The "temple of unity" posture and chant show that there intersection with the best aspects of Hinduism/Yoga. It derives from the mystical and yogic tradition that is Sufism. The Baha'i Faith is like a form of Sufism writ large by the strange founder, then commandeered as a Marxist-friendly vehicle by western intellectuals from New York. Many Jews, innately Marxist, have been attracted to the Baha'i F. for a long time. But best thing that happened to me in the BF was chanting the Baha'i mantra.
@DivineFellowship What you are doing with all this diatribe you put here is to prove that the alternatives offered by you, and some of your friends, to this Faith are really bizarre.I am convinced now, well and truly that this Faith is true. You have converted me, I am going to become a Baha'i, as I said the alternatives, displayed by you and them is scary stuff indeed.
Why would anyone in their right mind become whatever you are if you are an example of it.
Seen raw in the Aqdas, the Baha'i Faith is, to my eyes, is a very respectable religion. But the interesting point is that these are the elements modern Baha'is like least. They are even embarassed about them. So instead of a real religion they are now an intellectual movement. It's basically cultural Marxism and scientific materialism masquerading as religion, with the real religious element shuffled off to the side, embarassments.
The "temple of unity" thing is evocative. It suggests a spiritual life not dependent on a physical temple to pursue. Every poor couple or devotee could practice anywhere. It belies his own B-u-L's Aqda statement that nobody is to chant except in temples. From the Aqdas it becomes clear that the real Baha'i religion was very devotional (bhakti oriented), featured a lot of japa (Hindu term for repetition of prayer or mantra), was austere, and centered on a worshipful attitude toward God (bhakti).
Now, the interesting point is this: Even though this posture and chanting instruction is very easy to do, and highly significant spiritually, none of the Baha'is around me in the 70s or 80s had ever heard of it. It would have been so easy to include it in the "synopsis" they had available all those years, or to request the western Baha'is do this simple, devotional thing. But Baha'is are too materialistic. They devalue, or completely miss, the genuine spiritual content of their own religion.
This kind of thing has great intersection and resonance with Hindu Yoga, as well as Buddhism. To those who understand the significance of meditation, chanting, and personal worship in God-uncovery, it would be classed as the real heart and soul of the Baha'i Faith. That is, these little instructions to say certain chants, in certain postures. I actually used to do their "Greatest name" chant (though they said nobody need to) and I at in that very posture, and powerful things happened.
Now, I was astounded when I read that. In all my years as a Baha'i I had never heard of this, and Baha'is were not even aware of it, yet so easy to do. In terms of Hindu yoga this is an asana; a sitting posture for meditation. It is an aspect of Sufi 'yoga' as it were, and Baha'u'llah and the Bab could be described as Sufis indeed. The fact that they had a name for this bodily posture, and called it a "temple," is very profound.
For the audience I'll give another example of how sad the Baha'i Faith is. In their "Most Holy Book" there is a very interesting bit, a law. (Everything's a "command" in it.) It says:
"After completing the prostration, you and the women are to sit at the temple of Unity (haykal al-tawhid) and say eighteen times...[an Arabic verse]."
This is the Elder-Miller translation. They explain that "temple of Unity" meant sitting on the floor with feet crossed beneath and hands on knees.
Baha'i prayers are good. It develops one's bhakti.
However, Baha'is are not interested in worship as a concept or element of their religion. In fact, an honest analysis of the Baha'i writings would list "worship" as a "Top 10" basic teaching, not the other things. If you read the constant demands Baha'u'llah makes that he be worshiped, the adulation he directs at himself, we'd HAVE to list it. There are some very cool things in the Aqdas about worship. But Baha'i's are not interested in them.
I remember, in fact, a Baha'i musician doing a late-night at the Greenacre conference (Richard Quinn). He was getting people into a state of worship, teaching American Baha'is how to chant the Allah'u'Abha mantra the way they did it in Turkey. We were getting blissed out, into the state of worship, the heart of religion. Auxiliary Board Member Steven Birkland was there and made a point of walking out to show his displeasure. It was too mystical. Too weird. Too worshippy. Others followed him out.
@DivineFellowship unfortunately, the bahai community of today, in this farse of an epoch based on falsehood and hypocrisy, ended up worshipping the bahai administration much more than God or Baha'u'llah. If the baha'i administration is God himself, and if the auxiliary board members are to be worshipped more than the Hidden Words, then Krishna was not blue but yellow. And so the sky.
I have just told another of your supporters that they made the mistake of assuming I am a Baha'i.(youtubeassumptionism) None of the Baha'is I know would engage with you lot.I will, because I can see what idiots you are, and can say what I like to you. I have never heard a Baha'i say a prayer to the UHJ. About it yes, but not to it. Indeed most don't know the names of the Members. Now, I will track you and your diatribe,and enjoy myself.:-)
The most important H. Word, from an educated religious perspective, is "Look within thyself and thou wilt find me standing within thee." This is, in essence, what the entire Yoga-Sutra & Bhagavad-Gita are written to help the devotee accomplish. Because looking within one's self, and seeing God within, is a very difficult thing to do. But are Baha'is interested in the contents of the Yoga-Sutra (which explains how do to this far better than Baha'i books)? No. Not even in that Hidden Word.
The "Hidden Words" was always my favorite Baha'i scripture. It's the most important one, and the daily 95 chant is the most important Baha'i activity. I was very disappointed when I found that Baha'is had very little interest in the Hidden Words or many of the significant religious statements it makes. Sure, the daily oblig prayer says that. But Baha'is are not interested in worship. They are interested in the world. And yes, the transitory thrills of world-change and mixing 'this' with 'that.'
@DivineFellowship There is that youtubeassumptionism again. How can you possibly know Baha'i's are not interested in worship? Maybe in whatever sect it is you belong to, but all the ones I know Pray all the time.
"Yes, this is the world of dust, but it's a ground to grow our spiritual virtues."---
According to better religions, spiritual virtue arrives when we realize the falsity of the world and the reality of God; and seek the internal reality, losing interest in transient unreality. That's spirt'l virtue. Further, love of God, interest in the One Person (over the exterior samsara) is prime spiritual virtue. You think Baha'ullah speaks idly saying "world of dust." He means: The world is worthless.
@DivineFellowship The obligatory prayer Baha'is must state everyday says "I bear witness oh my God that thou has created me to know thee and to worship thee." That's the ultimate goal. The Baha'i faith doesn't seek to please "transitory thrills" or "vain imaginings." Baha'u'llah says "Should prosperity befall thee, rejoice not and should abasement come upon thee, grieve not, for both shall pass away and be no more." Look up "baha'i hidden words" on google and click the first one.
Seeking fleeting happiness from transitory experiences ("Oh! the black man shook hands with the white! They came to the same meeting!" etc.) is the state of all ordinary humans sunk in ignorance. Everybody wants "happy experiences" to relieve them of dualistic distress. (Whites need such scenes only bec. they are distressed by the notion of "race disharmony" is a big problem.) The real religions teach that the seeking of these transitory thrills is ignorance. Seeking God alone is wisdom.
No, my home is an apartment building on 21st in Portland. I'd much rather have that as may home than "the world." I can't live in 6 billion buildings, and don't want to. I want a real family. "6 billion" can't be my family and I don't want to know 6 billion. People want real homes, real families, and real nations. One thing I don't like about you Baha'is is how you like to make everything meaningless: Important things like family, nation, and home. I'll take real family over fake, please.
The great religions teach knowledge-of-God within as the prime goal; that the world is false/negligible compared to God. I can quote a great many diverse scriptures on that. It is the heart of real religion, and missing in the Baha'i Faith. Baha'is are utterly externally focused; materially-focused; world-focused. All Godly men and women do duty (service) to others naturally. Like sleep-walking, automatic. But that's not the heart of religion. God-search and God-love are the heart of religion.
"World-embracing scope of its teachings?" You must have never even read your own Most Holy Book. "Universalism" (a sad prospect) is mentioned by every mystic. Baha'u'llah didn't say all that much universalist pabulum in the general run of his writings. He wrote more about the right way to go falcon hunting, or commanding Baha'is to be buried in coffins made of "rare stones," "crystal," or "beautiful hardwoods." The communist/deracination aspect of Baha'i was created by the Baha'i promotion men.
Obviously DivineFellowshp is a person of little understanding and shallow intelligence - any serious investigation of Baha'i Teachings will reveal the exalted character of this Faith and the world-embracing scope of teachings among its believers since 1844, recognized by many world leaders around the world who have arisen to object to the persecution and killing of Baha'is in Iran.
I am at a loss to understand how the previous poster came to any of the conclusions in their post. Mine are the complete opposite on nearly every point.
Such materialists. They spend millions and millions trying to impress the world with those buildings. They also trivialize and cheapen the teachings of other religions into nothing, while offering nothing profound in their place. The Bahiyya Khanum woman is a repellent personality. She would scare away little children.
Good observation. When I was a Baha'i you couldn't go to a meeting without facing a long appeal, usually from a designated fundraiser, for more money. It was always for their majestic buildings in Israel, White Slavery capital of the world. Baha'is get thrills of power-lust from their Grecian acropolis buildings in Israel & the fantasy of controlling the world in the future. The marble for their "Universal House of Justice" was hugely expensive & from the last marble quarry of its kind in Italy.
@BookOfFlaws But what about all the efforts that the Baha'i community is currently engaged in? Junior youth groups that empower 11-14 year olds to make a difference in their communities, children's classes that teach effective skills in human interaction through spiritual principles, devotional gatherings that bring community members together in a spiritual atmosphere, and study circles that serve as a springboard for social change?
Sounds like Marxism. Let parents in their own communities teach their own children and youth, not international organizations. The family teaches children "effective skills human interaction," not your bureacracy or indoctrination mills. Devotional gatherings are great, but Baha'is are not interested in devotion as a religious concept, which is sad since their texts are bhakti-oriented. "Spiritual atmosphere" is great, but it makes Baha'is nervous. I told a Steven Birkland anecdote about that.
There are also Baha'i-inspired projects like FUNDAEC, a course that teaches concepts of development in junction with concepts based upon the writings. For example, through years of experience throughout the world (in observations from Baha'i communities reported to Haifa), the House of Justice has helped identify a useful pattern in addressing problems called learning in action: identify problem, discuss how to solve it, implement action, reflect on effectiveness, change actions, etc. etc.
@WhiteElvenDragon -- The family is the proper building block of society, and communities should form from the grass roots up (the family level up). Not be managed or created from the top down. The Baha'i approach of creating communities from the top down has never worked. It's unnatural. The Baha'i Faith would bring the destruction of natural human communities based on family, ethnicity, location, and race. These are REAL communities and naturally cohesive. Not good! Leave Haifa in Haifa.
@BookOfFlaws I very much agree that the family is the building block of society, and that communities should be built from the grassroots up. Total Management from the top is unhealthy, and more and more sectors of society are realizing this. Many well-intentioned people who managed society from the top up have only wreaked havoc. It may have worked alright in former days, but now, the world needs every single person to be strengthened.
"It may have worked alright in former days, but now, the world needs every single person to be strengthened."
It was already in FORMER DAYS that communities grew from natural roots, from the family into clan, tribe, village. It was in the FORMER days that the individual was strengthened -- by a mother who was present, an intact family with support of father, then relatives, then the natural ethnic community. Baha'is want the end of this naturalness and a world controlled "top down."
@BookOfFlaws Communities in depressed conditions need to be uplifted. But there is a fine line that should not be crossed. From what I see, the Baha'i community is understanding this more and more. There have been dozens of Baha'is I've talked to who have told stories about their mistakes in socio-economic development. One group of people helped create indoor plumbing for a community, but the women ended up not using it and instead used the river so they could talk with each other.
This touches another ignorance: Baha'is have their own teachings on science/technology backwards. They don't know the Bab was deeply anti-technology. His Bayan had laws against the study of science; against using conveyances. Baha'u'llah, same attitude. On the automobile: "It's fire shall consume (destroy) the cities." The orig. teaching was that science should be SUBJECT to religious values & not violate them. Baha'is dumbed it down to "harmony of sci. and rel." then turned to science-worship.
@DivineFellowship i haven't heard the automobile quote, but it sounds more like a prophecy than an admonition against science. Where'd you find it? also, Abdul-Baha explicitly states that "If religion were contrary to logical reason then it would cease to be a religion and be merely a tradition. Religion and science are the two wings upon which man's intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone!"
@DivineFellowship I agree that we can't serve everybody, save everybody, etc. But the world is our home, and the home of our children and future descendants. I want to make at least some difference in making earth more like heaven. Yes, this is the world of dust, but it's a ground to grow our spiritual virtues. Abdul-Baha states that we have a two-fold moral purpose: personal transformation and societal transformation.
@DivineFellowship There's an analogy that a tree grows through the support of its environment, and through its growth, it becomes a home for other animals, a means for other organisms to breathe, food for other animals, etc. The tree gives to the environment while it grows. I really don't think you can separate yourself from your environment, even the material environment. A beautiful landscape makes you happy, and seeing destruction makes you sad. a simple observation that shows the interaction
You missed the message of the Hindu and Buddhist view of reality. According to them, the environment is not only not separate from the individual; it's actually a projection of the individual just as your dreams at night can be understood as a projection of you. Thus according to them, no world-improving can occur without self-purification & God-knowledge. The better religions focus on self-purification and God-knowledge, letting the world-dream take care of itself except for natural duty.
You prefer the world to God. A fundamental teaching of Hinduism & Buddhism is that the exterior world-dream is unreal; worthless compared to God. Baha'u'llah tried to convey this by his constant "world of dust" phrase. What you Baha'is do, in practice, is separate yourself from GOD in preference for obsessing on the exterior "environment" (samsara). You don't have a religion, rather, a world-obsession with partic. objectives based on your psychological conditioning. (Ideas of "what's wrong.")
See, you can re-arrange external matter till the cows come home; try to "organize the samsara" with all your might; it will remain an unsatisfactory samsara if you don't possess heaven-within and divinity within, to project it. This is Buddhism/Hinduism/Vedanta. You are the messmaker; it's not the world's fault. You Baha'is have no connection with any of this profound religious knowledge. Have you ever even read "Autobiography of a Yogi"? Read it and see that Baha'is are religiously shallow.
A beautiful landscape, experienced momentarily, is a fruit of your karma/conditioning according to the great religions. (And correlates with particular astrological transits; like Venus transits.) You've revealed the truth about Baha'i psychology. Baha'is are people want pleasant experiences to have fleeting experiences of happiness. Bec, of psychological conditioning, they get thrills from seeing blacks/whites mix, etc. True religion shows how to be happy regardless of exterior conditions.
By the way, according to the p-o-v of Non-Dualistic Vedanta in Upanishads like the Mandukya Upanishad, a tree does not grow by any cause but Pure Consciousness (Brahman). ("A house in the sky has no builder.") Further, a tree is a transitory karmic experience based on conditioning starting with the notion of "a tree" then the experience of "a tree," then repeated and coarsened by repetition into "reality." Notions of "cause," "relationship" are mind-inventions firmed up by repetition. (Vedanta)
@DivineFellowship you've done a lot of research, and i really appreciate your thoroughness. i feel like a lot of the criticism is from Baha'is, not the religion. I know what you mean about some of the observations of Baha'is that you've seen. I completely agree that some things many Baha'is do is frustrating-- being fake, putting undue emphasis on certain events. But I also feel like that's a persian culture thing, influenced into the religious community. It needs to be recognized.
@DivineFellowship The example of the beautiful landscape was just an analogy. But it probably wasn't a very good one, because you're right: this world is a world of dust. Religion speaks to the true value of human nature, which is the spiritual side. But I just don't see how they can be so completely separated. The world affects your soul. Changing the world doesn't have to involve all 6 billion people. It could just be a small community. Simply trying to improve society helps you grow.
@DivineFellowship i also think we are speaking about two different aspects of growth in regards to the tree. I'm not familiar with much of the Hindu faith, but I should. I don't completely understand the example given here, but I just need to learn more about it.
I just see you overtly accusing the Baha'is and the faith for not understanding these religious truths, but much of what you state is written in the Baha'i writings, just not in the same words.
@BookOfFlaws It just shows that anyone wanting to help another community needs to be of total service, and not come in with preconceived notions. The age of Imperialism is over... wayyy over. I think that sometimes depressed regions who are in a specific rut could use some help from the global community. But I don't think it's appropriate for random countries to just give help when they feel like it.
Serve your husband, children, & family and you'll be busy for life. God will be pleased & satisfied. You can't serve everybody, save everybody, nurse everybody's children, feed everybody's children. Serve your own family & people. 'Abdu'l-Baha, when told his little daughter died, wasn't aware she'd been ill. (Poor fatherless child.) He was too busy playing father to "everybody else." Bad example. The poor are with you always. Love your own 1st. But I know White people want to "save everybody."
@BookOfFlaws With the crisis in Darfur, America is helping some, France thinks it's just a civil war, and Arab countries support the Sudanese government's position. Many countries are afraid of infringing one another's national sovereignty. It's true that the genocide convention is vague and doesn't mention anything on how to protect the victim, but that's something that needs attention. That's where the concept of "learning in action" needs to come in-- see a mistake and fix it immediately.
It's not a trait of genuine to religion to make one preoccupied by continual crises and problems of the exterior 'World of Dust.' Jesus said, "The poor you have with you always," "wars and rumors of wars." Your mind is strung out over endless problems of "other places" distant. Genuine religion shows as long as immersed in duality, duality (samsara) never ends. Being externally-focused; trying to "fix" the world isn't a new idea and it doesn't constitute religion. You Baha'is need religion.
Hinduism & Buddhism teach that exterior world-flaws are projections of one's personal impurities. Those profounder religions teach that when one purifies himself; immerses himself in God within himself, the world upgrades; saves itself; perfects itself. The completely externalized and world-obsessed Baha'is do not even comport with their own scriptures, which stress inwardness ("look within thyself"), and God-knowledge thru bhakti (devotion). Baha'i is a world-obsession posing as a religion.
But it's interesting that you see the face of the Baha'i faith in this way. I never really thought about it like that. I do agree that some Baha'is unnecessarily emphasize certain aspects of the faith, forgetting to put on an objective lens. But I also think that's their problem, not the faith's. haha
@WhiteElvenDragon -- The interesting thing is that the Baha'is have deliberately suppressed the face because they knew it would be a turnoff to most. Everything with Baha'i is about promotion. They're "10 basic principles" are not an honest assay of the real content of their scriptures. (10 scholars would never come up with that list based on the literature.) Rather, it was formulated for promotional purposes; to attract progressives and liberals; for the sake of "growth."
The "temple of unity" posture and chant show that there intersection with the best aspects of Hinduism/Yoga. It derives from the mystical and yogic tradition that is Sufism. The Baha'i Faith is like a form of Sufism writ large by the strange founder, then commandeered as a Marxist-friendly vehicle by western intellectuals from New York. Many Jews, innately Marxist, have been attracted to the Baha'i F. for a long time. But best thing that happened to me in the BF was chanting the Baha'i mantra.
DivineFellowship 1 month ago
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@DivineFellowship What you are doing with all this diatribe you put here is to prove that the alternatives offered by you, and some of your friends, to this Faith are really bizarre.I am convinced now, well and truly that this Faith is true. You have converted me, I am going to become a Baha'i, as I said the alternatives, displayed by you and them is scary stuff indeed.
Why would anyone in their right mind become whatever you are if you are an example of it.
As-Salāmu `Alaykum
waiotahi52 1 month ago in playlist Liked videos
Seen raw in the Aqdas, the Baha'i Faith is, to my eyes, is a very respectable religion. But the interesting point is that these are the elements modern Baha'is like least. They are even embarassed about them. So instead of a real religion they are now an intellectual movement. It's basically cultural Marxism and scientific materialism masquerading as religion, with the real religious element shuffled off to the side, embarassments.
DivineFellowship 1 month ago
The "temple of unity" thing is evocative. It suggests a spiritual life not dependent on a physical temple to pursue. Every poor couple or devotee could practice anywhere. It belies his own B-u-L's Aqda statement that nobody is to chant except in temples. From the Aqdas it becomes clear that the real Baha'i religion was very devotional (bhakti oriented), featured a lot of japa (Hindu term for repetition of prayer or mantra), was austere, and centered on a worshipful attitude toward God (bhakti).
DivineFellowship 1 month ago
Now, the interesting point is this: Even though this posture and chanting instruction is very easy to do, and highly significant spiritually, none of the Baha'is around me in the 70s or 80s had ever heard of it. It would have been so easy to include it in the "synopsis" they had available all those years, or to request the western Baha'is do this simple, devotional thing. But Baha'is are too materialistic. They devalue, or completely miss, the genuine spiritual content of their own religion.
DivineFellowship 1 month ago
This kind of thing has great intersection and resonance with Hindu Yoga, as well as Buddhism. To those who understand the significance of meditation, chanting, and personal worship in God-uncovery, it would be classed as the real heart and soul of the Baha'i Faith. That is, these little instructions to say certain chants, in certain postures. I actually used to do their "Greatest name" chant (though they said nobody need to) and I at in that very posture, and powerful things happened.
DivineFellowship 1 month ago
Now, I was astounded when I read that. In all my years as a Baha'i I had never heard of this, and Baha'is were not even aware of it, yet so easy to do. In terms of Hindu yoga this is an asana; a sitting posture for meditation. It is an aspect of Sufi 'yoga' as it were, and Baha'u'llah and the Bab could be described as Sufis indeed. The fact that they had a name for this bodily posture, and called it a "temple," is very profound.
DivineFellowship 1 month ago
For the audience I'll give another example of how sad the Baha'i Faith is. In their "Most Holy Book" there is a very interesting bit, a law. (Everything's a "command" in it.) It says:
"After completing the prostration, you and the women are to sit at the temple of Unity (haykal al-tawhid) and say eighteen times...[an Arabic verse]."
This is the Elder-Miller translation. They explain that "temple of Unity" meant sitting on the floor with feet crossed beneath and hands on knees.
DivineFellowship 1 month ago
Baha'i prayers are good. It develops one's bhakti.
However, Baha'is are not interested in worship as a concept or element of their religion. In fact, an honest analysis of the Baha'i writings would list "worship" as a "Top 10" basic teaching, not the other things. If you read the constant demands Baha'u'llah makes that he be worshiped, the adulation he directs at himself, we'd HAVE to list it. There are some very cool things in the Aqdas about worship. But Baha'i's are not interested in them.
DivineFellowship 1 month ago
I remember, in fact, a Baha'i musician doing a late-night at the Greenacre conference (Richard Quinn). He was getting people into a state of worship, teaching American Baha'is how to chant the Allah'u'Abha mantra the way they did it in Turkey. We were getting blissed out, into the state of worship, the heart of religion. Auxiliary Board Member Steven Birkland was there and made a point of walking out to show his displeasure. It was too mystical. Too weird. Too worshippy. Others followed him out.
DivineFellowship 2 months ago
@DivineFellowship unfortunately, the bahai community of today, in this farse of an epoch based on falsehood and hypocrisy, ended up worshipping the bahai administration much more than God or Baha'u'llah. If the baha'i administration is God himself, and if the auxiliary board members are to be worshipped more than the Hidden Words, then Krishna was not blue but yellow. And so the sky.
duckotaco 1 month ago
@duckotaco This is rubbish.
I have just told another of your supporters that they made the mistake of assuming I am a Baha'i.(youtubeassumptionism) None of the Baha'is I know would engage with you lot.I will, because I can see what idiots you are, and can say what I like to you. I have never heard a Baha'i say a prayer to the UHJ. About it yes, but not to it. Indeed most don't know the names of the Members. Now, I will track you and your diatribe,and enjoy myself.:-)
waiotahi52 1 month ago
The most important H. Word, from an educated religious perspective, is "Look within thyself and thou wilt find me standing within thee." This is, in essence, what the entire Yoga-Sutra & Bhagavad-Gita are written to help the devotee accomplish. Because looking within one's self, and seeing God within, is a very difficult thing to do. But are Baha'is interested in the contents of the Yoga-Sutra (which explains how do to this far better than Baha'i books)? No. Not even in that Hidden Word.
DivineFellowship 2 months ago
The "Hidden Words" was always my favorite Baha'i scripture. It's the most important one, and the daily 95 chant is the most important Baha'i activity. I was very disappointed when I found that Baha'is had very little interest in the Hidden Words or many of the significant religious statements it makes. Sure, the daily oblig prayer says that. But Baha'is are not interested in worship. They are interested in the world. And yes, the transitory thrills of world-change and mixing 'this' with 'that.'
DivineFellowship 2 months ago
@DivineFellowship Speak for yourself.
waiotahi52 2 months ago
@DivineFellowship There is that youtubeassumptionism again. How can you possibly know Baha'i's are not interested in worship? Maybe in whatever sect it is you belong to, but all the ones I know Pray all the time.
waiotahi52 1 month ago
"Yes, this is the world of dust, but it's a ground to grow our spiritual virtues."---
According to better religions, spiritual virtue arrives when we realize the falsity of the world and the reality of God; and seek the internal reality, losing interest in transient unreality. That's spirt'l virtue. Further, love of God, interest in the One Person (over the exterior samsara) is prime spiritual virtue. You think Baha'ullah speaks idly saying "world of dust." He means: The world is worthless.
DivineFellowship 2 months ago
@DivineFellowship The obligatory prayer Baha'is must state everyday says "I bear witness oh my God that thou has created me to know thee and to worship thee." That's the ultimate goal. The Baha'i faith doesn't seek to please "transitory thrills" or "vain imaginings." Baha'u'llah says "Should prosperity befall thee, rejoice not and should abasement come upon thee, grieve not, for both shall pass away and be no more." Look up "baha'i hidden words" on google and click the first one.
WhiteElvenDragon 2 months ago
Seeking fleeting happiness from transitory experiences ("Oh! the black man shook hands with the white! They came to the same meeting!" etc.) is the state of all ordinary humans sunk in ignorance. Everybody wants "happy experiences" to relieve them of dualistic distress. (Whites need such scenes only bec. they are distressed by the notion of "race disharmony" is a big problem.) The real religions teach that the seeking of these transitory thrills is ignorance. Seeking God alone is wisdom.
DivineFellowship 2 months ago
No, my home is an apartment building on 21st in Portland. I'd much rather have that as may home than "the world." I can't live in 6 billion buildings, and don't want to. I want a real family. "6 billion" can't be my family and I don't want to know 6 billion. People want real homes, real families, and real nations. One thing I don't like about you Baha'is is how you like to make everything meaningless: Important things like family, nation, and home. I'll take real family over fake, please.
DivineFellowship 2 months ago
The great religions teach knowledge-of-God within as the prime goal; that the world is false/negligible compared to God. I can quote a great many diverse scriptures on that. It is the heart of real religion, and missing in the Baha'i Faith. Baha'is are utterly externally focused; materially-focused; world-focused. All Godly men and women do duty (service) to others naturally. Like sleep-walking, automatic. But that's not the heart of religion. God-search and God-love are the heart of religion.
DivineFellowship 2 months ago
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DivineFellowship 2 months ago
"World-embracing scope of its teachings?" You must have never even read your own Most Holy Book. "Universalism" (a sad prospect) is mentioned by every mystic. Baha'u'llah didn't say all that much universalist pabulum in the general run of his writings. He wrote more about the right way to go falcon hunting, or commanding Baha'is to be buried in coffins made of "rare stones," "crystal," or "beautiful hardwoods." The communist/deracination aspect of Baha'i was created by the Baha'i promotion men.
BookOfFlaws 3 months ago
Obviously DivineFellowshp is a person of little understanding and shallow intelligence - any serious investigation of Baha'i Teachings will reveal the exalted character of this Faith and the world-embracing scope of teachings among its believers since 1844, recognized by many world leaders around the world who have arisen to object to the persecution and killing of Baha'is in Iran.
BIJOU019 11 months ago
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BIJOU019 11 months ago
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Check out my video about strange bahai laws
MillerGenuineCraft 11 months ago
I am at a loss to understand how the previous poster came to any of the conclusions in their post. Mine are the complete opposite on nearly every point.
Norge0000 1 year ago
Such materialists. They spend millions and millions trying to impress the world with those buildings. They also trivialize and cheapen the teachings of other religions into nothing, while offering nothing profound in their place. The Bahiyya Khanum woman is a repellent personality. She would scare away little children.
DivineFellowship 1 year ago
Good observation. When I was a Baha'i you couldn't go to a meeting without facing a long appeal, usually from a designated fundraiser, for more money. It was always for their majestic buildings in Israel, White Slavery capital of the world. Baha'is get thrills of power-lust from their Grecian acropolis buildings in Israel & the fantasy of controlling the world in the future. The marble for their "Universal House of Justice" was hugely expensive & from the last marble quarry of its kind in Italy.
BookOfFlaws 3 months ago
@BookOfFlaws But what about all the efforts that the Baha'i community is currently engaged in? Junior youth groups that empower 11-14 year olds to make a difference in their communities, children's classes that teach effective skills in human interaction through spiritual principles, devotional gatherings that bring community members together in a spiritual atmosphere, and study circles that serve as a springboard for social change?
WhiteElvenDragon 3 months ago
Sounds like Marxism. Let parents in their own communities teach their own children and youth, not international organizations. The family teaches children "effective skills human interaction," not your bureacracy or indoctrination mills. Devotional gatherings are great, but Baha'is are not interested in devotion as a religious concept, which is sad since their texts are bhakti-oriented. "Spiritual atmosphere" is great, but it makes Baha'is nervous. I told a Steven Birkland anecdote about that.
BookOfFlaws 2 months ago
There are also Baha'i-inspired projects like FUNDAEC, a course that teaches concepts of development in junction with concepts based upon the writings. For example, through years of experience throughout the world (in observations from Baha'i communities reported to Haifa), the House of Justice has helped identify a useful pattern in addressing problems called learning in action: identify problem, discuss how to solve it, implement action, reflect on effectiveness, change actions, etc. etc.
WhiteElvenDragon 3 months ago
@WhiteElvenDragon -- The family is the proper building block of society, and communities should form from the grass roots up (the family level up). Not be managed or created from the top down. The Baha'i approach of creating communities from the top down has never worked. It's unnatural. The Baha'i Faith would bring the destruction of natural human communities based on family, ethnicity, location, and race. These are REAL communities and naturally cohesive. Not good! Leave Haifa in Haifa.
BookOfFlaws 2 months ago
@BookOfFlaws I very much agree that the family is the building block of society, and that communities should be built from the grassroots up. Total Management from the top is unhealthy, and more and more sectors of society are realizing this. Many well-intentioned people who managed society from the top up have only wreaked havoc. It may have worked alright in former days, but now, the world needs every single person to be strengthened.
WhiteElvenDragon 2 months ago
"It may have worked alright in former days, but now, the world needs every single person to be strengthened."
It was already in FORMER DAYS that communities grew from natural roots, from the family into clan, tribe, village. It was in the FORMER days that the individual was strengthened -- by a mother who was present, an intact family with support of father, then relatives, then the natural ethnic community. Baha'is want the end of this naturalness and a world controlled "top down."
DivineFellowship 2 months ago
@BookOfFlaws Communities in depressed conditions need to be uplifted. But there is a fine line that should not be crossed. From what I see, the Baha'i community is understanding this more and more. There have been dozens of Baha'is I've talked to who have told stories about their mistakes in socio-economic development. One group of people helped create indoor plumbing for a community, but the women ended up not using it and instead used the river so they could talk with each other.
WhiteElvenDragon 2 months ago
This touches another ignorance: Baha'is have their own teachings on science/technology backwards. They don't know the Bab was deeply anti-technology. His Bayan had laws against the study of science; against using conveyances. Baha'u'llah, same attitude. On the automobile: "It's fire shall consume (destroy) the cities." The orig. teaching was that science should be SUBJECT to religious values & not violate them. Baha'is dumbed it down to "harmony of sci. and rel." then turned to science-worship.
DivineFellowship 2 months ago
@DivineFellowship i haven't heard the automobile quote, but it sounds more like a prophecy than an admonition against science. Where'd you find it? also, Abdul-Baha explicitly states that "If religion were contrary to logical reason then it would cease to be a religion and be merely a tradition. Religion and science are the two wings upon which man's intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone!"
WhiteElvenDragon 2 months ago
@DivineFellowship I agree that we can't serve everybody, save everybody, etc. But the world is our home, and the home of our children and future descendants. I want to make at least some difference in making earth more like heaven. Yes, this is the world of dust, but it's a ground to grow our spiritual virtues. Abdul-Baha states that we have a two-fold moral purpose: personal transformation and societal transformation.
WhiteElvenDragon 2 months ago
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DivineFellowship 2 months ago
"personal transformation & societal transformation."
Only the 1st is important because the 2nd follows from it. Meanwhile, Baha'is care only about the lesser. My observs about Baha'is (from 15 yrs):
-- Their ideas about what personal transformation entails are very limited.
-- The majority of their focus is on the exterior ("societal trans.").
Outer darkness is a projection of inner darkness. Without destroying one's own darkness/sin, world can't improve because you project the world.
DivineFellowship 2 months ago
@DivineFellowship There's an analogy that a tree grows through the support of its environment, and through its growth, it becomes a home for other animals, a means for other organisms to breathe, food for other animals, etc. The tree gives to the environment while it grows. I really don't think you can separate yourself from your environment, even the material environment. A beautiful landscape makes you happy, and seeing destruction makes you sad. a simple observation that shows the interaction
WhiteElvenDragon 2 months ago
You missed the message of the Hindu and Buddhist view of reality. According to them, the environment is not only not separate from the individual; it's actually a projection of the individual just as your dreams at night can be understood as a projection of you. Thus according to them, no world-improving can occur without self-purification & God-knowledge. The better religions focus on self-purification and God-knowledge, letting the world-dream take care of itself except for natural duty.
DivineFellowship 2 months ago
You prefer the world to God. A fundamental teaching of Hinduism & Buddhism is that the exterior world-dream is unreal; worthless compared to God. Baha'u'llah tried to convey this by his constant "world of dust" phrase. What you Baha'is do, in practice, is separate yourself from GOD in preference for obsessing on the exterior "environment" (samsara). You don't have a religion, rather, a world-obsession with partic. objectives based on your psychological conditioning. (Ideas of "what's wrong.")
DivineFellowship 2 months ago
See, you can re-arrange external matter till the cows come home; try to "organize the samsara" with all your might; it will remain an unsatisfactory samsara if you don't possess heaven-within and divinity within, to project it. This is Buddhism/Hinduism/Vedanta. You are the messmaker; it's not the world's fault. You Baha'is have no connection with any of this profound religious knowledge. Have you ever even read "Autobiography of a Yogi"? Read it and see that Baha'is are religiously shallow.
DivineFellowship 2 months ago
A beautiful landscape, experienced momentarily, is a fruit of your karma/conditioning according to the great religions. (And correlates with particular astrological transits; like Venus transits.) You've revealed the truth about Baha'i psychology. Baha'is are people want pleasant experiences to have fleeting experiences of happiness. Bec, of psychological conditioning, they get thrills from seeing blacks/whites mix, etc. True religion shows how to be happy regardless of exterior conditions.
DivineFellowship 2 months ago
By the way, according to the p-o-v of Non-Dualistic Vedanta in Upanishads like the Mandukya Upanishad, a tree does not grow by any cause but Pure Consciousness (Brahman). ("A house in the sky has no builder.") Further, a tree is a transitory karmic experience based on conditioning starting with the notion of "a tree" then the experience of "a tree," then repeated and coarsened by repetition into "reality." Notions of "cause," "relationship" are mind-inventions firmed up by repetition. (Vedanta)
DivineFellowship 2 months ago
@DivineFellowship you've done a lot of research, and i really appreciate your thoroughness. i feel like a lot of the criticism is from Baha'is, not the religion. I know what you mean about some of the observations of Baha'is that you've seen. I completely agree that some things many Baha'is do is frustrating-- being fake, putting undue emphasis on certain events. But I also feel like that's a persian culture thing, influenced into the religious community. It needs to be recognized.
WhiteElvenDragon 2 months ago
@WhiteElvenDragon you're right about persian culture being crap and ruining the bahai community. very right.
duckotaco 1 month ago
@DivineFellowship The example of the beautiful landscape was just an analogy. But it probably wasn't a very good one, because you're right: this world is a world of dust. Religion speaks to the true value of human nature, which is the spiritual side. But I just don't see how they can be so completely separated. The world affects your soul. Changing the world doesn't have to involve all 6 billion people. It could just be a small community. Simply trying to improve society helps you grow.
WhiteElvenDragon 2 months ago
@DivineFellowship i also think we are speaking about two different aspects of growth in regards to the tree. I'm not familiar with much of the Hindu faith, but I should. I don't completely understand the example given here, but I just need to learn more about it.
I just see you overtly accusing the Baha'is and the faith for not understanding these religious truths, but much of what you state is written in the Baha'i writings, just not in the same words.
WhiteElvenDragon 2 months ago
@BookOfFlaws It just shows that anyone wanting to help another community needs to be of total service, and not come in with preconceived notions. The age of Imperialism is over... wayyy over. I think that sometimes depressed regions who are in a specific rut could use some help from the global community. But I don't think it's appropriate for random countries to just give help when they feel like it.
WhiteElvenDragon 2 months ago
Serve your husband, children, & family and you'll be busy for life. God will be pleased & satisfied. You can't serve everybody, save everybody, nurse everybody's children, feed everybody's children. Serve your own family & people. 'Abdu'l-Baha, when told his little daughter died, wasn't aware she'd been ill. (Poor fatherless child.) He was too busy playing father to "everybody else." Bad example. The poor are with you always. Love your own 1st. But I know White people want to "save everybody."
DivineFellowship 2 months ago
@BookOfFlaws With the crisis in Darfur, America is helping some, France thinks it's just a civil war, and Arab countries support the Sudanese government's position. Many countries are afraid of infringing one another's national sovereignty. It's true that the genocide convention is vague and doesn't mention anything on how to protect the victim, but that's something that needs attention. That's where the concept of "learning in action" needs to come in-- see a mistake and fix it immediately.
WhiteElvenDragon 2 months ago
It's not a trait of genuine to religion to make one preoccupied by continual crises and problems of the exterior 'World of Dust.' Jesus said, "The poor you have with you always," "wars and rumors of wars." Your mind is strung out over endless problems of "other places" distant. Genuine religion shows as long as immersed in duality, duality (samsara) never ends. Being externally-focused; trying to "fix" the world isn't a new idea and it doesn't constitute religion. You Baha'is need religion.
DivineFellowship 2 months ago
Hinduism & Buddhism teach that exterior world-flaws are projections of one's personal impurities. Those profounder religions teach that when one purifies himself; immerses himself in God within himself, the world upgrades; saves itself; perfects itself. The completely externalized and world-obsessed Baha'is do not even comport with their own scriptures, which stress inwardness ("look within thyself"), and God-knowledge thru bhakti (devotion). Baha'i is a world-obsession posing as a religion.
DivineFellowship 2 months ago
But it's interesting that you see the face of the Baha'i faith in this way. I never really thought about it like that. I do agree that some Baha'is unnecessarily emphasize certain aspects of the faith, forgetting to put on an objective lens. But I also think that's their problem, not the faith's. haha
WhiteElvenDragon 3 months ago
@WhiteElvenDragon -- The interesting thing is that the Baha'is have deliberately suppressed the face because they knew it would be a turnoff to most. Everything with Baha'i is about promotion. They're "10 basic principles" are not an honest assay of the real content of their scriptures. (10 scholars would never come up with that list based on the literature.) Rather, it was formulated for promotional purposes; to attract progressives and liberals; for the sake of "growth."
BookOfFlaws 2 months ago