I can only make a sound if I place the embouchure sligthly to the left or to the right on my lips. If I place it exactly at the center, I cant make it sound. Should I train and force the center position ou I can proceed the way I can now?
@danmusic2008 Don't worry about an off center placement. Put the mouthpiece where it works best, not with what looks centered. Lot's of fantastic players have off-center placements.
@ddparker95 I'd need to be able to watch you play to help you. If you can find a teacher who can help you with breathing and your embouchure that should help.
all good and interesting but what about when using an embouchure cause the muscles to become so tense that you are no longer to play your instrument because of the amount of pain that will be incurred from using tensions in the "chops"
@srorasco1 I'd have to see it to offer any suggestions. It sounds like there's something going on in the embouchure form that isn't happening correctly. Perhaps playing on the wrong embouchure type or inconsistent embouchure form.
I've played the saxophone in my marching/concert band for 6 years, jazz for 2, but this year I'm taking a change in pace and learning to play trombone. It's difficult because all I really have to go off of is the tips my music teacher has given the brass players over the years. Where should I start? Any tips would be appreciated :)
@xb00mdeeboomx Firm your embouchure before placing the mouthpiece and practice keeping your lips center just touching while breathing through the mouth corners.
ok so i play the trombone, and im trying to play the french horn, but i find the mouthpiece is kinda small and im having trouble. i usually play the trombone with a tiny bit more lower lip, so what do you recommend i do for the horn? (i have braces too, but im getting them off soon so ill prob have to re-learn sorta :P)
@skawo4 Different approach on both. I'd use the largest "French" horn mouthpiece I could find when doubling on lower brass. Works for me. Find something 18.00 mm cup diameter.
@gsmonks I'd generally recommend using the same embouchure type for any brass doubling you do. The same basic types are found on all brass instruments. Depending on the player, some brass doublers prefer to use as extreme a difference between sizes as possible and some prefer to get as close as possible. It really depends on the player.
@furballmunchkinshiga That's a little unusual. My guess would be that it would be best if you could figure out which placement will work best for both and stay with one, rather than switch between two embouchure types. Hard to say without watching you play.
CONTINUATION: This embouchure, for whatever reason, greatly increases my range (about a whole octave). I can easily switch between embouchures with no problem whatsoever. I have been told that this can cause damage to my lips. Is that true?
@username1746 It sounds like your jaw position is working for you. Everyone has different anatomy and what works for your teacher might not work best for you. If your teacher instructs a "one size fits all" embouchure then it is wrong. Use what works best for you.
I play with my trumpet pointed at an angle downward but I keep my head up. Inevitably, this creates what my teacher says is an "underbite" he says that this is wrong and I should not play this way. I have heard from another teacher that this embouchure is harder to play high on but gets a better sound. But he did not say it was wrong. Is there something wrong with the way I prefer to play? I can also play with the trumpet slightly to either side of my mouth but with no "underbite". This embouch
also, getting lip surgery to relieve an abscess doesnt help your embouchure... it only makes it less fuzzy sounnding as you change your embouchure, thus reinforcing that some embouchures are better than others. once i changed it after having surgery to accompany scarring, my problems literally disappeared.
@MasterOfDisguise116 The best embouchure is the one that fits your unique anatomy. One embouchure isn't better than another, as long as it works with your physiology and not against it. What works best for you won't work so well for others and vice versa.
with the french horn mouthpiece however, there is a correct way to play it. because its conical in shape and not cupped you need to adjust it so that its more top lip than bottom. Of course it varies between person to person, but the appeture for the mouthpiece is very small and needs to be adjusted properly.
@MasterOfDisguise116 The main difference between horn and the other brass instrument's embouchures is a matter of scale. The same basic types are found on all brass and in about the same ratio, despite what horn texts usually say.
@speeps84 It's only easier if you happen to have the physiology that makes that placement work better. Try it and see what happens. Most players want to place with more upper lip inside.
@speeps84 Just develop what you feel is right, I couldn't play a G till about 3 years in... however on that 3rd year I was able to expand my range to a D. Just keep strengthening your muscles, don't blame your embouchure if it feels right, develop your muscles and it will come. Good luck.
@Art2Fly Well, yes and no. It's important to develop the muscles, but all players have one embouchure type that will work best for their whole range. Sometimes players have a placement that forces them into the wrong embouchure type and in this case no amount of practice will make this incorrect placement work for them.
But it's often necessary to build muscles before the proper embouchure type becomes apparent.
@wilktone I know very well about this subject, that's why I said, play with what feels right. I have a slight under-bite and my teeth are messed up due to an accident several years ago, thus i play slightly to my right and down, it feels right that way. I did have my fair share of private teachers tell me that this was wrong, but I made it my goal to prove them wrong by surprising them over and over again.
@Art2Fly Cool. As a different example, though, I played all the way through grad school on a placement that felt fine, but just didn't work for me. Everyone is different and it's hard to generalize. Just placing where it "feels right" doesn't always work for all players.
I play with a slight 'stroke' embrouchure, where my jaw moves down and to the right very slightly, so from one side i look as if there is not much lip whereas on the other side average lip showing , i play with my bottom lip undershot to my top lip. I'm 16, decent stamina(apparently!) grade 7/8 :)
But, I'm not saying that anything that everyone else teaches is wrong. The overall goal of any kind of teaching is to help the player become proficient (at least) on their instrument, and there are many different methods to accomplishing this. Me? I'm a trumpet student at Morehead State University, in Greg Wing's studio. He uses the William Adam Method of teaching trumpet (a Kinesthetic approach), and it works better for me than the analytical approach that my teacher used in high school.
I do agree that everyone's embouchure is different. I, personally, play 50/50 or maybe 40/60 top/bottom on the mouthpiece depending on the register. However, do to my professor's method, I try not to analyze it. If you sound good, your endurance is good, your technique is good, and there isn't any facial damage or anything, then why worry about making sure your embouchure is correct? Now, if your embouchure inhibits your playing ability, then a change needs to be made.
@MrDustyK It's your professor's job to analyze your chops, that's why you're taking lessons. Still, I think it's a good thing to learn about how brass embouchures actually function and to not take these myths seriously. Analysis by itself isn't good or bad, it's how you analyze and how you apply it that's important. Often teachers who don't understand embouchure dismiss analysis, which isn't always helpful.
I can certainly accept #5 as false. I sound better playing trumpet with more lower lip in the mouthpiece and find it easier to function, but everyone tells me I don't know what I'm doing since I haven't been playing trumpet for very long.
"You shouldn't place the rim on the red of the upper lip" is NOT a misconception. The videos you used to support this being a misconception show no players actually playing in the red on the upper lip, only low mouthpiece placement. As long as the rim of the mouthpiece is not on the red of the lips it doesn't matter how low or how high. However, getting off the red is crucial. Having studied with him for 4 years, I can say that Wynton does NOT play on the red and advised me to get off the red.
@hotlipsporter Are we going to go around again? Wynton has a low placement, which is what I demonstrate with many of the pros in this video. I place on the red and so do a handful of other fine players I've shown in other videos. There is no anatomical feature that would suggest your opinion is plausible for all players.
What works for you does not work for others, which is the main point of this whole video. Take a closer look around you and maybe you'll confirm this vital fact yourself.
@wilktone The inner part of the lips are more fragile and more prone to damage. This holds true for EVERYONE. I'm sure there is an abundance of scientific data to back this up. If you are going to make a ridiculous statement about not playing in the red being a misconception, then back it up! Where is the video of a phenomenal trumpet player playing in the upper red of the top lip? Why is it that the greatest players in the world don't do it? Coincidence?
Charlie, I have discussed this with you in other fora a couple of other times. Apparently you don't recall the sources I've cited, including academic research, brass texts, anatomy texts, video documentation, and medical sources that I've spoken with about this very question. The burden of proof has been on you. Cite those scientific sources you mention.
There is *always* rim placed on the red. If it were so fragile, you would notice it already. What works for you is not universal.
@hotlipsporter And there are examples of fine brass players placing on the red in this video and others on my channel. It's not all that hard to find, if you bother to look.
@wilktone You miss the point. You said it was a misconception and followed that bold statement up with videos that featured players with low placement but NOT playing in the top red. If you are going to make a statement like that, follow it directly with videos of players playing that way. Of course, there is always going to be some rim touching the side, but having the very top and bottom of the rim off the red makes it unnecessary to use brute force, because the lip is not paralyzed.
@hotlipsporter Charlie please look at this video again. Some of those players definitely place the mouthpiece on the red of the lips (plmmnlease also consider the entire rim, not just the outer diameter). Those that do aren't using "brute force." It has to do more with the size of the vermilion and the relationship between the length of the upper lip to the teeth/gums.
@hotlipsporter You're a fine player and I'm sure you mean well, but these comments are a poor medium for an intellectual debate. I'll try to find time to compile some of the things I've pointed out to you before and post them on my web site. If you wish to continue this conversation you can do so there.
@hotlipsporter and anyone else who wants to see my detailed responses to his comments here can find a link in the video description. On that page I deal with misconceptions that Charlie and others have about the physiology of the lips and embouchure form and function. If you have additional criticisms or corrections, the comments section on my web site is a good place to make them and doesn't limit your comments by a certain number of characters.
@maltesers55 Mouthpiece placement is personal. Please watch some other videos I've posted to see some of the variety and also to see how this makes an embouchure upstream or downstream.
@wilktone Hello wilktone. Great lessons postings. I just started trumpet a little over a month ago. I am self taught, on sax, and other instruments. Sax embouchure has developed well. On the trumpet, I have to be disciplined to be patient, and take it slow. I'm playing notes C through G. I spend a great deal of the time playing long notes. Have played a few exercises with the notes learned. Does learning trumpet always take such a slow path initially?
@wilktone Because When first learning the alto sax, I noticed improvement in my embouchure within a week. Made great progress. Very satisfying. On trumpet I was able to produce notes by the second day. Embouchure has become more relaxed in recent weeks, since I started almost two months ago. Does embouchure development for trumpet always take several weeks. Though tempted, I won't move forward till I am playing the notes I've learned consistently. I'm a perfectionist, but must be patient.
@maltesers55 The air probably *shouldn't* go straight down the mouthpiece. The mouthpiece placement is itself responsible for whether it's downstream (more upper lip) or upstream (more lower lip).
My teacher wants me to play around the center of my lips, but I have a missing inscissor tooth on my right, so it is easier for me to play with my embouchure a bit right centered... :P
I play trumpet and my mouthpiece doesn't sit in the center of my lips. My teachers say its not good for me. Is there any truth to what they are saying. It sits to the right on my lips.
@MissTrumpetGirl It's tricky to tell without seeing it. It's quite possible that the formation of your teeth and the muscles around your mouth dictate that you may be better suited to playing off centre. Nobody's face musclature is completely symmetrical; some less symmetrical than others. When I teach a new player from scratch, I always start them off dead centre (unless they have really wonky teeth) and work with them to gradually find the best position.
Thank you for sharing. I learned to play the French Horn late in life at age 39 and never really had formal training. I've been told by so many hornists to play with more upper lip in the mouthpiece. It never worked for me--I was always frustrated knowing I was wrong and they were right. I've found through trial and error that playing slightly lower than center (slightly more lower lip) works best for me and producing a quality sound. So thanks!
Is it weird that I adjust my embouchure? I usually have lip dead center, with an equal amount of lip going op and down, but sometimes, I move my lip and slide them in different directions, so I can tune. I've made the first chair in all county, so I'm obviously a good player but should I abandon that habit?
I used to have a habit of doing that, but I notice that when I do that, it makes my notes sound, fuzzier.
I mean kind of, in this sense. In a band scenario, if I find myself to be flat or sharp, in comparison to the band, I might tighten my lips, or indeed slip it up higher, or lower, like in your video, so that we sound closer in tune.
I've never been told not to do so, nor has anyone seen me do it, but I've found it weird.
@wilktone Well, I mean in a normal band scenario, you can't hear it, but when I'm by myself playing, I can notice it.
It's not a blaring thing, just I find myself with a better tone playing without embouchure motion, however, in your video, the embouchure motion was used to higher notes and perhaps lower notes, however I use mine, to get in tune.
Hi, I'm a Euphonium and Bass Trombone player and I have a somewhat of a High placement embouchure. I have found that I collapse my embouchure when slurring down, but this only happens when for example slurring down from a Bb to Bb and I also found this to happen in the higher register as well, but I do not change my embouchure when breathing.
I play with my trumpet off the the side is this bad...I still have a good and better sound than anyone else in my grade level, but my teacher says it wil hinder my ability to progress later on. Is that true??
@clay922 Lots of great players place the mouthpiece off center, some a lot. It's hard to say without watching you play, but if that's where your embouchure works best, I'd stick with it and continue working on overall embouchure form. Later another placement may (or may not) become necessary, but if it's best there, stick with it.
It doesn't seem to have been too much of a problem for Jon Faddis! - I too have used an offset embouchure for over 30 years, so if it works for you...
@clay922 Your face muscles aren't symmetrical so why would your embouchure be? Keep with it. Chris Martin (1st chair in the CSO) plays crazy off to the left. It really all depends on the person.
@clay922 depends on how off to the side you mean. our lead trumpet player in college has his completely off center and he plays cleanly and beautifully
Good summary of misconceptions . . . a teacher once forced me to move my emb up dramatically so the top edge wasn't touching the red, and this set me back about a year mentally. Then i had a lesson with Malcolm McNab and he said my embouchure looked great!
I play trumpet and in 6th grade, when I started, I played on the side of my mouth because I didn't have a stand, so I used my stand on the right side of my bed and that's where I play. Any suggestions?
hello....i have a great deal of questions that cant fit into this comment concerning my embouchure. I was wondering if i could post a video response of me playing and asking questions and have you tell me what my main problems are.
Hola,yo estudio tromepta hace 7 años,y tengo la embocadura baja,y corrida un poquito hacia la derecha...pero yo toco sin ningun problema...que es lo peor que me puede pasar!?..muchas gracias!
QUE CHEVERE SI HUBIERA UNA VERSION CON SUBTITULADA PARA LOS LATINOS QUE AUN NO HABLAMOS INGLES...SI ALGUIEN ME PUEDE AYUDAR SE LO AGRADEZCO...UN ABRAZO PARA TODOS
@andresfp1 Hola. Mi espanol es muy mal. Necesito ayuda con traducciones al español. Algún día me gustaría hacer traducciones de mis videos para arriba. Por el momento, se puede intentar ir a mi sitio web (wilktone.com) y el uso de Google Translate para leer parte del texto de estos videos.
Wow....I am not guessing based on how I play, that's a big stretch. Heck....it seems that you think a trumpet embouchure is "upstream" because the horn angles straight out or because a player uses more bottom lip in the cup?? My horn goes straight out and I'm about 50/50 in my lip placement and I'm not playing "upstream" by any definition. Look at any video of Faddis on here and you'll see his horn is pointing DOWN much of the time.
I think you're title here should be more about "trombone" or "low brass" embouchures, since that's most of what I see on your channel. (Still can't find the Leno one,heh) Trumpet is way different and because the mouthpiece is smaller players are haunted by note shut off problems, something I've not seen with trombonists I've asked. We also have a "gap" setting which bone players tell me they don't have. Humor me cuz I think I've picked up a couple things since I started playing in 1968 eh? :)
@Dizzyphan In order to see my points you should go to my YouTube channel and watch more of my video presentations. You can also see Lloyd Leno's film there. You have some misunderstandings on how brass embouchures actually function. Then you will understand what makes an upstream embouchure and how the embouchure motion works. You can't just guess based on how you play, everyone is different and you need to study the inner embouchure.
Humor me, since wrote my dissertation on embouchures.
@wilktone Your dissertation should/would be based on trombone and low brass embouchures not trumpet. Trumpet is way different because of the smaller mouthpiece and tighter air column involved. I'll look for this "Leno" film again, but if he's a bone player your point on trumpet embouchure are still moot. :)
@wilktone Ok....watched 3 of Leno's films. BTW...I've played twice with Watrous in the past. Great player. I think NOW I might be understanding of what you're talking about when you say "downstream...upstream". You're talking about all being inside the cup and if the air is pointing to the top of the cup or bottom right? It "might" apply to trumpet somewhat but also in order to facilitate an upstream most players playing that way their jaw protrudes forwards and the horn points upwards.
@Dizzyphan Thanks for taking the time to look through my channel, yes you have the grasp of my descriptions now. You'll either have to look for yourself or trust me when I say trumpet embouchures are the same as all the other brass, just a smaller scale.
Really, don't take my word for this, look for yourself. Best still, make your own videos and post them so we can all learn and keep expanding our knowledge.
@wilktone Yeah....it's the same but it isn't. Only thing the same is about the buzz in the mouthpiece. Young trumpet players playing on what's considered a large trumpet piece who go almost all bottom lip have a tendency to lose notes because their top lip gets kicked out. This also plays into the top lip rising, which it DOES in a trumpet embouchure.
@wilktone I have a video on here of me playing Mendez' "Macarena". You tell me if you think I'm upstream or not, LOL. Sorry for missing the double A on the end......it "shut off" mostly due to being nervous and tired and the top lip rose even with my upper front teeth. I think it's kind of hard to tell on a trumpet even WITH a clear Kelly mouthpiece, everything's so small to see inside the cup. Trumpet pieces don't have enough room to move around like bone pieces,etc.
BTW...you ask if I had looked at a lot of players through a clear plastic mouthpiece. Well...yes my young students, but my teacher of 24 years also took plaster casts of many lead trumpet players teeth starting with Bud Brisbois and did a whole study on this. And again.....when I reccomended more top lip was reffering to straight or downstream players like myself. Upstream players you can see easily in that the horn is either tilted upwards or their heads tilt downwards or combo of the two.
To show my point just look at Jon Faddis, Severinsen when he was young, and even Bergeron now admits about his broken tooth. He went to fix it and had to have it unfixed quick cuz his embouchure centers around it. There a physical reasons "why" certain things happen well for high notes....it's not magic, heh.
@Dizzyphan Faddis and Severinsen are both upstream players. This means they both have more lower lip inside the mouthpiece, different from what you recommended below (you said keep as much upper lip inside as you can below).
@wilktone You are coming from a trombone and low brass perspective. All I see on your channel are videos showing trombone and low brass. This is different from trumpet. I'm not mistaken here.
@wilktone I've watched that video. Mostly trombone embouchures. Also I'd agree with Claude Gordon over you about "embouchure motion" . Even Doc says keep the corners still, but in your videos I think you talke about some "allowed" motion,etc. Again.....dealing with mostly trombone and low brass I can see your point there for that. It's something different for trumpet and higher brass. "Let the air do the work" as CG would say. I think he's right on this.
@wilktone Ok now I finally found some videos on Leno just doing a search for his name. Great videos, but it's all TROMBONE embouchure tho. Fact is that trumpet players don't have the same kind of "room" dealing with their set as you bone players do. When we're talking about german/french upstream embouchure for trumpet the horn angles upwards with the jaw coming forward like I've mentioned.
@wilktone It is usually trumpet players who have extreme underbites that play upstream naturally, IE Sammy Davis Jr. would be an upstream player for example, lower teeth in front of upper teeth,etc. Therefore it looks to me that this "upstream" term you are using is different than what we trumpet players would use/define it,etc.
@wilktone The tissues in the top lip DO rise...you can't see it tho. When the bottom of the top lip gets even with the bottom edge of the two front teeth the sound and vibration shuts off. An upstream player his horn will be tilted slightly upwards and his jaw forward a bit thus utilizing more bottom lip and hitting the top lip at an able thus an easier high note capacity. Those with underbites are natrually prone to upstream or "German/French" embouchure.
Yeah...I wasn't talking about upstream actually of course. More straight out or downstream players which is a huge majority I find on my end. My point is that the upper lip in any case DOES rise even on upstream players. The fact that the air now is hitting the upper lip at an upward angle gives them a high note advantage. Same is true for straight/downstream players with gaps or broken teeth,etc. More upper lip suface to play on,etc. Even tho the upstreamers well use the lower lip more
@Dizzyphan On some downstream players and on pretty much all upstream players the musician will pull everything *down* to ascend, so I don't think the upper lip "rises" as you're suggesting. It's hard to say exactly what you mean, because I haven't seen it when doing my research. Have you looked at a lot of brass players in a transparent mouthpiece to see if what you're expecting is actually true?
You may get a better idea if you watch more of the videos on my channel. See the Leno film.
@wilktone Looked for the "Leno" film as you say but can't find it. Now that I see you're a trombone/low brass guy I think you're analisese are more for that instruments' large mouthpiece. It's different for trumpet.
Many great high note players have broken or chipped front tooth or a gap between their teeth. Thus these players have more upper lip surface to play on which aides the upper register. They usually get it early on in childhood even. Reason is that as the upper lip ascends and even if the lip tissues get even with the bottom of the top teeth, if there's a gap or a hole caused by a chip the lip has more "meat" to play on,etc.
Ok....I'm of the belief of trying to keep as much top lip in a trumpet cup as comfortably possible. Why? Because the top lip starts rising as you ascend. When the top lip tissues get even with the bottom of the top teeth the sound shuts off. If you're playing trumpet already with the top lip almost out of the cup you'll get note shut off often. Of course too I agree with what's comfortable and natural for the player. Broken teeth, gaps between teeth also play a huge role in upper register.
@Dizzyphan It's not just having "meat" on the upper lip. Upstream players tend to have a very short upper lip in relation to their upper teeth and gums. What you're describing is correct for one of the downstream embouchure types (very high placement).
Take a look at some of my other videos and maybe you'll see where I'm coming from. Thanks for posting.
i play with alot of upper lip in my mouthpeice. and it's starting to really cut up my lips leave a scar. so my upper register is suffering, and i'm afraid for long term damage. i tried changing a bit more by moving it down a bit, but it always slides back up as i play. any advice?
Does the type of mouthpiece matters? well i kno the answer to this but i just know as soon as i started playing on my 5GB mouth piece for trombone, my durability started to slack, i can't play as long anymore, even when i went back to a 61/2, i cant play long, Playing my Fs 3rd octave start to become blarred notes, then i have to stop playing, any suggestions?
I suffered through a constant dose of misconception #2 as an undergrad, thirty years ago. I would absolutely LOVE an opportunity to do a proper analysis of my embouchure and maybe even improve things a bit. Hey, I'm still playing, why not?
@BerkeleyGang I wish you could come talk to my music teacher and get that through his head. He loves saying we need "faster air" and explanation just sounds like "more air."
I'm trying to figure out what embouchure type works best for me. I sort of have a cap on my range, right about at the top of the staff sometimes. If I sent you a video of my embouchure, do you think you could help me out?
I used to play with a lot of bottom lip like the people at the end of the video but my band teacher and my trumpet teacher had me change my embouchure to it being centered.
@dewie159 Sometimes this works, but if you are best suited for the low placement type embouchure you might want to consider changing back. Impossible to say without watching you play, though.
@dewie159 watch the 3 30 min clinics on here by the master Doc Severinsen. Center isnt allways correct for every player i get a better tone justtt left of center since my lips are thinner.
I agree completely with the people below me. You keep practicing with scales & etudes with higher notes one day guess what you might be able to find yourself being able to play a two octave G scale on a trumpet haha. --- happened to my band director in highschool.
Main misconception people told me was "faster air" which in my opinion you can't even really do until you can steadily hit the note you want to play. If anything it just makes the note LOUDER and distorted if you dont have your mouth built up for it.
Just my opinion though because with small bore horns you might even end up overblowing and not in a good way.. Great video.
@ExternalGod As an engineer, the term "faster air" was completely unintelligable to me. What do you mean faster air? More pressure? Less resistance? How exactly do you get "faster air?" Bernouli's law still applies, right? It must be a similie for something ELSE that those giving me advice are trying to get me to do. I wish educators would stop using misleading terms like "faster air."
@MrAwesome961 As danielwills93 wrote, the Kelly mouthpieces are useful here. Most of my research has been done with these mouthpieces as they are cheap and easy to replace when they start to develop small cracks (which is inevitable over time).
While I mostly advocate the 2/3 upper 1/3 lower lip rule for my students, I do have a small handful that sound better doing something different. In the end, what works (while still being efficient) is what should be done.
Do you know of any research relating to the mouthpiece placement compared to over/under-bite, chin shape, lip shape, or mouth interior shape (teeth size, alignment, and so on)?
@bassclefed My dissertation research looked at the correlation between embouchure types and anatomical factors.
My point about "paralysis by analysis" is that it's a myth. Paralysis is caused by improper analysis or doing it at the wrong time. There's nothing wrong with analysis used properly.
@wilktone I just love the line. Have it written in on one of my music stands because I used to find myself overthinking the little things when sometimes you just have to play and let it happen.
umm question what if ur a tuba player, would u still hav to place ur upper lips on the rim of the mouthpiece to make a good quality sound? cos i tried it in one performance once and the conductor told me to sit the rest of the performance out hahah nw dat i think of it, that was kind of a funny situation lmbo :L
@leenrub I can't believe how well the Pete actually works. I bought it a little while ago and I was skeptical at first as to if it would do anything. I'm not going to say I went from 5 minutes of good playing to being able to play for days, but my endurance has gotten much better, and I would only think it'll keep improving.
I can only make a sound if I place the embouchure sligthly to the left or to the right on my lips. If I place it exactly at the center, I cant make it sound. Should I train and force the center position ou I can proceed the way I can now?
danmusic2008 18 hours ago
@danmusic2008 Don't worry about an off center placement. Put the mouthpiece where it works best, not with what looks centered. Lot's of fantastic players have off-center placements.
wilktone 15 hours ago
how exactly do you hit higher notes past concert b flat with the ledger lines under it
ddparker95 2 days ago
@ddparker95 I'd need to be able to watch you play to help you. If you can find a teacher who can help you with breathing and your embouchure that should help.
wilktone 2 days ago
I was terrible - until I found my own emboucher - its almost a trumpet emboucher for high notes
And a tuba emboucher for lower notes
And almost none at all for below the staff.
noonedude101 3 days ago
all good and interesting but what about when using an embouchure cause the muscles to become so tense that you are no longer to play your instrument because of the amount of pain that will be incurred from using tensions in the "chops"
srorasco1 5 days ago
@srorasco1 I'd have to see it to offer any suggestions. It sounds like there's something going on in the embouchure form that isn't happening correctly. Perhaps playing on the wrong embouchure type or inconsistent embouchure form.
wilktone 5 days ago
I've played the saxophone in my marching/concert band for 6 years, jazz for 2, but this year I'm taking a change in pace and learning to play trombone. It's difficult because all I really have to go off of is the tips my music teacher has given the brass players over the years. Where should I start? Any tips would be appreciated :)
xb00mdeeboomx 1 week ago
@xb00mdeeboomx Firm your embouchure before placing the mouthpiece and practice keeping your lips center just touching while breathing through the mouth corners.
wilktone 5 days ago
ok so i play the trombone, and im trying to play the french horn, but i find the mouthpiece is kinda small and im having trouble. i usually play the trombone with a tiny bit more lower lip, so what do you recommend i do for the horn? (i have braces too, but im getting them off soon so ill prob have to re-learn sorta :P)
Thanks in advance
skawo4 1 week ago
@skawo4 Different approach on both. I'd use the largest "French" horn mouthpiece I could find when doubling on lower brass. Works for me. Find something 18.00 mm cup diameter.
gsmonks 5 days ago
@gsmonks great, that gives me a better of what to look for, thanks a bunch
skawo4 2 days ago
@gsmonks I'd generally recommend using the same embouchure type for any brass doubling you do. The same basic types are found on all brass instruments. Depending on the player, some brass doublers prefer to use as extreme a difference between sizes as possible and some prefer to get as close as possible. It really depends on the player.
wilktone 1 day ago
Mississippi State, eh?
bull912000 1 week ago
I play the horn with more upper lip in the mouthpiece, but when I play the trumpet, i need to have more lower lip in the mouthpiece.
furballmunchkinshiga 1 week ago
@furballmunchkinshiga That's a little unusual. My guess would be that it would be best if you could figure out which placement will work best for both and stay with one, rather than switch between two embouchure types. Hard to say without watching you play.
wilktone 1 week ago
Comment removed
furballmunchkinshiga 1 week ago
go trombones!!!!!!!!
mightybooshhorse100 2 weeks ago
I know a great Trombone player who uses the tongue instead the lower lip. The air flows between upper lip and tongue...
Passokah666 2 weeks ago
@Passokah666 I've seen this as a trick, but I wouldn't recommend you play this way.
wilktone 2 weeks ago
@Passokah666 And how does he make an attack?
ChristianFire7 2 weeks ago
CONTINUATION: This embouchure, for whatever reason, greatly increases my range (about a whole octave). I can easily switch between embouchures with no problem whatsoever. I have been told that this can cause damage to my lips. Is that true?
username1746 3 weeks ago
@username1746 It sounds like your jaw position is working for you. Everyone has different anatomy and what works for your teacher might not work best for you. If your teacher instructs a "one size fits all" embouchure then it is wrong. Use what works best for you.
wilktone 3 weeks ago
I play with my trumpet pointed at an angle downward but I keep my head up. Inevitably, this creates what my teacher says is an "underbite" he says that this is wrong and I should not play this way. I have heard from another teacher that this embouchure is harder to play high on but gets a better sound. But he did not say it was wrong. Is there something wrong with the way I prefer to play? I can also play with the trumpet slightly to either side of my mouth but with no "underbite". This embouch
username1746 3 weeks ago
also, getting lip surgery to relieve an abscess doesnt help your embouchure... it only makes it less fuzzy sounnding as you change your embouchure, thus reinforcing that some embouchures are better than others. once i changed it after having surgery to accompany scarring, my problems literally disappeared.
MasterOfDisguise116 1 month ago
@MasterOfDisguise116 The best embouchure is the one that fits your unique anatomy. One embouchure isn't better than another, as long as it works with your physiology and not against it. What works best for you won't work so well for others and vice versa.
wilktone 1 month ago
with the french horn mouthpiece however, there is a correct way to play it. because its conical in shape and not cupped you need to adjust it so that its more top lip than bottom. Of course it varies between person to person, but the appeture for the mouthpiece is very small and needs to be adjusted properly.
MasterOfDisguise116 1 month ago
@MasterOfDisguise116 The main difference between horn and the other brass instrument's embouchures is a matter of scale. The same basic types are found on all brass and in about the same ratio, despite what horn texts usually say.
wilktone 1 month ago
Is it easier to play higher notes with a lower lip embouchere?
I play trombone (only 2 years) and the highest note I can really hit consistently is only a G and I really want to improve my range
speeps84 1 month ago
@speeps84 It's only easier if you happen to have the physiology that makes that placement work better. Try it and see what happens. Most players want to place with more upper lip inside.
wilktone 1 month ago
@speeps84 Just develop what you feel is right, I couldn't play a G till about 3 years in... however on that 3rd year I was able to expand my range to a D. Just keep strengthening your muscles, don't blame your embouchure if it feels right, develop your muscles and it will come. Good luck.
Art2Fly 2 weeks ago
@Art2Fly Well, yes and no. It's important to develop the muscles, but all players have one embouchure type that will work best for their whole range. Sometimes players have a placement that forces them into the wrong embouchure type and in this case no amount of practice will make this incorrect placement work for them.
But it's often necessary to build muscles before the proper embouchure type becomes apparent.
wilktone 2 weeks ago
@wilktone I know very well about this subject, that's why I said, play with what feels right. I have a slight under-bite and my teeth are messed up due to an accident several years ago, thus i play slightly to my right and down, it feels right that way. I did have my fair share of private teachers tell me that this was wrong, but I made it my goal to prove them wrong by surprising them over and over again.
Art2Fly 2 weeks ago
@Art2Fly Cool. As a different example, though, I played all the way through grad school on a placement that felt fine, but just didn't work for me. Everyone is different and it's hard to generalize. Just placing where it "feels right" doesn't always work for all players.
Thanks for watching and for your comments!
wilktone 2 weeks ago
great videos! - Paul
PaulTheTrombonist 1 month ago 2
I play with a slight 'stroke' embrouchure, where my jaw moves down and to the right very slightly, so from one side i look as if there is not much lip whereas on the other side average lip showing , i play with my bottom lip undershot to my top lip. I'm 16, decent stamina(apparently!) grade 7/8 :)
SmartieRockz 1 month ago
But, I'm not saying that anything that everyone else teaches is wrong. The overall goal of any kind of teaching is to help the player become proficient (at least) on their instrument, and there are many different methods to accomplishing this. Me? I'm a trumpet student at Morehead State University, in Greg Wing's studio. He uses the William Adam Method of teaching trumpet (a Kinesthetic approach), and it works better for me than the analytical approach that my teacher used in high school.
MrDustyK 1 month ago
I do agree that everyone's embouchure is different. I, personally, play 50/50 or maybe 40/60 top/bottom on the mouthpiece depending on the register. However, do to my professor's method, I try not to analyze it. If you sound good, your endurance is good, your technique is good, and there isn't any facial damage or anything, then why worry about making sure your embouchure is correct? Now, if your embouchure inhibits your playing ability, then a change needs to be made.
MrDustyK 1 month ago
@MrDustyK It's your professor's job to analyze your chops, that's why you're taking lessons. Still, I think it's a good thing to learn about how brass embouchures actually function and to not take these myths seriously. Analysis by itself isn't good or bad, it's how you analyze and how you apply it that's important. Often teachers who don't understand embouchure dismiss analysis, which isn't always helpful.
wilktone 1 month ago
I can certainly accept #5 as false. I sound better playing trumpet with more lower lip in the mouthpiece and find it easier to function, but everyone tells me I don't know what I'm doing since I haven't been playing trumpet for very long.
RedChameleon78 1 month ago
I play on my right side...and I play TUBA
MrTubaman93 1 month ago
All I want are Dizzy Gillespie cheeks.
pveg65 1 month ago
I play slightly off center :)
SarahMcKissick 1 month ago
"You shouldn't place the rim on the red of the upper lip" is NOT a misconception. The videos you used to support this being a misconception show no players actually playing in the red on the upper lip, only low mouthpiece placement. As long as the rim of the mouthpiece is not on the red of the lips it doesn't matter how low or how high. However, getting off the red is crucial. Having studied with him for 4 years, I can say that Wynton does NOT play on the red and advised me to get off the red.
hotlipsporter 1 month ago
@hotlipsporter Are we going to go around again? Wynton has a low placement, which is what I demonstrate with many of the pros in this video. I place on the red and so do a handful of other fine players I've shown in other videos. There is no anatomical feature that would suggest your opinion is plausible for all players.
What works for you does not work for others, which is the main point of this whole video. Take a closer look around you and maybe you'll confirm this vital fact yourself.
wilktone 1 month ago
@wilktone The inner part of the lips are more fragile and more prone to damage. This holds true for EVERYONE. I'm sure there is an abundance of scientific data to back this up. If you are going to make a ridiculous statement about not playing in the red being a misconception, then back it up! Where is the video of a phenomenal trumpet player playing in the upper red of the top lip? Why is it that the greatest players in the world don't do it? Coincidence?
hotlipsporter 1 month ago
Charlie, I have discussed this with you in other fora a couple of other times. Apparently you don't recall the sources I've cited, including academic research, brass texts, anatomy texts, video documentation, and medical sources that I've spoken with about this very question. The burden of proof has been on you. Cite those scientific sources you mention.
There is *always* rim placed on the red. If it were so fragile, you would notice it already. What works for you is not universal.
wilktone 1 month ago
@hotlipsporter And there are examples of fine brass players placing on the red in this video and others on my channel. It's not all that hard to find, if you bother to look.
wilktone 1 month ago
@wilktone You miss the point. You said it was a misconception and followed that bold statement up with videos that featured players with low placement but NOT playing in the top red. If you are going to make a statement like that, follow it directly with videos of players playing that way. Of course, there is always going to be some rim touching the side, but having the very top and bottom of the rim off the red makes it unnecessary to use brute force, because the lip is not paralyzed.
hotlipsporter 1 month ago
@hotlipsporter Charlie please look at this video again. Some of those players definitely place the mouthpiece on the red of the lips (plmmnlease also consider the entire rim, not just the outer diameter). Those that do aren't using "brute force." It has to do more with the size of the vermilion and the relationship between the length of the upper lip to the teeth/gums.
wilktone 1 month ago
@hotlipsporter You're a fine player and I'm sure you mean well, but these comments are a poor medium for an intellectual debate. I'll try to find time to compile some of the things I've pointed out to you before and post them on my web site. If you wish to continue this conversation you can do so there.
wilktone 1 month ago
@hotlipsporter and anyone else who wants to see my detailed responses to his comments here can find a link in the video description. On that page I deal with misconceptions that Charlie and others have about the physiology of the lips and embouchure form and function. If you have additional criticisms or corrections, the comments section on my web site is a good place to make them and doesn't limit your comments by a certain number of characters.
wilktone 1 month ago
What's the name of the mouthpiece at 4:42? Please if someone knowss
xxaleckzandurrex 1 month ago
@xxaleckzandurrex Same here. I'm curious about that myself.
AirstripBum 1 month ago
@maltesers55 Mouthpiece placement is personal. Please watch some other videos I've posted to see some of the variety and also to see how this makes an embouchure upstream or downstream.
wilktone 1 month ago
@wilktone Hello wilktone. Great lessons postings. I just started trumpet a little over a month ago. I am self taught, on sax, and other instruments. Sax embouchure has developed well. On the trumpet, I have to be disciplined to be patient, and take it slow. I'm playing notes C through G. I spend a great deal of the time playing long notes. Have played a few exercises with the notes learned. Does learning trumpet always take such a slow path initially?
renaissanceman165 1 month ago
@wilktone Because When first learning the alto sax, I noticed improvement in my embouchure within a week. Made great progress. Very satisfying. On trumpet I was able to produce notes by the second day. Embouchure has become more relaxed in recent weeks, since I started almost two months ago. Does embouchure development for trumpet always take several weeks. Though tempted, I won't move forward till I am playing the notes I've learned consistently. I'm a perfectionist, but must be patient.
renaissanceman165 1 month ago
@renaissanceman165 takes several years sorry
timbatrombone 1 month ago
@timbatrombone Thank you. Perfection is always a constant process. Atleast I know it's not me.Don't wanna wait years though. LOL
renaissanceman165 1 month ago
Off center players ftw :D
RutterGutters 1 month ago 25
@maltesers55 The air probably *shouldn't* go straight down the mouthpiece. The mouthpiece placement is itself responsible for whether it's downstream (more upper lip) or upstream (more lower lip).
wilktone 1 month ago
ooops took embouchure advice from Dizzy Gillespie:S
XD
crsyjack 1 month ago
My teacher wants me to play around the center of my lips, but I have a missing inscissor tooth on my right, so it is easier for me to play with my embouchure a bit right centered... :P
RacinZilla007 2 months ago
I play trumpet and my mouthpiece doesn't sit in the center of my lips. My teachers say its not good for me. Is there any truth to what they are saying. It sits to the right on my lips.
MissTrumpetGirl 2 months ago
@MissTrumpetGirl It's tricky to tell without seeing it. It's quite possible that the formation of your teeth and the muscles around your mouth dictate that you may be better suited to playing off centre. Nobody's face musclature is completely symmetrical; some less symmetrical than others. When I teach a new player from scratch, I always start them off dead centre (unless they have really wonky teeth) and work with them to gradually find the best position.
pilcharddotorg 2 months ago
Jon Faddis clip from his performance of Body&Soul @3:08
watch?v=hhhC2RhPuNg
strezzedoutz 2 months ago
Thank you for sharing. I learned to play the French Horn late in life at age 39 and never really had formal training. I've been told by so many hornists to play with more upper lip in the mouthpiece. It never worked for me--I was always frustrated knowing I was wrong and they were right. I've found through trial and error that playing slightly lower than center (slightly more lower lip) works best for me and producing a quality sound. So thanks!
lgfuajr 2 months ago
Definitely easier to play with more lower lip in the mouthpiece. At least for me.
meepenator3 2 months ago
Is it weird that I adjust my embouchure? I usually have lip dead center, with an equal amount of lip going op and down, but sometimes, I move my lip and slide them in different directions, so I can tune. I've made the first chair in all county, so I'm obviously a good player but should I abandon that habit?
SoixXxioZ 2 months ago
@SoixXxioZ Hell yea you did bro. i Still made all county but second chair but i made all state wtf...
TheEternallifeskater 2 months ago
@TheEternallifeskater Stalker o-o
SoixXxioZ 2 months ago
@SoixXxioZ Depends on what you meant by "adjust." Watch my video here on the "embouchure motion," which might be what you're describing.
wilktone 2 months ago
@wilktone No, well, Kind of.
I used to have a habit of doing that, but I notice that when I do that, it makes my notes sound, fuzzier.
I mean kind of, in this sense. In a band scenario, if I find myself to be flat or sharp, in comparison to the band, I might tighten my lips, or indeed slip it up higher, or lower, like in your video, so that we sound closer in tune.
I've never been told not to do so, nor has anyone seen me do it, but I've found it weird.
SoixXxioZ 2 months ago
@SoixXxioZ The "embouchure motion" is proper for good embouchure technique. If it makes your tone fuzzy and out of tune you're doing it wrong.
I'd have to see your chops to help you more.
wilktone 2 months ago
@wilktone Well, I mean in a normal band scenario, you can't hear it, but when I'm by myself playing, I can notice it.
It's not a blaring thing, just I find myself with a better tone playing without embouchure motion, however, in your video, the embouchure motion was used to higher notes and perhaps lower notes, however I use mine, to get in tune.
SoixXxioZ 2 months ago
I play trombone about as far to the right as any mouth piece can go because I built my embeuchure while I had my trombone resting on my shoulder
DontStealMyBacon 3 months ago
Hi, I'm a Euphonium and Bass Trombone player and I have a somewhat of a High placement embouchure. I have found that I collapse my embouchure when slurring down, but this only happens when for example slurring down from a Bb to Bb and I also found this to happen in the higher register as well, but I do not change my embouchure when breathing.
EuphPlayer115 3 months ago
Doc SEVERINSEN
ewtugmol18 3 months ago
@ewtugmol18 Good catch, you're correct!
wilktone 2 months ago
My only question is where can i get one of those cool see through mouthpieces
rikuown 3 months ago 22
@rikuown They are made by Kelly Mouthpieces. Use a search engine to find their site and look for their "crystal clear" color.
wilktone 1 month ago
@rikuown The trombone mouthpiece looks like a Doug Elliott shank with a Lexan cup. The trumpet mouthpiece is a Kelly.
johnhandshoe 2 weeks ago
suggestions on forming or reforming embouchures? Such as getting braces on/off, or beginning players
pwnmonkeyisreal 3 months ago
I play with my trumpet off the the side is this bad...I still have a good and better sound than anyone else in my grade level, but my teacher says it wil hinder my ability to progress later on. Is that true??
clay922 3 months ago
@clay922 Lots of great players place the mouthpiece off center, some a lot. It's hard to say without watching you play, but if that's where your embouchure works best, I'd stick with it and continue working on overall embouchure form. Later another placement may (or may not) become necessary, but if it's best there, stick with it.
wilktone 3 months ago
@clay922
It doesn't seem to have been too much of a problem for Jon Faddis! - I too have used an offset embouchure for over 30 years, so if it works for you...
Appliedimagination 3 months ago
@clay922 Your face muscles aren't symmetrical so why would your embouchure be? Keep with it. Chris Martin (1st chair in the CSO) plays crazy off to the left. It really all depends on the person.
thekent 2 months ago
@clay922 depends on how off to the side you mean. our lead trumpet player in college has his completely off center and he plays cleanly and beautifully
Yoshinori76 2 months ago
@clay922 Read the book by Digby Fairweather,his teeth allow only playing on the side.
valvetrom 2 months ago
Good summary of misconceptions . . . a teacher once forced me to move my emb up dramatically so the top edge wasn't touching the red, and this set me back about a year mentally. Then i had a lesson with Malcolm McNab and he said my embouchure looked great!
knoxsummerour 3 months ago
I play trumpet and in 6th grade, when I started, I played on the side of my mouth because I didn't have a stand, so I used my stand on the right side of my bed and that's where I play. Any suggestions?
Mistric24 3 months ago
hello....i have a great deal of questions that cant fit into this comment concerning my embouchure. I was wondering if i could post a video response of me playing and asking questions and have you tell me what my main problems are.
meatbagger 3 months ago
Excelente, el mismo concepto que mi profe, muchas gracias!
sugusba 3 months ago
What Kind of mouth piece is the one with the gold rim?
Keaneyboy1 3 months ago
lololol i use a totally different embouchure xD
GrandTheftHollow 3 months ago
Thanks! I play Tuba, and this helped me.
TheCrossedeyefreak 3 months ago
Hola,yo estudio tromepta hace 7 años,y tengo la embocadura baja,y corrida un poquito hacia la derecha...pero yo toco sin ningun problema...que es lo peor que me puede pasar!?..muchas gracias!
andresiorio 4 months ago
my teacher tries to do all of this...
siegetank55 4 months ago
QUE CHEVERE SI HUBIERA UNA VERSION CON SUBTITULADA PARA LOS LATINOS QUE AUN NO HABLAMOS INGLES...SI ALGUIEN ME PUEDE AYUDAR SE LO AGRADEZCO...UN ABRAZO PARA TODOS
andresfp1 4 months ago
@andresfp1 Hola. Mi espanol es muy mal. Necesito ayuda con traducciones al español. Algún día me gustaría hacer traducciones de mis videos para arriba. Por el momento, se puede intentar ir a mi sitio web (wilktone.com) y el uso de Google Translate para leer parte del texto de estos videos.
wilktone 4 months ago 4
@wilktone hello you can find me at my channel: Olafmortensen. I can help you with the translation.
chema50643 2 months ago
QUE CHEVERE SI HUBIERA UNA VERCION CON SUBTITULADA PARA LOS LATINOS QUE AUN NO HABLAMOS INGLES...
andresfp1 4 months ago
QUE LINDO QUE HUBIERA UNA VERSION EN ESPAÑOL...POR FA
andresfp1 4 months ago
Wow....I am not guessing based on how I play, that's a big stretch. Heck....it seems that you think a trumpet embouchure is "upstream" because the horn angles straight out or because a player uses more bottom lip in the cup?? My horn goes straight out and I'm about 50/50 in my lip placement and I'm not playing "upstream" by any definition. Look at any video of Faddis on here and you'll see his horn is pointing DOWN much of the time.
Dizzyphan 4 months ago
I think you're title here should be more about "trombone" or "low brass" embouchures, since that's most of what I see on your channel. (Still can't find the Leno one,heh) Trumpet is way different and because the mouthpiece is smaller players are haunted by note shut off problems, something I've not seen with trombonists I've asked. We also have a "gap" setting which bone players tell me they don't have. Humor me cuz I think I've picked up a couple things since I started playing in 1968 eh? :)
Dizzyphan 4 months ago
@Dizzyphan In order to see my points you should go to my YouTube channel and watch more of my video presentations. You can also see Lloyd Leno's film there. You have some misunderstandings on how brass embouchures actually function. Then you will understand what makes an upstream embouchure and how the embouchure motion works. You can't just guess based on how you play, everyone is different and you need to study the inner embouchure.
Humor me, since wrote my dissertation on embouchures.
wilktone 4 months ago
@wilktone Your dissertation should/would be based on trombone and low brass embouchures not trumpet. Trumpet is way different because of the smaller mouthpiece and tighter air column involved. I'll look for this "Leno" film again, but if he's a bone player your point on trumpet embouchure are still moot. :)
Dizzyphan 4 months ago
@wilktone Yeah....looked again and can't find anything with a title of "Leno" in it, sorry.
Dizzyphan 4 months ago
@wilktone Ok....watched 3 of Leno's films. BTW...I've played twice with Watrous in the past. Great player. I think NOW I might be understanding of what you're talking about when you say "downstream...upstream". You're talking about all being inside the cup and if the air is pointing to the top of the cup or bottom right? It "might" apply to trumpet somewhat but also in order to facilitate an upstream most players playing that way their jaw protrudes forwards and the horn points upwards.
Dizzyphan 4 months ago
@Dizzyphan Thanks for taking the time to look through my channel, yes you have the grasp of my descriptions now. You'll either have to look for yourself or trust me when I say trumpet embouchures are the same as all the other brass, just a smaller scale.
Really, don't take my word for this, look for yourself. Best still, make your own videos and post them so we can all learn and keep expanding our knowledge.
Thanks.
wilktone 4 months ago
@wilktone Yeah....it's the same but it isn't. Only thing the same is about the buzz in the mouthpiece. Young trumpet players playing on what's considered a large trumpet piece who go almost all bottom lip have a tendency to lose notes because their top lip gets kicked out. This also plays into the top lip rising, which it DOES in a trumpet embouchure.
Dizzyphan 4 months ago
@wilktone I have a video on here of me playing Mendez' "Macarena". You tell me if you think I'm upstream or not, LOL. Sorry for missing the double A on the end......it "shut off" mostly due to being nervous and tired and the top lip rose even with my upper front teeth. I think it's kind of hard to tell on a trumpet even WITH a clear Kelly mouthpiece, everything's so small to see inside the cup. Trumpet pieces don't have enough room to move around like bone pieces,etc.
Dizzyphan 4 months ago
BTW...you ask if I had looked at a lot of players through a clear plastic mouthpiece. Well...yes my young students, but my teacher of 24 years also took plaster casts of many lead trumpet players teeth starting with Bud Brisbois and did a whole study on this. And again.....when I reccomended more top lip was reffering to straight or downstream players like myself. Upstream players you can see easily in that the horn is either tilted upwards or their heads tilt downwards or combo of the two.
Dizzyphan 4 months ago
To show my point just look at Jon Faddis, Severinsen when he was young, and even Bergeron now admits about his broken tooth. He went to fix it and had to have it unfixed quick cuz his embouchure centers around it. There a physical reasons "why" certain things happen well for high notes....it's not magic, heh.
Dizzyphan 4 months ago
@Dizzyphan Faddis and Severinsen are both upstream players. This means they both have more lower lip inside the mouthpiece, different from what you recommended below (you said keep as much upper lip inside as you can below).
wilktone 4 months ago
@wilktone ummm.....no...they're not. If they were their horns would be tilted at a slight angle upwards.
Dizzyphan 4 months ago
@Dizzyphan Look at my video on embouchures and air stream direction. You are mistaken.
wilktone 4 months ago
@wilktone You are coming from a trombone and low brass perspective. All I see on your channel are videos showing trombone and low brass. This is different from trumpet. I'm not mistaken here.
Dizzyphan 4 months ago
@wilktone I've watched that video. Mostly trombone embouchures. Also I'd agree with Claude Gordon over you about "embouchure motion" . Even Doc says keep the corners still, but in your videos I think you talke about some "allowed" motion,etc. Again.....dealing with mostly trombone and low brass I can see your point there for that. It's something different for trumpet and higher brass. "Let the air do the work" as CG would say. I think he's right on this.
Dizzyphan 4 months ago
@wilktone Ok now I finally found some videos on Leno just doing a search for his name. Great videos, but it's all TROMBONE embouchure tho. Fact is that trumpet players don't have the same kind of "room" dealing with their set as you bone players do. When we're talking about german/french upstream embouchure for trumpet the horn angles upwards with the jaw coming forward like I've mentioned.
Dizzyphan 4 months ago
@wilktone It is usually trumpet players who have extreme underbites that play upstream naturally, IE Sammy Davis Jr. would be an upstream player for example, lower teeth in front of upper teeth,etc. Therefore it looks to me that this "upstream" term you are using is different than what we trumpet players would use/define it,etc.
Dizzyphan 4 months ago
@wilktone The tissues in the top lip DO rise...you can't see it tho. When the bottom of the top lip gets even with the bottom edge of the two front teeth the sound and vibration shuts off. An upstream player his horn will be tilted slightly upwards and his jaw forward a bit thus utilizing more bottom lip and hitting the top lip at an able thus an easier high note capacity. Those with underbites are natrually prone to upstream or "German/French" embouchure.
Dizzyphan 4 months ago
Yeah...I wasn't talking about upstream actually of course. More straight out or downstream players which is a huge majority I find on my end. My point is that the upper lip in any case DOES rise even on upstream players. The fact that the air now is hitting the upper lip at an upward angle gives them a high note advantage. Same is true for straight/downstream players with gaps or broken teeth,etc. More upper lip suface to play on,etc. Even tho the upstreamers well use the lower lip more
Dizzyphan 4 months ago
@Dizzyphan On some downstream players and on pretty much all upstream players the musician will pull everything *down* to ascend, so I don't think the upper lip "rises" as you're suggesting. It's hard to say exactly what you mean, because I haven't seen it when doing my research. Have you looked at a lot of brass players in a transparent mouthpiece to see if what you're expecting is actually true?
You may get a better idea if you watch more of the videos on my channel. See the Leno film.
wilktone 4 months ago
@wilktone Looked for the "Leno" film as you say but can't find it. Now that I see you're a trombone/low brass guy I think you're analisese are more for that instruments' large mouthpiece. It's different for trumpet.
Dizzyphan 4 months ago
Many great high note players have broken or chipped front tooth or a gap between their teeth. Thus these players have more upper lip surface to play on which aides the upper register. They usually get it early on in childhood even. Reason is that as the upper lip ascends and even if the lip tissues get even with the bottom of the top teeth, if there's a gap or a hole caused by a chip the lip has more "meat" to play on,etc.
Dizzyphan 4 months ago
Ok....I'm of the belief of trying to keep as much top lip in a trumpet cup as comfortably possible. Why? Because the top lip starts rising as you ascend. When the top lip tissues get even with the bottom of the top teeth the sound shuts off. If you're playing trumpet already with the top lip almost out of the cup you'll get note shut off often. Of course too I agree with what's comfortable and natural for the player. Broken teeth, gaps between teeth also play a huge role in upper register.
Dizzyphan 4 months ago
@Dizzyphan It's not just having "meat" on the upper lip. Upstream players tend to have a very short upper lip in relation to their upper teeth and gums. What you're describing is correct for one of the downstream embouchure types (very high placement).
Take a look at some of my other videos and maybe you'll see where I'm coming from. Thanks for posting.
wilktone 4 months ago
i play with alot of upper lip in my mouthpeice. and it's starting to really cut up my lips leave a scar. so my upper register is suffering, and i'm afraid for long term damage. i tried changing a bit more by moving it down a bit, but it always slides back up as i play. any advice?
tpthash1029 4 months ago
Does the type of mouthpiece matters? well i kno the answer to this but i just know as soon as i started playing on my 5GB mouth piece for trombone, my durability started to slack, i can't play as long anymore, even when i went back to a 61/2, i cant play long, Playing my Fs 3rd octave start to become blarred notes, then i have to stop playing, any suggestions?
sidman1408 4 months ago
I suffered through a constant dose of misconception #2 as an undergrad, thirty years ago. I would absolutely LOVE an opportunity to do a proper analysis of my embouchure and maybe even improve things a bit. Hey, I'm still playing, why not?
RhubarbTheBear 4 months ago
I have had a lot of problems with range and I believe it is from my placement. Can I make a video and you analyze it sometime?
EricJKollwitz 4 months ago
Why am I watching this? I play clarinet.
Shadus13 5 months ago 70
@Shadus13 ask yourself, not us, but stick to the reed. It is much easier.
Brass playing is hell of a life.
Musiclover49619 4 months ago
@Shadus13 lololololololololololololol
Kwintessence 2 months ago
@Shadus13 because trumpets are the center of the universe, and it's normal that you are attracted to the general awesomeness of trumpet playing.
Diavolino1988 2 months ago
@Diavolino1988 Well played sir... Well played.
Shadus13 2 months ago
Great VIDEO MAN!
theBikerdirt 5 months ago
si la pudieran poner en español gracias!!! esque yo no pichinglish
COMUNICACIONESWP 5 months ago
haha juan pablo torres. :D Awesome
nef18 5 months ago
@BerkeleyGang I wish you could come talk to my music teacher and get that through his head. He loves saying we need "faster air" and explanation just sounds like "more air."
DragoRidley17 5 months ago
Very informative thanks
Mast3rSkillz 5 months ago
I'm trying to figure out what embouchure type works best for me. I sort of have a cap on my range, right about at the top of the staff sometimes. If I sent you a video of my embouchure, do you think you could help me out?
Cumpozr 5 months ago
lol it is funny to watch people's lips in the mouthpieces
Joebone18974 5 months ago
What are some of the long term injuries that could happen you mentioned about?
euphoniumhumper 5 months ago
I used to play with a lot of bottom lip like the people at the end of the video but my band teacher and my trumpet teacher had me change my embouchure to it being centered.
dewie159 6 months ago
@dewie159 Sometimes this works, but if you are best suited for the low placement type embouchure you might want to consider changing back. Impossible to say without watching you play, though.
wilktone 6 months ago
@dewie159 Get a downstream mouth piece.
castmemberzack 5 months ago
@dewie159 watch the 3 30 min clinics on here by the master Doc Severinsen. Center isnt allways correct for every player i get a better tone justtt left of center since my lips are thinner.
SRV1 4 months ago
I agree completely with the people below me. You keep practicing with scales & etudes with higher notes one day guess what you might be able to find yourself being able to play a two octave G scale on a trumpet haha. --- happened to my band director in highschool.
ExternalGod 6 months ago
Main misconception people told me was "faster air" which in my opinion you can't even really do until you can steadily hit the note you want to play. If anything it just makes the note LOUDER and distorted if you dont have your mouth built up for it.
Just my opinion though because with small bore horns you might even end up overblowing and not in a good way.. Great video.
ExternalGod 6 months ago
@ExternalGod As an engineer, the term "faster air" was completely unintelligable to me. What do you mean faster air? More pressure? Less resistance? How exactly do you get "faster air?" Bernouli's law still applies, right? It must be a similie for something ELSE that those giving me advice are trying to get me to do. I wish educators would stop using misleading terms like "faster air."
BerkeleyGang 6 months ago
Can you buy clear mouth pieces for trombone
MrAwesome961 7 months ago
@MrAwesome961 Look up 'Kelly' mouthpieces, they have cornet through to tuba mouthpieces in different colours including 'crystal clear'.
danielwills93 7 months ago
@MrAwesome961 As danielwills93 wrote, the Kelly mouthpieces are useful here. Most of my research has been done with these mouthpieces as they are cheap and easy to replace when they start to develop small cracks (which is inevitable over time).
wilktone 6 months ago
One of the best brass playing videos on YouTube.
While I mostly advocate the 2/3 upper 1/3 lower lip rule for my students, I do have a small handful that sound better doing something different. In the end, what works (while still being efficient) is what should be done.
Do you know of any research relating to the mouthpiece placement compared to over/under-bite, chin shape, lip shape, or mouth interior shape (teeth size, alignment, and so on)?
"Paralysis by analysis" is my fav quote ever.
bassclefed 7 months ago
@bassclefed My dissertation research looked at the correlation between embouchure types and anatomical factors.
My point about "paralysis by analysis" is that it's a myth. Paralysis is caused by improper analysis or doing it at the wrong time. There's nothing wrong with analysis used properly.
wilktone 7 months ago
@wilktone I just love the line. Have it written in on one of my music stands because I used to find myself overthinking the little things when sometimes you just have to play and let it happen.
bassclefed 7 months ago
umm question what if ur a tuba player, would u still hav to place ur upper lips on the rim of the mouthpiece to make a good quality sound? cos i tried it in one performance once and the conductor told me to sit the rest of the performance out hahah nw dat i think of it, that was kind of a funny situation lmbo :L
rougewerm 7 months ago
Respond to this video...
wilktone 7 months ago
@rougewerm You want to place the mouthpiece where it works best for you, wherever that might happen to be.
wilktone 7 months ago
Yeah on number five I play way better with more bottom lip
Brunofox213 7 months ago
Dr. Hauser and Ed. Wow. I know and have worked with both of them.
shutupzeke37 9 months ago
the P.E.T.E works?
leenrub 9 months ago
@leenrub I can't believe how well the Pete actually works. I bought it a little while ago and I was skeptical at first as to if it would do anything. I'm not going to say I went from 5 minutes of good playing to being able to play for days, but my endurance has gotten much better, and I would only think it'll keep improving.
jhtrumpetgeek 9 months ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
This video is a complete waste of time.
24262748 10 months ago