Atheist vs Muslim Debate: Secularism vs Political Theism (Part 2: Q/A)

[Nietzschean1000]

"All religions are ancient monuments to superstition, ignorance, ferocity; and modern religions are only ancient follies."

[xukun0]

@animeisadrugx: do you mean cool? lol fool

[alnagar1985]

low quality i cant hear what there saying

[1TheLoneWolf1]

@mujahid2006 You mentioned the say of muslims in the parliament. Muslims should have a say? No but as members of the UK yes! Religion should stay out of politics.

[1TheLoneWolf1]

That muslim guy is nuts! First, the muslims preech slavery and were doing so even before christians, yet he fails to mention this, then to blame wars on secularism, what about the wars between muslim sects and wars between different religions? There's a whole list of nonsense he talked about but I'd be here all day writting it down, and it would take hell of a lot more than 500 words listing them. Secularism isnt perfect but the only system where everyone has an equal say,NOT JUST muslims.

[mujtahid2006]

@1TheLoneWolf1 "Do you have an equal say in society compared to: Members-of-parliament, media moghuls and men of means (rich businessmen)? You misunderstand the main moral of the materialistic management of multitudes - the men with the material, matter more than the masses. Meditate upon this message, mate.

[xukun0]

@animeisadrugx: your name says it all Fool Lol have some knowledge about islam then come back!!! use your brain before it's too late foool KKKKKKKKK

[divinegod102]

The "holy" Qu'ran is just as holy as Mein Kampf and its writer, Hitler himself.

[Harizl]

@divinegod102

it's also as holy as the bible, the Torah, and Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban.

[divinegod102]

@Harizl I concur but why should Harry Potter be considered "holy"? It doesn't teach self-praise, misogyny, promote violence and hatred, nor any of the things considered "holy" in the Qu'ran and Bible. It is just a children's book after all.

[Harizl]

@divinegod102

The others are childrens books for grown ups.

[divinegod102]

@Harizl Pretty much like Santa for grown-ups xD

[1TheLoneWolf1]

The muslim speaker also goes on to say that the rape crime is increasing. I wonder if he knew about the rape stat's in Norway where every single rape within Norway for the past five years was carried out by a muslim immigrant?

That's right EVERY SINGLE RAPE! according to police records!

[divinegod102]

@1TheLoneWolf1 That's disgusting. Another reason why Muslims must be extensively screened and deported in some countries.

[1TheLoneWolf1]

@divinegod102

Well... foreign criminals, and more thought in to who we allow to immigrate in to our nations.

[divinegod102]

@1TheLoneWolf1 And to think, we're giving them benefits for being nuts.

[xukun0]

@Gnomefro: LMAO!!! Let There Be NO Compulsion in Religion. We want to remind you to the fact that .. There is no compulsion for man to accept the TRUTH.

In no way does Islam preach forced conversions, rather, this is something forbidden by clear texts.

defeat? lol there is only one looser and thats the one who reject the truth!!! you will taste the defeat when you visit the grave mate!!! ;) learn about islam first then we will see!!!

[animeisadrugx]

@xukun0 fool.

[alangname]

science means right now, wrong tommorrow. Wrong now, right tommorrow. Nothing to argue with it.

[Vainslain]

Love to see this 2 children of satan arguing and dividing his kingdom. How sweet

[jrev37]

Silly comments. Christian apologetics go around bragging about defeating atheist and scientists and proving islam wrong, Muslims do the same. Silly people.

[TheAbridgingSeries]

I bet the muslim won.

[xukun0]

@ilovepakistanforlif: You have free will and i have free will!!! Allah gave you free will use your free will you are free to believe in allah or not... its your choice!!! In the hereafter you can't deny hellfire cuz you did choose to end up in hellfire!!! There is no god but Allah and allah created everything that excist!!!

[Gnomefro]

@xukun0 Please read your own "holy" book and you'll see that there is no free will in Islamic doctrine. Predestination is mutually exclusive with this idea when Allah is also claimed to have kicked the whole universe system into action. From the point of view of Allah he would be directly responsible for everything that happens. There would be no moral justifications in such a universe.

Also, Allah even claims to specifically mind control non-believers into not believing in certain passages.

[Gnomefro]

@xukun0 Oh and by the way, threatening people with hellfire is not an argument for Islam. Nor is it a reason to believe Islam is true. You're literally taking the comical position of an insurance salesman who has failed to sell a car insurance and angry yelling at the no-longer-potential customer "Your car is going to burn in some imaginary place I read about in a book!".

Take your defeats like a man. There's nothing more pathetic than a cultist yelling about punishments in afterlives.

[xukun0]

Allah tells us He is Al-Bari, (The Shaper or Evolver) but once again, this does not mean He has a need to bring about each individual life form all from one kind. Actually, while reading the Quran you learn He has brought many types and shapes and sizes as He Wills. Changes within species occur even as quickly as one or two seasons, not even taking a whole year, much less millions as was supposed by Darwin.

[xukun0]

There is no concrete evidence to support a cross over in development from one type to another, such as reptiles turning into birds or alligators turning into cows. The statements made in Quran are quite clear when Allah tells us of having brought forth other life forms and then destroying or replacing them with others. This again, does not imply evolution in the sense of one type becoming or changing into another.

[xukun0]

The Quran has set a precedent 14 centuries before modern science, explaining in simple and direct terms about his "creation" of animals and their various functions and then assures us it is He who has the Power over everything. This statement includes the fact Allah can if He Wills, reshape and alter his creation as He Chooses. There is clear evidence within many species of alteration and changes within the species.

[ilovepakistanforlife]

@xukun0 basically evolution? -_-

[xukun0]

@ilovepakistanforlife: Qur'an teaches both!!!

It says, Allah is - Al Khaliq (The creator), It also says, Allah is - Al Bari ( The evolver)!!!

[ilovepakistanforlife]

@xukun0 and you are an ignorant fool who is too afraid to question the existence of god

[edlgotbanged]

@ilovepakistanforlife Lol why do you not watch Hamza Tzortiz and see how all the Athiest hide in shame and take the position of an Agnostic rather then Atheist.

[Gnomefro]

@edlgotbanged "see how all the Athiest hide in shame and take the position of an Agnostic rather then Atheist."

Roflmao! What you likely call "Atheist" is a nonsensical statement to make for a non-theist. "There is no God" literally has no meaning for us because the word "God" does not have an agreed upon definition. If the non-theist was to define "God" any theist could just make up a new definition. Because of this, almost all modern atheists regard atheism as a lack of belief in gods.

[Gnomefro]

@edlgotbanged I think you'll find that most atheists will also happily argue for the positive position "Allah does not exist". However, we can't be asked to argue against "God" when word that really is just a synonym for "something". The cowards here really are the theists who will always backtrack from any conceivable falsifiable claim about their gods and make up the most ridiculous excuses to cover up obvious contradictions in their "holy" books.

[Gnomefro]

@edlgotbanged That said, I'll give you a point for mentioning "Hamza Tzortiz" and not utter clowns and liars like Naik. Hamza at least as honest as apologists can be without going out of work. He can't support his own position though, and *that* is embarrassing because the theist is the one making the positive claim here. Being a non-believer is in fact the only rational position if you can't justify a belief. An "atheist retreat to agnosticism" is not really a retreat at all.

[Gnomefro]

@edlgotbanged In fact, agnostic claims are a subset of atheism. Saying "I don't know" is a justification for not accepting a claim if you have any epistemic sense at all. 

[xukun0]

@ilovepakistanforlife: You are ignoring islamic teachings!!! you don't know nothing about islam,allah,jesus,mohammed,mos­es,abraham,noah etc

You are a liar liar liar!!!

[ilovepakistanforlife]

@xukun0 I am a liar because I don't believe in god? you know since the beginning of recorded history, which is defined by the invention of writing by the Sumerians around 6,000 years ago, historians have cataloged over 3700 supernatural beings, of which 2870 can be considered deities. you are denying 2869 of those gods

when you understand why you dismissed those 2869 gods, you'll understand why I dismissed yours

[ilovepakistanforlife]

@xukun0 so just because I don't believe that someone with white beard lives in the clouds and controls everything in the whole universe you're saying I fail at life? think of it logically a book has caused you to believe in a certain superior being that loves everyone but if you deny him[why not her? sexist much!] you'll burn in hell. -_-

[DaFree0ne]

@xukun0 dude chill.

[xukun0]

@ilovepakistanforlife: Allah does not love those who do not appreciate His Guidance, defy it, hide it, reject it or fall short in obeying it. [3:32, 30:45], and drain and debilitate their human potential [2:276]

Allah does not love those who do not put things in their due place and proper perspective, and act wrongfully, unjustly, tyrannically, or wickedly [3:57, 3:140, 42:40]

"And I will give them an heart to know me." (Jeremiah 24:7)

ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC

[ilovepakistanforlife]

@xukun0 like I said that includes 4.4 billion people in this world...[probably much more because most of the Muslims are Muslims either because they were born in a Muslim family and never dared to question their faith or because well they don't eat pork so that makes them a Muslim]

so if I deny Islam but act justly, I am good to go? *shoo that's a relief

[xukun0]

The answere is in the Qur'an!!! Allah guids who ever he wants!!! There is no god but allah.

[ilovepakistanforlife]

@xukun0 well my dear friend then clearly allah doesn't like us all for there are 4.4 billion people in this world who don't believe in islam...too bad we're all dimwits who're doomed to rot in hell

[0NorthernPirate0]

What is the penalty for apostacy in Islam?.... Religion has no business in the Government. 

[Harzburgitic]

@0NorthernPirate0 What is the punishment for treason in your country? You forget that Islam established a political sytem with the Qur'an as the constitution accepted and adopted by the populace. Apostacy was not simply changing religion or leaving religion in a spiritual sense. It was when someone openly encouraged dismantling or disregard for the constitution (Quran) of the State and encited others to do so, or disregarded laws thereby.

[scienceatheism]

how is that in any way a good thing though? how is death from leaving or degrading a holy book righteous? unlike islam we can question our constitution and rules of laws. the quran is set in stone my friend. we can change our constitution but if your people even attempts to change it, death is eminent.

[ilovepakistanforlife]

@0NorthernPirate0 agreed

[Destroyticus]

Secularism = Fall of humanity.

[divinegod102]

@Destroyticus Yet you are still enjoying the comfort of our secular technologies, which also include the computer screen in front of your face and the operating system that is running it. Yet you're still foolishly bashing what you're raised from birth with. What a shameless hypocrite.

[miregrc]

The muslim guy is fucking sexy hot. Damn, im atheist:P

[xukun0]

I've got knowledge of both side! what about you? lol learn islam then talk against islam!

Trust me...

Knowledge is like a Lamp in the Dark...

Knowledge is your Sword against the Enemies of Islam...

Knowledge is your Protection Shield from Fitnah....

[joeshmo156]

I don't think this muslim representative understands what secular and what a secular nation means.

[Obasiliasfilosofos]

Greece was under the Islamic state for 400 years, No thanks never again!

Unlike Greek Nationalists, I am willing to forgive medieval Ottomans for conquering the Byzantine empire and is grateful that they didn't force us on mass to accept Islam, But the Ottoman caliphate forced us to be their "subjects" without our consent and was imperialistic.

[Obasiliasfilosofos]

Here is another far more important question, Is it heretical for a Muslim to be a secularist (politically) .

[xukun0]

@paulocbi Why do atheist convert to Islam whenever they convert to a religion? If you study islam then you will come to know that islam is the truth! you have no knowledge about islam. Do you know about the story of Mohammed peace be upon him? you are a ignorant person how can you judge some one you don't know? There is only one god and one way of life!!!

[KaonNeutre]

@xukun0 Maybe you are more educated on mohammed than any other here. But you are more ignorant on the rest (of all knowledge). It makes you unable to define what actually is "truth". You think that truth is what you have been told by your parents as child, but you don't know WHY. You then pretend that Truth is as simple as something someone tell you when you are young. But you only can tell that it is because you "feel" it. So why Hindus not right?? They are "feeling" it too !!!

[ilovepakistanforlife]

@xukun0 that is not true. I have a friend who converted to buddhism from atheism. in fact i know many people (sadly, including myself) who have converted from Islam to Atheism/Agnosticism because of the fear in Islam. The only reason you wouldn't question Islam is because you fear god, you're too scared to question your beliefs for you might be thrown in hell.

[edlgotbanged]

@ilovepakistanforlife No where does it say you will be thrown in to hell for Questioning ? hmm i love this claim people make but they can not back it up where does the Qur'an say

shut your mouth and do not ask Questions ? i am waiting please answer lol.

Why are you judging Islam on the actions of the Muslims ? huh ..... its phatetic.

[ilovepakistanforlife]

@edlgotbanged I never said you would be thrown into hell and neither did I say it's in Qura'an. It's more of a psychological claim...guilt and fear precisely.[this is coming from personal experience btw] I used to question myself 'why do I believe in god" and felt guilty for it and afraid of all the 'punishments' for apostasy. What use in following a religion based on fear? Isn't god supposed to be someone you love and not fear?Anywho that's my point of view, you have every right to your beliefs

[edlgotbanged]

@ilovepakistanforlife The Qur'an says there is no compulsion in religion so i do not know why you fear the punishments, lol.

Where do you live btw ?

[ilovepakistanforlife]

@edlgotbanged oh so I am not going to rot in hell for leaving Islam? good to know

and where I live is none of your business (:

[edlgotbanged]

@ilovepakistanforlife This is where you fail, you have choice to do what you want with your life so what you do is your choice and the Conciquinces of what you do are your own, search for the truth, this life is nothing but mere play and boasting.

[xukun0]

@camatheist you are the one who is backward! you are the one who believes man evolved from apes and monkeys! who is backward you or us muslims? Truth stands out clear from error!!!

[PAULOcbi]

@xukun0 religion is the panacea of our time,the mysteries of the universe are mysteries,for now,but religion will be looked back on as a serious blight in the history of mankind,I understand %95 percent of people born are nebbish or sheep-like and need moral,cultural and spiritual guidance...is it any wonder the jews came up with monotheism and the bible to galvanize their people???muhammad saw this and created koran, `cos his people were still wiping their asses with their hands...lol

[KaonNeutre]

@xukun0 The truth is that you have 98% of your DNA exactly the same than the chimps. You stand in ape family and you are nearer from the chimps and bonobos than chimps and bonobos are near from gorilla (also an ape). This is actual FACTS, or if you prefer, it's reality. Now its up to you to explain this with god magical wand or evolution theory (which also, not exclusively, explains WHY there is legs in the whales tail, WHY there is legs of dolphin embryos and WHY animals are easily believing).

[CamAtheist]

this Muslim guy is silly. islamic Sharia Law is also arbitrary because no Islamic state has the same sets of laws so it come right back to Humans imposing the will of other humans based on a book written and edited by another human allegedly based on words remembered by humans from another human who allegedly spoke to God. Bollocks....Secular society safeguards our freedoms.

[shank007]

Sharia Laws boils down to Quran and Sunnah. For it to be arbitrary the religion itself would not exist today. No Islamic state has the same set of laws because no Islamic state are applying the sharia today. Look back into history and see why Islam has been successful and it was successful because it was widely known to be just.

Regarding the Quran, either produce one sentence like of or prove its inaccuracy. Otherwise you are just another who willingly shut his/her eyes when they see change.

[CamAtheist]

That is your opinion. There are parts of Afghan and Pakistan where they claim to have imposed it and the rules are not the same. My father is the Maulana of the Jamaat I used to attend. So please do not try to tell me about the alleged perfection of Islam. Survival says nothing because Hinduism has been around long before Islam and its still almost a billion strong. Buddhism has also been around long before. Widely just? hahaha slavery and rape of Africa yet you claim widely just. Who isnt?

[shank007]

really, I know people from Afghanistan and Pakistan claiming that they are far from it. Sure there are locals who might have implemented Sharia, but Sharia laws without a proper leader won't be a successful one. There are many innovation in the religion out and to contain it needs a proper leader.

Hinduism and Buddhism has been around long, but so have monotheistic religion.

Can you be more specific regarding slavery and rape?

[CamAtheist]

you claimed longevity is proof of its greatness therego Hinduism is greater because has been around atleast 1000 yrs before Judaism. You will see a GOOD LEADER depending on what you want to see. There are many who think Osama is a good Muslim. As for the rape and murder you can read up on the Zanj slaves and the Persian and Indian slavers and slave empires. Its all out there man. You people act like reading a book some how makes you good. Thats rubbish.

[CamAtheist]

The fact is if Islam was that good that fool would have moved to a Muslim country long long time ago. There arent great lines to go to those backward and oppressive places where men of GOD rule because all they are are tyrants armed with written words about a celestial tyrant, its a recipe for disaster. How do people believe such rubbish. A virgin made a child, all powerful God spoke to Mohamet only who couldnt even read so cant even say whats in the Quran whixch was written after his death.

[dhyleck]

Excellent Debate indeed! MashAllah!

[eddie2042]

i remember political theism being implemented, called a "theocracy". those days were called the "dark ages".

reason for the future!

[jaed123]

Excellent debate bro..Keep up the good work masha Allah