Top 10 Ways For "Worship Leaders" to Hinder the Church (Doug Eaton)

[laccyouth]

This type of stuff may run the risk of perpetuating stereotypes that are no longer deserved in the larger sense. Some of what is mentioned does happen regularly but is almost always unintentional. Worship leaders can be pulled many different ways due to what I would consider a tragic amount of consumerism in the church. Let's start there, and then work inward.

[FToniS]

Good video, thanks.

[fatrock1204]

haha. thanks for that.

[GMLFire]

HA! "if you have to, swear." The best line I've ever seen in a youtube video yet! Love it.

[MrDksmith0617]

Lighten up folks....this is hilarious. I love it when he says that "doctrine and music don't mix." He did forget one thing though...make sure you sing at least one "Jesus is my boyfriend" song. :-)

[RadicalSunday]

If you haven't sold what you have and given it to the poor...the above video doesn't even matter anyway.

[fatrock1204]

3. Speak your opinions without any grace. When people look to you for help in their growth and discipleship, they like to be give a lot of knowledge delivered with judgement, not grace and love. Be as condescending as possible. This is how Truth penetrates the heart.

[fatrock1204]

2. Be arrogant and don't take criticism well. If anyone acknowledges anything negative about anything you do, respond with even more sarcasm in order to make yourself look smart. You always need to look good and anyone criticizing you needs to look bad and stupid. If you need an example, see above for response to daverockgtrist.

[StCausesARuckus]

@fatrock1204 Or you could become prideful and lash back at the one you're complaining about. That always works. If lashing out once doesn't work, you can follow it up with a few more lashes in an OCDish manner to get your point across like a blaring train. Why you're searching you tube for help on being a worship leader is beyond me. Why aren't you on your knees and in the Word for help? If that hasn't occurred to you, you should hold off on being a Worship leader.

[fatrock1204]

"How to hinder people from caring what you have to say" ::

1. Definitely be sarcastic. Be as sarcastic as you can...I mean lay it on thick. Students love to feel small compared to teachers and sarcasm is a great way to show them how smart and right you are and how small and dumb they are. If you want to a great leader, you have to learn sarcasm.

[formerpraiseleader]

Thank you for pointing out some problems with the evangelical church. Here's one more...musical training. It is often considered a detriment to have training, as if the Holy Spirit cannot work if a person has classical training. The Levites who led worship in the OT were highly skilled. Now highly skilled musicians in the fine arts are thought to be dead and useless in the church. Thank you!

[chris020150]

i got really confused by this video :s

[zurielone]

This doesn't build up and encourage the kingdom of God. Yu make good points but the sarcasim and negativity are not building anything... do 10 way for a worship leader to encourage the church. 

[thornry]

So if a god puts a new song in the worship leaders heart, he is to discard it for the sake of historical reverence?

Wake up God is alive and speaking to his people all the time, he is a God of all generations so what if the 'sound' of worship changes, as long as the core of worship is the same

[sonnydaydreamer]

great!

[Megentheria]

You are EXACTLY right. I see some of this sprouting from time to time.,..they actually say that they don't want to sing the "old songs", and have indoctrinated some of the younger ones who are gullible to ape the same statements!!

[Justasimpleservant]

lol!!!

[luvinatlanta]

Hilarious! Thanks for sharing this, you are right on!!!

[POforLIFE]

extremely false teacher! u will regret it buddy. make u sure read the real bible more. its an abomination to maek it about ur self and the other things u have said!

[RandPhoenix]

The satire could have been much sharper and more subtle. I like the point, but this can't really be called satire, or even all that great of sarcasm. *shrug*

[Mark51580]

is this some kid of comedy routine?

[reginaDexant]

Sadly, this sounds like our "worship" leader. I'm so sorry about it. Once in awhile to appease the older people, we will play the old songs like "Great is Thy Faithfulness",

The whole church participates with true reverence and joy, they drown out the "band". The sheep are starving while the goats are being entertained. Too bad.Remember Jesus said "If you love me, feed my sheep", He did not command us to entertain the goats.

[natebr91]

@daverockgtrist

I'm with ya. I know he means well but it is just a little much.

[Musicislove123]

To the poster of this video. This is perhaps the best put together list of things regarding worship leaders I've seen on youtube. Thank you for posting this video and to Doug for making this video. It has really helped me to see some issues I have in my own personal worship, and I am going to start praying for God to help me change.

[kdewalt01]

your kidding me right?????

[JustinMartin87]

only play new stuff, hahaha. Oh my gosh, well spoken. There is so much truth in old songs. A good challenge to all worship pleaders, it is all for Gods glory, not ours. Thank you sir.

[YodatheJedi12]

Why don't you mention the "Prosperity Gospel?"

[Mszacoustics]

Omg! devil worshiper!

[berean1129]

Summary: Doctrine is hollow,use loud rock to hurt ears, worship is about performing so use a fog machine, only play new music and cut off the historic church, mind numbing music is good, choose songs that are complicated, worship is about us not God, make sure you get emotional for emotions sake, don't sing Biblical songs,make sure worship is relevant so use profanity in 'worship.'........... What keeps the true Church alive is preaching the Gospel not trying to be relevant..FALSE TEACHER!

[serenitylova]

I think, no I know this video is EXCELLENT! I believe if it is not for you, than you just move on. I have been a worship leader for about 8 years now and every point that you've made, I have seen in the churches. Its time for worship leaders to Advance the Kingdom of God. Period! I believe some worship leaders need to hear these sarcastic points in order to see that there job is serious and some bad decisions can hinder growth, not just in the church but in the Kingdom of God. God bless!

[AprilSixth]

I can't tell if you're serious or not. But if you're against EVERYTHING you said, then I guess I agree with your disagreement.

[Loofty777]

haha, this is actually really funny. Like the vid mang, God Bless

[tboladave]

Really Unhelpful

[JesusFocused]

I appreciate the intention but I'm not a fan of the sarcasm. Honey attracts more flies than vinegar!

[mackorone2]

I agree with daverockgtrist. I came to this video hoping to find some useful advice for making my worship completely God-centered and all about him. However, i was confused from the start of the video, because I didn't really agree with what you were saying...Lanech, I don't think that davrockgtrist was trying to take any cheap shots against you or anything like that, but rather was just stating his honest opinion of the video

[beckham2856]

Who are you to tell us how to worship. What works for me works for me and gets me closer to God, so whats it to you how i worship as long as it works. I think this is incredibly ignorant and not of God. Check yourself

[ateamacademy]

Cracking me up... "bursting or longing"... lol.

[LouieG7777]

Very funny lol...

[mythoughts777]

Hi Doug I agree with all of your points. Very good! However; I also agree it would have been better communicated as straight forward points of what not 2 do. I understand what the young worship leader is saying. When you R trying 2 effectively learn how 2 B a good worship leader, Especially N the beginning, U R hungry & searching 4 Godly wisdom 2 lead. You R wanting something clear & straight forward. This was good, but I'd love 2 hear a direct teaching from U on the subject of worship.

[BigPiePublishing]

I think of repeating as meditating. If a song is scriptural let's repeat.

Also, you make some good points but sarcasm is a lower form of communication. I'm speaking as one who hid behind sarcasm for years. I don't sense you are doing that but I think you should consider a more effective approach. Sarcasm puts up walls. The people who agree with you will always love it. Don't mistake their support for effectively reaching the one's who disagree.

Nevertheless, some very good points.

[Dunamisdude]

I love these videos. What was scary is that the church I currently attend does about 8 of these things....kind of scary.

[crunchyorange]

It's amazing how many Christians miss the gift of sarcasm. It is a gift - isn't it?

[mythoughts777]

@crunchyorange No sarcasm isn't a gift. It's just sarcasm. : - ) However; I do believe humor is a gift. I think Doug made excellent points, I totally agree, but would also enjoy hearing & learning his points in a straight forward teaching. That's just my opinion, even if I'm right. Oh wait, was that sarcasm or humor? Hopefully taken as humor. I'm sure Doug's intent was humor & not sarcasm also. Again, just my opinion. : - )

[knightsofgodvbs]

never would agree dude! How a postmodern generation worships must illude you- sing a new song to the Lord is actually in the Bible- so new songs should be sung- and all you are doing is putting up barriers, the last thing the church needs right now. We are in a crisis in which no one gets what Christianity is for because we're too busy telling them what we're against-

And for the record- go to a church with lights dimmed and lights and loud music, and still praise God- songs about God!!!!

[abmendoza1]

no comprendo. i really dont understand.

[ServentOfTheSon]

HE is so wrong when it comes around worship we shall not look at ourselves, worship is about worshiping God, for whom he is, beautiful lovely ect..

But we must sing it from our soul not from our mouth.

He is speaking to much about this world´s ways we shall not copy the world but liv in the spirit of God.

There is not much that i agree on with this guy.

God bless you all!

[rone333]

The sarcasm is grating but the points are very valid....

[ibgroovin2]

Simply put, the acronym for EGO = Edging God Out.

[GoetzJordan]

good points in this video!!! of course, like anything else, eat the meat and spit the bones out, or just put the bones aside and periodically check to make sure they are still bones

[saeljenkins]

Haha I love this! It's great.

[teacherclaire]

I dont agree all on what he had said.. but anyway,, thanks

[newcreation06]

God BLess :D

[newcreation06]

hahaha

i love the obvious message in this video, thank you for posting this, it speaks loud.

[jesussbravesoul]

Message interpretation:

1. Too much self is involve (flesh) 2. too much hype 3. To much attention on self and not on our Heavenly Father 4. Find the right method 5. Reduncacy is monotonmy 6. Rely on self instead of God 7. So again, focus off God and on flesh 8. Be emotional dramatic actors 9. Candy coat everything

10. Use scare tactics and condemn!

[GoetzJordan]

lolz

[WilliamFrancisWelsh]

Hmmm. Sounds like someone has their knickers in a knot. Doug obviously has a beef with what is happening in current worship. I'd love to read, hear or see a serious straight forward statement about what he's really responding to and asking for. Does he want controlled, emotionally detached, traditional hymn-based, non-instrumental or at least quiet acoustic congregational worship.

[jcarh]

Sarcasm can be affective as long as you realize it is axiomatically an offense, useful as a catalyst for thought, especially with the audience it is pointed at. The Word is described as water...water is fluid and though it has a form it will fit take on the shape of the container. Sarcasm must not stand separate from the love of the God.

[Donaldmccaig]

Yep. There are actually several cases of Paul using sarcasm.

[jcarh]

I actually think he makes some relevant and very important points. I just think we need to consider if being sarcastic hinders the Church.

[the13thof12]

Ask Paul. He used sarcasm.

[daverockgtrist]

I understand what Doug is trying to get across, but the sarcasm of this post is counterproductive. As a young worship leader, I looked this up to try and improve myself, but I had to weed out his backwards sarcasm to get to what he was trying to explain, and didnt agree with a lot of it. This would have been far more edifying as a "don't do this because it hinders worship leading" This post satisfied Doug's desire to be satirical, but fell short of being effective for me.

[LaneCh]

So basically your complaint dwindles down to:

1) you have trouble "weeding out" sarcasm that other people obviously have no trouble with and

2) you didn't find it effective for yourself.

Thanks for sharing. When we intend to make further videos to meet your approval, we'll be sure to let you know before we post them for your seal.

[daverockgtrist]

No, thank YOU for responding so graciously. Obviously your first reaction is to attack whoever disagrees. Thanks for embodying the mission of the Body of Christ by being so rational in your response. Usually the point of posting a video is to receive responses, but you dont seem to be interested in any viewpoints that don't agree with your own. Others disagreed and were quite vocal about it, but you chose to attack ME. Thans for reinforcing to me how to interact with other believers.

[zb0430]

@LaneCh Dear sir, you need to take a look at edification of the Body. It's encouraging that you're motivated to share and post what is on your heart, but be mindful of how your posts and comments affect others and take feedback without attacking the giver.

[DanLee8884]

@LaneCh way to be loving...haha...

[Incenerater]

@LaneCh I don't understand attacking someone who commented on your video. Do we expect to treat people like this and then have them come to church? Love of Christ?

[lesingarson10]

@daverockgtrist thats good, now go ahead and go back to your church and dont change! and see if the power of GOD one day falls in due to genuine hearts praising and worshiping!

[northerncal98]

Some good points about drawing all attention to the worship leader, but seriously...check your heart man!

What's your "correct" way to lead worship? Obviously you have it all figured out. This video smacks of legalism...hard core! Remember the church hymns? Many were old "drinking songs" that were the popular style of the day? Yup!

Is His Church perfect? No. Is a one-man pastor-driven church scriptural? No? The question is, what is your solution? Are people drawn to you with your love?

[weeweelegs]

amen, we're to lift Yeshua up,

not ourselfs,

a lot of these churches have very little

docrine, what ever happen to

Blessed Asurance, Are You Washed

In The Blood. e.t.c great video bro

[MrBysa]

seems to me that we are to uplift one another in service to God.

[weeweelegs]

in worship we're to lift God up,

Jesus said , if I be lifted up [JESUS]

I will draw all men unto me,

yes as believers we're to build each

other up in love, the Lords prayer starts

with praising God,

[kobi4u]

Yeshua bless you for this video. How many young people are being deceived by so called worship leaders who aren't saved. Adonai is looking for humble hearts, not proud and hard hearted and self seeking wolves in sheeps clothing.

[karatemomma]

this is good

[MtelH]

I like this.

[ScrapGoldBass]

the heart and mind should be in accord with eachother as we reflect on the truth of God. they should not be separated as you say. This separation idea is not Biblical.

[MtelH]

He's talking about ways to hinder the church. Basically, you do the opposite.

[xxxrokkstarrxxx]

I'd like to see a "Top 10 Ways the Church Hinders the Development of Mankind" video.

[SatChurchAU]

mankind is pretty good at doing that itself

[xxxrokkstarrxxx]

Simply pointing out that 'mankind is pretty good at doing that itself' tells us NOTHING about WHY we do that or what sort of behaviors we could say 'hinder' our continued growth and development.

Your statement is a prime example of WHY 'the Church' hinders our growth and development; you're only stating the obvious. You've proposed a vacant explanation for a problem that is actually an observation of the problem itself; NOT a reasoned investigation into what the CAUSE of the problem is.

[BarmherzigkeitMusik]

"development of mankind" = gradually embracing more and more sin as "ok"

That would be more properly termed, the peril of mankind.

[xxxrokkstarrxxx]

"gradually embracing more and more sin as "ok""

Even a casual look into world history shows that mankind is DEVELOPING a higher standard of living, while things once considered socially acceptable such as public executions, torture, overt racism, slavery, etc; are no longer tolerated by the general public and we continue to progress in this respect.

While you're burying your head in the sand, pretending the world is ending; the rest of us are developing quite nicely without you.

[BarmherzigkeitMusik]

The American, Evangelical Protestant church (nor any other church that I know of) does not usurp the responsibilities of the state (executions) and does not endorse torture, racism, slavery, and so on, so you really fail to make a point on that front. With respect to other things (homosexual "marriage," abortion, etc.) that most non-believers think of as "progress" today, I would respond,

"There is a way that seems right to a man,

but its end is the way to death." ~Proverbs 14:12

[xxxrokkstarrxxx]

Parroting Bible verses only highlights your inability to form opinions based on reasonable consideration of evidence. Citing gay marriage as an example of society's declining morals is ironically nothing more than an example of your vacuous intellect.

Mankind has come a long way since public stonings were a social norm and different races were viewed as subhuman. No matter how hard you try, no amount of wishful thinking will make reality mold itself around your warped perception of it.

[BarmherzigkeitMusik]

As soon as you stoop to insult the person with whom you are conversing with, you have "won" the argument, but lost all respect.

[xxxrokkstarrxxx]

"As soon as you stoop to insult the person with whom you are conversing with, you have "won" the argument, but lost all respect."

Doomsday proselytizing, religious nihilism, and blatant pervasion of bigoted hate speech are not worthy of respect no matter how thick the silver lining. Insults are actually above you, I was simply being honest.

[redjet166]

I understand your points...and I get the satire...but surely there's a more constructive (and less sarcastic) way of pointing out the things wrong with some modern worship, and a way of offering some real solutions?

I think God's spirit is stronger than the ability (or inability) of any worship leader. Sure, people get distracted by certain things, but God has the ability to transcend any folly in worship.

[Brutangel22]

Notice it's not "10 ways to trump God." It's hindering. God can work through anything that decalres Him (as Rick Warren and Joel Osteen prove) even through al the humanity. But we can stir up trouble, and strife, and disunity.

By the way, real solutions would be the opposites like

#1 Make sure your worship has sound doctrine.

#2 Just don't be stupid with the volume.

#3 Make sure all the attention is on God.

[Brutangel22]

#4 Play what is edifying, new or old, with remembrance of those who have gone up before us.

#5 Make sure that doctrine has its place in worship, and isn't put aside for catchiness.

#6 Play within your talent, and let God do the work.

#7 Make sure all the focus is on God, and what he does.

#8 Leave emotion to God's work, and sing what is full of Biblical truth.

#9 Put the theological truth in the songs, not just vague niceties.

#10 Don't let yourself and the a trend get in the way of truth.

[hecaresforyou]

Rick Warren and Osteen are completely politically correct "ministers". The word says to "boldly proclaim the truth." The apostle Paul stirred things up and casused trouble EVERYWHERE he went by proclaiming truth. God says that "the TRUTH is an offense to the world" as well as some christians who are not where they should be. If obeying Gods word by declaring the truth is trouble, strife and disunity, then I wil gladly be all those things in obedience to Gods word. Dont wimp out for the MTV crowd

[Brutangel22]

Ii don't see where our argument is. Of course I'm not OK with Warrwen or Osteen, and the way things look, barring repentance, MR. Osteen best prepare for some harsh judgements. My argument was that God can work through even these "ministers" to complete his purposes. It is well known that several people, saved in Warren's church, left because they wanted the Word preached. So they were saved, obviously. Or else they'd hate the Word and be comfortable under Warren.

[hecaresforyou]

I see your point and agree. I personally don't believe, according to his word, He would use even the worse ministers because He said "My word will not return unto me void". The key here is HIS word. Not the motivational ramblings of the mentioned ministers. I think were on the same page. Thanks for the kind response too. Many are not to kind who respond. God Bless.

[abishai01]

give the increase..as for secular music with changed lyrics...dave wilkinson said 'I will plunder the gates of hell and not let the devil have one note for his own' you know lucifer was the lord of music. I will rob him of every thing I can because the wealth of the wicked is stored for the rightious...God bless and Amen

[abishai01]

I absolutely adore Jesus..I can think of no other thing I like doing more than grabbing my guitar and praising Him..I strongly feel that lyrics need to tell a story that revolves around the type of song it is..praises ...glory....testify...I mean its all relevant and God smiles down at any joyful noise made to Him..it is about the heart if 1st cor 13 explains it..If your music or song has no Love (heart) then your words fall flat ..If your led by the spirit when you write a song God will give

[beblackmon00]

hahaha..... Should have gone as a countdown. The truth is always so funny. Good message

[chakolo]

haha this vid is good!

thx!!

[almost99]

I wonder if Jesus was on the Pharisees' top 10 list for how not to be the Messiah.

[hecaresforyou]

Sorry to say, but yes he was! And it was more than ten.

[almost99]

You missed my sarcasm--not hard when we're "talking" in text.

My point is that we need to be careful when we're making lists of what worship isn't. Let's be positive and encourage one another in what worship is. Grace and Peace.

[gunkis84]

one quick one

1 way to hinder your worship time with God

...be self righteous and focus on everything the worship leader is doing wrong...

[catchsu11]

Amen to that! I was thinking the same exact thing..:)

[tiawaddauthink]

how about pillow of ages fluffed for me

[nedlund]

why is ten reasons, oh yes ten sounds good. good work mate love it

[johnny102marvin]

You are the air that I breathe. The air that I breathe is you. Breathe the air that I breathe. I thank you for the air that I breathe that is you. Breathe the air that I breathe because it's you.

Now that song really has a theological message about salvation and heaven !!!

[briandavison211]

Actually you could express the same feelings about God using the Hollies "sometimes. all I need is the air that I breathe and to love you..."

[deadmansvidblog]

lol appreciate good satire. i can dig it

[djbro16]

how about, make all your worship songs feminine and without any form of masculinity.

[LaneCh]

That's definitely one... sadly. There's a theologian who calls it "Jesus is my boyfriend" music. :)

[Incenerater]

@LaneCh We are the bride of Christ...

[janeym]

@LaneCh "hooooold me clooooose, let your love surrouuuuuunnnnnd meeeeeee." YUCK.

[obenonekenobe]

Excellent Doug. Is there a transcript available anywhere for this or any of the series?

[LaneCh]

Not that I'm aware of, though Doug may have notes for this somewhere.

[Create8Create]

What about blending in secular tunes and lyrics, into praise and worship, so that I can think about the life that I used to live, instead of God? That'd be great! lol

[Waldir1976]

Thank you brother! This message has blessed my life and has challenged me in so many ways. There are indeed many who believe that worship is trendsetting and you have to be up to date but God says to worship Him in Spirit and in truth. Thanks may God richly bless you and your ministry.

[vico100]

wow...he looks so different from his other video (on youth..)

[deaton29]

I had just got of a five day stay in the hospital when I shot the youth leader one. I was still a bit unhealty.

[TheBestharold]

I love the way that this sermon is presented keep going on thank you for the truth

[bibliosca]

many are called but few are chosen, ...many are preached to, but few trully repent

[speedgsx98]

Doug. again, so right on. I'm also a former worship leader. I took my job as a worship leader very seriously. My job was to lead others into worship. Gee, what a concept. I would take inventory of the congregation or youth group's progress. Sometimes those who distract had to be dismissed(youth group) and I would have to encourage people and remind them of who we are, who God is, and what worship is all about! If we can't get excited/reverent with our Creator, we need to assess our faith. thanx

[Jarrod289]

I get the feeling your a calvanist and I would love if you are for you to send me all the scriptural support you have for it. I like to be well informed on what I believe and I admit I am not sure of alot of the scriptural evidence for calvanism.

[LaneCh]

I just posted a very insightful video about it today. :) It's called "Does God Predestine Some Men to Hell?" Even if you don't agree with it, it does accurately portray what the true Calvinist believes. There are two more that I posted recently too (Is Unbelief Sin and You're Saved Because God Chose You First...) As far as Scripture for Calvinism, where do I begin? :)

(John 6:37-44, Eph. 1-2, Romans 8-9) are some famous proof texts)

[Jarrod289]

pretty much whenit comes right down to it I am an arminian who agrees with to points of calvanist. Total depravity and Irresistible grace. If God pours His love, mercy, and grace out on you then I really can't believe you can resist it. So in essence I believe God can either overwhelm you with His grace or He can draw you in through the words He speaks through others and that sometimes there is a strange combinatiion of both.

[Jarrod289]

To be perfectly honest your asking if I am a calvinist or and arminian and I would say neither. I tend to lead toward arminianism because for one John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Whosoever believes that alone I thing disproves the elect of calvinism. If it was strictly the elect who could be saved then why not so that the elect should have eternal life?

[fruitofspirit]

ROFL!!!

I know Doug from Godtube--he's one of my FAVES! He's like God's Own Cousin Skeeter, "Just keepin it real!"

[Jarrod289]

1 corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Also paul he was speaking of anything contrary to the gospel of Christ when he was speaking in Rom 16:17. I have nothing against doctrine but the only doctrine thats truly of any matter is that of the gospel. Also any that is contrary to the gospel because it is wrong, but the details of alot of why we believe what we believe shouldn't matter. It is all about "Christ and Him crucified."

[LaneCh]

So how is a person saved? Is it by their decision made in their free-will or is it God who gives spiritual life to the dead sinner?

[usenetposts]

Both. From the perspective of the sinner it is a free-will decision, from the perspective of God it is a gift of faith. But the Christian only learns this later. Spurgeon puts it that you have to go through the school of repentance and faith to arrive at the university of calling and election. It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy, and if we believed that it depended on the quality of our persuasion nobody would even dare evangelise.

[LaneCh]

Spurgeon did sermons against the notion of free will including "Free-Will: A Slave" in which he made the following quote:

"It has already been proved beyond all controversy that free-will is nonsense. Freedom cannot belong to will any more than ponderability can belong to electricity. They are altogether different things."

[usenetposts]

He said many such things, but always in several paragraphs of context. If the word of God says "seek the Lord" "choose ye this day whom ye will serve", etc, then it is clearly not unholy to refer to free-will that in a sense they have. God tells us to choose and believe as if we have the choice, and God does not talk nonsense, by the way. So even though I am a Calvinist, I have to remain aware of how different takes of freedom of will make perfect sense from different levels and perspectives.

[LaneCh]

Even though the Bible does give commands like "choose", no where does it say that we have the ability to do so in and of ourselves. Those are two different things, and to say that because the Bible says, "Choose this day..." is like saying that if God said, "Jump 20 feet in the air..." that must mean that we can do it in and of ourselves. Can you provide even one Scripture that says that man's will is free and not merely Scripture that says "Choose..."?

[usenetposts]

Man's will is not free, but that is not the essence of the gospel we are called to preach. We are told to tell people to come, to repent, to believe. We are not told to tell them "I'm supposed to tell you to come, repent and believe, but what I'm gonna tell you instead is that you won't be able to unless God gives you the ability". To preach to the lost in that way is disobedience. They will know in God's time that they have Him to thank for their coming to Him.

[LaneCh]

"To preach to the lost in that way is disobedience."

Then you hold that Jesus was disobedient because when He was preaching to unbelievers, He said, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." (Joh 6:44a) After He preached that, we're told that "many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him." (Joh 6:66)

Well, there goes that notion of yours. Any other unbiblical points you'd like to raise?

[usenetposts]

I think you need to make your mind up. Within a single comment you have stated that He was preaching to unbelievers and to His disciples. Which was it? I'll give you a clue - you answered your own question. Now get smart and start thinking at more than one level on the matter, and stop trying to oversimplify what in fact is an amazingly huge and mysterious topic.

[LaneCh]

"Within a single comment you have stated that He was preaching to unbelievers and to His disciples."

Um... first I didn't state that. Even though that's the truth, I didn't say it. He was preaching to both, but the verse says that MANY of those who were His disciples turned back meaning that they weren't truly His disciples. If it's that easy to understand why not keep it simple?  Ah, because if "we can't understand it", you have an argument... I see.

[usenetposts]

I'm not trying to have an argument, I don't know why you are picking a fight with me over every comment, when actually I am a calvinist anyway, just one who happens to believe in evangelism. If you feel it necessary, go ahead anyway.

[LaneCh]

"I'm not trying to have an argument"

Yet in every comment you've made you've been submitting arguments. Your last comment is just an attempt to demonize me and/or my position because you cannot refute it. It's that plain and simple. If you really were a Calvinist, you wouldn't appeal to emotion instead of logical argumentation like Arminians do, and you certainly wouldn't be advocating free-will. Why don't you actually address the points I've made instead of resorting to pejorative rhetoric?

[usenetposts]

Of course I am a Calvinist, and I haven't appealed to any emotions, which is not the definition of Arminianism, btw. I haven't used rhetoric, pejorative or otherwise. Please do not lie about me, as this is not pleasing to God. The points of Calvinism, TULIP, all support the Lutheran thesis of the bondage of the will, but our will is in in bondage as regards works rather than faith. We are able to make an elective choice to believe as the scriptures actually tell people to make this choice.

[Peacy]

wow, I love this guy! so true

[Jarrod289]

Well you have 9 good ways to hinder God moving, but #1 doctrine is about the head and it splits the church. How are we one body of christ? when we as the american church can't do anything but argue over who has the right doctrine. How do we channge the world when we put our doctrine in front of the base that Jesus is the sond of God He was born of a virgin, crucified, died, and the rose again defeating sin and making a way for us to get to the Father. That's about the only doctrine that matters.

[LaneCh]

Well, that's according to you, but according to Paul the Apostle, "I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them."(Rom 16:17)

Paul regarded doctrine as something so important that if someone brought a different doctrine they were to "split the church" as you put it.  I think I'll stick with the admonitions of the apostle chosen by Jesus Christ.

[LaneCh]

By the way, do you even know what the word "doctrine" means? I'd be interested to know if you know.

[briandavison211]

It doesn't have to be controversial doctrine! Songs that remind us of the wonder of trinity, the amazing truth that God came down among us in incarnation, the knowledge that eh Almighty is present among us, and in each of us (immanence and indwelling) - all of these are doctrine, that blow our minds and lift us to glorify him in worship.

Love the Lord you God with heart mind and soul and use the lot in worship - that's what he's getting at

[mumpty]

Have you been speaking to the song leaders at Hillsong (oooooooch)

[Calvinist4Christ]

"It's about the heart not about the mind!"

Wow, so many churches practice this, it's horrible....

[usenetposts]

Salvation is not entertainment. If people are only lured to come to the House of God as to a concert, then this is purely placing themselves and their carnal appetites at the centre, and not the sovereignty of God.

Great hymns used to be composed, and they have been neglected in favour of childish ditties where neither the language, nor the ideas, nor even the chord progressions have anything to do with what passed for worship all the way through history. I would not offer this trash to God.

[stonehenge1000]

Hmmm. How does your profile page honor the Lord. All I see are many videos of you. I find it interesting that you want to have over 1000 subscribers in 2008, focused on you and the videos you create. Perhaps your creativity, energy, and time would be better spent honering Jesus. If you could bring 1000 lost sheep to Christ, that would be impressive.

[usenetposts]

I would be happy to bring one, dear brother. Nevertheless, the absence of overtly Christian themes in the first sight is intended to enable non-believing people to engage with me as a normal, non-threatening to them person, and then when they listen to what I have to say they don't have the barriers up so much, God willing. This is not a church and so I don't try to use the rules here which I certainly believe should apply there. You are welcome to pray for the success of the modest work I do.

[AmosPressley]

Sir, you are now my hero. I lead singing in an AnaBaptist church in SC. God has been kind to us by giving us able musicians and people that love to learn and to sing the old hymns "lustily and with good courage" as Wesley said.

But we know that the wolf is at the door, dressed up as the nicest sheep, ready to infect our worship with entertainment. May God give us all discernment.

[AmosPressley]

Jesus said the Father seeks for people to worship Him in Spirit and Truth. It is amazing how we have allowed these dollar-driven, entertainment-centered methods and music to permeate and infect us.

Looking around at the mess we have made, I cannot help but think we should stop asking that God bless our services. Instead we should ask that He INSTRUCT us so that we will do only the things he CAN bless. May we listen to that instruction!

[mdkbdshan]

Funny and sad.

[nevets815]

I agree. I play the guitar at my church and I stand in the corner so I can focus fully on God and worshiping him. I agree that we shouldn't make worship a show for the crowd, but for God, you know? I hate it when a church will have spotlights on the band or singer. I am trying to get our band at church to play at the four corners of the walls. I think that would be cool, because everyone can focus on God instead of how they look.

God Bless!

[stonehenge1000]

Hopefully not an electric guitar. Those abominations have no place in church. We don't need bands or organs in Church anyway just our voices singing the old hymns to praise Jesus. Perhaps you would like to put the pastor behind a screen as well so the faithful don't focus on him, and just focus on the word of God.

[nevets815]

wow, now you are just making fun of a serious issue. I believe in using my God given talent to glorify and honor Him. How is a guitar or and organ an abomination. The Pastor is a different issue, He is a teacher, he is meant to have the attention of the church. Pastors are not for entertainment, they are for educating, teachers dont hide, they have the full attention of the church. Worship bands are not for the congregation, but for God.

[giccsi]

Very true, thank you! Let the worshippers arise who praise the Lord in Spirit and truth, with heart and mind and will!

[jme1976]

Yep a lot of churches need to hear this!

[PreachReality]

You've got a good head on your shoulders.

[hrhqueene]

Ooooooooo...sending this one around!