what does it mean to legalize sex industry? is the government creating alternative services, or simply changing laws, if the latter is the case, no wonder it's not catching on in the streets. As for bringing in an additional 100 workers, i see it as saving them from considering the streets. Until massive probably unrealistic social changes happen we gotta deal with the situation as best as possible with real/safe alternatives. Interesting study about condom use, but I doubt it's wide spread.
If a women wants to have sex for money, i think she should legally be able to do so, I don't think it's wrong, I think it's simply degrading but no different then the range of jobs in other markets. This legalized industry should only run in an approved government system, which means it would still be illegal to have sex workers any where outside this approved industry. stds checks/security/social services offered. If it's regulated how is it any worse then most shity jobs.
@architect333 Tell you what, go to a bar (if you're a dude go out to a gay bar) and announce, 'For the next 6 hours, I will let any man who wants to fuck me'. When you're done come back online and post about your experience. I reckon you'll be able to think of a couple ways it was worse than a day flipping burgers.
@rubbleofempires Good idea, cut the"bullshit" would be the ideal thoughts going through the minds of most young men looking for fun. Bars are filled with the intention of sex, promiscuity is quite the norm, and getting paid for it wouldn't be to far a stretch if not for the stigma which pushes this behavior underground. Many choose to do so and would say it kills being a bitch 40h/w. If practiced as described above would these women not have control? Do they not choose this type of work?
@architect333 Good pay for a few hours a week compared to regular jobs makes it possible, is it not? why would they choose this. If the problem is directly related to pimp control, well simple crack down/long term jail sentences for pimps would fix that.But I think there would still be a scene for easy money, or desperate males, and a legalized scene would protect that market. Otherwise we sexually deprive people leading to bigger criminal problems when there are those willing to do the job. No?
@architect333 How exactly do you differentiate the tiny minority of women who want to sell sex from the vast majority of prostituted women who were coerced into the life around age 13 and don't know anything else or are just poor or drug addicted and shit out of options? Talk about a needle in a haystack.
@NotADood well it's easy you separate the issues, create laws and strict penalties for those contributing to victims, and allow those who simply don't go by classic christian culture, or victims of capitalism to choose how to make a living. Again I don't agree with it, but until we can constructively deal with the reality of inequality, were in no place to tell them how they should live.
@NotADood If it was easier, we wouldn't be in this situation, humans are more likely to take the "easier" path to make a living. But in reality, it's hard to create jobs for uneducated people(were in a modern scientific/tech world), or for those "weak" people (quickly breakdown physically or mentally doing labor), and to top it of, in an environment of poverty, lack of education or values and hope, resulting in crime and desperation all thanks to the greed, and overpopulation.
@architect333 I've been broke to the point of near homelessness a couple points in my life and have never been tempted to take the "easier" route of sucking strange dick for money. How about yourself? You could do it as easily as anybody. If it's the easier path, why don't you your personal self go out to the high way rest stop men's rooms and make yourself some extra spending money?
@NotADood "near homeless" comparisons,and childish conclusions based on your upbringing and environment is just one view of many.When I talk about sex work, it's desperate people looking to get a piece of the pie from those better off. Sex work is a side effect of many issues ranging from overpopulation to class based society (oppression). I've been around,IN THEIR SHOES, I would do it if I had a child to feed, offer hope. or to feed myself. "easier" is relative to circumstances.
@NotADood "near homeless" comparisons,and childish conclusions based on your upbringing and environment is just one view of many.When I talk about sex work, it's desperate people looking to get a piece of the pie from those better off. Sex work is a side effect of many issues ranging from overpopulation to class based society (oppression). I've been around,IN THEIR SHOES, I would do it if I had a child to feed, offer hope. or to feed myself. "easier" is relative to circumstances.
@NotADood "near homeless" comparisons,and childish conclusions based on your upbringing and environment is just one view of many.When I talk about sex work, it's desperate people looking to get a piece of the pie from those better off. Sex work is a side effect of many issues ranging from overpopulation to class based society Ex:oppression. I've been around,IN THEIR SHOES, I would do it if I had a child to feed, offer hope. or to feed myself. "easier" is relative to circumstances.
@NotADood "near homeless" comparisons,and childish conclusions based on your upbringing and environment is just one view of many.When I talk about sex work, it's desperate people looking to get a piece of the pie from those better off. Sex work is a side effect of many issues ranging from overpopulation to class based society. I've been around,IN THEIR SHOES, I would do it if I had a child to feed, offer hope. or to feed myself. "easier" is relative to circumstances.
@NotADood architect has absolutely NO idea what he is talking about. Firstly he obviously has never been a prostitute and secondly he obviously does not know a sex worker personally. Women do not get into this industry because it is a great career choice they end up there mostly because they have had abusive childhoods. I've never met a sex worker who grew up nurtured. One more point I'd like to make is it is NOT easy money. The vast majority of men that visit brothels treat women appallingly.
@Joolsie68 And once they're in there, they have to convince themselves they're okay with it to make it through. People who talk about it like it's "any other job" obviously have no interest in informing themselves what the lives of prostituted people are actually like. Willful ignorance is the worst kind.
This is a brilliant video. The only thing I can think to add is that the existence of a legalised industry is also a hideous way to groom women and get them into the illegal sex industry. Girls in school will get the impression that prostitution is a viable career. Also, workers in the relatively vanilla / legal industry will be easier to recruit - along the lines of, "You're already a prostitute, why not be a prostitute who does it without a condom, then you'll earn much more money?"
@rubbleofempires They regulate conditions by law. I see where this is going, You put the good of society as a wholeabove individual rights and i put it the other way around. I am against regulating agreements between consenting adults.
@Bellybusterr We're talking about money, not what people want to do. Commercialization is regulated. If a business or commercial practice were to cause harm to thousands of people in numerous ways it should not be condoned. It's not a matter of individual over group, because kidnapped and enslaved people are also individuals, so what people are doing is making a choice between women with choices and prioritizing them above people who don't. Makes no sense.
@rememberthediamonds *without choices. (I make a lot of mistakes in commenting because I'm constantly changing midstream how I'm going to phrase things. )
@rememberthediamonds I can see that point being valid on some other issues but for you to make that argument in this case you will have to show how me giving you a BJ and you paying me for it will cause harm to others. I don't see it.
heres a link to my latest. i link back to your vids twice, not sure how pingbacks etc work on youtube so just wanted to give you a heads up, as i do pick on you a little. thanks for your response earlier.
ok thanks for clarifying. i hadnt ever considered that before, so i was wondering if you made it up, or if you read it somewhere? also, just googled "public assistance and prostitution" and it hit on a book which makes this connection too. Liberalism and prostitution By Peter De Marneffe. i have no idea if its a good book, or anything about the authors politics, but i think its an excellent point. also, delete double post, sorry bout that!
hi rubble. i found your comment on welfare interesting, care to expound on that? (also, source?) here in the US for example, to be eligible for social security disability benefits, you have to be physically or mentally unable to perform ANY JOB thats available in the national economy, to qualify for disability payments. i have never thought about this before, but if prostitution was legal here, you (meaning ONLY WOMEN) would have to be so disabled that you couldnt even fuck, in order to get SSD.
@factcheckme Thanks. I guess my argument was that if you were to remove prostitution from the private market but still provide it (in the way I was suggesting that drugs be provided) you would need to have the government paying. There's not really a source because it was an assertion. But I have found that one way to get people to sympathise (particuarly in Australia where welfare is more common) is to say 'imagine if your welfare was connectd to prostitution.'
"but when it comes to prostitution a quality product in the eyes of a customer is sex [and] how they want to have it, regardless of the safety of the prostitutes"
I don't know how you can make that claim. Don't you think that the client wants a safe service? You can't compare service to product, they are not comparable. So why can't a legal service provide the things you listed (other than sex with out a condom)? A regulated industry is still a safer industry than an illegal one.
@ReignbowSmite A regulated industry can still provide any sexual acts a customer wants as long as it falls with in health and safety guidelines. You are making a lot of assumptions about the client here. I can't watch the rest of this video because you are basing it off of an assumption with out evidence at the very beginning.
Last, it's an error to compare prostitution to any other industry-- at all. It's not like drugs. Straightforward regulations that you could apply to any other industry simply cannot be applied to it, unless you make crass errors of thought like making the customer "the boss," or making one side of a business transaction illegal while the other is perfectly moral. In which case, you'll never truthfully know if it's successful because you've damaged your thought process.
Maybe things don't translate from Swedish very well, but that commission did not sound independent. Led by the Chancellor of Justice?
Why would anybody pay just to have someone stay up for 24 hours, you idiot. Unless you're trying to propose that exhaustion has a market value, or is a product? If an employer pays you to stay up for 24 hours, it's because he wants you to do something else in that time. So, it would be a stupid comparison to sex.
You're also better off quoting a comedian than attributing your sources simply by saying "a study says." Yes, that's really much better. Not to much better than just your opinion.
You punish the boss? In what other industry is the customer considered "the boss?" You have to damage yourself mentally to believe this. This would imply also that independent prostitutes are never "the boss." Can you also think of one other $ transaction where one side is legal and the other isn't?
As for condom use in legal or illegal situations: you have to compare them to something before you judge how good they are. How good are prostitutes about condoms as opposed to, say, dating couples (who BTW, are poor about it) or other polygamous people? Now, as for whether it's worse under legality, for some odd reason, you need something better than a single study. In Nevada (don't get me started about that brothel system) condom use is absolutely enforced. Why did you chose Victoria AU?
Whereas you've made all the tired arguments against prostitution. The old-tired-argument tired argument is a simple appeal to audience prejudice.Not a good start. There are prostitute websites where the ladies say if you're drunk and acting erratic, I WILL LEAVE, (with your money, BTW). Given client complaints on other websites, some ladies do just this. So, I know your part where the prostitute has to provide the client everything he asks for is mostly bullshit NOW, with prostitution illegal.
@wentshow Also, that argument depends on a stereotype of prostitute clients, and since preliminary indications are that a quarter of males of ALL socio-economic groups will sometime in their lives pay for sex with a female, any stereotype you make is going to be-- totally incorrect. If there are some studies of prostitutes, studies of clients are almost totally absent. You have neither fact nor evidence to make a prediction about what that group will and won't demand-- but you do it anyway.
I love this video. Oh, I don't know if you have access to a research library but I've got some access. My new channel is going to be dedicated to research.
I'm willing to bet my eyeballs that most of the prostitutes who choose sex for work and the Johns who actually give a fuck (?) about real consent, are unlikely to be affected by the Swedish model. Most of the johns affected by such a model are the ones going for underage prostitutes, street walkers etc. Choice is still there. It's like if someone chooses to smoke pot and is careful, the law can't touch em (of course a lot of pot heads aren't careful, just like a lot of johns).
Here's a quaint little idea... what two or more consenting adults do sexually to or with each other is NOONE'S business. Whether money is involved, or a camera, or a consenting audience, changes that in no way. Why can't we stop being so obsessed with what other people do with their private parts?
@pfarabee Because when add money to the ecausion it becomes a labour rights issue and it's not just the people involved who are effected by the situation.
@rubbleofempires you are assuming an employer-employee relationship. A private citizen performing a service for a fee is not necessarily an employee. Any "license" issued for such work should only be able to certify the health of the worker, as well as any training or safety courses deemed required by law, but should not pertain to specific acts performed. For instance, in your "quality product" list, almost every act you mention SHOULD NOT BE REGULATED.
@pfarabee as an example of one item you listed: anal sex. I'm not a fan of anal sex myself, but why would you assume that someone would need to go to a black market to secure that service? By what right do you suggest that "licensed" prostitutes be barred from performing that service? It is personal choice at that point, and if someone wishes to provide that act, they should be able to for an appropriate fee. Same for sex in someone's home, car, etc. (anywhere sex is legal) Their CHOICE.
“You are assuming an employer-employee relationship. A private citizen performing a service for a fee is not necessarily an employee.”
Whether or not they technically meet the definition of an 'employee' is besides the point. It's still a labor rights issue. In Australia, pizza delivery drivers are hired by the big pizza stores on the basis that they are 'private contractors.' It means they get out of paying the people minimum wage and other benefits... (Cont 1)
@rubbleofempires (resume 1) You keep screaming about 'choice,' so let me explain something about choice. Working as a private contractor with no minimum wage is a choice. Working as a genuine employee with a full minimum wage is also a choice. If a worker was presented with a genuine choice between the two, virtually no-one is going to choose to work as a private contractor. (cont 2)
@rubbleofempires (resume 2) The problem is that if you make it legal for a worker to sell their labor as a private contractor, many people who would want to choose to work as genuine employee are going to be robbed of that opportunity. Allowing one of the choices means not allowing another one of the choices for everyone else.
@rubbleofempires Sounds like pizza contractor is not a very good job to have in Australia. Still doesn't change the fact that the person who took the job understood what was expected when they took it. I once took a job at a company that assembled wooden skids. There was NO salary, and I was paid as a contracter per piece. It became apparent after 1 day that I was not going to make enough at the job to support myself, so I left the job. That's what we in the real world call responsibility.
@pfarabee Before you were yelping "CHOICE! CHOICE! WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHOICE!!!" and now that I've shown how the choices of the majority can be short circuited by the choices of the minority. You're saying, "suck it up, some times you don't get what you want."
@rubbleofempires the choices of the majority aren't short circuited by the minority in that case. Everyone involved still has a choice to make. The prospective employee needs to weigh the particulars of that opportunity and DECIDE whether or not it is something they will do. You seem to think that the desires of the majority should outweigh the choices of the minority. And yes, suck it up, sometimes you don't get what you want.
Here's a choice for you.. would you rather work 40 hours a week flipping burgers for minimum wage or have me hand you 1 million dollars? Oh wait, nevermind, scratch that second part.. your choice is work 40 hours for minimum wage or not.. it doesn't mean that I "short circuited" your choices because I took the second off the plate.. Just because what you want isn't one of the choices doesn't make it unfair. You are free to choose something else. That's what adults do, make difficult choices.
@rubbleofempires we don't live in a democracy. We live in a republic, and it's a damn good thing we do. A democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner. A republic is the same two wolves and sheep deciding what's for dinner with the understanding that neither sheep nor wolf are on the menu. Democracy leads to idiotic things like a majority voting in California that homosexuals don't have the same rights as others. The minority should NEVER be at the whim of the majority.
@pfarabee So you don't want any more elections? How did homosexuals get the rights they do have? Did the republic grant them these rights? Or did people struggle in the street and have governments (gasp!!) impose laws on private businesses (the horror!!!!) so that homosexuals could be more open about their sexuality?
@rubbleofempires The struggle is not to gain rights, but to recognize rights that already exist. Homosexuals HAVE the right to marry, because heterosexuals do. What is lacking is recognition of those rights. There are even laws that aim to restrict those rights, which should be fought. YOU have the right to apply to McDonalds, or not. It is your choice, same as everyone else. You do NOT have a right to the gains of others, or to have a business do what you want. This isn't rocket science
@pfarabee Pfarbee is obviously an unstoppable intellectual juggernaut. I mean, just look at that argument. 1 Million dollars for free or 40 hours a week at Mickey D's! Come on Pfarbee, have mercy on us underlings and save your intellectually supercharged arguments for the Nobel prize.
@FistfulofDicks an intellectual juggernaut compared to some, I suppose.. say for instance someone who would incorrectly spell the name of one they would attempt to ridicule.
The Swedish Model is something only tested in a single country where prostitution was already not very high (respective to other countries) and the results of the law are largely untestable. While Sweden claims that the number of street prostitutes is down, this is a rather limited part of the aspect as not all prostitutes "work the street", on top of this, in 2010 the number of men reported for paying for sex, has increased. It is entirely plausible the benefits seen in the Swedish (cont)
could be a change of social views of prostitution, it could be a lack of ability to find/locate prostitutes or it could even be evidence of increased policing in the area. It's hard overall to say and that this is one localized sample, to really know if it works or not, it needs to be adapted else where. It shouldn't be assumed it is the responsible part for anything seen until it can truly be tested. Overall I believe that no two countries are the same and results will not mirror (cont)
across the globe. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be researched and tried else where but that what works in one country may not work in another because of varying social views, different cultures and other such things... now there is another system that works similar to the Swedish model, where I come from the UK. Here prostitution strictly speaking is not illegal, however public soliciting, brothels, pimping and paying for sex, are. It's not exactly the same but has striking similarities (cont)
in respect to the Swedish model and if I were to be honest, it doesn't work over here... you don't hear about the advantages of the UK model, even if the UK model is more strict and does on occasion still prosecute the prostitute for working in a brothel. So I accept it's not identical but it is the most similar that I know of and well it doesn't seem to help at all. Which makes me more strongly suspect that what's occurred in Sweden is as a result of public sway, not because of the legislation.
P.S. it should also be noted that Prostitution was already noted to be in decline before the introduction of the legislation of Sweden's Sex Purchase Act and any results could also be as result of an already existing trend... when people quote the Swedish Model, people always speak as if it the law that has caused that effect, but simply put, the evidence for it is limited and potentially misleading due to previous trends and public opinions in Sweden.
@rubbleofempires some of it's on wikipedia, some of it's stuff I have known about previously, it's not something I could source off of the top of the head, tho I am not so much trying to prove the point as I am trying to say it's not the right way to say x worked in country y thus x will work in country z or that idolizing x as a brilliant universal solution to all the problems is a good way to act.
I could attempt to source things but generally speaking it wasn't exactly my purpose behind it
I suppose to put it in a more scientific way, correlation does not equal causation.
And to clarify the position to say the opposite that the legislation had no impact at all and it was a part of a natural trend. That is not what I am after, what I am saying is that it needs to be examined on a larger scale and that if some other countries adopted it we would have a clearer picture to conclude if it is the legislation itself, something the legislation was a catalyst too or something else.
Wsburroughs - in some places, reporting rape is heavily discouraged, I suggest you read up on the sexism in japan before you assume the number of rapes reported has any significance in porn reducing rape.
@cannibalcountry You know what clued me in about Japan? They have a SUPER HIGH conviction rate. That means only slam dunk cases are reported, or ones with MEGA evidence make it through the system. It was a total red flag when I saw the stat, it's TOO high.
Great video but the annotation at the begining, really? I think you're giving her a little too much credit especially when she's shown herself to be intellectually disingenuous time and time again. Just because she's now trying to debate you in the comments section doesn't mean she gets a gold star, especially after the way she used Nubiantribesman's video completely out of context and then said to him she doesn't need to represent anyone fairly with their own words.
"..in 1984, there were 200 women involved in street prostitution, with 30 on the street in peak periods. Currently, the numbers range between 300 and 350 with 50 on the street at any given time. This equals a 100 to 150 percent increase over the last 20 years."
Perhaps you misrepresented these stats here? It would seem to make more sense to say that these numbers represent an increase of 100 to 150 women involved rather than an increase of 100 to 150 percent.
@nightpotato For the same reason it sweatshops should be illegal. If you think sweatshops should be legal I don't really have anything more to say to you.
@rubbleofempires shouldn't be illegal to pay one to work for 24 hours. What should be regulated is FORCING someone to work for 24 hours straight. "We'll pay you double time" is NOT the same as "Do it or you're fired" There are similar correlations in the sex industry.. "They'll pay you double" is NOT the same as "Do it or you'll never work in the industry again" Incentive yes, coercion no. Of course, coercion has long been part of the employer-employee relationship in every industry...
@pfarabee in fact, any time an employer instructs an employee to perform a duty that is outside the scope of employment, there is at least some implied coercion involved.
I once had to wipe human feces off of the bathroom walls at a gas station I worked at. The cleaning company refused to do it, so I was given that choice.. do it or lose my job. Had I brought suit over the matter, I would have been laughed out of court, but it did constitute coercion, and happens every day to millions.
@SaelPalani Noone is arguing that business should not be regulated. The issue has always been how broad and how intrusive that regulation should be. I am in the conservative spectrum regarding government interference in my life. That means less regulation of business, as well as less regulation of my personal social choices. I think it should be legal to smoke pot, as well as legal to work 24 hours straight if you opt to. It's your life, you should be free to make your own choices about it
@onlockinggeisha Yeah. I remembered afterwards that she did have a bit about World War I and stuff but it was all irrelevant to the debate about what should be done now.
I think there needs to be a distinction between whether something should be illegal and saying something shouldn't happen. I agree with you, I'm no fan of prostitution, and you made some very compelling arguments in this video. But I have some misgivings about using violence to prevent it. I'm worried about unintended consequences. A cultural movement undermining male entitlement and the view of a woman's body as a commodity to be sold I'm 100% for. I'm hesitant about taking out the gun.
@Stargazer5781 Very true. I guess then we have to look at both situations. One has a large amount of violence being done to poor people who are largely unable to avoid it. The second option has a smaller amount of violence being done to powerful people who can far more easily avoid it. So the Swedish model is also the less violent option.
@rubbleofempires It's not a matter of simply being opposed to violence. I'm not all that concerned about the health of the pimps and johns. What I am worried about is how they will respond to their behavior being illegal if they continue engaging in it. As I said, I'm worried about unintended consequences, most of which we can't predict. One potential may be - rather than relying on the law to prevent prostitutes from talking, they may personally coerce the prostitutes into silence (cont...)
(…cont) I certainly think the Swedish model is more sane than the model used by most states in the US, but I’d rather see a campaign like they used to eliminate corporal punishment – a mass educational campaign along with laws to protect the prostitutes, rather than laws to attack the pimps and johns. If the prostitutes are harmed it is very easy for them to get help and seek legal protection, and meanwhile the harmful effects of prostitution can be taught to the population. (cont…)
(…cont) That way the prostitutes are protected and the elimination of prostitution emerges out of a change in the mindset of the male john population to not view women as objects to be consumed. Violently suppressing the desire with force of law would, I think, hide and exacerbate the problem, not solve it. That is what I’m worried about, which is why I don’t see a law banning the demand as an ultimate solution. The problem must be revealed and cured, not suppressed.
@Stargazer5781 One thing I don't understand. "I’d rather see a campaign like they used to eliminate corporal punishment" What campaign? Corporal punishment against whom?
@Stargazer5781 I don't know about the US but it's illegal to hit your kids in Australia. Plus it's a side issue really. Whether or not you do an education campaign, which I fully support, you still have to pick a set of laws in relation to prostitution and the Swedish Model is the most just.
@rubbleofempires I understand that. What I'm saying is that I don't want all these people going into hiding. I don't want the Johns and the pimps lurking in the shadows, threatening and bribing women into silence. I want them out in the open and I want them educated and helped to see their problems, and I want the women protected. I certainly find the Swedish model much more sane, no doubt, 100% agree with you on that. But, well, you know what I'm worried about so I won't say it again. Thanks.
@Stargazer5781 They ALREADY DO THAT, do you know the first fucking thing about this subject? He's clearly pointing out that you can protect SOME but as soon as you say, "you have to wear a condom" a market is open and competitive for non condom use and the customers call the shots, the women agree to do things they did not want to do, this is the SAME in pornography which is the industry of legal abuse of prostitutes. They are all pushed by the market to do acts they "get through" for money.
@booboonation I understand that, believe me, I understand that. I was kept up for hours thinking about this and it's not so cut and dry. I'm worried about the black market getting bigger, and there IS evidence that happened in Sweden. And I know two prostitutes in Vegas, a pornstar, a stripper, a woman who does webcam stripping, and they're all intelligent and skilled and not desperate, and they find those jobs worthwhile. Damn it, who am I to tell them they're wrong? I just don't effing know.
@Stargazer5781 "the view of a woman's body as a commodity to be sold" People use my body all time. It's been used to clean other peoples shit off toilets and all other kinds of degrading things, let's end that stuff too.
I don't mean this as an attack as I agree with your opposition to prostitution 100%, but how can you support government enforcement if you're an anarchist?
@TheGravitationist Because socialist anarchists oppose capital and the state. Both are hierarchical power structures. The debate around prostitution doesn't really challenge either of them it just argues about where certain lines should be drawn. The state is still involved in legalisation by by collecting taxes and enforcing regulations etc. So I choose the best option for women and workers.
I have friends in molmo, and the one thing you didn't mention is how Sweden tried total lagalization before they switched to the current model. My friends live in what use to be a brothel and a part of town that had street walkers and heroin addict everywhere. Now it's low income housing, you don't see ANY street walkers. And surprise! Bathing nude is legal on most beaches.
what does it mean to legalize sex industry? is the government creating alternative services, or simply changing laws, if the latter is the case, no wonder it's not catching on in the streets. As for bringing in an additional 100 workers, i see it as saving them from considering the streets. Until massive probably unrealistic social changes happen we gotta deal with the situation as best as possible with real/safe alternatives. Interesting study about condom use, but I doubt it's wide spread.
architect333 6 months ago
If a women wants to have sex for money, i think she should legally be able to do so, I don't think it's wrong, I think it's simply degrading but no different then the range of jobs in other markets. This legalized industry should only run in an approved government system, which means it would still be illegal to have sex workers any where outside this approved industry. stds checks/security/social services offered. If it's regulated how is it any worse then most shity jobs.
architect333 6 months ago
@architect333 Tell you what, go to a bar (if you're a dude go out to a gay bar) and announce, 'For the next 6 hours, I will let any man who wants to fuck me'. When you're done come back online and post about your experience. I reckon you'll be able to think of a couple ways it was worse than a day flipping burgers.
rubbleofempires 6 months ago 3
@rubbleofempires Good idea, cut the"bullshit" would be the ideal thoughts going through the minds of most young men looking for fun. Bars are filled with the intention of sex, promiscuity is quite the norm, and getting paid for it wouldn't be to far a stretch if not for the stigma which pushes this behavior underground. Many choose to do so and would say it kills being a bitch 40h/w. If practiced as described above would these women not have control? Do they not choose this type of work?
architect333 6 months ago
@architect333 Good pay for a few hours a week compared to regular jobs makes it possible, is it not? why would they choose this. If the problem is directly related to pimp control, well simple crack down/long term jail sentences for pimps would fix that.But I think there would still be a scene for easy money, or desperate males, and a legalized scene would protect that market. Otherwise we sexually deprive people leading to bigger criminal problems when there are those willing to do the job. No?
architect333 6 months ago
@architect333 How exactly do you differentiate the tiny minority of women who want to sell sex from the vast majority of prostituted women who were coerced into the life around age 13 and don't know anything else or are just poor or drug addicted and shit out of options? Talk about a needle in a haystack.
NotADood 2 months ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@NotADood well it's easy you separate the issues, create laws and strict penalties for those contributing to victims, and allow those who simply don't go by classic christian culture, or victims of capitalism to choose how to make a living. Again I don't agree with it, but until we can constructively deal with the reality of inequality, were in no place to tell them how they should live.
architect333 1 month ago
@architect333 It's easier to give them other options and throw johns and pimps in jail.
NotADood 1 month ago
@NotADood If it was easier, we wouldn't be in this situation, humans are more likely to take the "easier" path to make a living. But in reality, it's hard to create jobs for uneducated people(were in a modern scientific/tech world), or for those "weak" people (quickly breakdown physically or mentally doing labor), and to top it of, in an environment of poverty, lack of education or values and hope, resulting in crime and desperation all thanks to the greed, and overpopulation.
architect333 1 month ago
@architect333 I've been broke to the point of near homelessness a couple points in my life and have never been tempted to take the "easier" route of sucking strange dick for money. How about yourself? You could do it as easily as anybody. If it's the easier path, why don't you your personal self go out to the high way rest stop men's rooms and make yourself some extra spending money?
NotADood 1 month ago
@NotADood "near homeless" comparisons,and childish conclusions based on your upbringing and environment is just one view of many.When I talk about sex work, it's desperate people looking to get a piece of the pie from those better off. Sex work is a side effect of many issues ranging from overpopulation to class based society (oppression). I've been around,IN THEIR SHOES, I would do it if I had a child to feed, offer hope. or to feed myself. "easier" is relative to circumstances.
architect333 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@NotADood "near homeless" comparisons,and childish conclusions based on your upbringing and environment is just one view of many.When I talk about sex work, it's desperate people looking to get a piece of the pie from those better off. Sex work is a side effect of many issues ranging from overpopulation to class based society (oppression). I've been around,IN THEIR SHOES, I would do it if I had a child to feed, offer hope. or to feed myself. "easier" is relative to circumstances.
architect333 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@NotADood "near homeless" comparisons,and childish conclusions based on your upbringing and environment is just one view of many.When I talk about sex work, it's desperate people looking to get a piece of the pie from those better off. Sex work is a side effect of many issues ranging from overpopulation to class based society Ex:oppression. I've been around,IN THEIR SHOES, I would do it if I had a child to feed, offer hope. or to feed myself. "easier" is relative to circumstances.
architect333 1 month ago
@NotADood "near homeless" comparisons,and childish conclusions based on your upbringing and environment is just one view of many.When I talk about sex work, it's desperate people looking to get a piece of the pie from those better off. Sex work is a side effect of many issues ranging from overpopulation to class based society. I've been around,IN THEIR SHOES, I would do it if I had a child to feed, offer hope. or to feed myself. "easier" is relative to circumstances.
architect333 1 month ago
@NotADood architect has absolutely NO idea what he is talking about. Firstly he obviously has never been a prostitute and secondly he obviously does not know a sex worker personally. Women do not get into this industry because it is a great career choice they end up there mostly because they have had abusive childhoods. I've never met a sex worker who grew up nurtured. One more point I'd like to make is it is NOT easy money. The vast majority of men that visit brothels treat women appallingly.
Joolsie68 1 month ago
@Joolsie68 And once they're in there, they have to convince themselves they're okay with it to make it through. People who talk about it like it's "any other job" obviously have no interest in informing themselves what the lives of prostituted people are actually like. Willful ignorance is the worst kind.
NotADood 1 month ago
look up divinity's videos on the swedish model
mizakzee 9 months ago
This debate is really interesting to me, I dont really know where I stand at the moment, just getting into it. Good video
SatiricalStewie 9 months ago
This is a brilliant video. The only thing I can think to add is that the existence of a legalised industry is also a hideous way to groom women and get them into the illegal sex industry. Girls in school will get the impression that prostitution is a viable career. Also, workers in the relatively vanilla / legal industry will be easier to recruit - along the lines of, "You're already a prostitute, why not be a prostitute who does it without a condom, then you'll earn much more money?"
mickmle1 9 months ago
It's obvious that she wants her profession to be legalized so she won't have to worry about doin time like most of her friends
AllianceOfJerkOffs 1 year ago
And why isn't it legal to pay someone to work for 24 hours straight?
Bellybusterr 1 year ago
@Bellybusterr What differentiates a sweatshop from a regular factory?
rubbleofempires 1 year ago
@rubbleofempires A regular factory is strictly regulated.
Bellybusterr 1 year ago
@Bellybusterr What kinds of regulations do they have? Do they regulate working conditions? If so, How?
rubbleofempires 1 year ago
@rubbleofempires They regulate conditions by law. I see where this is going, You put the good of society as a wholeabove individual rights and i put it the other way around. I am against regulating agreements between consenting adults.
Bellybusterr 1 year ago
@Bellybusterr We're talking about money, not what people want to do. Commercialization is regulated. If a business or commercial practice were to cause harm to thousands of people in numerous ways it should not be condoned. It's not a matter of individual over group, because kidnapped and enslaved people are also individuals, so what people are doing is making a choice between women with choices and prioritizing them above people who don't. Makes no sense.
rememberthediamonds 1 year ago
@rememberthediamonds *without choices. (I make a lot of mistakes in commenting because I'm constantly changing midstream how I'm going to phrase things. )
rememberthediamonds 1 year ago
@rememberthediamonds I can see that point being valid on some other issues but for you to make that argument in this case you will have to show how me giving you a BJ and you paying me for it will cause harm to others. I don't see it.
Bellybusterr 1 year ago
I don't get where this debate is going. How about the woman's right to do whatever she wants with her body? Doesn't that mean anything anymore?
Bellybusterr 1 year ago
ah ok, it doesnt allow links. well, its my latest, posted just now. have a great night!
factcheckme 1 year ago
heres a link to my latest. i link back to your vids twice, not sure how pingbacks etc work on youtube so just wanted to give you a heads up, as i do pick on you a little. thanks for your response earlier.
factcheckme 1 year ago
ok thanks for clarifying. i hadnt ever considered that before, so i was wondering if you made it up, or if you read it somewhere? also, just googled "public assistance and prostitution" and it hit on a book which makes this connection too. Liberalism and prostitution By Peter De Marneffe. i have no idea if its a good book, or anything about the authors politics, but i think its an excellent point. also, delete double post, sorry bout that!
factcheckme 1 year ago
hi rubble. i found your comment on welfare interesting, care to expound on that? (also, source?) here in the US for example, to be eligible for social security disability benefits, you have to be physically or mentally unable to perform ANY JOB thats available in the national economy, to qualify for disability payments. i have never thought about this before, but if prostitution was legal here, you (meaning ONLY WOMEN) would have to be so disabled that you couldnt even fuck, in order to get SSD.
factcheckme 1 year ago
@factcheckme Thanks. I guess my argument was that if you were to remove prostitution from the private market but still provide it (in the way I was suggesting that drugs be provided) you would need to have the government paying. There's not really a source because it was an assertion. But I have found that one way to get people to sympathise (particuarly in Australia where welfare is more common) is to say 'imagine if your welfare was connectd to prostitution.'
rubbleofempires 1 year ago
"but when it comes to prostitution a quality product in the eyes of a customer is sex [and] how they want to have it, regardless of the safety of the prostitutes"
I don't know how you can make that claim. Don't you think that the client wants a safe service? You can't compare service to product, they are not comparable. So why can't a legal service provide the things you listed (other than sex with out a condom)? A regulated industry is still a safer industry than an illegal one.
ReignbowSmite 1 year ago
@ReignbowSmite A regulated industry can still provide any sexual acts a customer wants as long as it falls with in health and safety guidelines. You are making a lot of assumptions about the client here. I can't watch the rest of this video because you are basing it off of an assumption with out evidence at the very beginning.
ReignbowSmite 1 year ago
Last, it's an error to compare prostitution to any other industry-- at all. It's not like drugs. Straightforward regulations that you could apply to any other industry simply cannot be applied to it, unless you make crass errors of thought like making the customer "the boss," or making one side of a business transaction illegal while the other is perfectly moral. In which case, you'll never truthfully know if it's successful because you've damaged your thought process.
wentshow 1 year ago
Maybe things don't translate from Swedish very well, but that commission did not sound independent. Led by the Chancellor of Justice?
Why would anybody pay just to have someone stay up for 24 hours, you idiot. Unless you're trying to propose that exhaustion has a market value, or is a product? If an employer pays you to stay up for 24 hours, it's because he wants you to do something else in that time. So, it would be a stupid comparison to sex.
wentshow 1 year ago 2
You're also better off quoting a comedian than attributing your sources simply by saying "a study says." Yes, that's really much better. Not to much better than just your opinion.
You punish the boss? In what other industry is the customer considered "the boss?" You have to damage yourself mentally to believe this. This would imply also that independent prostitutes are never "the boss." Can you also think of one other $ transaction where one side is legal and the other isn't?
wentshow 1 year ago 2
As for condom use in legal or illegal situations: you have to compare them to something before you judge how good they are. How good are prostitutes about condoms as opposed to, say, dating couples (who BTW, are poor about it) or other polygamous people? Now, as for whether it's worse under legality, for some odd reason, you need something better than a single study. In Nevada (don't get me started about that brothel system) condom use is absolutely enforced. Why did you chose Victoria AU?
wentshow 1 year ago 2
Whereas you've made all the tired arguments against prostitution. The old-tired-argument tired argument is a simple appeal to audience prejudice.Not a good start. There are prostitute websites where the ladies say if you're drunk and acting erratic, I WILL LEAVE, (with your money, BTW). Given client complaints on other websites, some ladies do just this. So, I know your part where the prostitute has to provide the client everything he asks for is mostly bullshit NOW, with prostitution illegal.
wentshow 1 year ago 2
@wentshow Also, that argument depends on a stereotype of prostitute clients, and since preliminary indications are that a quarter of males of ALL socio-economic groups will sometime in their lives pay for sex with a female, any stereotype you make is going to be-- totally incorrect. If there are some studies of prostitutes, studies of clients are almost totally absent. You have neither fact nor evidence to make a prediction about what that group will and won't demand-- but you do it anyway.
wentshow 1 year ago
I love this video. Oh, I don't know if you have access to a research library but I've got some access. My new channel is going to be dedicated to research.
SaelPalani 1 year ago
I'm willing to bet my eyeballs that most of the prostitutes who choose sex for work and the Johns who actually give a fuck (?) about real consent, are unlikely to be affected by the Swedish model. Most of the johns affected by such a model are the ones going for underage prostitutes, street walkers etc. Choice is still there. It's like if someone chooses to smoke pot and is careful, the law can't touch em (of course a lot of pot heads aren't careful, just like a lot of johns).
cannibalcountry 1 year ago
Here's a quaint little idea... what two or more consenting adults do sexually to or with each other is NOONE'S business. Whether money is involved, or a camera, or a consenting audience, changes that in no way. Why can't we stop being so obsessed with what other people do with their private parts?
pfarabee 1 year ago 2
@pfarabee Because when add money to the ecausion it becomes a labour rights issue and it's not just the people involved who are effected by the situation.
rubbleofempires 1 year ago
@rubbleofempires you are assuming an employer-employee relationship. A private citizen performing a service for a fee is not necessarily an employee. Any "license" issued for such work should only be able to certify the health of the worker, as well as any training or safety courses deemed required by law, but should not pertain to specific acts performed. For instance, in your "quality product" list, almost every act you mention SHOULD NOT BE REGULATED.
pfarabee 1 year ago
@pfarabee as an example of one item you listed: anal sex. I'm not a fan of anal sex myself, but why would you assume that someone would need to go to a black market to secure that service? By what right do you suggest that "licensed" prostitutes be barred from performing that service? It is personal choice at that point, and if someone wishes to provide that act, they should be able to for an appropriate fee. Same for sex in someone's home, car, etc. (anywhere sex is legal) Their CHOICE.
pfarabee 1 year ago
“You are assuming an employer-employee relationship. A private citizen performing a service for a fee is not necessarily an employee.”
Whether or not they technically meet the definition of an 'employee' is besides the point. It's still a labor rights issue. In Australia, pizza delivery drivers are hired by the big pizza stores on the basis that they are 'private contractors.' It means they get out of paying the people minimum wage and other benefits... (Cont 1)
rubbleofempires 1 year ago
@rubbleofempires (resume 1) You keep screaming about 'choice,' so let me explain something about choice. Working as a private contractor with no minimum wage is a choice. Working as a genuine employee with a full minimum wage is also a choice. If a worker was presented with a genuine choice between the two, virtually no-one is going to choose to work as a private contractor. (cont 2)
rubbleofempires 1 year ago
@rubbleofempires (resume 2) The problem is that if you make it legal for a worker to sell their labor as a private contractor, many people who would want to choose to work as genuine employee are going to be robbed of that opportunity. Allowing one of the choices means not allowing another one of the choices for everyone else.
rubbleofempires 1 year ago
@rubbleofempires Sounds like pizza contractor is not a very good job to have in Australia. Still doesn't change the fact that the person who took the job understood what was expected when they took it. I once took a job at a company that assembled wooden skids. There was NO salary, and I was paid as a contracter per piece. It became apparent after 1 day that I was not going to make enough at the job to support myself, so I left the job. That's what we in the real world call responsibility.
pfarabee 1 year ago
@pfarabee Before you were yelping "CHOICE! CHOICE! WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHOICE!!!" and now that I've shown how the choices of the majority can be short circuited by the choices of the minority. You're saying, "suck it up, some times you don't get what you want."
rubbleofempires 1 year ago
@rubbleofempires Also the ability to leave a job because it's not as good as you would like is called privilege not responsibility.
rubbleofempires 1 year ago
@rubbleofempires the choices of the majority aren't short circuited by the minority in that case. Everyone involved still has a choice to make. The prospective employee needs to weigh the particulars of that opportunity and DECIDE whether or not it is something they will do. You seem to think that the desires of the majority should outweigh the choices of the minority. And yes, suck it up, sometimes you don't get what you want.
pfarabee 1 year ago
Here's a choice for you.. would you rather work 40 hours a week flipping burgers for minimum wage or have me hand you 1 million dollars? Oh wait, nevermind, scratch that second part.. your choice is work 40 hours for minimum wage or not.. it doesn't mean that I "short circuited" your choices because I took the second off the plate.. Just because what you want isn't one of the choices doesn't make it unfair. You are free to choose something else. That's what adults do, make difficult choices.
pfarabee 1 year ago
@pfarabee "You seem to think that the desires of the majority should outweigh the choices of the minority." I think it's called democracy.
rubbleofempires 1 year ago
@rubbleofempires we don't live in a democracy. We live in a republic, and it's a damn good thing we do. A democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner. A republic is the same two wolves and sheep deciding what's for dinner with the understanding that neither sheep nor wolf are on the menu. Democracy leads to idiotic things like a majority voting in California that homosexuals don't have the same rights as others. The minority should NEVER be at the whim of the majority.
pfarabee 1 year ago
@pfarabee So you don't want any more elections? How did homosexuals get the rights they do have? Did the republic grant them these rights? Or did people struggle in the street and have governments (gasp!!) impose laws on private businesses (the horror!!!!) so that homosexuals could be more open about their sexuality?
rubbleofempires 1 year ago
@rubbleofempires The struggle is not to gain rights, but to recognize rights that already exist. Homosexuals HAVE the right to marry, because heterosexuals do. What is lacking is recognition of those rights. There are even laws that aim to restrict those rights, which should be fought. YOU have the right to apply to McDonalds, or not. It is your choice, same as everyone else. You do NOT have a right to the gains of others, or to have a business do what you want. This isn't rocket science
pfarabee 1 year ago
@pfarabee Pfarbee is obviously an unstoppable intellectual juggernaut. I mean, just look at that argument. 1 Million dollars for free or 40 hours a week at Mickey D's! Come on Pfarbee, have mercy on us underlings and save your intellectually supercharged arguments for the Nobel prize.
FistfulofDicks 1 year ago
@FistfulofDicks an intellectual juggernaut compared to some, I suppose.. say for instance someone who would incorrectly spell the name of one they would attempt to ridicule.
pfarabee 1 year ago
Kickin ass.
FistfulofDicks 1 year ago
Wsburroughs-porn is legal in the US, and we're one of the most violent.
cannibalcountry 1 year ago
The Swedish Model is something only tested in a single country where prostitution was already not very high (respective to other countries) and the results of the law are largely untestable. While Sweden claims that the number of street prostitutes is down, this is a rather limited part of the aspect as not all prostitutes "work the street", on top of this, in 2010 the number of men reported for paying for sex, has increased. It is entirely plausible the benefits seen in the Swedish (cont)
DoomsdayR3sistance 1 year ago
could be a change of social views of prostitution, it could be a lack of ability to find/locate prostitutes or it could even be evidence of increased policing in the area. It's hard overall to say and that this is one localized sample, to really know if it works or not, it needs to be adapted else where. It shouldn't be assumed it is the responsible part for anything seen until it can truly be tested. Overall I believe that no two countries are the same and results will not mirror (cont)
DoomsdayR3sistance 1 year ago
across the globe. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be researched and tried else where but that what works in one country may not work in another because of varying social views, different cultures and other such things... now there is another system that works similar to the Swedish model, where I come from the UK. Here prostitution strictly speaking is not illegal, however public soliciting, brothels, pimping and paying for sex, are. It's not exactly the same but has striking similarities (cont)
DoomsdayR3sistance 1 year ago
in respect to the Swedish model and if I were to be honest, it doesn't work over here... you don't hear about the advantages of the UK model, even if the UK model is more strict and does on occasion still prosecute the prostitute for working in a brothel. So I accept it's not identical but it is the most similar that I know of and well it doesn't seem to help at all. Which makes me more strongly suspect that what's occurred in Sweden is as a result of public sway, not because of the legislation.
DoomsdayR3sistance 1 year ago
P.S. it should also be noted that Prostitution was already noted to be in decline before the introduction of the legislation of Sweden's Sex Purchase Act and any results could also be as result of an already existing trend... when people quote the Swedish Model, people always speak as if it the law that has caused that effect, but simply put, the evidence for it is limited and potentially misleading due to previous trends and public opinions in Sweden.
DoomsdayR3sistance 1 year ago
@DoomsdayR3sistance Interesting. Would you be able to provide any sources for what you talked about?
rubbleofempires 1 year ago
@rubbleofempires some of it's on wikipedia, some of it's stuff I have known about previously, it's not something I could source off of the top of the head, tho I am not so much trying to prove the point as I am trying to say it's not the right way to say x worked in country y thus x will work in country z or that idolizing x as a brilliant universal solution to all the problems is a good way to act.
I could attempt to source things but generally speaking it wasn't exactly my purpose behind it
DoomsdayR3sistance 1 year ago
I suppose to put it in a more scientific way, correlation does not equal causation.
And to clarify the position to say the opposite that the legislation had no impact at all and it was a part of a natural trend. That is not what I am after, what I am saying is that it needs to be examined on a larger scale and that if some other countries adopted it we would have a clearer picture to conclude if it is the legislation itself, something the legislation was a catalyst too or something else.
DoomsdayR3sistance 1 year ago
but da sweeedish moddel doesnt maek sens bcwas it ses yoo can sell sumfing and no wun can biy it
lulz
RadicalSyndicate 1 year ago
Wsburroughs - in some places, reporting rape is heavily discouraged, I suggest you read up on the sexism in japan before you assume the number of rapes reported has any significance in porn reducing rape.
cannibalcountry 1 year ago
@cannibalcountry You know what clued me in about Japan? They have a SUPER HIGH conviction rate. That means only slam dunk cases are reported, or ones with MEGA evidence make it through the system. It was a total red flag when I saw the stat, it's TOO high.
booboonation 1 year ago
Great video but the annotation at the begining, really? I think you're giving her a little too much credit especially when she's shown herself to be intellectually disingenuous time and time again. Just because she's now trying to debate you in the comments section doesn't mean she gets a gold star, especially after the way she used Nubiantribesman's video completely out of context and then said to him she doesn't need to represent anyone fairly with their own words.
shEvoDEevolution 1 year ago
The points you made are good, but ti would have been a better idea to include Nevada itself.
DahStranger 1 year ago
great video!
NubianTribesman 1 year ago
"..in 1984, there were 200 women involved in street prostitution, with 30 on the street in peak periods. Currently, the numbers range between 300 and 350 with 50 on the street at any given time. This equals a 100 to 150 percent increase over the last 20 years."
I'm not a math genius, but this is clearly false.
shameoncanada 1 year ago
@shameoncanada
Perhaps you misrepresented these stats here? It would seem to make more sense to say that these numbers represent an increase of 100 to 150 women involved rather than an increase of 100 to 150 percent.
shameoncanada 1 year ago
And why should it be illegal to pay someone to work for 24 hours straight?
nightpotato 1 year ago
@nightpotato For the same reason it sweatshops should be illegal. If you think sweatshops should be legal I don't really have anything more to say to you.
rubbleofempires 1 year ago 2
@rubbleofempires The more sweatshops the merrier.
nightpotato 1 year ago
@rubbleofempires shouldn't be illegal to pay one to work for 24 hours. What should be regulated is FORCING someone to work for 24 hours straight. "We'll pay you double time" is NOT the same as "Do it or you're fired" There are similar correlations in the sex industry.. "They'll pay you double" is NOT the same as "Do it or you'll never work in the industry again" Incentive yes, coercion no. Of course, coercion has long been part of the employer-employee relationship in every industry...
pfarabee 1 year ago
@pfarabee in fact, any time an employer instructs an employee to perform a duty that is outside the scope of employment, there is at least some implied coercion involved.
I once had to wipe human feces off of the bathroom walls at a gas station I worked at. The cleaning company refused to do it, so I was given that choice.. do it or lose my job. Had I brought suit over the matter, I would have been laughed out of court, but it did constitute coercion, and happens every day to millions.
pfarabee 1 year ago
@pfarabee That's a pathetic argument. It happens so it should keep happening. DERP
SaelPalani 1 year ago
@SaelPalani Noone is arguing that business should not be regulated. The issue has always been how broad and how intrusive that regulation should be. I am in the conservative spectrum regarding government interference in my life. That means less regulation of business, as well as less regulation of my personal social choices. I think it should be legal to smoke pot, as well as legal to work 24 hours straight if you opt to. It's your life, you should be free to make your own choices about it
pfarabee 1 year ago
But if you criminalise demand, where will men be able to get sex from?
Dangerman5 1 year ago
@Dangerman5 :) I know. It does seem a bit harsh.
rubbleofempires 1 year ago
We keep saying this. They don't FUCKING CARE.
booboonation 1 year ago
George Carlin also asked '' How would you like to be a hooker in Bangkok?''
NYatheist 1 year ago
common bitches require graphics.
commonbitchavenger 1 year ago
@commonbitchavenger Woah! How insightful.
rubbleofempires 1 year ago
OMG that video is so fucking stupid. Thank you. I think her only research was a George Carlin skit LMAO.
onlockinggeisha 1 year ago
@onlockinggeisha Yeah. I remembered afterwards that she did have a bit about World War I and stuff but it was all irrelevant to the debate about what should be done now.
rubbleofempires 1 year ago
I think there needs to be a distinction between whether something should be illegal and saying something shouldn't happen. I agree with you, I'm no fan of prostitution, and you made some very compelling arguments in this video. But I have some misgivings about using violence to prevent it. I'm worried about unintended consequences. A cultural movement undermining male entitlement and the view of a woman's body as a commodity to be sold I'm 100% for. I'm hesitant about taking out the gun.
Stargazer5781 1 year ago
@Stargazer5781 Who said anything about guns?
rubbleofempires 1 year ago
@rubbleofempires When you make something illegal you're enforcing it with violence.
Stargazer5781 1 year ago
@Stargazer5781 Very true. I guess then we have to look at both situations. One has a large amount of violence being done to poor people who are largely unable to avoid it. The second option has a smaller amount of violence being done to powerful people who can far more easily avoid it. So the Swedish model is also the less violent option.
rubbleofempires 1 year ago
@rubbleofempires It's not a matter of simply being opposed to violence. I'm not all that concerned about the health of the pimps and johns. What I am worried about is how they will respond to their behavior being illegal if they continue engaging in it. As I said, I'm worried about unintended consequences, most of which we can't predict. One potential may be - rather than relying on the law to prevent prostitutes from talking, they may personally coerce the prostitutes into silence (cont...)
Stargazer5781 1 year ago
(…cont) I certainly think the Swedish model is more sane than the model used by most states in the US, but I’d rather see a campaign like they used to eliminate corporal punishment – a mass educational campaign along with laws to protect the prostitutes, rather than laws to attack the pimps and johns. If the prostitutes are harmed it is very easy for them to get help and seek legal protection, and meanwhile the harmful effects of prostitution can be taught to the population. (cont…)
Stargazer5781 1 year ago
(…cont) That way the prostitutes are protected and the elimination of prostitution emerges out of a change in the mindset of the male john population to not view women as objects to be consumed. Violently suppressing the desire with force of law would, I think, hide and exacerbate the problem, not solve it. That is what I’m worried about, which is why I don’t see a law banning the demand as an ultimate solution. The problem must be revealed and cured, not suppressed.
Stargazer5781 1 year ago
@Stargazer5781 One thing I don't understand. "I’d rather see a campaign like they used to eliminate corporal punishment" What campaign? Corporal punishment against whom?
rubbleofempires 1 year ago
@rubbleofempires Children
Stargazer5781 1 year ago
@Stargazer5781 I don't know about the US but it's illegal to hit your kids in Australia. Plus it's a side issue really. Whether or not you do an education campaign, which I fully support, you still have to pick a set of laws in relation to prostitution and the Swedish Model is the most just.
rubbleofempires 1 year ago
@rubbleofempires I understand that. What I'm saying is that I don't want all these people going into hiding. I don't want the Johns and the pimps lurking in the shadows, threatening and bribing women into silence. I want them out in the open and I want them educated and helped to see their problems, and I want the women protected. I certainly find the Swedish model much more sane, no doubt, 100% agree with you on that. But, well, you know what I'm worried about so I won't say it again. Thanks.
Stargazer5781 1 year ago
@Stargazer5781 They ALREADY DO THAT, do you know the first fucking thing about this subject? He's clearly pointing out that you can protect SOME but as soon as you say, "you have to wear a condom" a market is open and competitive for non condom use and the customers call the shots, the women agree to do things they did not want to do, this is the SAME in pornography which is the industry of legal abuse of prostitutes. They are all pushed by the market to do acts they "get through" for money.
booboonation 1 year ago
@booboonation I understand that, believe me, I understand that. I was kept up for hours thinking about this and it's not so cut and dry. I'm worried about the black market getting bigger, and there IS evidence that happened in Sweden. And I know two prostitutes in Vegas, a pornstar, a stripper, a woman who does webcam stripping, and they're all intelligent and skilled and not desperate, and they find those jobs worthwhile. Damn it, who am I to tell them they're wrong? I just don't effing know.
Stargazer5781 1 year ago
@Stargazer5781 Show me the evidence?
rubbleofempires 1 year ago
@Stargazer5781 "the view of a woman's body as a commodity to be sold" People use my body all time. It's been used to clean other peoples shit off toilets and all other kinds of degrading things, let's end that stuff too.
DiwataMan 1 year ago
Most pro-legalization people dont research a thing about it, its the usual rethorics, devoid of any real understanding. Faved.
vasarasx 1 year ago
I don't mean this as an attack as I agree with your opposition to prostitution 100%, but how can you support government enforcement if you're an anarchist?
TheGravitationist 1 year ago
@TheGravitationist Because socialist anarchists oppose capital and the state. Both are hierarchical power structures. The debate around prostitution doesn't really challenge either of them it just argues about where certain lines should be drawn. The state is still involved in legalisation by by collecting taxes and enforcing regulations etc. So I choose the best option for women and workers.
rubbleofempires 1 year ago
@rubbleofempires
Okay, that makes sense.
TheGravitationist 1 year ago
I have friends in molmo, and the one thing you didn't mention is how Sweden tried total lagalization before they switched to the current model. My friends live in what use to be a brothel and a part of town that had street walkers and heroin addict everywhere. Now it's low income housing, you don't see ANY street walkers. And surprise! Bathing nude is legal on most beaches.
cannibalcountry 1 year ago
@cannibalcountry I did not know that. Interesting.
rubbleofempires 1 year ago
@cannibalcountry Sweden warned the Netherlands when the government made it legal, being able to speak from experience. Now NL is paying a high price.
vasarasx 1 year ago
@cannibalcountry yeah thats a good point.
swedish are sexualy liberated people, but in a normal way with out extravaganzas'.
i always wondered if sweden model can work in a country lets say like romania or poland.
or is it a combination of helthy sexual mentalities/behaviours
from the swedish people, a deeply humanist culture and of course institutional policies/institutions efficiency?
where im getting at;does the swedish model needs swedish people and a swedish state to work?
amet1980 1 year ago