianna]

@sabaikhmer All khmer numbers have no meaning compared to each other. For example, what does BRAM mean? what does DOP mean? What does MOUY PEY mean?, they have no meaning compared to other numbers. It is just the name of our number. They're not based on any other number like other language. The reason we know BRAM=5, DOp=10, Mouy Pey=20, cuz we were taught that. For 30-90 is the same, they have no meaning compared to other numbers. Also, (Sam) in khmer mean 30, but in Thai means 3.

[brooklynmonk1]

@Angkorianna not true, dop means ten in an older chinese dialect, and mouy pey means one set of twenty in the old base twenty khmer counting system.

[brooklynmonk1]

@sabaikhmer You are correct. The Thai counting system came from Southern China, as a complete and consistent counting system, where, as you said sam relates to sam sip and so on. in fact, if you look at Tiechew, Cantonese, and hokien dialects spoken in China today, the counting is almost the same as Thai. The Khmers invented their own counting system, 1-5 but then borrowed the rest from Chinese, through Thailand.

[brooklynmonk1]

@sabaikhmer Yes you are exactly correct. the Thai counting system actually comes from Southern china and by analyzing modern Chinese dialects we can see that a mix of hokien and Cantonese would account for all of the numbers in Thailand (except zero whihc comes from India). Since the numbers are consistent in Thailand, this would suggest that it was the Thais influencing the Khmers and not the other way round.

[Nearykhmerangkor]

Thanks for sharing your knowledge!