ThunderF00t's pissing match with DawahFilms

[OHanswerME4Hamlet20]

FUCK Malam alakam

[ASTCify]

Dawahfilms was slow as hell.

[truevoiceofsanity]

@ASTCify Some of the formal muslim greetings are cumbersome. Most of the muslims I know don;t talk like that. ;).

[CHAS1422]

Finally, I wanted to say that Naziism and Imperial Japan were also self serving ideologies with no intrinsic individual rights. These ideologies awakened a sleeping giant. In your video you show the grand daddy of responses, the bomb dropped on Nagasaki. Perhaps you should also show what led to the horriffic response. Maybe a few shots of the Nanking slaughter, Pearl Harbor, The Phillipines, Guadalcanal. Just to be fair that the giant was responding to a threat.

[truevoiceofsanity]

@CHAS1422 You have Taoist potential. As I said in my commentary, the selection of graphic pictures of killing of innocent people can and are used to manipulate people considerably. My point is that in the context of TF's video, "nuke Iran" might be the sort of nuance that DF read into the original. Images of japan were included because the original comment came from a Japanese commenting on Pearl harbour. ;).

[CHAS1422]

@truevoiceofsanity I should have read the commentary, as you say. I dislike the one-sided approach of rights from Islam, they demand but offer none in return. The westernized muslims offer talent, and are creative in the allotted disciplines generated by free society, but where Islam is the constitution, and Imams rule with impunity, I see horrible repressive censored cruel invasive uncreative judgemental misogynistic monolithic delusional theocratic societies emerge.

[truevoiceofsanity]

@CHAS1422 And I agree. The Japanese and German regimes were involved in lots of horrible acts and were horrible regimes. War is war. Innocents were still killed by us. Was it necessary in a total war scenario? I don't know; perhaps it was. Innocents still died. I could make a war is evil video but that would take a long time to do objectively. It would also be pretty disgusting. The images in my video were bad enough.

[CHAS1422]

Also I want to add that I am a believer in rights and not tolerance. "Tolerance" implies that toleration comes from a higher authority while "rights" are intrinsic. Open and free discussion is not allowed under sharia law, religion is the only law and Imams are its interpretation. In Islamic countries apostacy is punishable crime, as is atheism, and so is preaching another faith or even building a church or synogogue .

[gellymatos]

@CHAS1422 Funny thing actually. "Rights" are a form of morality, which is subjective. Not that there's anything wrong with rights. Just something to think about. Second, interpretation of Sharia law varies. And not all islamic countries are controling in such a way. Look up all islamic countries. Look up the different denominations. Look up all the facts.

[truevoiceofsanity]

@CHAS1422 Actually I like a rabbi's view of tolerance I once heard; he claimed tolerance didn't imply "understanding" but dealing with something inherently "objectionable" to one's sentiments. Rights are not instrinsic; the rights we have evolved within our society over a rather long period of time. I don't agree with sharia law; I know some muslim groups compaigning AGAINST it. I'm unsure of DF's opinion on it but he apparently believes in open discussion of ideas.

[gellymatos]

@truevoiceofsanity The problem is that tolerance can sort of vary. To tolerate a belief is one thing. To tolerate something offensive or offensive behavior is another. And the two are often mixed.

[CHAS1422]

@truevoiceofsanity It's one thing to "believe" in something yet quite another to support it. The Koran supports making war against disbelief. There is little interpretation required to the hostility and condemnation of the kaffir. The hadith glorify the victories over unbelievers and early Islam spread through prescribed conquest. The bill of rights does not say "make war with Islam until there is no more Islam" but the Koran does against the disbeliever.

[gellymatos]

@CHAS1422 Interpretation and context are the key. When the Koran says to kill it's enemies, what context is it in? Why is it saying in that particular instance to kill? Is it only refering to a specific instance in that moment in history (as in a story)? And then there's the big question TF and others like him in generalizing fail to answer: If this is what all muslim's believe, why aren't all of the devout, yet moderate muslims not doing so?

[CHAS1422]

@gellymatos You say interpretation and context are key, I say your comment evades the truth. Muhammed was a war lord & the deprivations, restrictions, judgements, dread of disbelief, disdain & encitement of terror for the kaffir he placed upon his followers through explicit instruction alledgedly from Allah, (especially toward his young male followers), bred a medievel war machine that conquered multi-millions of square miles from it's neighbors. These were the "TRUE" muslims.

[gellymatos]

@CHAS1422 Actually, you just evaded my question and point. I wasn't talking about the worst in Muhammed. I was talking about muslims. And this "TRUE" muslim thing sounds like no true scotsman in reverse. I'm sorry, but last I checked my friends who are muslims aren't a bunch of killers. Nor have they threatened anyone. My question remains. What of the majority of muslims who aren't radical, killers, or extremists.

[CHAS1422]

@gellymatos Yes I agree that most muslims are generally peaceful, but I think that M himself condemned the reluctant warrior. What then is real Islam? It seems to be a slippery doctrine, and yet its adherents say it is perfect uncorruptable and clear. It seems to morph from a war God intent on condemning & destroying disbelief to a bunch of freedom loving individuals who actually make friends with and infiltrate the unbelieving kaffir. Notice how the immigration is all one way?

[gellymatos]

@CHAS1422 You know, there's a really simple solution I thought someone would suggest, but no one has bothered trying: Ask said muslims and their leaders. Ask the muslim leaders (I can never remember what they call their priests) and ask about the differences in interpretations. It's really that simple. Yet, I highly doubt such followers of "logic and reason" of TF's ilk will try to find it. Look for the facts. Don't just take the info handed to you. And immigration into...

[gellymatos]

@gellymatos ... a more developed country isn't exactly an unusual idea. I mean, people have been migrating to the U.S. for quite a while. And western european nations have had similar issues. Hardly religious reasons.

[truevoiceofsanity]

@CHAS1422 Sadly, its a total bitch trying to understand the hadith, let alone deciding which ones to accept or which schools. History involves muslims acting differently towards other religions depending on the time period but yes, conquests happened. I'm not qualified to discuss their theology but only to suggest diversity of opinion exists including secular leaning muslims.

[2rocker4life]

Thunderf00t considers himself and "educator", but he has this extremely propagandist style of presentation.

His argument with Dawahfilms simply amounts to an exchange of threats. They've vindicated each others' fears.

[truevoiceofsanity]

@2rocker4life "They've vindicated each others' fears", I agree!!! However if you take either of their words in context, neither is in fact "intent" on vindicating the other's fears. They are more in agreement than in disagreement in terms of democracy. I will have to watch more closely for signs of a "propagandist" style of presentation ... ;). In this case, I'm agreeing so far but I suspect he really believed what he said.

[CHAS1422]

Unfortunately life & death struggles elicite life & death responses. It appears we are growing into one. It is unfortunate fact that Islam is an ideology that is intent on ruling just like any other 2nd rate self serving ideology. If I can find a mosque in the heart of washington DC because the right to worship freely, & Muslims freely convert others to thier ideology, yet in the heart of Islam reciprocity is illegal because you cannot challenge the religion, then a struggle WILL take place.

[gellymatos]

You, sir, have responded better than any thunderf00t fan I've ever met. Frankly, I think I've yet to find one that I like or really respected. I never cared for thunderf00t. I REALLY(emphasis due to lack of italics) never cared for his fans. But you've done brilliantly in just your explaination in the summary of this vid. Damn good job.

[truevoiceofsanity]

@gellymatos thanks. Generally, I get the impression thunderf00t puts a lot of thought into his video. Ultimately, I believe in his integrity. He makes many excellent points about science and genetics that make his videos a joy to watch.

[gellymatos]

@truevoiceofsanity Yeah, to me, that's the only time he has any integrity. Whenever he gets onto a religion that isn't a fundementalist one, they end up being flawed. And his fans just give me the same crap fundementalist christians have given me. Check that. I've gotten just a tad worse from atheists. Ironically, in the form of death threats or insisting I deserve to die in another holocaust. Look, tf puts thought, it just never strikes me a good thoughts.

[gellymatos]

@gellymatos Listen to me. I'm just bitching now. lol. Look, you did well. It was an objective assesment. And I really don't seen enough of those around here. It seems to me you understand not to generalize groups or assume anything about them. If you're truly a guy who believes in innocent until proven otherwise, than you have my respect.

[truevoiceofsanity]

@gellymatos As a Taoist, I have to struggle to be that way lol. That is, balance is a fundemental principle upon which that philosophy rests. ;). Of course, I was attracted to Taoism because of this balance and not the other way around. I think it is very wrong to strawman ppl's positions if you can avoid it. I try my very best to be fair. I've made invalid assumptions about ppl in the past but I try my best not to.

[gellymatos]

@truevoiceofsanity Good to know. I myself have it out against red herrings of all sorts. Making unfounded assumptions is something to be avoided. I myself make sure to avoid it.

[truevoiceofsanity]

@gellymatos Yes. I sometimes generalize in cases where I believe the generalization is valid but I've been caught being in the wrong on a number of occasions. Typically when I do make assumptions, I try to validate them but sometimes I have made ppl angry when I did this lol. In the future, I might change approaches. I do strive to be fair. Thanks for your comments. ;).

[gellymatos]

@truevoiceofsanity Meh, I have no liking for generalizations. Generalizations are usually based off of one douche who gets the most attention. I mean, the only time one can really criticize all of a belief is for the beliefs they all share.