The Battle for Betyl: Meteorites in the Bible? part 2

[kidi1232]

@TeesByTruthSurge I'm aware of that, and that's what i was trying to say in my comment. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

[kidi1232]

@TeesByTruthSurge pt.2 then, my ancestors (israelites) came and like they "stole" the word "El", they "stole" the altar in beit el and made up a legend about this location, obviously a legend that tells about their god.

[kidi1232]

@TeesByTruthSurge hmnm, very interesting, have you considered the possibility the process was the other way around? that the people of the area (even before the israelites), just as they did with many things, took the word baetylus (which might even date back to pre-pagan beliefs) and distorted it for their own beliefs, so that baetylus (it doesn't sound like a semite word, but the root is probably similar) became beit el (the pagan god "El").

[kidi1232]

@TeesByTruthSurge i think the idea behind taking those words (like the word for electricity) was that it's better to take unused hebrew words, and redefine them, rather then inventing new words.

[kidi1232]

@TeesByTruthSurge "beth el, and it's standing stone aspect, morpherd into betl and betyl then became lingked to our idea of a standing stone", around 2:00.

I think that by "[jacob] erected a stone" it menas that jacob built an altar (back then - a stone "table")

[kidi1232]

oh and btw, I highly doubt about your bethel = standing stone theory. if there was such transformation like you described, it was not by hebrew speakers. since hebrew was "in stasis" for nearly 2000 years, it's easy to detect the connection between words and their biblical origin. there is nothing that rings a bell about "standing stone" nor the word "bethel". And I believe it would be easy to detect such connection if it existed.

[kidi1232]

Actually it's pronounced Beit El (t and not th, sounds like bait L).

it was easy for me to understand that something with the word was wrong because when hebrew transformed from a language used only in religious discussions back to a spoken language. people searched the bible for words that can describe modern things. for example electricity was translated as "hashmal" which the bible associates with light and energy.

there is no such word for meteorite, even today we say "meteorit".

[goal2004]

The thing is that the English pronunciation of the phrase "House of God" in Hebrew as presented is wrong. It should be Beit (sounds like the English word Bait) El. Hebrew has 2 different letters for the T consonant. Tet, the 9th letter, and Tav or Tuv (sometimes incorrectly called Taf or Tuf), the 22nd letter. Tav is usually written in English as TH while in fact Hebrew has nothing similar to TH.

[TruthSurge]

That's interesting. I'm not really a Hebrew scholar and can't read the stuff natively so I rely on lexicons and such. So, is there any Hebrew word that actually means "meteorite"? Or were you just trying to add to the reason why some people have misinterpreted house of god as having a connection to meteorites? thanks

[goal2004]

I'm not a Hebrew scholar, but it is (or at least was for 21 years) my primary language. As far as I know there isn't really a Hebrew word for Meteor. However, it is not impossible for it to have been considered a shard of God's house, as a possible meaning.

Also, Jacob's using the rock as a pillow does come off as somewhat bizarre, but it's not really a pillow, and more about being there for neck support (when laid over with sheets and padding). I could go into further detail if you like.

[TruthSurge]

But if you read the acct in context, there is no real indication that the stones he laid on had ANYTHING to do with the story. He named the place "beth el" or "beit el" because that is where he wrestled with god, NOT where he discovered physical chunks of god's house.

By all means, continue if you like. I just don't find the connection plausible in ref to the actual text. Did meteorites fall to earth then? Sure. What did the ancient Hebrews call them? ? I'm clueless.

[goal2004]

I didn't mean to imply that it does come from that. I was just trying to make an assumption. Either way, the religion was originally built around the denial of power of the stars. Essentially, giving them some supernatural power or meaning would be a grave sin, so I assume that the name "Beit El" was perhaps a way to define them in a mystical sense while still giving God some proper respect. That being said though, I haven't seen it used in that context ever again.

[goal2004]

Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention, the stone is mentioned specifically only because of how certain things were perceived there. Jacob either believed that stone was somewhat of an amplifier to his connection with god due to the intensity of the vision or dream that he had.

Still, that being said, I'm not 100% sure about it, but I'm nearly certain that other characters were mentioned to have put their heads on a rock for a pillow.

[TruthSurge]

Well, you gotta think using a stone for a pillow is a pretty dumb move. So that does lend a tad more to the question right there. But I see no need to connect it to meteorites but it COULD have another connection of sorts. I just can't see a clear connection to the idea of a falling star and normally, these meteorites would be small and probably not large enough to put your head like a pillow. Anyway, something to think about. Thanks for the input!

[goal2004]

Using a stone for a pillow by no means is a dumb move. Plenty of tribal people still do it. You gotta realize that the word pillow here means head support, and not something that is meant to be soft as it holds your head.

The link that I made there was purely my own observation. Honestly I don't think that stone was a meteor. I think Jacob thought it could be, due to the mystical (albeit forbidden) meaning of if it was.

[TruthSurge]

Let's see.... lay your head on the ground? or on a chunk of hard concrete? hmmmm gee. I can't decide. Let me try something else. Lay my head on a bundle of animal skins? Or.... on a hard chunk of concrete? hmmmmm tough call. :)

[goal2004]

I'm starting to doubt you've ever went out camping :)

When I was in the Israeli military and we had to go out on certain exercises I would find a nice comfortable rock, pad it a bit on the top and go to sleep.

It's not a new thing that people have an easier time falling asleep and then sleep much better on their side. The head is somewhat distant from the body, so using the rock as a platform to put some softer materials on it is not unfathomable.

[TruthSurge]

I've been camping many times but I never used a rock for my pillow. Odd how the body really isn't made to lay down on the side or the back. Side feels good except for the shoulders/head. Your shoulder joint is pushed and your head flops at a horrible angle w/o a pillow. It's one of the surest signs that we weren't designed by any omniscient being. If so, he is a horrible designer. He should have made us flat like a flounder so we don't need pillows!

[Inqoinf]

This type of research is exactly why I am not a Christian anymore. Skeptics tend to do more in depth research on a topic than a Christian and then the Christians wonder why we begin to view them as intellectually simple.

[TruthSurge]

Research is baaaaad. baaaaah bahhhhh! oh wait, I'm becoming a SHEEPLE! heheheh

Yeah, reading the Bible and questioning what it actually said cost me my faith. :( ah well. Better to cling to truth than to a fictional deity.

[TheAtheistPaladin]

Yeah, I love blue letter bible. I cann't tell you how many times I caught christians with no way out. Specially when they claimed "oh it doesn't really say that" or "out of context".

[TruthSurge]

Exactly. Ironically, the very excuse they often fling about (you're taking things out of context) actually works against them! Plus, with so many translations, it's hard to pull the old "it was mistranslated" excuse. Hundreds of brilliant scholars for 500 years ALL mistranslated it? hmmmm maybe, but you'd have to SHOW it.

[philhellenes]

It made perfect sense to me. Please accept my apologies for the original misunderstanding.

P.S. Might be an idea to link part 2 as a response to part 1, just for ease of viewing. :)

[TruthSurge]

Okay. Thanks, yeah I uploaded late last night and so I USUALLY put an actual hyperlink annotation to part 2 at the end of part 1 for even EASIER viewing. :)

But again, this was only to try and address the actual claims and not whether there is a link between beth el and betyl. I also couldn't find "baitylia" as being a Greek word but perhaps there is one close to that and that's why it'd take a while to really track that down, I think. thanks for watching!

[CousinoMacul]

Wow.  Nice resources.

[TruthSurge]

Yeah, Logos software is good too but that takes $. I'm a relative noob at any real hardcore hebrew/greek stuff. I rely on the scholars unless I have a good reason not to.

[appleguy77]

I hope you upload videos. I wish you would continue with the hebrew human, mythical messiah series.

[TruthSurge]

I will do another one of those soon. I have it basically written out. Just have ta do it.

[appleguy77]

Awesome, those are always interesting.

[TruthSurge]

Yeah, I'm still amazed by the stuff. But I think a lot of explaining must happen ref the exceptions. I'm making a list of the exceptions so I can do vids on those later.

[mbruck77]

I googled "meteorite references in bible" and it returned a page that lists:

Revelation 6:13, 8:8, 8:10, 9:1, 12:4, 18:21

Matthew 24:29

[TruthSurge]

Great. Now, have you READ those passages? Please let me know more than just posting verse references. I have a feeling you're confusing meteor, falling star and meteorite. I'll say more after you clarify. Thanks for watching!

[mbruck77]

The first link on Google quotes the relevant text snippets. I assume that falling star refers to a meteoroid, what else could it mean?

Rev 9:1 "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth" sounds like the description of a meteorite to me.

[LordSlag]

Seeing a star fall to earth would be quite a different experience than seeing an actual meteor, to say the least. Further, we've no window into the mind of the writer. However, in any case, it's going to take a lot more than some vague, ignorant references in a collection of pathetic iron age superstitions to convince me that they knew that meteors are actually rocks and dust coming from the huge void among and beyond the planets. They didn't even know the earth was round, dumbass.

[mbruck77]

Please watch philhellenes' video. The question that was relevant to his argument was only, if people at that time had identified rocks that have fallen from the sky (what we now call meteorites).

[LordSlag]

That's irrelevant simply because they hadn't identified them. They knew simply that there was a blaze from the sky on occasion and that there were rocks lying about that could be worked like metals that produced superior tools and weapons. If I had told them that these things had nothing to do with god and that they were rocks from the void of space that are billions of year old then they would have burned me at the stake for heresy. Do not type anything else until you educate yourself, moron.

[mbruck77]

So you argue that it was impossible at that time to make the connection between the bright objects falling from the sky and the iron containing rocks and that therefore Mohammed could have only known that from Allah himself?

[TruthSurge]

uh, no. 1) The verse in question doesn't contain the word "meteorite" and it also doesn't necessarily mean that Allah sent iron down from the "sky" or outer space since he also "sent down" the Quran. I suppose Allah sent down the Quran from outer space too?

It wasn't impossible, just that most writers didn't know what a meteorite was, hence the lack of the concept in the Bible.

I'm not saying NO ONE knew that rocks had iron or that rocks fell from the air but most didn't.

[TruthSurge]

As LordSlag noted, there is a difference between "falling star" and "falling rock" or meteorite.

Basically, most people in that area (Mesopotamia) believed that the stars were affixed to the dome that covered the earth and were small burning objects instead of HUGE burning suns millions of miles away in outer space. So, combine THAT with the phenomenon of meteorites and you get the belief that the stars could actually fall down onto earth. No mention of stones at all.

[TruthSurge]

Also, just think for a moment. Star. These people did not know that those tiny twinkling objects were actually the same thing as the sun! How amazing is that? Their view of the "stars" was muddled and inaccurate.  So, when they saw a meteorite streaking across the sky, they assumed it was a star falling from the dome of heaven onto earth. But they'd not equate a rock with a burning light, until prob much later. my 2 cents anyway.

[mbruck77]

If you are in a desert and a meteorite comes down reasonably close it would not be inconceivable to walk in the direction where it has fallen and find this very distinct black object in a small impact crater with molten sand around it and conclude that you found that "falling star" and upon closer inspection to find iron in it.

That their view of the Universe was utterly wrong is obvious, but is really not the question here.

[TruthSurge]

How often do you suppose a meteor would actually land within even a few hundred yards while someone was watching it burn up upon entry to the atmosphere? To help you answer this, have you ever even SEEN a live meteor zooming across the sky with your bare eyes? I'm telling you that the rarity of the event and the even more rare event of one actually landing near anyone that saw the thing burning would be enough to keep most writers ignorant of it. They didn't know what a star was. !

[TruthSurge]

The real point is that the Bible does not mention meteorites (the stones that fall from space?). You are speculating (w/o evidence so far) that these writers understood what a meteorite was when they didn't know what a star was. Remember, back then, knowledge was NOT homogeneous. One person might know and 50 miles away, no one knows. That's exactly how the NT works. Each writer had their own take on the "gospel" due to that very fact.

[mbruck77]

Meteors are easy to observe, especially the Perseids. I have seen them with my bare eyes, not just once.

Wikipedia reference meteorite fall stats (that is meteors that were observed during the fall and subsequently collected) with very fluctuating numbers but around 1-2 recovered pieces per year and continent. Plus the rate of meteors seems to vary over the centuries influenced by comets that cross our orbit.

[TruthSurge]

I don't disagree with any of that. But that doesn't help a case that wants to state that the Bible mentions meteorites. that's all I'm saying.

[LordSlag]

bruck77,

I came back here to once again school you about the obvious fact that if the almighty creator of the cosmos had told anybody anything about the state of the universe their holy books would be billions of orders of magnitude more accurate than they are since they are COMPLETELY wrong about nearly everything. But I see that TruthSurge has already pwned you quite nicely. Believe whatever you wish, but vox populi and sincerity won't make it true.

[mbruck77]

Very generous of you, LordSlag. It probably has escaped you that I am an atheist. Otherwise you might have been able to focus at the actual question at hand instead of arguing straw men and throwing around red herrings.

[velikakola]

in those days stars were there to scare to death demons and could fall down like poor lucifer did. but prophets were wrong, because those shooting stars were just tired demons that were insolently listenning to the conversations of god and his angels.

testament of solomon 113

today we all know that solomon was misinformed about meteors too. how so?

because gabriel explained to mohammed that shooting stars were nothing but missiles used to kill those evil bastards.

Q 67:5

[LordSlag]

mbruck,

Classic projection on your part. The plain and simple matter is that referring to something does not imply knowledge. For what you are saying to be true, that holy texts mention meteorites and are therefore miraculous, would mean that the writers of the bible would have actually known what they were, which is not the case. They thought it was a "star" falling to earth, which is ridiculous. Or, perhaps you need to do a better job defining your question. Pick one and proceed.

[mbruck77]

Could you point out where I claimed or even implied that holy texts were miraculous or that the biblical belief that stars and meteors are the same is anything but incorrect?

[LordSlag]

Your comment above reads: The first link on Google quotes the relevant text snippets. I assume that falling star refers to a meteoroid, what else could it mean?

Rev 9:1 "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth" sounds like the description of a meteorite to me. END COMMENT.

Wow, that took me less than a minute to find and post. DOH! You look dumb.

[mbruck77]

Where does it claim miracles? Where does it say they had a scientifically correct understanding? Why do you replace reasoning with insults?

[LordSlag]

It claims a miracle because the "star fall from heaven unto the earth" happens BECAUSE A FIFTH ANGEL SOUNDED, DUMBFUCK! There are no angles, they cannot "sound", and stars do not fall to earth because of that sound and if any of the previous were actually true that would be....wait for it:

A MIRACLE!

Your second question is therefore irrelevant and the answer to your third question is because reasoning isn't getting through so maybe if I add insults, it will. I'm trying something different.

[mbruck77]

Your straw man was: "For what you are saying to be true, that holy texts mention meteorites and are therefore miraculous"

Your latest comment explains that the authors of the Bible claimed things to be miraculous. Notice I am not one of the authors of the Bible. So you have still not justified your straw man.

When I say the authors of the Bible knew snakes because there is a story about a talking snake right at the beginning then that doesn't mean that I think snakes can talk.

[LordSlag]

mfucked68,

Your strawman accusations against me are merely so much hay. You stated in a previous comment that you googled references to meteorites in the bible and then listed some verses as a retort to say that the writers DID in fact mention them. But, they were ignorant of all facts of the matter. Therefore, they did nothing more than describe as best they could what they didn't understand and nothing more. To say they mentioned "meteorites" is to grant them knowledge they DID NOT POSSESS.

[mbruck77]

Yes, TruthSurge made that very valid point days ago without all the straw men and insults.

[LordSlag]

There are no strawmen in my arguments and continuing to assert it will not make it so. Logic wasn't working so when that fails insults mixed with reason either piss people off, or they do work, as in your case, no matter how left handed your admission of being wrong is.

[mbruck77]

Your arguments are straw men because in your desire to shout me down with insults you did not take the time to read what I had actually said but rather preferred to argue against a absurd fantasy interpretation of my words.

[LordSlag]

I read what you posted. You attributed knowledge to iron age goat herders they did not possess based on bible references. The points I made were not sinking through that cinder-block head of yours UNTIL I started insulting you. You simply left me with no other option. It's clear, however, you cannot admit fault no matter how red-handed you are caught. At this point I'm just wondering how long you will go on whining about non-existent straw-men arguments thinking it vindicates you somehow.

[mbruck77]

Your very first post already closes ", dumbass.". Your latest post is therefore an obvious lie.

I originally posted only to highlight that a strict search for the term meteorite is insufficient to exclude the possibility that there are descriptions of such observations in the text. I actually had no interest at all to argue what did or didn't iron age goat herders know.

[LordSlag]

Or, perhaps, I just made a mistake and was feeling less than forgiving that day.

In reality, you're the liar. It's painfully obvious from YOUR first post you tried to apply miraculous knowledge to the desert wanderers from thousands of years ago. And, if you didn't want to argue the point in the first place, why did you do so in such a vociferous manner? Oh, I almost forgot, you're a moron.

[mbruck77]

Lol. Whatever, Mr. mind reader.

[LordSlag]

And, with that mindless little nugget of cliche, I suppose the conversation ends.