13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul tells the Christians in Galatians 3:27 that as many who have been baptized in Christ have put on Christ. Baptism is a condition but so is faith. If you consider baptism to be a work, then consider what James wrote in his letter (2:26) which says 'For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead'. James impressed on the readers to show their faith by their works. If baptism would be considered a work, then it's a work that seals our salvation.
@JaeZ76 Baptism is a work of righteousness. Compare Titus 3:5 with Matt 3:15. James is talking about the outward evidence of a saved life. Compare Romans 4:5 with 1 John 2:19 and 1 John 5:4-5. Also see Matt 13:23
@javypez In Titus 3:5, Paul separates the washing of regeneration from the renewal of the Holy Spirit. Water baptism is the 'washing of regeneration' in this context. The renewal of the Holy Spirit is received. This is proven with Philip and the Eunuch in Acts 9:26 when the Eunuch was baptized in water after hearing the gospel from Philip and again in Acts 10:44-48 when Peter offered up water baptism for believers after the Holy Spirit was received.
@javypez Why do you ask? This seems to be a question off-topic unless I am missing the point. I'm not sure how I will be made to answer for my life on the Day of Judgement except that I know I will confess Him as Lord as I do in this life, give an open account for the things done (and not done) according to His will and accept that I will either live or die a second death which is what really matters. What do you think you will say?
@javypez I think we're digressing on the topic. I too know Jesus paid for my life on the cross but what does that have to do with whether water baptism is required? Let me ask: What was the purpose for the water baptism of the Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts 8 and Cornelius' in Acts 10? Both scriptures clearly state water baptism so what was the purpose and why is it not relevant today?
@JaeZ76 Eph 1:13 states that when one believes on Christ He is sealed with the Holy Spirit, which means he is saved. Romans 8:11 says "if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."
In Acts 8:37 the Eunuch believed on the Lord Jesus before He was water baptized. Cornelius and his house were baptized in the Holy Spirit before water baptism as were the Jews. Even Paul was saved before baptism. He confessed Jesus as Lord and believed He was risen from the dead. Compare Acts 22:10
@javypez "Eph 1:13 states that when one believes on Christ He is sealed" Ok, "sealed". Do you think that the Greek word translated "sealed" means "tightly fastened so it can't be opened" or what? And to what kind of believer is Eph 1: 13 referring?
@JaeZ76 If you BELIEVE the gospel which is that Christ died on the cross for you, because you are a depraved sinner and cannot save yourself, and that He was buried and that God raised Him from the dead the third day, you have eternal life. If you bellieve in the Lord Jesus you are a new creation and WILL overcome the world. If you trust in your own righteousness in the great day, He will say "depart from Me, I never knew you."
@javypez Also, the people of Matt 7:21-23 are cast in the lake of fire becuase they were relying on their works, and works which Christ also commanded to do. He says "I never knew you". Never means they were never saved, not that they were saved at one point and then lost it and "earned" it back. They did not do the will of God. Jesus says in John 6:40 "this is the will of Him...everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlastin life". Trust in Christ alone and you are saved.
@javypez "If you trust in your own righteousness in the great day, He will say "depart from Me, I never knew you." He might say "Depart from me, I know ye not" which could mean "I once knew you, but do not now."
@JaeZ76 In Titus 3:5 the Holy Spirit is also the agent of the "washing of regeneration". Compare 1 Corinthians 6:11 which states that we are washed, sanctified, justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and BY THE SPIRIT OF OUR GOD.
@javypez "In Titus 3:5 the Holy Spirit is also the agent of the "washing of regeneration". That's an assertion - I'll deny it. The Holy Spirit is not even MENTIONED.
@javypez I agree that we will be saved by His mercy and not by our works BUT we need to define 'works'. James also wrote in James 2:14-26 that works without faith is dead. In that letter, he explains that our faith should produce works. Seems contradictory? The works he wrote of are deeds for others (ex: clothing/feeding a brother/sister). If we apply that to Titus 3:5, then true, we are not saved by the good deeds we do for others but water baptism isn't something we do for others.
@javypez "Baptism is a work of righteousness." Then so is "repentance" and so is "confessing belief in Christ", and I, for one, am surprised that you'd advocate salvation without repentance simply because it is some you MUST do (or evidently must not really do). If you DO it, it's a work of some kind - either mental or physical or both. Saved without repentance - without that change in will or willpower produced by Godly sorrow? C'mon now.
@lllannallll Jesus is the Justifier through faith (Rom 3:21-5:11). Repentance means only a change of mind (Strong's Concordance #G3340). You cannot believe in Christ without a change of mind and faith in Christ certainly implies that a change of mind has been made. Repentance always comes before faith (Mat 21:32, Mark 1:15, Act 20:21). Repentance is granted by God (2Tim. 2:25) and faith is the work of God (John 6:29). Those who believe in Christ are those who do not work (Rom 4:5). Its All God
@javypez "You cannot believe in Christ without a change of mind and faith in Christ" Huh? Godly sorrow precedes repentance, and your position is that one repents in order to believe in God? That makes no sense at all. And in Acts 2, the people were told to BELIEVE ... to TRUST .. to KNOW (Let all the house of Israel know ...). Well, they were cut to the heart - why? They believed in the death and resurrection of Jesus and realized what they'd done. They were THEN told to repent.
@lllannallll Nobody in Acts 2 was saved except those who received Peter's words (Acts 2:41). When they received Peters words they recieved that Jesus is Christ and Lord (verse 36), and by receiving this they became children of God (John 1:12). The only ones who repented (verse 38) were the ones who received his word (verse 41). And THEN they were baptized. "Now all who BELIEVED were together" (verse 44).
@javypez Look what you "went and did." You: "When they received Peters words they recieved that Jesus is Christ and Lord (verse 36), and by receiving this they became children of God (John 1:12) Sir, John 1: 12 says believer have .. what? the RIGHT, the liberty of choice and action .. to what? to BECOME children. You imply they ALREADY ARE, and thus contradict the very verse you cite. Then lo and behold, you put "repentance" after "believing." That's some progress, anyway.
@javypez "Nobody in Acts 2 was saved except those who received Peter's words (Acts 2:41)." Right, and not only that, nobody in Acts 2 was saved unless they DID what Peter COMMANDED. You seem to me to have hearing, believing, repenting, baptism, and forgiveness of sins all twisted around in Acts 2. Why don't you NUMBER them for me so it'll be plain and simple?
@javypez "faith is the work of God (John 6:29)." Umm... "What shall WE DO" - what can WE DO - "that we might work the works of God." Your position is ... "not a thing .. you can't do a thing .. be passive, and perchance God might act upon you in some mysterious manner." THIS is the work of God...." This is what you can do - I'm answering you ... "that ye believe on Him who He hath sent." Did Jesus answer their query? You know what they were asking ... were they answered?
@javypez "Those who believe in Christ are those who do not work (Rom 4:5)" Amazing. That's what you get out of that? Those who believe in Christ, trust in Christ, have confidence in Christ .... are very ones that do not work? Well, who did the believing? Do you attempt to distinguish a mental work from a physical one for some vague reason?
@javypez "Repentance always comes before faith " Always? Ever? Question: at the time old Simon was told to repent, was he a believer or not? To ask is to answer, really, and about the only dodge I've ever heard on that is: a saved man somehow ... God only knows HOW ... repents DIFFERENTLY from an unsaved man. Not an ounce of truth in it, but desperate times call for desperate measures, I guess. Totally illogical - almost incoherent. Anyway, what's your take on it?
@lllannallll Obvously anyone can change their mind about things after salvation. After Christ saved me I came under conviction about smoking and I quit. I didnt quit to be saved or to remain saved, I quit because I love the Lord and am saved. Repent in the context of the three verses I supplied is this: "Change your mind and agree that you are a sinner under the wrath of God and need Jesus as your savior."
Anyone who does not remain in the faith was never a true believer (1 John 2:19, 5:4-5)
@javypez "Obvously anyone can change their mind about things after salvation." Certainly so, but remember, according to your position, you are implicitly denying that anyone repents of his/her sins PRIOR TO salvation. The only repentance you'll accept as "the real thing" prior to salvation is some kinda change of mind toward God and Jesus, right? Other than that, repentance from sins would be totally unnecessary. That's why (one reason) that I said, "It's illogical."
@javypez "Correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like you have no assurance of salvation." Certainly. Every person who has trusted in Jesus Christ, repented of his sins, confessed his faith and been immersed into Christ is THEN and THERE forgiven of his past sins, is he not? From there, I have to maintain my faith, remain a believer, "walk in the light", etc. I have the promise of eternal life. So yes, you're wrong on that.
@javypez Oh, go ahead and place the events of Acts 2 in order. It's easy and logical. You have hearing, believing, repenting, being baptized, and forgiveness of sins. Number them in order for me, and we'll both avoid alot of questions, i think.
@javypez What you are doing, possibly without realizing it, is putting forth the position that an unsaved person somehow repents DIFFERENTLY from a saved person, or at least is penitent about different things. I maintain that your position does not allow for repentance for ANY SIN, save possibly unbelief, prior to salvation - and maintaining your position, you will totally contradict the events of Acts 2.
@javypez "Change of mind is only a change of mind." Ummm ... ok. You still deny that repentance from sin is even necessary to salvation, I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.
@javypez "Anyone who does not remain in the faith was never a true believer (1 John 2:19, 5:4-5)" Different subject, but, of course, you are also maintaining that a believer can not POSSIBLY cease to believe. In other words, a saved person - once saved - cannot possibly be deceived by, say, the theory of the big bang/evolution. Or false religions such as Judaism. Heb 6 teaches otherwise.
@lllannallll Heb 6:4-6 teaches that if a person can fall away, they can never be saved again (Heb 6:6). If you lose your salvation, that's your one and only chance. I am not of those who fall away but of those who believe to the saving of the soul (Heb 10:39)
@javypez "Heb 6:4-6 teaches that if a person can fall away, they can never be saved again (Heb 6:6)." No, it doesn't .... the "if" isn't even IN the Greek, although the subjunctive mode is. A better translation is "having fallen away", as Dr. Williams, a Baptist, translates it. I'm glad to hear that YOU are not of those who WILL fall away - just so you admit that the possibility is there. Not likelihood. Possibility. So what if they can't be saved again? They still were saved, then lost.
@javypez "So what you are saying is that believeing in Christ's blood ... " Oh, c'mon. What I'm SAYING is that you can easily read Acts 2 and VERY easily place the order of events in the proper order for all time, but so far, you haven't tried it. Five little things - all you need to do is number then in logical chronological order. Do that, please.
@javypez I still don't see those 5 little things: hearing, believing, repenting, being baptized, and forgiveness of sins, each listed, with a number in front of them. Can you do that, using Acts 2 as a guide?
@lllannallll They heard the word of God (2:14-40). Verse 41 shows they received the word they heard, which means they repented(changed their minds) and believed. Verse 44 shows that they believed. Having believed implies repentance (change of mind). When one believes they receive the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13) and forgiveness of sins (Acts 10:43). So they HEARD, REPENTED, BELIEVED, FORGIVENESS, BAPTIZED. Now answer my question please, is faith in Christ's blood enough to atone for sin?
@javypez "Now answer my question please, is faith in Christ's blood enough to atone for sin?" Do you mean "faith only, before and without anything else"? If so, no - I do not believe one receives remission of sins at the point of a dead faith, but rather a living, active faith working through love. Now, I'll follow up.
@javypez "So they HEARD, REPENTED, BELIEVED, FORGIVENESS, BAPTIZED." Alright, I don't see how you came up with that, but ok. At the point of Acts 2: 37, after the gospel had been preached, when they asked, "What shall we do?", were these people BELIEVERS at this POINT? That's #1.
@javypez #2: "When one believes they receive the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13)" Acts 2: 38: does reception of the gift of the Holy Spirit PRECEDE or FOLLOW repentance and water baptism? Does "unto the remission of sins" (ASV) PRECEDE or FOLLOW water baptism?
@lllannallll Look, you have to break down Acts 2:38 for numerous reasons. If you baptize some one "in the name of Jesus Christ", you will not be "baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" as Jesus commanded in Matt 28. By Peter saying "in the name of Jesus Christ" he simply means "by the authority of Jesus Christ". This can clearly be seen by comparing Acts 3:6, 4:7, 4:18, 5:28, 5:40, 9:27-29, 16:18. So for the remission of sins, how do you reconcile Acts 2:38 with Acts 10:43?
@javypez Me: "At the point of Acts 2: 37, after the gospel had been preached, when they asked, "What shall we do?", were these people BELIEVERS at this POINT?" You: "No" Me: You mean to tell me they heard an entire gospel sermon, concluding with "Let all the house of Israel KNOW that this same Jesus is both Lord and Christ" ... they were "pricked" or "cut" to the heart by these undeniable truths.... they cried out.... yet...umm....didn't believe? You think that's a logical conclusion?
@javypez "By Peter saying "in the name of Jesus Christ" he simply means "by the authority of Jesus Christ". Huh? I know that "in the name of ..." means "by the authority of ... " So what? I asked you if "unto the remission of sins" and "reception of the gift of the Spirit" PRECEDED or FOLLOWS water baptism? And i break down Act 2 because it is the FIRST sermon in which the gospel is proclaimed as an accomplished fact, and it is very logical and sequential.
@lllannallll Is faith in the blood of Christ enough for sin atonement? If you do not answer with a simple yes or no, I will take as you dodging the question and I will stop conversing with you. Please answer.
@javypez "Is faith in the blood of Christ enough for sin atonement? If you do not answer with a simple yes or no" I answered that: it is "no" if, by "faith", you mean a dead faith, faith only, or the equivalent. And since that IS what you mean, I will say that "faith alone"...."faith only"...."dead faith"...whatever phrase you desire that means faith without anything else is NOT sufficient. One must repent of his sins (which you deny), confess Christ (you deny that, too), and be baptized.
@lllannallll So what have you done that is going to get you into heaven? When was your salvation sealed? If God were to say to you "why should I let you in my kingdom", what would you say to Him?
@javypez "I asked you if "unto the remission of sins" and "reception of the gift of the Spirit" PRECEDED or FOLLOWS water baptism?" <-- don't forget that ... by my count, it's your turn to answer. You've already said that "Repent ye and be baptized ... unto the remission..." means (1) repent, (2) believe, (3) remission, and (4) be baptized ... which amazes me. I'd like to see if you flip-flop it again and stick "the gift of the Spirit" BETWEEN "repent" and "be baptized." I wouldnt doubt it.
@lllannallll As soon as I trusted Christ for the blood atonement for my sin, I was baptized in the Holy Spirit and forever saved. Ive done answered your salvation formula twice at least, dont ask me again. Im gonna send to your inbox how I present the gospel, may be you could do the same.
@javypez "As soon as I trusted Christ for the blood atonement for my sin, I was baptized in the Holy Spirit" Well, then it seems #1 that you place reception of the gift of the Spirit prior to baptism, yet Acts 2: 38 plainly after it, and furthermore #2 you claim the baptism of the Spirit, yet you practice water baptism on top of it, so that's two baptisms, whereas, by AD 63, in Eph 4: 4-6, Paul said there was one. Two inexplicable contradictions.
@lllannallll The one baptism of Eph 4 is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. There will only be one baptism in the Holy Spirit because you can only be saved once (Heb 10:10).
@javypez "The one baptism of Eph 4 is the baptism of the Holy Spirit." Then I'd suggest you drop water baptism entirely, if that's the case. The trouble is: you aren't, nor have you ever been, "baptized in the Holy Spirit." Nor have I. There is only one clearcut case of Holy Spirit baptism (the apostles), and possibly Cornelius in Acts 10. Baptism is TOTAL IMMERSION.
@lllannallll I will not drop water baptism. It is commanded by the Lord. If I were to drop His commandments I would also drop the Ten. I cannot be save by the Ten C. but I will still honor, teach, and live by it because Jesus said so ( Matt 5:19).
@javypez 'There will only be one baptism in the Holy Spirit because you can only be saved once (Heb 10:10)." Sounds good, but the verse says "one baptism" ... not "one baptism of the Holy Spirit." I do not claim to now have, or have ever had, Holy Spirit baptism - but if I did, I guess that'd be my "one baptism" - and I wouldn't be going into the water. You claim Holy Spirit baptism PLUS you practice water baptism, yet there's ONE baptism?
@javypez "Im gonna send to your inbox how I present the gospel, may be you could do the same." I don't have to IM: it's simple: read Acts 2. The order is: (1) hear the gospel, (2) be cut or pricked to the heart - believe, (3) repent of your sins, (4) be immersed into Christ, (5) receive the remission of sins, and (6) simultaneous with #5, receive the gift of the Spirit. That's extremely defensible, considering the blueprint in Acts 2: 4-47.
@lllannallll The blue print for salvation is the Gospel. The Gospel is: Christ died for our sins, He was buried, He rose from the dead the third day (1 Cor. 15:1-4). I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES (Romans 1:16). Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the Gospel (1 Cor. 1:17). The message of the cross is foolish to those who perish, but to us who are saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor 1:18).
@lllannallll It pleased God through the meassage preached to save those who BELIEVE (1 Cor. 1:21). He who believes is not condemned (John 3:18). If anyone preaches any other gospel let him be accursed ( Gal 1:9). Those who have faith in Christ have the righteousness of God (Rom. 3:21-28, 2 Cor 5:21, Philip. 3:9). Those who BELIEVE WILL bear fruit (Mat 13:23), continue in the faith (1 John 2:19) and overcome (1 John 5:4-5). Not to be saved, but because saved (John 10:27)
@javypez Here's your position, as best I can tell, and no wonder you don't want it mentioned again: (1) hear the gospel, (2) repent, (3) be pricked in your heart - believe, (4) forgiveness of sins, (5) maybe along with 4, get baptized in the Spirit, and only THEN (5) water baptism. Indefensible. "Repent ye and be baptized every one of you .... unto the remission of your sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." There's your blueprint for conversions from Acts 2 forward.
@javypez Well, all that's well and good, but, honestly, your order of events in Acts to is indefensible - it looks more like you made up your own order simply to line it up with a Baptist Manual instead of logic and common sense. Do you really think those folks received the gift of the Spirit BEFORE baptism when the passage states the opposite? Do you think "unto the remission of sins" somehow follows "ye repent", yet occurs before "be baptized"?
@lllannallll Actually, since the order of events in Acts 2 clearly contradict Acts 10:43-48 and the rest of the Bible, I just tried to see how I, through prayer, could reconcile these passages. Only the blood of Christ can wash away sins, water baptism, according to 1 Peter 3:21 is "not the removal of the filth of the flesh". The word "filth" being defined as "dirt i.e. moral depravity" (Strong's #G4509). And the word "flesh" being defined as "flesh, or human nature, passions" (Stong's #G4561).
@lllannallll Eph 1:13 says "having believed you were sealed with the Holy Spirit". In Acts chp 11 and 15 Peter retails the acount of Cornelius and his house that they received the Spirit through faith just as they did.
@javypez "Peter retails the acount of Cornelius and his house that they received the Spirit through faith just as they did." Peter didn't always relay the account in order, but he did once and he specified it: Acts 11: 4. And the Spirit descended upon Cornelius as Peter began to speak - why? In all honestly, did the Spirit descend to prove that Cornelius was saved after Peter had only spoken a few words? I tend to doubt that, and it plainly contradicts the gospel order in EVERY other case.
@lllannallll Yes, I would also like to know why Peter said "I said began to speak". I have heard that it has to do with the Greek, I dont know. However he said In Acts 11:17 "God gave them the same gift as he gave us when we believed on the Lord". And this is in reference to verse 16, the baptism in the Spirit. In Acts 15:9 he retells the account and says God "purfied their hearts by faith". Again in refernce to the Spirit (verse 8). The receive the Spirit before the water (Acts 10:47).
@javypez "Yes, I would also like to know why Peter said "I said began to speak"." LOL Because he ON TRIAL, and he figured he better do it IN ORDER, and not mess up.
@javypez "Either way you go, water was not necessary for Cornelius to receive the Spirit." Nor was faith. I'll stand by the idea that Cornelius received the Spirit BEFORE Peter said much of anything, certainly just as he began to speak. And I'll stand by the idea that reception of the Spirit does not necessarily indicate salvation anyway.
@lllannallll Cornelius had the Holy Spirit before the water. Those who have the Spirit are God's (Gal 4:6). If anyone does not have the Spirit, he is not God's (rom 8:9).
@javypez "Those who have the Spirit are God's (Gal 4:6)." There's the mistake. The Spirit of God may work for His purpose through unsaved people and things. The Spirit of God came upon wicked King Saul, who later committed suicide - the Spirit also DEPARTED from him, incidentally - and hardly anyone has the effrontery to claim Saul was saved.
@lllannallll Cornelius' heart was purified by the Holy Spirit through faith Acts 15:8-9. He received the Holy spirit when he believed on the Lord Acts 11:16-18
@javypez "He received the Holy spirit when he believed on the Lord Acts 11:16-18" I'll send you $50 if you can find Cornelius believing ANYTHING in Acts 11: 16-17. It's not even THERE in connection with reception of the Holy Spirit. In fact, it's not there, period. The passage simply says God gave THEM (the Gentiles) the like gift as he had given us (the apostles) who had believed on Jesus. That's all.
@javypez Do you see that your position FORCES you to say ... to assume ... #1 that Cornelius suddenly became a believer just as Peter began to speak, yet #2 even when Peter had FINISHED his sermon in Acts 2, you are saying the people did NOT believe? And you have to somehow say that the conversion examples of Acts 2 and Acts 10 simply are CONTRADICTORY? You will not, and cannot, attempt to merge them into one plan.
@javypez "However he said In Acts 11:17 "God gave them the same gift as he gave us when we believed on the Lord". And this is in reference to verse 16, the baptism in the Spirit." That's true. I make no judgement as to whether Cornelius actually received a spiritual gift or Holy Spirit baptism. Most say Holy Spirit baptism, and that's fine with me. No matter which one, it wasn't given to prove he was saved.
@javypez "The receive the Spirit before the water (Acts 10:47)." So? I've asked: do you think that the PURPOSE of the Spirit coming upon Cornelius was to somehow show that he was saved?
@lllannallll I think that the speaking in tounges was to show that he was saved. The fact is, he had the Spirit before the water. Now that contradicts your interpretation of Acts 2:38.
@lllannallll Peter was chosen for God's own purpose. God couldve chose anyone, any Jew. That is for God's own pleasure. I say praise God for whatever reason He chose Peter.
@javypez .... and the crux of the matter is this: the Spirit descended upon someone, whether Saul, Peter, Balaam's ass, Paul, Samson, or Cornelius is NOT for the purpose of proving salvation. There's the problem. You think King Saul was saved because the Spirit came upon him. Well, I must say: he's a strange example of a saved person, especially since the Spirit departed from him. I repeat: miraculous acts of the Spirit are NOT to prove salvation.
@javypez 1 Sam 10: 10 "... and the Spirit of God came upon him (Saul)" Fine. According to Baptist doctrine, this MUST indicate Saul's salvation. Well, I'd reconsider that. Was Saul a saved man? If so, it's mighty strange because the Spirit departed from him, he became an enemy of God, and committed suicide. I'd like to hear your response to that.
@javypez "I say praise God for whatever reason He chose Peter." I say, if you are correct, why send ANYBODY? What purpose did Peter or anyone else SERVE, according to you? NONE, as best I can tell. Cornelius could have "gotten the Spirit" from hearing ANYONE "begin to speak" - or no one. Why'd Cornelius need anyone, including Peter? Certainly not to hear the gospel, for he received the Spirit BEFORE hearing it.
@javypez I'd say you're done with Acts 2, and we won't hear another word about it - the point(s) have been made, and you are intelligent enough to see that no man living can reconcile the order of events in that first sermon in the name of a risen saviour with typical Baptist doctrine. The two won't mesh - and never did. Baptists have to copy and paste, and hop and skip - and I don't see how they do it and keep from laughing. Sorry, but you can see that - everyone can.
@javypez "In Acts 10, the believers receive the Holy Spirit upon faith before water baptism. Explain that." #1 is that you assume that which you must prove. You can't prove they were believers. It amazes me that your position is that Cornelius became a believer just as Peter began to speak - Peter had just started to speak, BUT the folks on Pentecost heard an entire sermon, were cut to the heart, and cried out. Yet you say that at that point, they did NOT believe.
@javypez #2 is that you assume that the reception of the Spirit by Cornelius is FOR THE PURPOSE of indicating his salvation, when it's not. It is for the purpose of demonstrating to Peter and the other old Jews that indeed the Gentiles are fit subjects for conversion. Heretofore, for about 6 or 7 years, the Jewish Christian did not even ATTEMPT to convert a Gentile, and it took a series of miracles to convince them otherwise.
@lllannallll You say "copy and paste, and hop and skip". 2 Tim 2:15 says to "Study (be dilligent)...and RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of truth." Now I am not saying I divid right everytime, but if the Scripture says over and over agian that salvation is not of myself and Christ paid it all, then there has to be some "diligence" and "rightly dividing".
@javypez "You say "copy and paste, and hop and skip" <-- I said that solely with reference to the order of events plainly given in Acts 2, and I've never seen a Baptist yet that could place them in their obvious order without contradicting himself over and over and over. And I haven't. It's not the individual's fault - it's the theology. I couldn't do it either if I were in their shoes.
@javypez I'll touch upon your passage, "Those who BELIEVE WILL bear fruit (Mat 13:23)" You want to re-thing that one? Do you mean to say that every person who believes in Christ, eis Christ, as in Jn 3: 16 WILL, of necessity, produce fruit? I'd be mighty careful with that assertion - and that's all it is.
@lllannallll Absolutely. Some 30 some 60 some 100 fold! You put a 30 degree blackbelt next to a 100 degree blackbelt, the one with the 30 degree wont have such a strong kick next to the one with a 100 degree!
@javypez "the one with the 30 degree wont have such a strong kick next to the one with a 100 degree!" <-- I dont know what you're saying or responding to.
@javypez Need I mention that old wicked Caiaphas prophesied? The very one who condemned Christ? Certainly he wasn't saved. God even opened the mouth of Balaam's ass and caused IT to speak (Numb 22: 28). None of these indicate salvation, either of Caiaphas and certainly not of the ass.
@javypez 'Anyone who condemns Christ is not saved and never was ( 1 John 2:19)" I didn't say he was - I said he prophesied a prophecy FROM GOD. God used him for his purpose and caused him to prophesy. Just because God used him - even to the point of causing him to prophesy - in no way indicates salvation.
@javypez Tis a new day! Don't forget your thoughts on the salvation of King Saul - when the Spirit came upon him, and God gave him a new heart. Add to that this: the Spirit departed from King Saul. Didn't think that could happen? Well, it did. Was he ever saved to start with - with the Spirit upon him and a new heart? Did he lose his salvation when the Spirit departed from him? Don't neglect that example - it's important.
@javypez "If anyone preaches any other gospel let him be accursed ( Gal 1:9)." <-- a little off the subject, but ok. Well, so? What is the gospel? The facts of the gospel are the death, burial, resurrection of Christ. You have to obey that gospel (II Thess 1: 8). How do you propose to obey FACTS? One doesn't obey a fact by BELIEVING it - you can only obey a likeness of it. So I'll drop the question: how do you obey the gospel? Doubtless you must, so HOW do you do it?
@lllannallll the only way to obey the gospel is to believe it (Rom 1:16). As far as anything you do, if it be water baptism, works, charity, or whatever, you have nothing to boast about before God (Rom 4:2). As a matter of fact, if you try to get into heaven by anything that you have done, you will be cast into hell (Matt 7:21-23). Jesus says to enter the kingdom of heaven you must do the will of the Father (Matt 7:21). The will of the Father for eternal life is to believe in Jesus (John 6:40-47
@javypez 'the only way to obey the gospel is to believe it (Rom 1:16)" That's not what the verse says. It says the gospel - the good news - is the POWER of god unto salvation. Not that all you can do with it is believe it! You can't obey a fact - belief isn't obedience.
@lllannallll Once a man is made BORN AGAIN by God,he believes ,b/c no man can even believe unless God has given him the Holy Spirit first.1 Cor 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.A baby cries only after it's birth a man will only cry out to God after his NEW BIRTH.
@CBALLEN Romans 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
So when we preach repent and believe in the Gospel only those who God makes born again will repent and believe,in fact,they're the only ones made able John 6:44
@lllannallll If one says I was Baptized for remissions of sins it's like saying I took an aspirin for my headache,you don't take an aspirin to receive a headache and you don't get Baptized for salvation,but because of salvation.
@CBALLEN "If one says I was Baptized for remissions of sins it's like saying I took an aspirin for my headache" It might be if you repented for the same reason. That's why I quoted the ASV: "unto the remission of sins." I bet you don't take ur lil aspirin "unto" a headache. "Repent ye and be baptized every one of you unto the remission of sins."
@javypez "Anyone who departs from the faith was never true (1 jOhn 2:19)" Then the fellas contemplated in Heb 6 (as well as other examples elsewhere) are simply non-existent? Then why the warning? By the way, I Jn 2 doesn't teach nor imply that a saved believer cannot simply cease to believe by choice.
@javypez I read Gal 4:6 which didn't seem relevant to the topic at hand. I compared Gal 3:28 with 1 Corinth 12:13 but neither scripture confirms a baptism of the Spirit alone. The verses prior to verse 13 speak about how in the Spirit, we are all one who various gifts working together. Verse 13 says that by one Spirit, Christians were water-baptized into one body (of believers in Christ). The gifts Paul speaks about were all done physically but by the Spirit.
SnuggleShakes, check out Mark 16:16: 'Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.' It's a pretty straight forward command. This scripture pretty much says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved. Those who don't believe, won't be baptized (of course) and will be condemned.
I'm not sure why baptism would have to be mentioned in 1 Cor. 15. it doesn't even mention faith.
If baptism is necessary then there should be a scripture saying " ..and he who is not baptised will be condemned".
In 1. Cor. 15:1-4 - Baptism is not mentioned
Baptism is nothing bad, it is a ceremony from human to a human, baptism itself does not save. New Testament is a covenant of Grace - which is unmerited, unconditional salvation. Once you say that baptism is a must,you put a condition to it
(1 Peter 3:18-21)"... when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, (not as a removal of dirt from the body) but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.
Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
The Bible says :"Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38)
"Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.'
Time 4:20- The disconnect of baptism to forgiveness on grammar isn't warranted. As Carrol Osborne points out, "sentence in Ignatius, Magnesians 6:2, has striking affinity with the sentence in Acts 2:38, "Be then all in conformity with God (imperative participle), respect one another (second person plural imperative), and let no man regard (third person singular imperative) his neighbor according to the flesh, but in everything love (second person plural imperative) one another in Jesus Christ!"
Acts 2:38 cont'ed - To the idea that Peter was not giving a formula 4 salvation, true. He was enumerating the mission elements. They asked, "what shall we do?" This is a response to "This Jesus you have crucified God has made Lord & Christ." Lack of responsive belief [faith] is not the issue. The question is the response and the believe is shown by the question. Faith is undeniable. Peter, if he didn't mention it, didn't have to. This doesn't change the meaning of the passage from 2:38ff. 4/4
@Sirduke62 Just prior to the "hit by bus", he quotes John 1: 12 to DESCRIBE that person. Well, John 1: 12 states that a person who has received Him has the RIGHT, as determined by LIBERTY of ACTION, to "become" a child of God. Kinda strange to quote that verse, then follow with a "hit by a bus" routine. Just prior to being "hit by the bus", a fella had the right to become a child of God, but when the bus popped him, he apparently WAS a child of God.
Your "right to become" is at the very center of the idea that baptism is the divinely appointed time, for the promises of Acts 2:38 to be conferred. It is the idea behind Peters words in Acts 10 regarding the jailers right to be baptized and have the remission of sins and the "gift" of the Spirit, not just the supernatural and temporary power manifest at that moment. "Is Saul a prophet?" or "it is better that one man die." The authors suggest, neither man is saved, regardless of the Spirit.
@Sirduke62 Another thing about these "contingencies": perhaps there's a reason that you, me or "carmvideos" are not the final judge. Maybe we do not know all of the FACTORS that enter into "judgement." Carm bases him belief on "desert islands" and "buswrecks." And you are correct: the querists in Acts 2: 37 were BELIEVERS. If not, then what does "pricked in their hearts" mean? And why cry out anything? Why not jeer, argue, or just walk away?
Peter validates the question, by answering it with a sensible, and comprehensible, and actionable answer. Why shouldn't the answer have been, "if you believe, you have received . . . " [the promises delineated]? You can be in possession of the means to salvation without employing those means to the end of salvation. A man could starve in front of a can of beans and a can opener. Opening the can is not a sensible use of the notion of "earn," and neither is the entirely passive action of baptism.
Acts 2:38 - The Greek grammatical argument is well understood and rejected. "Every one of you" makes "be baptized" effectively plural. Examples of identical Greek construction, must be specifically ignored to sustain this argument. Ignoring that evidence is unsustainable in view of the scholarship. If the lost were saved before baptism on Pentecost it must have been before v 41. Peter stipulates they were lost in v 40. So they were not saved before baptism that day, as Luke records it. 3/4
John 3:5 - The idea that it applies to the baptism of repentance ignores the fact that it could be prophetic of Pentecost and following. It ignores the fact that in v 22, immediately following the dialogue, Jesus disciples apparently baptize people into the teaching that Jesus is ushering in the kingdom of God. Both of these are more likely contexts for v 5 than John's baptism. Jesus makes the subject of the dialogue salvation. It is unlikely he is looking back. Other readings seem doubtful. 2/4
The problem with this "hit by the bus" illustration is that it could b modified 2 eliminate, believe, the Gospel, faith, confession, repentance or anything. We're not at liberty to reject 1 biblical answer by raising an alternative question, which is the case here. If we say, God credits the intent, then we are presented a false choice, again a logical fallacy. The bible doesn't address this but if baptism is prevented by impossibility in the face of intent I expect God credits the intent. 1/4
Paul (saul) was a servant of God, Correct? He was faithful to the call given by the Lord, Right? Paul was instructed by Ananias from God , Correct. God through Ananias instructed God's way for salvation to Paul, Instruction from God, Correct. Acts 22; 16, (I quote), and now why are you waiting? (speaking to unsaved Paul) arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, the method (baptism) and the effect, (removal of sins), (for salvation). 1 Peter 3 20-21 Baptism now saves us .
A person would have to work very hard to misunderstand the scripture. A person is reborn spiritually when they obey from their heart that form of doctrine delivered to them. Rom. 6:17 The faith that saves is the faith that obeys. If baptism is not necessary for salvation, then they sure wasted a lot of time in the book of Acts. Every act of conversion in Acts mentions baptism.
Mark l6:9-20 is not found in the Sinaitic or Vatican.Two most ancient manuscripts.Thru time just like all things people add and omit , however it is up to the believer what he takes with him while the Holy Spirit moves inside him.This is what Faith is.This is why we have different denominations.To say he is preaching a false doctrine is your opinion.What I suggest you do more research on the canons.
This man is preaching a false doctrine. He will tell you Mark 16:16 is not in the Bible. He says it was put there by someone else. Who Matt? Who put it there. This is a foolish man
Peter asked baptism almost exclusively of Jews only. Few Gentiles were called to baptism.Because the covenant was to the Jew and Gentiles believing because of them.In the kingdom the one thousand year reign of Christ on earth some laws will be restored that are suspended now.Like the beatitudes which moral virtues are not for the Church, but for the kingdom.Baptism is a kingdom expression of faith almost exclusively to the Jew.In fact during the kingdom some sacrifices will be restored
@polopowers1 The kingdom is here now. Jesus said, "Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power" (Mk 9:1). Either Jesus lied, or was mistaken, or the kingdom came during the lifetime of those he spoke to. Which is it? If he lied or was mistaken, then he was not deity. The Apostle Paul said that he had already been translated into the Kingdom (Col.1:13). The kingdom is already here.
@exdesertrat When Jesus when talking was talking present kingdom to the Jew exclusively.He was not preaching Church virtue,doctrine.The kingdom was present because the King was present.But when the Church began the kingdom was suspended because the Church does not live,. under any law.The kingdom of heaven will come down,but is not the heavenly calling of saints but Jewish believers who will live under new law.The thousand year reign is not the permanent residence of the Church
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1 Thessalonians 1:4
4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,
WHO CHOSE WHO?
II Thessalonians 2:13-14
13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
WHO CHOSE WHO TO BE SAVED?
CBALLEN 2 months ago
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javypez 2 months ago
@javypez gn ... sleep on it
lllannallll 2 months ago
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CBALLEN 2 months ago
Acts 10:46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
Acts 10:47 "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."
CBALLEN 2 months ago
Paul tells the Christians in Galatians 3:27 that as many who have been baptized in Christ have put on Christ. Baptism is a condition but so is faith. If you consider baptism to be a work, then consider what James wrote in his letter (2:26) which says 'For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead'. James impressed on the readers to show their faith by their works. If baptism would be considered a work, then it's a work that seals our salvation.
JaeZ76 5 months ago
@JaeZ76 Baptism is a work of righteousness. Compare Titus 3:5 with Matt 3:15. James is talking about the outward evidence of a saved life. Compare Romans 4:5 with 1 John 2:19 and 1 John 5:4-5. Also see Matt 13:23
javypez 3 months ago
@javypez In Titus 3:5, Paul separates the washing of regeneration from the renewal of the Holy Spirit. Water baptism is the 'washing of regeneration' in this context. The renewal of the Holy Spirit is received. This is proven with Philip and the Eunuch in Acts 9:26 when the Eunuch was baptized in water after hearing the gospel from Philip and again in Acts 10:44-48 when Peter offered up water baptism for believers after the Holy Spirit was received.
JaeZ76 3 months ago
@JaeZ76 When God asks you "why sould I let you in my kingdom", what willyou say?
javypez 3 months ago
@javypez Why do you ask? This seems to be a question off-topic unless I am missing the point. I'm not sure how I will be made to answer for my life on the Day of Judgement except that I know I will confess Him as Lord as I do in this life, give an open account for the things done (and not done) according to His will and accept that I will either live or die a second death which is what really matters. What do you think you will say?
JaeZ76 3 months ago
@JaeZ76 I will say to God "I believe that Jesus payed for me on the cross
javypez 3 months ago
@javypez I think we're digressing on the topic. I too know Jesus paid for my life on the cross but what does that have to do with whether water baptism is required? Let me ask: What was the purpose for the water baptism of the Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts 8 and Cornelius' in Acts 10? Both scriptures clearly state water baptism so what was the purpose and why is it not relevant today?
JaeZ76 3 months ago
@JaeZ76 Eph 1:13 states that when one believes on Christ He is sealed with the Holy Spirit, which means he is saved. Romans 8:11 says "if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."
In Acts 8:37 the Eunuch believed on the Lord Jesus before He was water baptized. Cornelius and his house were baptized in the Holy Spirit before water baptism as were the Jews. Even Paul was saved before baptism. He confessed Jesus as Lord and believed He was risen from the dead. Compare Acts 22:10
javypez 3 months ago
@javypez "Eph 1:13 states that when one believes on Christ He is sealed" Ok, "sealed". Do you think that the Greek word translated "sealed" means "tightly fastened so it can't be opened" or what? And to what kind of believer is Eph 1: 13 referring?
lllannallll 2 months ago
@JaeZ76 If you BELIEVE the gospel which is that Christ died on the cross for you, because you are a depraved sinner and cannot save yourself, and that He was buried and that God raised Him from the dead the third day, you have eternal life. If you bellieve in the Lord Jesus you are a new creation and WILL overcome the world. If you trust in your own righteousness in the great day, He will say "depart from Me, I never knew you."
javypez 3 months ago
@javypez Also, the people of Matt 7:21-23 are cast in the lake of fire becuase they were relying on their works, and works which Christ also commanded to do. He says "I never knew you". Never means they were never saved, not that they were saved at one point and then lost it and "earned" it back. They did not do the will of God. Jesus says in John 6:40 "this is the will of Him...everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlastin life". Trust in Christ alone and you are saved.
javypez 3 months ago
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javypez 3 months ago
@javypez "If you trust in your own righteousness in the great day, He will say "depart from Me, I never knew you." He might say "Depart from me, I know ye not" which could mean "I once knew you, but do not now."
lllannallll 2 months ago
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javypez 3 months ago
@JaeZ76 In Titus 3:5 the Holy Spirit is also the agent of the "washing of regeneration". Compare 1 Corinthians 6:11 which states that we are washed, sanctified, justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and BY THE SPIRIT OF OUR GOD.
javypez 3 months ago
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@javypez "In Titus 3:5 the Holy Spirit is also the agent of the "washing of regeneration". That's an assertion - I'll deny it. The Holy Spirit is not even MENTIONED.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@javypez I agree that we will be saved by His mercy and not by our works BUT we need to define 'works'. James also wrote in James 2:14-26 that works without faith is dead. In that letter, he explains that our faith should produce works. Seems contradictory? The works he wrote of are deeds for others (ex: clothing/feeding a brother/sister). If we apply that to Titus 3:5, then true, we are not saved by the good deeds we do for others but water baptism isn't something we do for others.
JaeZ76 3 months ago
@JaeZ76 Compare the works of James 2:14 with 2:8-13. It is the same.
javypez 3 months ago
@javypez Further more, James says Abraham was justified by doing something. Paul says he was justified before doing anything at all, Romans 4:1-11
javypez 3 months ago
@javypez "Baptism is a work of righteousness." Then so is "repentance" and so is "confessing belief in Christ", and I, for one, am surprised that you'd advocate salvation without repentance simply because it is some you MUST do (or evidently must not really do). If you DO it, it's a work of some kind - either mental or physical or both. Saved without repentance - without that change in will or willpower produced by Godly sorrow? C'mon now.
lllannallll 2 months ago
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javypez 2 months ago
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javypez 2 months ago
@lllannallll Jesus is the Justifier through faith (Rom 3:21-5:11). Repentance means only a change of mind (Strong's Concordance #G3340). You cannot believe in Christ without a change of mind and faith in Christ certainly implies that a change of mind has been made. Repentance always comes before faith (Mat 21:32, Mark 1:15, Act 20:21). Repentance is granted by God (2Tim. 2:25) and faith is the work of God (John 6:29). Those who believe in Christ are those who do not work (Rom 4:5). Its All God
javypez 2 months ago
@javypez "You cannot believe in Christ without a change of mind and faith in Christ" Huh? Godly sorrow precedes repentance, and your position is that one repents in order to believe in God? That makes no sense at all. And in Acts 2, the people were told to BELIEVE ... to TRUST .. to KNOW (Let all the house of Israel know ...). Well, they were cut to the heart - why? They believed in the death and resurrection of Jesus and realized what they'd done. They were THEN told to repent.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll Nobody in Acts 2 was saved except those who received Peter's words (Acts 2:41). When they received Peters words they recieved that Jesus is Christ and Lord (verse 36), and by receiving this they became children of God (John 1:12). The only ones who repented (verse 38) were the ones who received his word (verse 41). And THEN they were baptized. "Now all who BELIEVED were together" (verse 44).
javypez 2 months ago
@javypez Look what you "went and did." You: "When they received Peters words they recieved that Jesus is Christ and Lord (verse 36), and by receiving this they became children of God (John 1:12) Sir, John 1: 12 says believer have .. what? the RIGHT, the liberty of choice and action .. to what? to BECOME children. You imply they ALREADY ARE, and thus contradict the very verse you cite. Then lo and behold, you put "repentance" after "believing." That's some progress, anyway.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@javypez "Nobody in Acts 2 was saved except those who received Peter's words (Acts 2:41)." Right, and not only that, nobody in Acts 2 was saved unless they DID what Peter COMMANDED. You seem to me to have hearing, believing, repenting, baptism, and forgiveness of sins all twisted around in Acts 2. Why don't you NUMBER them for me so it'll be plain and simple?
lllannallll 2 months ago
@javypez "faith is the work of God (John 6:29)." Umm... "What shall WE DO" - what can WE DO - "that we might work the works of God." Your position is ... "not a thing .. you can't do a thing .. be passive, and perchance God might act upon you in some mysterious manner." THIS is the work of God...." This is what you can do - I'm answering you ... "that ye believe on Him who He hath sent." Did Jesus answer their query? You know what they were asking ... were they answered?
lllannallll 2 months ago
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@lllannallll However you look at it, those who believe are those who do not work (Rom 4:5).
javypez 2 months ago
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@javypez "Those who believe in Christ are those who do not work (Rom 4:5)" Amazing. That's what you get out of that? Those who believe in Christ, trust in Christ, have confidence in Christ .... are very ones that do not work? Well, who did the believing? Do you attempt to distinguish a mental work from a physical one for some vague reason?
lllannallll 2 months ago
@javypez "Repentance always comes before faith " Always? Ever? Question: at the time old Simon was told to repent, was he a believer or not? To ask is to answer, really, and about the only dodge I've ever heard on that is: a saved man somehow ... God only knows HOW ... repents DIFFERENTLY from an unsaved man. Not an ounce of truth in it, but desperate times call for desperate measures, I guess. Totally illogical - almost incoherent. Anyway, what's your take on it?
lllannallll 2 months ago
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javypez 2 months ago
@lllannallll Obvously anyone can change their mind about things after salvation. After Christ saved me I came under conviction about smoking and I quit. I didnt quit to be saved or to remain saved, I quit because I love the Lord and am saved. Repent in the context of the three verses I supplied is this: "Change your mind and agree that you are a sinner under the wrath of God and need Jesus as your savior."
Anyone who does not remain in the faith was never a true believer (1 John 2:19, 5:4-5)
javypez 2 months ago
@javypez "Obvously anyone can change their mind about things after salvation." Certainly so, but remember, according to your position, you are implicitly denying that anyone repents of his/her sins PRIOR TO salvation. The only repentance you'll accept as "the real thing" prior to salvation is some kinda change of mind toward God and Jesus, right? Other than that, repentance from sins would be totally unnecessary. That's why (one reason) that I said, "It's illogical."
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll Correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like you have no assurance of salvation.
javypez 2 months ago
@javypez "Correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like you have no assurance of salvation." Certainly. Every person who has trusted in Jesus Christ, repented of his sins, confessed his faith and been immersed into Christ is THEN and THERE forgiven of his past sins, is he not? From there, I have to maintain my faith, remain a believer, "walk in the light", etc. I have the promise of eternal life. So yes, you're wrong on that.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll So what you are saying is that believeing in Christ's blood sacrifice for sins is not enough?
javypez 2 months ago
@javypez Oh, go ahead and place the events of Acts 2 in order. It's easy and logical. You have hearing, believing, repenting, being baptized, and forgiveness of sins. Number them in order for me, and we'll both avoid alot of questions, i think.
lllannallll 2 months ago
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javypez 2 months ago
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@lllannallll repent,believe and be baptized (Mark 1:15 , Acts 2:41). Now please answer my question.
javypez 2 months ago
@javypez What you are doing, possibly without realizing it, is putting forth the position that an unsaved person somehow repents DIFFERENTLY from a saved person, or at least is penitent about different things. I maintain that your position does not allow for repentance for ANY SIN, save possibly unbelief, prior to salvation - and maintaining your position, you will totally contradict the events of Acts 2.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll Change of mind is only a change of mind.
javypez 2 months ago
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@javypez "Change of mind is only a change of mind." Ummm ... ok. You still deny that repentance from sin is even necessary to salvation, I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@javypez "Anyone who does not remain in the faith was never a true believer (1 John 2:19, 5:4-5)" Different subject, but, of course, you are also maintaining that a believer can not POSSIBLY cease to believe. In other words, a saved person - once saved - cannot possibly be deceived by, say, the theory of the big bang/evolution. Or false religions such as Judaism. Heb 6 teaches otherwise.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll Heb 6:4-6 teaches that if a person can fall away, they can never be saved again (Heb 6:6). If you lose your salvation, that's your one and only chance. I am not of those who fall away but of those who believe to the saving of the soul (Heb 10:39)
javypez 2 months ago
@javypez "Heb 6:4-6 teaches that if a person can fall away, they can never be saved again (Heb 6:6)." No, it doesn't .... the "if" isn't even IN the Greek, although the subjunctive mode is. A better translation is "having fallen away", as Dr. Williams, a Baptist, translates it. I'm glad to hear that YOU are not of those who WILL fall away - just so you admit that the possibility is there. Not likelihood. Possibility. So what if they can't be saved again? They still were saved, then lost.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll Anyone who departs from the faith was never true (1 jOhn 2:19)
javypez 2 months ago
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@javypez "So what you are saying is that believeing in Christ's blood ... " Oh, c'mon. What I'm SAYING is that you can easily read Acts 2 and VERY easily place the order of events in the proper order for all time, but so far, you haven't tried it. Five little things - all you need to do is number then in logical chronological order. Do that, please.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@javypez I still don't see those 5 little things: hearing, believing, repenting, being baptized, and forgiveness of sins, each listed, with a number in front of them. Can you do that, using Acts 2 as a guide?
lllannallll 2 months ago
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javypez 2 months ago
@lllannallll They heard the word of God (2:14-40). Verse 41 shows they received the word they heard, which means they repented(changed their minds) and believed. Verse 44 shows that they believed. Having believed implies repentance (change of mind). When one believes they receive the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13) and forgiveness of sins (Acts 10:43). So they HEARD, REPENTED, BELIEVED, FORGIVENESS, BAPTIZED. Now answer my question please, is faith in Christ's blood enough to atone for sin?
javypez 2 months ago
@javypez "Now answer my question please, is faith in Christ's blood enough to atone for sin?" Do you mean "faith only, before and without anything else"? If so, no - I do not believe one receives remission of sins at the point of a dead faith, but rather a living, active faith working through love. Now, I'll follow up.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@javypez "So they HEARD, REPENTED, BELIEVED, FORGIVENESS, BAPTIZED." Alright, I don't see how you came up with that, but ok. At the point of Acts 2: 37, after the gospel had been preached, when they asked, "What shall we do?", were these people BELIEVERS at this POINT? That's #1.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll no
javypez 2 months ago
@javypez #2: "When one believes they receive the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13)" Acts 2: 38: does reception of the gift of the Holy Spirit PRECEDE or FOLLOW repentance and water baptism? Does "unto the remission of sins" (ASV) PRECEDE or FOLLOW water baptism?
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll Look, you have to break down Acts 2:38 for numerous reasons. If you baptize some one "in the name of Jesus Christ", you will not be "baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" as Jesus commanded in Matt 28. By Peter saying "in the name of Jesus Christ" he simply means "by the authority of Jesus Christ". This can clearly be seen by comparing Acts 3:6, 4:7, 4:18, 5:28, 5:40, 9:27-29, 16:18. So for the remission of sins, how do you reconcile Acts 2:38 with Acts 10:43?
javypez 2 months ago
@javypez Me: "At the point of Acts 2: 37, after the gospel had been preached, when they asked, "What shall we do?", were these people BELIEVERS at this POINT?" You: "No" Me: You mean to tell me they heard an entire gospel sermon, concluding with "Let all the house of Israel KNOW that this same Jesus is both Lord and Christ" ... they were "pricked" or "cut" to the heart by these undeniable truths.... they cried out.... yet...umm....didn't believe? You think that's a logical conclusion?
lllannallll 2 months ago
@javypez "By Peter saying "in the name of Jesus Christ" he simply means "by the authority of Jesus Christ". Huh? I know that "in the name of ..." means "by the authority of ... " So what? I asked you if "unto the remission of sins" and "reception of the gift of the Spirit" PRECEDED or FOLLOWS water baptism? And i break down Act 2 because it is the FIRST sermon in which the gospel is proclaimed as an accomplished fact, and it is very logical and sequential.
lllannallll 2 months ago
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javypez 2 months ago
@lllannallll Is faith in the blood of Christ enough for sin atonement? If you do not answer with a simple yes or no, I will take as you dodging the question and I will stop conversing with you. Please answer.
javypez 2 months ago
@javypez "Is faith in the blood of Christ enough for sin atonement? If you do not answer with a simple yes or no" I answered that: it is "no" if, by "faith", you mean a dead faith, faith only, or the equivalent. And since that IS what you mean, I will say that "faith alone"...."faith only"...."dead faith"...whatever phrase you desire that means faith without anything else is NOT sufficient. One must repent of his sins (which you deny), confess Christ (you deny that, too), and be baptized.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll I sent you a PM my friend.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@lllannallll So what have you done that is going to get you into heaven? When was your salvation sealed? If God were to say to you "why should I let you in my kingdom", what would you say to Him?
javypez 2 months ago
@javypez "I asked you if "unto the remission of sins" and "reception of the gift of the Spirit" PRECEDED or FOLLOWS water baptism?" <-- don't forget that ... by my count, it's your turn to answer. You've already said that "Repent ye and be baptized ... unto the remission..." means (1) repent, (2) believe, (3) remission, and (4) be baptized ... which amazes me. I'd like to see if you flip-flop it again and stick "the gift of the Spirit" BETWEEN "repent" and "be baptized." I wouldnt doubt it.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll As soon as I trusted Christ for the blood atonement for my sin, I was baptized in the Holy Spirit and forever saved. Ive done answered your salvation formula twice at least, dont ask me again. Im gonna send to your inbox how I present the gospel, may be you could do the same.
javypez 2 months ago
@javypez "As soon as I trusted Christ for the blood atonement for my sin, I was baptized in the Holy Spirit" Well, then it seems #1 that you place reception of the gift of the Spirit prior to baptism, yet Acts 2: 38 plainly after it, and furthermore #2 you claim the baptism of the Spirit, yet you practice water baptism on top of it, so that's two baptisms, whereas, by AD 63, in Eph 4: 4-6, Paul said there was one. Two inexplicable contradictions.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll The one baptism of Eph 4 is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. There will only be one baptism in the Holy Spirit because you can only be saved once (Heb 10:10).
javypez 2 months ago
@javypez "The one baptism of Eph 4 is the baptism of the Holy Spirit." Then I'd suggest you drop water baptism entirely, if that's the case. The trouble is: you aren't, nor have you ever been, "baptized in the Holy Spirit." Nor have I. There is only one clearcut case of Holy Spirit baptism (the apostles), and possibly Cornelius in Acts 10. Baptism is TOTAL IMMERSION.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll I will not drop water baptism. It is commanded by the Lord. If I were to drop His commandments I would also drop the Ten. I cannot be save by the Ten C. but I will still honor, teach, and live by it because Jesus said so ( Matt 5:19).
javypez 2 months ago
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@javypez "I cannot be save by the Ten C. but I will still honor, teach, and live by it because Jesus said so " You don't keep the 4th one.
lllannallll 2 months ago
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@javypez 'There will only be one baptism in the Holy Spirit because you can only be saved once (Heb 10:10)." Sounds good, but the verse says "one baptism" ... not "one baptism of the Holy Spirit." I do not claim to now have, or have ever had, Holy Spirit baptism - but if I did, I guess that'd be my "one baptism" - and I wouldn't be going into the water. You claim Holy Spirit baptism PLUS you practice water baptism, yet there's ONE baptism?
lllannallll 2 months ago
@javypez "Im gonna send to your inbox how I present the gospel, may be you could do the same." I don't have to IM: it's simple: read Acts 2. The order is: (1) hear the gospel, (2) be cut or pricked to the heart - believe, (3) repent of your sins, (4) be immersed into Christ, (5) receive the remission of sins, and (6) simultaneous with #5, receive the gift of the Spirit. That's extremely defensible, considering the blueprint in Acts 2: 4-47.
lllannallll 2 months ago
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@lllannallll The blue print for salvation is the Gospel. The Gospel is: Christ died for our sins, He was buried, He rose from the dead the third day (1 Cor. 15:1-4). I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES (Romans 1:16). Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the Gospel (1 Cor. 1:17). The message of the cross is foolish to those who perish, but to us who are saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor 1:18).
javypez 2 months ago
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@lllannallll It pleased God through the meassage preached to save those who BELIEVE (1 Cor. 1:21). He who believes is not condemned (John 3:18). If anyone preaches any other gospel let him be accursed ( Gal 1:9). Those who have faith in Christ have the righteousness of God (Rom. 3:21-28, 2 Cor 5:21, Philip. 3:9). Those who BELIEVE WILL bear fruit (Mat 13:23), continue in the faith (1 John 2:19) and overcome (1 John 5:4-5). Not to be saved, but because saved (John 10:27)
javypez 2 months ago
@javypez Here's your position, as best I can tell, and no wonder you don't want it mentioned again: (1) hear the gospel, (2) repent, (3) be pricked in your heart - believe, (4) forgiveness of sins, (5) maybe along with 4, get baptized in the Spirit, and only THEN (5) water baptism. Indefensible. "Repent ye and be baptized every one of you .... unto the remission of your sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." There's your blueprint for conversions from Acts 2 forward.
lllannallll 2 months ago
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javypez 2 months ago
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javypez 2 months ago
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javypez 2 months ago
@javypez Well, all that's well and good, but, honestly, your order of events in Acts to is indefensible - it looks more like you made up your own order simply to line it up with a Baptist Manual instead of logic and common sense. Do you really think those folks received the gift of the Spirit BEFORE baptism when the passage states the opposite? Do you think "unto the remission of sins" somehow follows "ye repent", yet occurs before "be baptized"?
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll Actually, since the order of events in Acts 2 clearly contradict Acts 10:43-48 and the rest of the Bible, I just tried to see how I, through prayer, could reconcile these passages. Only the blood of Christ can wash away sins, water baptism, according to 1 Peter 3:21 is "not the removal of the filth of the flesh". The word "filth" being defined as "dirt i.e. moral depravity" (Strong's #G4509). And the word "flesh" being defined as "flesh, or human nature, passions" (Stong's #G4561).
javypez 2 months ago
@lllannallll Eph 1:13 says "having believed you were sealed with the Holy Spirit". In Acts chp 11 and 15 Peter retails the acount of Cornelius and his house that they received the Spirit through faith just as they did.
javypez 2 months ago
@javypez "Peter retails the acount of Cornelius and his house that they received the Spirit through faith just as they did." Peter didn't always relay the account in order, but he did once and he specified it: Acts 11: 4. And the Spirit descended upon Cornelius as Peter began to speak - why? In all honestly, did the Spirit descend to prove that Cornelius was saved after Peter had only spoken a few words? I tend to doubt that, and it plainly contradicts the gospel order in EVERY other case.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll Yes, I would also like to know why Peter said "I said began to speak". I have heard that it has to do with the Greek, I dont know. However he said In Acts 11:17 "God gave them the same gift as he gave us when we believed on the Lord". And this is in reference to verse 16, the baptism in the Spirit. In Acts 15:9 he retells the account and says God "purfied their hearts by faith". Again in refernce to the Spirit (verse 8). The receive the Spirit before the water (Acts 10:47).
javypez 2 months ago
@javypez "Yes, I would also like to know why Peter said "I said began to speak"." LOL Because he ON TRIAL, and he figured he better do it IN ORDER, and not mess up.
lllannallll 2 months ago
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javypez 2 months ago
@javypez "Either way you go, water was not necessary for Corneilus" Nor was faith, evidently.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll NO, he had faith. compare Acts 11:16-17 and Acts 15:8-9
javypez 2 months ago
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@javypez "NO, he had faith. compare Acts 11:16-17" Huh? Acts 11: 16-17 doesn't mention the faith of Cornelius at all.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll Either way you go, water was not necessary for Cornelius to receive the Spirit.
javypez 2 months ago
@javypez "Either way you go, water was not necessary for Cornelius to receive the Spirit." Nor was faith. I'll stand by the idea that Cornelius received the Spirit BEFORE Peter said much of anything, certainly just as he began to speak. And I'll stand by the idea that reception of the Spirit does not necessarily indicate salvation anyway.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll Cornelius had the Holy Spirit before the water. Those who have the Spirit are God's (Gal 4:6). If anyone does not have the Spirit, he is not God's (rom 8:9).
javypez 2 months ago
@javypez "Those who have the Spirit are God's (Gal 4:6)." There's the mistake. The Spirit of God may work for His purpose through unsaved people and things. The Spirit of God came upon wicked King Saul, who later committed suicide - the Spirit also DEPARTED from him, incidentally - and hardly anyone has the effrontery to claim Saul was saved.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll Cornelius' heart was purified by the Holy Spirit through faith Acts 15:8-9. He received the Holy spirit when he believed on the Lord Acts 11:16-18
javypez 2 months ago
@javypez "He received the Holy spirit when he believed on the Lord Acts 11:16-18" I'll send you $50 if you can find Cornelius believing ANYTHING in Acts 11: 16-17. It's not even THERE in connection with reception of the Holy Spirit. In fact, it's not there, period. The passage simply says God gave THEM (the Gentiles) the like gift as he had given us (the apostles) who had believed on Jesus. That's all.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@javypez Do you see that your position FORCES you to say ... to assume ... #1 that Cornelius suddenly became a believer just as Peter began to speak, yet #2 even when Peter had FINISHED his sermon in Acts 2, you are saying the people did NOT believe? And you have to somehow say that the conversion examples of Acts 2 and Acts 10 simply are CONTRADICTORY? You will not, and cannot, attempt to merge them into one plan.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@javypez By the way, the reference for the Spirit descending upon Saul is I Sam 10: 10. I forgot to add that.
lllannallll 2 months ago
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@javypez "However he said In Acts 11:17 "God gave them the same gift as he gave us when we believed on the Lord". And this is in reference to verse 16, the baptism in the Spirit." That's true. I make no judgement as to whether Cornelius actually received a spiritual gift or Holy Spirit baptism. Most say Holy Spirit baptism, and that's fine with me. No matter which one, it wasn't given to prove he was saved.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@javypez "The receive the Spirit before the water (Acts 10:47)." So? I've asked: do you think that the PURPOSE of the Spirit coming upon Cornelius was to somehow show that he was saved?
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll I think that the speaking in tounges was to show that he was saved. The fact is, he had the Spirit before the water. Now that contradicts your interpretation of Acts 2:38.
javypez 2 months ago
@javypez "I think that the speaking in tounges was to show that he was saved. " Then why send for Peter in the first place? Why was he needed?
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll Peter was chosen for God's own purpose. God couldve chose anyone, any Jew. That is for God's own pleasure. I say praise God for whatever reason He chose Peter.
javypez 2 months ago
@javypez And I really must say that Peter was not "needed"
javypez 2 months ago
@javypez .... and the crux of the matter is this: the Spirit descended upon someone, whether Saul, Peter, Balaam's ass, Paul, Samson, or Cornelius is NOT for the purpose of proving salvation. There's the problem. You think King Saul was saved because the Spirit came upon him. Well, I must say: he's a strange example of a saved person, especially since the Spirit departed from him. I repeat: miraculous acts of the Spirit are NOT to prove salvation.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@javypez 1 Sam 10: 10 "... and the Spirit of God came upon him (Saul)" Fine. According to Baptist doctrine, this MUST indicate Saul's salvation. Well, I'd reconsider that. Was Saul a saved man? If so, it's mighty strange because the Spirit departed from him, he became an enemy of God, and committed suicide. I'd like to hear your response to that.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@javypez "I say praise God for whatever reason He chose Peter." I say, if you are correct, why send ANYBODY? What purpose did Peter or anyone else SERVE, according to you? NONE, as best I can tell. Cornelius could have "gotten the Spirit" from hearing ANYONE "begin to speak" - or no one. Why'd Cornelius need anyone, including Peter? Certainly not to hear the gospel, for he received the Spirit BEFORE hearing it.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@javypez I'd say you're done with Acts 2, and we won't hear another word about it - the point(s) have been made, and you are intelligent enough to see that no man living can reconcile the order of events in that first sermon in the name of a risen saviour with typical Baptist doctrine. The two won't mesh - and never did. Baptists have to copy and paste, and hop and skip - and I don't see how they do it and keep from laughing. Sorry, but you can see that - everyone can.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll In Acts 10, the believers receive the Holy Spirit upon faith before water baptism. Explain that.
javypez 2 months ago
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@javypez "In Acts 10, the believers receive the Holy Spirit upon faith before water baptism. Explain that." #1 is that you assume that which you must prove. You can't prove they were believers. It amazes me that your position is that Cornelius became a believer just as Peter began to speak - Peter had just started to speak, BUT the folks on Pentecost heard an entire sermon, were cut to the heart, and cried out. Yet you say that at that point, they did NOT believe.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@javypez #2 is that you assume that the reception of the Spirit by Cornelius is FOR THE PURPOSE of indicating his salvation, when it's not. It is for the purpose of demonstrating to Peter and the other old Jews that indeed the Gentiles are fit subjects for conversion. Heretofore, for about 6 or 7 years, the Jewish Christian did not even ATTEMPT to convert a Gentile, and it took a series of miracles to convince them otherwise.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll You say "copy and paste, and hop and skip". 2 Tim 2:15 says to "Study (be dilligent)...and RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of truth." Now I am not saying I divid right everytime, but if the Scripture says over and over agian that salvation is not of myself and Christ paid it all, then there has to be some "diligence" and "rightly dividing".
javypez 2 months ago
@javypez "You say "copy and paste, and hop and skip" <-- I said that solely with reference to the order of events plainly given in Acts 2, and I've never seen a Baptist yet that could place them in their obvious order without contradicting himself over and over and over. And I haven't. It's not the individual's fault - it's the theology. I couldn't do it either if I were in their shoes.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@javypez I'll touch upon your passage, "Those who BELIEVE WILL bear fruit (Mat 13:23)" You want to re-thing that one? Do you mean to say that every person who believes in Christ, eis Christ, as in Jn 3: 16 WILL, of necessity, produce fruit? I'd be mighty careful with that assertion - and that's all it is.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll Absolutely. Some 30 some 60 some 100 fold! You put a 30 degree blackbelt next to a 100 degree blackbelt, the one with the 30 degree wont have such a strong kick next to the one with a 100 degree!
javypez 2 months ago
@javypez "the one with the 30 degree wont have such a strong kick next to the one with a 100 degree!" <-- I dont know what you're saying or responding to.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll Mat 13:23
javypez 2 months ago
@javypez Need I mention that old wicked Caiaphas prophesied? The very one who condemned Christ? Certainly he wasn't saved. God even opened the mouth of Balaam's ass and caused IT to speak (Numb 22: 28). None of these indicate salvation, either of Caiaphas and certainly not of the ass.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll Now hold on, I didnt say everyone who is Christ is perfect.
javypez 2 months ago
@javypez Anyone who condemns Christ is not saved and never was ( 1 John 2:19)
javypez 2 months ago
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@javypez 'Anyone who condemns Christ is not saved and never was ( 1 John 2:19)" I didn't say he was - I said he prophesied a prophecy FROM GOD. God used him for his purpose and caused him to prophesy. Just because God used him - even to the point of causing him to prophesy - in no way indicates salvation.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@javypez Tis a new day! Don't forget your thoughts on the salvation of King Saul - when the Spirit came upon him, and God gave him a new heart. Add to that this: the Spirit departed from King Saul. Didn't think that could happen? Well, it did. Was he ever saved to start with - with the Spirit upon him and a new heart? Did he lose his salvation when the Spirit departed from him? Don't neglect that example - it's important.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@javypez "If anyone preaches any other gospel let him be accursed ( Gal 1:9)." <-- a little off the subject, but ok. Well, so? What is the gospel? The facts of the gospel are the death, burial, resurrection of Christ. You have to obey that gospel (II Thess 1: 8). How do you propose to obey FACTS? One doesn't obey a fact by BELIEVING it - you can only obey a likeness of it. So I'll drop the question: how do you obey the gospel? Doubtless you must, so HOW do you do it?
lllannallll 2 months ago
@lllannallll the only way to obey the gospel is to believe it (Rom 1:16). As far as anything you do, if it be water baptism, works, charity, or whatever, you have nothing to boast about before God (Rom 4:2). As a matter of fact, if you try to get into heaven by anything that you have done, you will be cast into hell (Matt 7:21-23). Jesus says to enter the kingdom of heaven you must do the will of the Father (Matt 7:21). The will of the Father for eternal life is to believe in Jesus (John 6:40-47
javypez 2 months ago
@javypez 'the only way to obey the gospel is to believe it (Rom 1:16)" That's not what the verse says. It says the gospel - the good news - is the POWER of god unto salvation. Not that all you can do with it is believe it! You can't obey a fact - belief isn't obedience.
lllannallll 2 months ago
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@lllannallll You said it, it "is the POWER of God". It is not the power of yourself.
javypez 2 months ago
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@lllannallll Once a man is made BORN AGAIN by God,he believes ,b/c no man can even believe unless God has given him the Holy Spirit first.1 Cor 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.A baby cries only after it's birth a man will only cry out to God after his NEW BIRTH.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN Romans 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
So when we preach repent and believe in the Gospel only those who God makes born again will repent and believe,in fact,they're the only ones made able John 6:44
See how all this fits together?
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@lllannallll If one says I was Baptized for remissions of sins it's like saying I took an aspirin for my headache,you don't take an aspirin to receive a headache and you don't get Baptized for salvation,but because of salvation.
CBALLEN 2 months ago
@CBALLEN "If one says I was Baptized for remissions of sins it's like saying I took an aspirin for my headache" It might be if you repented for the same reason. That's why I quoted the ASV: "unto the remission of sins." I bet you don't take ur lil aspirin "unto" a headache. "Repent ye and be baptized every one of you unto the remission of sins."
lllannallll 2 months ago
@CBALLEN Amen.
javypez 2 months ago
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@javypez "Anyone who departs from the faith was never true (1 jOhn 2:19)" Then the fellas contemplated in Heb 6 (as well as other examples elsewhere) are simply non-existent? Then why the warning? By the way, I Jn 2 doesn't teach nor imply that a saved believer cannot simply cease to believe by choice.
lllannallll 2 months ago
@JaeZ76 Gal 3:27 is speaking of Holy Spirit baptism. Consider Gal 4:6 and also compare Gal 3:28 with 1 Corinthians 12:13.
javypez 3 months ago
@javypez I read Gal 4:6 which didn't seem relevant to the topic at hand. I compared Gal 3:28 with 1 Corinth 12:13 but neither scripture confirms a baptism of the Spirit alone. The verses prior to verse 13 speak about how in the Spirit, we are all one who various gifts working together. Verse 13 says that by one Spirit, Christians were water-baptized into one body (of believers in Christ). The gifts Paul speaks about were all done physically but by the Spirit.
JaeZ76 3 months ago
@JaeZ76 what happens to someone if they die before water baptism?
javypez 3 months ago
SnuggleShakes, check out Mark 16:16: 'Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.' It's a pretty straight forward command. This scripture pretty much says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved. Those who don't believe, won't be baptized (of course) and will be condemned.
I'm not sure why baptism would have to be mentioned in 1 Cor. 15. it doesn't even mention faith.
JaeZ76 5 months ago
If baptism is necessary then there should be a scripture saying " ..and he who is not baptised will be condemned".
In 1. Cor. 15:1-4 - Baptism is not mentioned
Baptism is nothing bad, it is a ceremony from human to a human, baptism itself does not save. New Testament is a covenant of Grace - which is unmerited, unconditional salvation. Once you say that baptism is a must,you put a condition to it
SnuggleShakes 8 months ago
(1 Peter 3:18-21)"... when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, (not as a removal of dirt from the body) but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.
MrGhettown 8 months ago
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This man loves controversy he is twisting the word of God for his own destruction.
(Acts 10:46):
Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
MrGhettown 8 months ago
"one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Ephesians 4:5)
MrGhettown 8 months ago
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MrGhettown 8 months ago
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MrGhettown 8 months ago
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MrGhettown 8 months ago
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The Bible says :"Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38)
(Acts 10:44)
in (John 3:5) The Lord said:
"Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.'
MrGhettown 8 months ago
Time 4:20- The disconnect of baptism to forgiveness on grammar isn't warranted. As Carrol Osborne points out, "sentence in Ignatius, Magnesians 6:2, has striking affinity with the sentence in Acts 2:38, "Be then all in conformity with God (imperative participle), respect one another (second person plural imperative), and let no man regard (third person singular imperative) his neighbor according to the flesh, but in everything love (second person plural imperative) one another in Jesus Christ!"
Sirduke62 9 months ago
Acts 2:38 cont'ed - To the idea that Peter was not giving a formula 4 salvation, true. He was enumerating the mission elements. They asked, "what shall we do?" This is a response to "This Jesus you have crucified God has made Lord & Christ." Lack of responsive belief [faith] is not the issue. The question is the response and the believe is shown by the question. Faith is undeniable. Peter, if he didn't mention it, didn't have to. This doesn't change the meaning of the passage from 2:38ff. 4/4
Sirduke62 9 months ago
@Sirduke62 Just prior to the "hit by bus", he quotes John 1: 12 to DESCRIBE that person. Well, John 1: 12 states that a person who has received Him has the RIGHT, as determined by LIBERTY of ACTION, to "become" a child of God. Kinda strange to quote that verse, then follow with a "hit by a bus" routine. Just prior to being "hit by the bus", a fella had the right to become a child of God, but when the bus popped him, he apparently WAS a child of God.
lllannallll 9 months ago
Your "right to become" is at the very center of the idea that baptism is the divinely appointed time, for the promises of Acts 2:38 to be conferred. It is the idea behind Peters words in Acts 10 regarding the jailers right to be baptized and have the remission of sins and the "gift" of the Spirit, not just the supernatural and temporary power manifest at that moment. "Is Saul a prophet?" or "it is better that one man die." The authors suggest, neither man is saved, regardless of the Spirit.
saydq 9 months ago
@Sirduke62 Another thing about these "contingencies": perhaps there's a reason that you, me or "carmvideos" are not the final judge. Maybe we do not know all of the FACTORS that enter into "judgement." Carm bases him belief on "desert islands" and "buswrecks." And you are correct: the querists in Acts 2: 37 were BELIEVERS. If not, then what does "pricked in their hearts" mean? And why cry out anything? Why not jeer, argue, or just walk away?
lllannallll 9 months ago
Peter validates the question, by answering it with a sensible, and comprehensible, and actionable answer. Why shouldn't the answer have been, "if you believe, you have received . . . " [the promises delineated]? You can be in possession of the means to salvation without employing those means to the end of salvation. A man could starve in front of a can of beans and a can opener. Opening the can is not a sensible use of the notion of "earn," and neither is the entirely passive action of baptism.
saydq 9 months ago
Acts 2:38 - The Greek grammatical argument is well understood and rejected. "Every one of you" makes "be baptized" effectively plural. Examples of identical Greek construction, must be specifically ignored to sustain this argument. Ignoring that evidence is unsustainable in view of the scholarship. If the lost were saved before baptism on Pentecost it must have been before v 41. Peter stipulates they were lost in v 40. So they were not saved before baptism that day, as Luke records it. 3/4
Sirduke62 9 months ago
John 3:5 - The idea that it applies to the baptism of repentance ignores the fact that it could be prophetic of Pentecost and following. It ignores the fact that in v 22, immediately following the dialogue, Jesus disciples apparently baptize people into the teaching that Jesus is ushering in the kingdom of God. Both of these are more likely contexts for v 5 than John's baptism. Jesus makes the subject of the dialogue salvation. It is unlikely he is looking back. Other readings seem doubtful. 2/4
Sirduke62 9 months ago
The problem with this "hit by the bus" illustration is that it could b modified 2 eliminate, believe, the Gospel, faith, confession, repentance or anything. We're not at liberty to reject 1 biblical answer by raising an alternative question, which is the case here. If we say, God credits the intent, then we are presented a false choice, again a logical fallacy. The bible doesn't address this but if baptism is prevented by impossibility in the face of intent I expect God credits the intent. 1/4
Sirduke62 9 months ago
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Paul (saul) was a servant of God, Correct? He was faithful to the call given by the Lord, Right? Paul was instructed by Ananias from God , Correct. God through Ananias instructed God's way for salvation to Paul, Instruction from God, Correct. Acts 22; 16, (I quote), and now why are you waiting? (speaking to unsaved Paul) arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, the method (baptism) and the effect, (removal of sins), (for salvation). 1 Peter 3 20-21 Baptism now saves us .
ELVISALIVE123 11 months ago
and about naoh , yea the ark didnt let them die with the sinners and guess what the water did it washed the sin off the earth .
firefighter40ish 1 year ago
carmvideos, getting hot by a car before baptisim. Man you are hypotheticly grabing for straws.
upperoom120 1 year ago
A person would have to work very hard to misunderstand the scripture. A person is reborn spiritually when they obey from their heart that form of doctrine delivered to them. Rom. 6:17 The faith that saves is the faith that obeys. If baptism is not necessary for salvation, then they sure wasted a lot of time in the book of Acts. Every act of conversion in Acts mentions baptism.
horseman528 1 year ago
Mark l6:9-20 is not found in the Sinaitic or Vatican.Two most ancient manuscripts.Thru time just like all things people add and omit , however it is up to the believer what he takes with him while the Holy Spirit moves inside him.This is what Faith is.This is why we have different denominations.To say he is preaching a false doctrine is your opinion.What I suggest you do more research on the canons.
lenankev 1 year ago
This man is preaching a false doctrine. He will tell you Mark 16:16 is not in the Bible. He says it was put there by someone else. Who Matt? Who put it there. This is a foolish man
miket1m 1 year ago
Peter asked baptism almost exclusively of Jews only. Few Gentiles were called to baptism.Because the covenant was to the Jew and Gentiles believing because of them.In the kingdom the one thousand year reign of Christ on earth some laws will be restored that are suspended now.Like the beatitudes which moral virtues are not for the Church, but for the kingdom.Baptism is a kingdom expression of faith almost exclusively to the Jew.In fact during the kingdom some sacrifices will be restored
polopowers1 1 year ago
@polopowers1 The kingdom is here now. Jesus said, "Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power" (Mk 9:1). Either Jesus lied, or was mistaken, or the kingdom came during the lifetime of those he spoke to. Which is it? If he lied or was mistaken, then he was not deity. The Apostle Paul said that he had already been translated into the Kingdom (Col.1:13). The kingdom is already here.
exdesertrat 1 year ago
@exdesertrat When Jesus when talking was talking present kingdom to the Jew exclusively.He was not preaching Church virtue,doctrine.The kingdom was present because the King was present.But when the Church began the kingdom was suspended because the Church does not live,. under any law.The kingdom of heaven will come down,but is not the heavenly calling of saints but Jewish believers who will live under new law.The thousand year reign is not the permanent residence of the Church
polopowers1 1 year ago