Calvinism and Arminianism: Biblical Balance. Frank and Earnest 3.

[willpower242]

Calvinism/Doctrines of Grace/Reformed Theology are from the pit of Hell..they are heresies that make God Almighty a sinner and not just a sinner but the Author of ALL sin.

Every child raped..every women beaten..every person murdered..every deceitful business deal...every cruelty man has done, was authored by God. It is a blasphemous false religion and many otherwise fine Bible teachers are promoting it today. MacArthur, Sproul, Piper, are some of them. Flee from Calvinism. Repent of Calvinism!

[fandediscussions]

@willpower242 - No, sorry. You are wrong, too. It is an attempt to oversimplify the Bible. When you try to oversimplify a complex God, you end up with real problems in your theology. Both Calvinism and Armineanism exhibit these problems, as both result from the same desire to apply a doctrinal straightjacket of man's making to God's much more complex truth. Both end up with a lesser God - just lesser in different ways.

[willpower242]

@fandediscussions your comment makes no sense........try again be more specific. I dont think you have thought thru the logical implications of the philosophy of Calvinism........it is not Biblical. It is not orthodox.

[fandediscussions]

@willpower242 - Calvinism and Armineanism are opposite extremes on a theological spectrum. Everyone who has a theological position falls somewhere on that spectrum. That is why Biblical balance is needed.

BTW - if God knows everything before it happens, and still chose to make man, than He can also be accused of being the author of all sin... (Not properly, but that accusation is often made.)

[skalapunk]

@willpower242 Assertions are meaningless bro. You're like a bull in a china shop, romping around on an emotional rant, thinking you're doing good but destroying things.

[skalapunk]

The fact is brother you failed to show any verses in the bible that teach that man has a free will. Show me some verses that say man's will is neither inclined towards evil or holiness, but is right in the middle, able to choose either just as easily as the other. My bible says man's heart is inclined towards evil from his youth. in fact "every thought and intention of his heart" is so. That's not free will. That's a will in bondage to sin. Slavery to sin.

[fandediscussions]

@skalapunk - You exhibit classic "build a straw man that you can tear down" technique. Only the very theologically simplistic have this view of free will. Listen again to the video, and try to actually understand it before commenting again. Human choice is the method Jesus Christ specifically says that the Father uses to activate the universal offer of human salvation.

[astherrien]

Interesting way of thinking. I still must disagree.

[fandediscussions]

@astherrien - You won't be the first one who did ;-). In any issue where more than one major point must exist in a balance, there are always going to be disagreements.

[christedge]

Thanks for tackling such a difficult, and controversial, topic so biblically, eloquently and respectfully.

[willpower242]

Calvinism is a heresy.....repent of it!!!

Salvation is conditional on faith Rom 10:9 Acts 16:31

Atonement is unlimited John 1:29 1 John 2:2

Grace is resistible. Matt 23:37

God does NOT condemn men to Hell who have NO chance to believe on Him. Dont impune God's character........repent of Calvinism!!

[eyevik]

Well done.

[skalapunk]

How come anytime someone thinks they found a "balance' they basically just assert regular ole fashioned Arminianism? That's not a balance, that's 100% inclined towards the side of Arminianism.

[fandediscussions]

@skalapunk - You know you have achieved some sort of "balance" when the Arminians call you an evil Calvinist, and the Calvinists assert that you are 100% Arminian. But I really don't care what you or they have to say - I care that I am IAW the Bible.

[skalapunk]

@fandediscussions Everyone claim that they are aligned with the Bible.

Arminian exegesis fails to convince me.

[fandediscussions]

@skalapunk - The point of this video is to help people see that there isn't just an "Arminian" and a "Calvinist" view. These views were people's attempts to understand the Bible. Both are extremes, and have very real problems with a great many passages in the Bible. A Biblical view requires a much deeper understanding of the scriptures, and the willingness to say that there are some that we do not understand.

[skalapunk]

@fandediscussions Might I suggest that you might have some strawmen in your mind about what Calvinism actually is? What Calvinist has ever said that man has no role in salvation? Every Calvinist will tell you that man's role is to repent and believe, or he will not be saved.

[fandediscussions]

@skalapunk - Thanks for the comment. I am actually dealing with a Calvinist on another video who DOES say that man has no role in salvation. There are wide varieties of Calvinists. Actually, he just claims to be a Calvinist, because "true" Calvinism doesn't say this - as you point out. This video is mostly aimed at them - but it is intended to make people think about the area that makes many go so far off the deep end - limited atonement. (I myself mostly ascribe to the rest of the TULIP).

[fandediscussions]

@skalapunk - Oh, and if you think I am an Arminian, then you have pretty well demonstrated the worthlessness of your opinions. The Arminians say I am just basically a 100% evil Calvinist..

[skalapunk]

@fandediscussions A synergist isn't always an arminian but an Arminian is always a synergist. So you may be right - you might not necessarily be an arminian, but you are at least a synergist.

[fandediscussions]

@skalapunk - no, I'm not. Your brain is stuck in either/or gear, but God teaches both/and. If one feels obligated to trace out a root cause, that cause is God. But God does not exercise that choice contrary to free will - in fact, He activates Salvation through the mechanism of human choice (which He is big enough to govern - Proverbs 21:1).

[skalapunk]

@fandediscussions So you affirm that God's grace makes the unwilling willing, and that nobody would be willing to be saved to begin with unless God had effectually (key word) changed their heart and made them willing?

[fandediscussions]

@skalapunk - certainly. But God doesn't make them willing against their will. And God uses their cry of repentance as the mechanism for activating His salvation. That is why we are not lying when we share to a world of elect and unelect that if they will repent and place their faith in Christ, they will be born again. It isn't a lie - it is truth straight from the Bible. This is the only way that both the free will verses and the Predestination verses in the Bible can both be true.

[skalapunk]

@fandediscussions Also, there are no free will verses in the Bible my friend. At least not in the sense Arminians mean it. Arminians believe in Libertarian free will. There are no verses in the Bible that support the concept. So you might want to qualify your statement when you said there were "Free will verses" in the Bible/

[fandediscussions]

@skalapunk - No, I don't want to qualify my statement. You might want to re-read the Bible. If you still can't find the verses, then try re-learning the English language. I have never met people as prone to hair splitting and scripture twisting as 5 point Calvinists. Of course, that is because the only way you can BE a 5 point Calvinist is to embrace hair splitting and scripture twisting...

[skalapunk]

@fandediscussions That's a pretty bold assertion man :( I'm sad that the conversation has degraded into it. Ah well, was hoping to have a civilized conversation without the logical fallacies that tend to emerge in this debate. I guess it won't be with you.

[fandediscussions]

@skalapunk - Ah, yes. Logical fallacies are always what the OTHER GUY says. A rational conversation is where people accept your unsubstantiated givens, and then follow you to approve postulates that totally disagree with the plain meaning of scripture. This conversation was doomed when you began it by miss-characterizing me as a being "100% inclined toward the side of Arminianism." But my guess is that you won't admit that, either.

[pbd54]

Romans 9 proves everything.

[fandediscussions]

@pbd54 - Funny. If it explains everything, why are there so many other scriptures that address the issue? Don,t you think that we should listen to everything that God tells us before we close our minds?

[NewDirection4us]

If Jesus died on the cross for ALL people that ever lived, or will ever live, then if not all people are actually saved then men must add something to what Jesus did to make the difference between being lost or being saved. Jesus didn't tell both thieves on the crosses next to him that both would be saved, he told it to only one of them. If Jesus was dying for both thieves then he would have said so, don't you think? Faith is a result of being chosen, we are not chosen because we have faith.

[fandediscussions]

@NewDirection4us - Don't argue with me. Take it up with God. God was the one that required repentance, not me. God required belief, not me. Your problem is that you want to stuff salvation into a little box, and it doesn't fit your box. But rather than change the shape of your box, you'd rather change the shape of salvation. But that is something that only God can do. You have a wonderfully simple theology. It just isn't Biblical!  To me, this is a problem. To you, it doesn't seem to be.

[NewDirection4us]

@fandediscussions Arminianism is a works based salvation, and not Biblical. Arminianism says that God made everyone savable through Jesus, but that only those who repent and come to Jesus are actually saved. So your salvation doctrine requires something additional to what Jesus did at Calvary for sinners by saying that salvation is conditional on faith. truth is that first comes regeneration by the Holy Spirit, then comes faith and repentance, not vice versa.

[fandediscussions]

@NewDirection4us -Your argument is based on man made theology, and not on the Bible. Jesus was not falsely advertising when He said that repentance was required for the forgiveness of sins in Luke 24:47, and in many other verses. Both Cavinism and Arminianism are man made systems of doctrine that are very poor substitutes for the real thing.

[NewDirection4us]

With all due respect, you Arminians have a weak God that cannot accomplish all that he wishes to accomplish. Your God maintains the order of the universe yet cannot save everyone that he would like to save. oh, if sinful men would only cooperate with our Holy God. Sinful men are sinful because that is their nature apart from God. We are born sinners and until the Holy Spirit make us alive in the Spirit then we are still dead.

[fandediscussions]

@NewDirection4us - You've got me wrong - I'm not an Arminian. Most would classify me as a four point Calvinist. I am someone that spends more time studying the scriptures than a theology book (Wait - aren't the scriptures THE theology book). That means that we have to understand ALL the scriptures, and we don't get to just pick and choose. And that means Arminian and Calvinistic errors have to be addressed. (They are, after all, extremes in a theological spectrum.)

[fandediscussions]

@NewDirection4us - Again, I'm not an Arminian. As someone who has taken the time to understand the arrangements on both sides, I can assure you that you are incorrect. Arminians don't argue that God can't cause what He wills to take place. They just believe in a God that places giving humans free will at the top of His priority list. As such, giving humans free choice IS accomplishing what He wishes to accomplish. But both Arminians and Calvinists diminish God's true glory by oversimpification.

[TCMAO0]

@fandediscussions You are in direct contradiction with the Bible! Read 1Cor. 1:4-7. What causes one person to decide to repent and another person not to. WHO MADE THEM DIFFER FROM EACH OTHER? That is the question. And, logically, these are the possible answers...

1. God made them to differ.

2. They made themselves differ.

One of those answers contradicts 1 Cor. 4:7. Now, you pick one.

If you pick 1 - Then you affirm Calvinism as THE GOSPEL. If pick 2, then MAN'S will is done - not Gods!

[fandediscussions]

@TCMAO0 - If the message of the Bible could be reduced to just 4 verses, God would have given us just 4 verses. As it is, we are forced to use context, and to understand the whole Bible. This passage is talking about the abundant gifting of the Holy Spirit after salvation, and not salvation itself.

If a single passage "solved" the issues raised by the apparent contradiction of Free will and Predestination, people would have found it long ago. As it is, we have to study and seek God!

[TCMAO0]

@fandediscussions Pick one! Or don't you know the overall point of the entire bible? You are in extreme danger. Study all you want. But this is the foundational truth. All your study will come to nothing if you can't see this truth!

[fandediscussions]

@TCMAO0 - actually, if you listened to the entire the video before you had responded, you would know that I firmly pick #1. And I am not in any danger, because I am held firmly in God's hand. He predestined me before the foundation of the world, and He saved me after I applied the faith that He gave me.

BTW, kindly listen to and understand the entire video before responding again.

[fandediscussions]

@TCMAO0 - I had to comment again. The overall point of the entire Bible is NOT "God chooses," for then the Bible is totally pointless - unless God is gloating about His power. But God isn't like that. The point of the Bible is that God offers a relationship to mankind, if mankind will take it. God requires repentance, even from those He elects. If anyone counts on their "election" to save them, and have not repented and turned to Christ of their own free will, they weren't "elected."

[skalapunk]

@fandediscussions With all due respect friend I don't think you understand what Calvinists mean by the doctrine of election. They are convinced that without election, nobody would ever be willing to accept God's offer of relationship in the first place. So without election, nobody goes to heaven. Election doesn't save anyone, but it does mark out people who will become willing to be saved, in time. Without election, nobody is willing. Because all men by nature are hostile to God

[fandediscussions]

@skalapunk - I used to believe as you do (about what Calvinism was). Unfortunately, since then I have met a great number of people who call themselves Calvinists, and believe that they were "born saved" and never had to repent. I hope you agree that this is heresy. I agree with your assessment - that no one would by nature choose God, and He reached out in love and "wooed" some in a special way - so that they are drawn by His irresistible grace. But His atonement was infinite, not limited.

[skalapunk]

@fandediscussions Sir, I know hundreds of Calvinists, and never once have I met one that thought he was born saved and had no need to repent. We MUST repent to be saved, I don't know how much clearer that canin scripture. As I said, I fear you are confusing hyper calvinism with calvinism. The former is far from Biblical truth, the latter is historic, Bible based Christianity. As for the atonement that's a different issue that takes time to work through, but I will say this: Jesus did not fail

[fandediscussions]

@skalapunk - I appreciate your point. I met hundreds of Calvinists before I met my first "Hyper-Calvinists." However, let me point out that Calvinism is NOT Bible based Christianity - it is a human system of Biblical interpretation. Once we understand this, we are ready to consider its good points and its bad points, keep the good, and not be affected by the bad (if such bad exists). Confuse "our understanding of scripture" with the inspired words of scripture sets up fighting and disaster.

[skalapunk]

@fandediscussions I'd also like to point out that all the greatest theologians and teachers and champions of the faith in church history believed these doctrines of grace. the reformers, the puritans, men like tyndale who are responsible for the bible in English language. So its not like this some strange new idea that you're just now experiencing here in the 21st century my friend. this is embedded in church history. All the creeds and counsils and confessions affirm these truths.

[fandediscussions]

@skalapunk - Yes, if you define "great" by agreeing with your understanding, then you would say that all the great Theologians agree with you. But you're very wrong, this idea is not new. The whole reason it was formalized into the Tulip was because not all the Theologians of the time agreed. As humans usually do, they polarized the issue, and some went too far one way, while others went too far the other. There's a ditch on both sides of the road...

[fandediscussions]

Hmmm. Pulls verses out of context. Presents "false dichotomies" in order to bolster their own so-called "logic." I would strongly suspect we just heard from a Hypercalvinist. (BTW, a Hypercalvinist is someone who believes that since God chose them, they had no need to repent - they were saved before the foundation of the world. Often they scorn outreach, because it doesn't make any difference anyhow. "Sit down, young man. If God wants to save the heathen, He'll do it without your help.")

[NewDirection4us]

No one that is chosen and Christ saved at the cross will not be saved. I said we are born spiritually dead. Yet our destiny has already been secured at the cross.

[fandediscussions]

@NewDirection4us - In the Bible, "Spiritually Dead" means separated from Christ. It is a metaphor, and was never intended to convey what many Calvinists have take it to mean. It is also only one of many metaphors the scripture uses, including "lost," "blind," "deaf," and "wounded." Each of these is used to show an aspect of our condition w/out God. Each of these also shows that man is not "dead" in the sense so often claimed by Calvinists, for each of these requires life.

[fandediscussions]

Those who are saved are saved because of Christ's 2 step intervention - both 1) on the cross in propitiation, and then again 2) in life as He effectively draws them to place their faith (which He gives) in Him. Simply because Christ predestined some to go through both of these does not negate the scriptural requirements that both occur. Just because all that the Father gives will come to Christ does not mean that they don't have to decide to come to Christ of their own free will also.

[NewDirection4us]

@fandediscussions You are starting to sound a little more like a Calvinist. We're making some progress here. Yes, we feel that all of our decisions come from within us and they do, but God is the cause and our choices are the effect. There is cause and effect for everything. God Yes, all choen elect will decide to come to Christ BECAUSE we have been chosen. God makes us willing, whereas the unchose reprobate do not want Christ, reject him, and would have him nailed to a cross.

[fandediscussions]

@NewDirection4us - Please see the title of the video. Calvinism and Armininism are both reactionary doctrines that are on polar extremes. Neither is balanced, and by that I mean that to support one or the other, one must ignore large numbers of scriptures. This is why theologians with their well developed theologies have fought over these for years, and will continue to do so. But for those of us that care more about faithfulness to the scriptures, we can study to show ourselves approved...

[NewDirection4us]

You lost me at about 3:45, that Christ didn't save anyone at the cross, that he just made everyone "saveable" based on their cooperation with God. You forget that all men and women are born spiritually dead. Dead people cannot make a decision. It is God that must resurrect a man, just as Jesus did with Lazarus, before a man can have faith. Left to themselves without the Holy Spirit then all men would curse God and reject Christ. God makes the difference. God chooses man, not vice versa.

[fandediscussions]

@NewDirection4us Please see Frank and Earnest on limited atonement. While on the cross, Christ made propitiation, but not salvation. Salvation occurs during our lifetime when we apply His sacrifice through the faith that He gives us. This is why Nicodemus still had to be born again, and this is why we WERE dead in our trespasses and sins - but Christ saved us. If He saved us before the world began, then we never were dead - unless you believe we were eternally existent like God...

[NewDirection4us]

@fandediscussions On the cross, just before he died, Jesus said: "It is finished". He accomplished what he set out to do, save his people from our sins. I wont argue about exactly when a person is saved as it is a moot point. The Father chose us in eternity and Jesus came to earth at a specific time to accomplish it as he did. True, we are born spiritually dead. I agree, but the fact that we are chosen and Christ accomplished it makes it a done deal, so to speak.

[fandediscussions]

@NewDirection4us I think you are confusing propitiation with salvation. They are not the same thing. God requires that people place their faith in Him in order to receive salvation. Simply because God gives the faith before He requires it does not negate that the faith is required. If men do not place their faith in Christ, they cannot be saved. Yes salvation is born of God, but it requires activation on the part of humankind. There cannot be salvation w/out repentance.

[NewDirection4us]

@fandediscussions Yes, the elect will come to Christ and make a decision to follow him but that is not something that comes from man without God's Holy Spirit making a man want to do it. The unsaved reprobate does not come to Christ because the Holy Spirit is not within him. He has no use for Christ and rejects the idea of a God judging him. So yes, all that the Father gives to Christ will come to him, and only those given. No one else, and these are the only ones saved.

[fandediscussions]

@NewDirection4us - I have never said it comes from man's spirit. God is the author of salvation. But when we ignore man's part of the equation (to apply what God gave him), we get regeneration without repentance, and we lose the assurance of salvation. We arrive at what is traditionally referred to as hyper-calvinism, and is heretical. Unfortunately, this appears to be the fastest growing segment of modern "Christianity," as Biblically illiterate people just ignore the difficult passages...