How David Baker's Bebop Scales come about - for anyone interested

[ChairsMusic]

Thanks brother! i'm actually going to buy this book, now i'm not buying it anymore. i will watch all your videos and study them. i've been wondering for years how bebop works and come about. how on earth i'm going to thank you?

Happy 2012 to you.

be Blessed

[19990SAND]

You make good good sense Thank you :) Happy New Year :)

[conn6m]

1. I just blocked MfeltTheMusic and I'll tell you all why. The Guy is an idiot. He dosn't know the first thing about the meaning of the word Coincidence or Jazz harmony. To say a coincidence happens 100% of the time. What planet is this guy living on. The whole meaning of coincidence is a rare coming together of two unconnected events. There's nothing unconnected about notes in scales. If you accept his reasoning Newton and Einstein's work in physics was all just pure coincidence.

[conn6m]

@conn6m 2 secondly he calls himself a musician (look on his site) and yet he doesn't understand harmony. His argument is to say it does not really matter what choice note the boppers used. It could have been anything. He states you can use the #11 to colour a major scale - complete rubbish. To use the #11 (that's F# on c major) as a passing note would mean the note F would be on a beat - and you all know what that means. a fourth on a c major chord breaks the rules of tensions.

[conn6m]

3. You know i've spent years thinking about this and then I get someone whos only way to criticize is to say its all coincidence. How would you all feel about that? How do you think Newton would feel if his laws of motion had been simply dismissed as coincidence. If people are going to comment on here please talk sence,

[MFeltTheMusic]

As interesting and colorful this is, I have to disagree with this. If you examine solos from major artist since the bebop period (Bird, Dizzy, Bud, Brownie, Cannonball, Bill Evans, Trane, Miles and so on), they have used the added note in the bebop scales as just as a device to make chord tones fall on the downbeats (passing tones). While interesting, I feel your discoveries are purely coincidental.

[conn6m]

@MFeltTheMusic Thanks for your comment but at the moment Im sticking to my theory - for a number of reasons. 1. I don't belive in coincidence odds on me getting this right on every scale are just to high. 2. There are other reasons like the harmonic's that a saxophone gives off, or the fact that using scale substitution on chords and then adding upper harmonics appears to explain other aspects of bakers book - like enclosures. I think this is important because it ultimately explains bop Rhythm.

[MFeltTheMusic]

@conn6m 1. It's possible for a coincidence to happen 100% of the time. I can say there's a tritone in every bebop scale but that has no relevance to it. 2. I never said they WERE bebop artists, I referred to them as major artists SINCE the bebop era who have used bebop scales. 3. The #5 CAN be used to color a major line on the downbeat, like the #11 which isn't apart of the major bebop scale. 4. And you're asking others to consider your point of view yet you're shooting down everyone else's. o_0

[conn6m]

@MFeltTheMusic 2. This brings me to another point. You state that Cannonball, Evans, Trane, Miles are bebop players - they are not. This is because of the way they phrase their solos. The rhythm in a Cannonball Adderley solo is very different in many places to Charlie Parker. Davis was a total individual who again phrases his solos different as does Coltrane and Evans. The term hard bop comes to mind with these players. Diz, Bud, Brown,Fats,Stitt are pure bebop players their Rythm is pure Bird

[conn6m]

@MFeltTheMusic 3. You also state that the added notes are just passing tones, Wrong! You hear them on the beat all the time by all kinds of people even the likes of Richie Cole (this would appear as b13 on a major chord). However, you only play them on the beat in special circumstances - again thinking about upper harmonics explains beautifully why they work on the beat - something concert composers call false relations,

[conn6m]

@MFeltTheMusic 4. In several months time (when I get the chance) I will be putting on a much longer video about Charlie Parker - how I see him.(You tube has just upgraded my site) This will be a hell of a lot more Controversial as I'll be discussing US racism which I think played a great deal more in the birth of bebop than a lot of American writers care to admit, I'll also explain the theory in greater detail.

So keep looking in - if only one person finds it interesting it be worth while.

[conn6m]

You lot must all be genius like Charlie Parker. I've said here that you can play these added notes on the beat in certain situations, Yet no one has asked me how or why. Unless you understand this you can never really understand Bebop. Charlie Parker said 'I realized by using the high notes of the chords as a melodic line, and by the right harmonic progression, I could play what I heard inside me. That's when I was born' What did he mean?

[BashuUp]

yes, the 14 n0te scale -good one.

[conn6m]

To anyone who has been reading these comments between myself and the Guys from Croatia. I will put on a video to answer their criticisms. The trouble is they haven't really understood the video or read David Bakers book. If they had they would know that these harmonic notes are added to traditional scales - you don't form scales out of them. You just look for the best note to add (ie the G# to the Cmajor scale) and then create a new scale from the existing one. ie Cmajor bebop from C major.

[conn6m]

@conn6m 2. As far as these harmonics being out of tune (ie they don't sound like the notes in the equal tempered scale I will show this to be false also _ because they havn't understood the video! I stated that these notes should be considered as passing notes Yes in David Bakers scales. However when we think of them as harmonics you can actually play them on the beat - listen to Richie Coles harolds House of Jazz for an example of upper harmonics on the beat.

[conn6m]

@conn6m 3, Think about these upper harmonics and the fact that my explaination actually shows the added notes in the scales of David Baker. The odds of me gettting the correct note every time from the upper harmonics on all the scales is 35 to 1 - now dosen't that number actually show I'm right.

Lastly if you examine solos by charlie parker my explaination makes sence of aspects that David Baker doesn't touch on.

Also Im blocking these people I havn't got time to argue the toss like this.

[Zelimir666]

If your theory is correct about correlation between upper harmonics and Bebop scale how you explain F and A in C major Bebop scale? You have just written these two notes without explanation. So, with your upper harmonics theory scale from C, E and G would be. C D E G G# H C, and that is not C major Bebop scale as far as I know.

[conn6m]

@Zelimir666 1, You should see the D F B and G# as passing notes. The A is a standard tension on a C chord. Harmony notes CEG are based on frequency relationships between the harmonics on the note C. However, added notes DFAB are based on tensions between the note and the chord tone. In this respect the note F is bad but because Baker treats it as a passing note it is quite acceptable. The upper harmonics on the chord represent notes that are added to this scale.

[Zelimir666]

@conn6m You contradict to yourself. In your video you said that G# is not passing not like David Baker said in his book, and that is difference between passing note and harmonic note, but in your replay to me you said "You should see the D F B and G# as passing note". So, what is difference between G# which is harmonic of E and D which is harmonic of G. If you said that G# is not a passing note, than D isn't eather passing note. You shoud get diploma from contradictions.

[conn6m]

@Zelimir666 2. So in this respect we look at the upper harmonics (on the chord) and see what notes or not in the relevant scale. In this case the note is G#. Therefore that is the note we add.

Remember that in jazz harmony the f is not a tension. Its origin lies in early modal music. Jazz musicians generally avoid it and substitute F# on a c maj chord.

I know this is complex. I've studied Harmony at classical and jazz so it seems quite simple to me. I

will try to put on a vid for clarity

[TheKristijanFunaric]

@conn6m 1.

Well it is simple but there is a fundamental mistake when you explain tempered harmonic relations with harmonics, because upper harmonics are basically NON-TEMPERED, and scale built with those intervals is some totally different world of sound. So , upper harmonic are built the way you study in the early beginnings of history of a music, and that way was explained by Pithagora (2/3, 3/4, 4/5, ..8/9, 9/10 etc). Our ear doesnt know those intervals used in non-tempered scale system.

[conn6m]

@TheKristijanFunaric 1. I don't think you quite understand which is probably my fault but this is hard to explain without actually showing you. Pythagorean tuning is not based on the ratios you have written down but on only one; the ratio 3:2 which produces a perfect fifth. Pythagorean then took the fifth and expanded it. so FCGDAEB from these notes he created a scale. However this scale was way out of tune with the harnomics on the orignal note - thoes ratios you quoted.

[conn6m]

@TheKristijanFunaric 2. So then a guy called Gioseffo Zarlino came along and introduced Just tempered tuning. This is a scale that alters the Pythagorean and brings it much closer to the harmonics on the original note. You say that this scale is totally different world of sound but you are wrong. Cappella groups use just intonation as does the scotish bagpipes and the trombone/violin can also play just intonation so its not that far off what we are use to hearing.

[TheKristijanFunaric]

@conn6m

refers to Pithagora are refers to intervals, not scales. i am not talking about scale Pythagora created, only intervals. scale is created depending on intervals used , and a friend of mine, and my guitar menthor just released a book on that issue, which is probably gonna be used in «Akademie für Musik und Dartstellende Kunst», cause he is their former student. And he is probably one of leading european experts  nowdays on this theme. here is his homepage ,so here is his homepage ..

[ultrazone888]

@conn6m

I read all .. and i can say this....

You who made this video, i hope you are at least a bit better musician and jazzist then you are a theorist .

explanation of origin of a bebop scale COMPLETELY WRONG, and as Zelimir said, no F in explanation.

so, Conn6m, i see you know a lot about just tuning, (or you just google a lot to turn put smart),so tell me why can't add three fifths in just tuning?what happens then?..And finally,you really think you may correct to D.Baker's book?

[ultrazone888]

@conn6m

I read all .. and i can say this....

You who made this video, i hope you are at least a bit better musician and jazzist then you are a theorist .

explanation of origin of a bebop scale COMPLETELY WRONG, and as Zelimir said, no F in explanation.

so, Conn6m, i see you know a lot about just tuning, (or you just google a lot to turn put smart),so tell me why can't add three fifths in just tuning?what happens then?..And finally,you really think you may correct to D.Baker's book?

[conn6m]

@TheKristijanFunaric 3. Equal tempered scale came in when musicians wanted to play diatonically (movable tonic) There is a difference between just and equal but on the important notes its not that great. A perfect 5th differs by just +1.96 cent and the per 4th by -1.96 cent. the aug 5th (bebop major scale) differs by -13.69 cent now that seems a lot. I say in my video you can play this note on the beat and its perfectly in tune with equal temperament - how? Think about it.

[jazzguitardotcom]

Very good explanation of the material. David's books and his tutelage revolutionized my playing and it's still vital to know.

[UniversityOfMunich]

@conn6m Thanks very much, that makes it quite clear. I had assumed the arrows had something to do with harmonic (rather than rhythmic) content but I understand it now. Also, thanks for going so well in depth - I hadn't expected more than a two or three line reply!

[UniversityOfMunich]

Thanks for this video, it's really great. It got my head around bebop scales much faster than any other explanation I've read/heard. I was wondering what it is it that you do around 6:30 though, with the upward and downward arrows? I apologise if it's a simple question, I've only started trying to learn jazz theory quite recently.

[conn6m]

@UniversityOfMunich Sorry if this was not clear. Bebop is actually a very complex form of music. The arrows indicate the beat of the music. Thoes that go down are strong on the beat and thoes coming up are weak. As bebop is music based on Eighth notes (US terminology) you will ideally want all chord tones to be on the beat. This does not happen with Bakers minor scale because you do not decend on the fifth. However in chordal harmony the fifth is less important than the third or seventh.

[conn6m]

@conn6m 2. In his book baker identifies the chord as Gm but this cannot be so. Anyone who knows Jazz harmony will know that Gm can only have a 9th note as tenson. Therefore Bakers chord on his scale G A Bb B C D E F G must be Gm6 with the C as an 11th tension (which is ok on Gm6.) Personally I don't like it because it identifies a tritone between the third and 6th.(ie Bb to E) This changes the character of the chord from Sub dominant to Dominant - not a good thing really - don' t you think.

[decus69]

Lol Can you play the Bb7 bop scale with the G# passing tone as an example 4 me?

[conn6m]

@decus69 I don't quite understand your question. Bb7 consists of the notes Bb D F and Ab. G# already exists as a chord tone (ie the seventh Ab) so how can you add a note that is already present?

[decus69]

Lol

[Philipperodrigues]

I was just refering that there is a reason for the G# being there apart from its passing note function, that it is not a complete accident or casuality.Nothing more .eheh

[Philipperodrigues]

Thank you mate! quite interesting knowing that.

All people i've heard before say (in this case) that the G# is a passing note.

[conn6m]

@Philipperodrigues Don't try to play these added note on the beat unless you understand what you are doing. David Baker is correct in what he says (mostly)but he does not go either far enough, or explain fully the repercussions of Bebop. Charlie Parker did not think of these added notes in terms of scales (in my opinion) but in upper harmonics of chords that could be brought into the music as desired. To get the most out of them you need to understand the fundamental series more.

[conn6m]

@Philipperodrigues 2. David Baker was the first person to write about these added notes and his book (book 1) does contain Phenomena that can be found in Parker solos. Baker gives these phenomena names like Deflection, enclosure etc. - and these things certainly exist in Birds music. However, if you have ever played one of Bakers solos from the book, they are extremely weak, and have none of the power of real bebop. Why? I asked myself and now I know. Baker is looking with too narrow a focus.

[conn6m]

@Philipperodrigues 3. I'll be putting some more vids on next month about bebop(after 18/10/10) and go into this in greater detail. Its actually a very interesting subject and one of the great musical achievements of the 20th century.