7.62x51 VS 308 WINCHESTER they are NOT THE SAME!

[glennwih]

No to Light Magnum or heavier loads than 180 grain. No to Nosler style bullets (plastic tips) and I would stick with White box Winchester 7.62x51 made to military specs. I have owned a M1A and a M1 Garand. They are picky. Chamber pressure is 10,000 psi less in Military cases.

[shananagans5]

@glennwih Where do you get that? If that was the case 308 would have higher velocities. Are you confused with CUP&PSI ? The only real diff is the NATO brass is thicker requiring a bit less powder to reach peak pressure. That's an issue if you are loading your own but not just buying rounds.They are generally interchangeable & I have not noticed any overpressure issues using .308 in a NATO chamber & get the same velocities. Actually,NATO tends to be a tad bit higher but follow your owners manuals

[glennwih]

@shananagans5 You have no idea what you are talking about. Horandy reloading manual (or any manual) will say a 10,000 psi difference between the the 2 cartridges. The .308 Win. was not used in M1-Garand conversions because it was too hot and damaged the reworked M1-Garand in the 1950's Army trials. Europe wanted a slightly lighter load to accommodate metallurgy difference in tinsel strength between industry standards. Hence, the 7.62x51 NATO (North American Treaty Organization).

[glennwih]

@shananagans5 You really shouldn't write stupid things like that it makes you look bad.

[bigfootcock]

Can you shoot off the shelf .308 in a Springfield M1A (civilian M14) chambered for 7.62? thanks.

[HunterKiller308]

overall the 7.62x51 is a better round

[glennwih]

@HunterKiller308 Really? Why? I think it's apples and oranges.

[HunterKiller308]

@glennwih more like apple to apple, both rounds fill the same role, machine guns and DM rifles.

the .308 carrys more energy out to longer ranges and its flatter shooting

[glennwih]

@HunterKiller308 Nope, but you are close. An analogy would be a Red apple to green apple. Both can be used to make apple pie but the green apples are the best.

[djqx]

@glennwih lol. 

[HunterKiller308]

@glennwih then i guess 7.62 NATO is the green apple =)

[gjohnnygun]

The difference is so minimal it doesn't matter, you can shoot either type in either type of rifle.

I have done this for over 12 years with zero problems.

Not that it matters but I am a Machinist and Gunsmith by trade.

[glennwih]

@gjohnnygun No. That's just stupid. A Spanish Mauser in 7mm will blow up with light mag and full pressure .308 Win.

[gjohnnygun]

@glennwih What does a Spanish Mauser in 7mm have to do with 308 and 7.62X51 ?

[glennwih]

@gjohnnygun ??? A very popular conversion rifle by several companies and govt.s 30 years ago. Kaboom in your face.

[glennwih]

@gjohnnygun 11,000 psi difference in chamber pressure. DON'T DO IT!

[HunterKiller308]

@gjohnnygun you are so full of shit, keep that moronic garbage to yourself fuckhead

[DA1EMMERSON]

meh.... not advisable i can accept ... but both 7.62 and 308 will shoot and shoots accurately...

[glennwih]

@DA1EMMERSON Do what you want.

[iceman27406]

@glennwih you can use 7.62mm NATO in a 308 Win rifle because they are basically the exact same case on the outside and the nato round is a little more robust however I would NOT use 308 Win in a 7.62mm NATO rifle because the case is thinner and like you said could rupture how bad that is depends on how well your rilfe is designed/put together etc etc.

[glennwih]

@iceman27406 Yes. To be safe, I always use SA R1M1 or RADWAY R1M1 or Win 7.62 White Box for Military guns. Bolt guns whatever.

[DA1EMMERSON]

well the proof is in the shooting.... and both the 7.62 and the 308 hold a steady group at 600 yards ..... soooo ..... that's just the way is it ,,,, one simple test is worth a thousand expert or amateur opinions .....

[glennwih]

@DA1EMMERSON You are fooling yourself. I never said it wouldn't shoot, I said it is not advisable. As a former Primary Marksmanship Instructor in the Marines and having owned over 100 firearms and I've built .308 semi-autos, believe me when I say don't do it.

[DA1EMMERSON]

or look on your cetme ...... mine is marked with both 308 and 7.62 on the side so i put in a call to my local gunsmith .... he says " them folks on that internet don't know squat" lmao .....but i still found the question valid so i looked further on it found a phone number ...... RED JACKET..... but I'm not naming names .... they said shoot em both " the guys on the internet don't know s*^&$"....... so thats all i could come up with asking the experts ....... but its your gun do as you like

[glennwih]

@DA1EMMERSON See Larry Potter's video about ammo choice on MidWay USA's YT channel. He shows a cut-away of the differences in ammo specs. Cut a chamber in half and put a 7.62x51 NATO spec cartridge in there. Then, put a hunting round from say Winchester. They are dramatically different in where the rim of the necks stop and start. I am right about this topic. As for Red Rocket (?aka Red Jacket) and your gunsmith, they do not know shit. With all due respect.Safe shooting.

[DA1EMMERSON]

@glennwih yes there is a difference at the neck and the rim there's no question about that...... but they both shoot.... and with all due respect I think I will take the experts advice with my firearms... have fun and use common sense when handling firearms.....

[glennwih]

@DA1EMMERSON No. You're wrong. The internal case capacity and wall thickness can equal as much as 10,000 psi difference. Don't be a fool. It's your face behind the rifle. And no, your so called experts are wrong. I am right, that's the end of it.

[imperialfragments]

CETME or FN FAL will devour both. NO fails shoot and see :)

[ScopedOUT2]

You can use .308 winchester in a 7.62 NATO but not vise versa

[glennwih]

@ScopedOUT2 Nato chamberings fresh from the factory are slightly larger. Do not mix the ammo. CETME: Use Nato brass. Browning A-Bolt: Use .308.

[ScopedOUT2]

@glennwih What? I asked about this one already, you can shoot .308 in a 7.62 NATO, because the chambering is larger and will take the low pressures of a .308 Winchester. Accuracy will suffer a bit. However, if you put a 7.62 NATO the barrel and the chamber can't tolerate it.

I shoot .308 through a 7.62 NATO all the time, it runs fine and clean.

Also, you may want to revise this video so what is posted could be read and also explained. The words are too small to read.

[glennwih]

@ScopedOUT2 No, don't do that. The thinner wall and higher pressure of .308 (up to 10,000 higher) ammo can cause cartridge failures. The video is clear, I am right. You need to think about it again. .308 and 7.62 NATO are not the same. There is no debating that fact.

[soldier715]

The title in the video and the definition of the video are contradicting. 7.62x51 in a .308 chamber = okay. .308 Win in a 7.62x51 chamber = maybe to bad depending on gun, chamber specs, tolerances.

[glennwih]

@soldier715 It's a factual explanation based on science and physics not hyperboli.

[soldier715]

@glennwih I'm not saying this isn't true, I'm saying the description of the video is wrong. The video explains why firing .308 Win in a 7.62x51 Nato chamber can be a problem, true. The description below the video is claiming that firing 7.62x51 Nato in a .308 Win chamber is dangerous, false. CETME rifles may say they are .308 Win on the side but most of the barrel chambers are cut using HK 7.62x51 specs = CETME's are 7.62x51, not .308, video is right, def of video isn't.

[geraldb4201]

well i shoot the lakecity 7.62x51 and 308win out of my remington mod 742 all the time the real difference is that the winchester cases hold a few grains more powder do to the thiner case walls the main think is the primers most mil spec have bredan primers and are a bit harder than the boxer type primers on winchester ammo

[glennwih]

@geraldb4201 It's your safety. I would recommend calling Remington and asking them what they say?

[depravedpuma]

My calculations show that 7.62 mm is = to .3 and the .308 is = to 7.82 which would make the .308 ammo longer than the 7.62 nato round

[glennwih]

@depravedpuma You're off. Munnitions are measured to .001. It's not the bullet diameter, it's the case capacity.

[glennwih]

Yes. You can only tell from the headstamp or box or micro-measurements. Carefull!

[glennwih]

@piechee Is that a ?

[Donatellangelo]

Can't use a .308 in a 7.62, but I hear you can use a 7.62 in a .308. :)

[glennwih]

@Donatellangelo I use, in my CETME, South African ammo only. It is very, very good stuff but hard to find. 200 rd pack for $80.00 US.

[ajohnson]

What about the other way around, can a 7.62 Nato be fired in a .308 chambered rifle? Your slide doesn't cover that. I have a DPMS AR10 in .308 win.

[TheEnglishRedneck45]

I am a complete novice with regards .308 shooting, as I have only competed with .22LR at 25m - the laws over here make it a right pain. I am however joining a .308 shoot in a few months. They have said that the .308 = 7.62x51. Is the .308 different to a .308WIN then?

[glennwih]

@TheEnglishRedneck45 Be safe and listen to me, do not put a .308 winchester round in a NATO military 7.62x51 rifle like the MAS-49, CETME, HK-91, PTR-91 etc. Only use South African 1980-81 ammo in the green sleeve. British RADWAY is good too. Indian or Pakastani is bad crap.

[TheEnglishRedneck45]

@glennwih My apologies, I am still confused. If a rifle is chambered in .308, does that automatically mean it is .308WIN? We can only shoot bolt actions over here, if that makes a difference to the type of round fired?

[glennwih]

@TheEnglishRedneck45 The problem is that older rifles have been converted for the slightly lower pressured 7.62x51 NATO round often refereed to as the 7.62. It is 1% different in dimensions than the .308 Winchester. Especially the brass thickness. The thinner brass in hte .308 winchester is so that more powder can be loaded in a modern bolt action. The problem is that the chamber pressures are about 4-10,000 psi different.

[TheEnglishRedneck45]

@glennwih Thank you for the information, grealy appreciated.

[Karpalet]

@glennwih

.308 inch = 7.82mm...

[glennwih]

@Karpalet Read all the comments before you state the obvious.

[roadapple66]

This information is correct. Most bolt action rifles do not have this problem. The case just gets "fire-formed" to fit the chamber. DO consult the maker of your firearm.

[glennwih]

@roadapple66 Agreed.

[RPXXPR]

BTW, I don't have a CETME or a PT-91, But, I know my custom M4 Style 7.62NATO/308 (Approximately the same length, Same collapsible stock, Removeable Carry Handle with Iron Sights, Same length Barrel as the M4 and 20+1 Mags and I have 2 30rd mags however, their too long for my liking, but it was specifically chambered to be able to handle both cartridges. The guy who put my rifle together I spoke with on the phone and he assured me of no problems. of course it's not a CETME or PT91

[Onyxfox13]

Bushmaster also advertises it's, Bushmaster® .308 ORC as both a .308 and a 7.62.

It's also amazing that a company a well known as Colt would say that the new Nato modular battle carbine is also 7.62/.308 especially when they are trying to sell it to the US and NATO. Don't you think that would be a pretty big mistake. If it's not true of course.

[glennwih]

@Onyxfox13 Good points. However, the facts are the facts. I don't care what anyone on youtube says that they haven't had problems "YET." 7.62x51 and 308 winchester are not EXACTLY the same round. They're close as could be, but close in guns can be lethal.

[Onyxfox13]

I agree with ChromeFreak123 on this. I and many people I know have used both and with no problems, Ever. Being a soldier and a gun collector I am always looking at the specs and ability of my weapons. This is simply not an issue. And if you are refering to the randomly cooked or damaged round I challenge you to find any weapon that at some point won't shread a cassing.

[glennwih]

@Onyxfox13 Stupid is as stupid does. Take yourself out of the gene pool dude; keep using the wrong ammo.

[Onyxfox13]

@glennwih alright seeing as how you obviously know more than the engineers who designed the weapons you keep ranting about how you can't handle it and i'll keep shooting. Have fun buddy.

[glennwih]

@Onyxfox13 Your comment is an oxymoron. You just contradicted yourself. The engineers who desigend the NATO 7.62x51 never recommended using their ammo in .308 Winchester rounds. Look it up dude. I don't give a damn about your experiences. Don't be an unsafe idiot.

[RPXXPR]

@Onyxfox13

I'm now in college, But I did two tours. When a manufacturer chambers a gun and then says that it can shoot both, this is possible. It should only be avoided if the manufacturer does not make it clear that you can shoot both. Because if it says in your manual that you can 7.62 or .308 and something bad happened to ANYONE using their guns, So apparently, NOBODY has experienced a catastrophic failure resulting in injury in weapons where the manual says you can use either.

[RPXXPR]

@RPXXPR

I say this because I checked out case law on a few different manufacturers, and Bushmaster, DPMS nor Colt have ever been sued for using 7.62NATO in a .308 or vice versa. BTW, My ACR, only needs it's Barrel and magazine changed to go from 5.56 to 6.8SPC. I know that's a little different. Lets remember the actual Projectile, the bullet is the same, it's the case that's different. I would love to see someone come up with a reputable report of someone being seriously injured from this

[glennwih]

@RPXXPR The case wall thickness and OAL are diff. Anyone would be a fool to risk it. PTR-91 owners are told on the manufacturer's website to not use 7.62x51 NATO spec ammo in their rifles. Winchester makes a specific white box black lettered NATO 7.62x51 ammo. They are not the same and should never be mixed. It's funny how some people try pushing the barrier of common sense.

[RPXXPR]

@glennwih

Had you read all my posts I said I would only do it if the manufacturer specifically says that you can, if they say you can't, then you shouldn't.

[RPXXPR]

@glennwih

I don't know about PTR-91, never shot one, but my Custom Sabre Defense(also a military contractor I believe) Custom makes M4 type rifles in all calibers, I have 2, and the one from Sabre was Custom built every part, They assured me the chambering would handle .308&7.62NATO without having to worry about anything. It's like the difference between 6.8SPC and 6.8SPC II, The different chambering allows you to shoot SSA ammo which has way to high pressure for the regular SPC vs. SPC II

[RPXXPR]

@glennwih

To me it always comes down to what the manufacturer says, Just like it says on some ammo, if your not sure if your firearm can fire this ammo, then consult the manufacturer and to me that's the bottom line. Strictly go by whatever the people who built the firearm say, they engineered it and should know it best, bottom line for me. Maybe that's just the mentality I picked up from the military, to have a chain of command sensibility, but I don't know it's just the way that I am

[glennwih]

@RPXXPR Agreed.

[Defrathos]

Civilian rifles: .308 WIN only

Military rifles: Both 7.62 NATO and .308 WIN

If you dont want to fuck up your chamber or the rifling and even the muzzle end respect that simple rule ;)

[glennwih]

@Defrathos Any research shows that there is a difference. Can you shoot them in either gun, yes. However, it is not the designed intentions of the engineers of the CETME, HK-91, PTR-91 and others. No one should do it. It's just not safe.

[RPXXPR]

@Defrathos

That's weird because I purchased a "civilian rifle" that was chambered for 7.62x51, it says so on the side of the rifle. However, this is a different rifle, due to how much I payed for it, my class 3 (Pre-1986)M16a2 Select Fire I will only feed 5.56x45.

[glennwih]

It's based off of the same cartridge but the lengths are diff.

[ChromeFreak123]

You have complete tunnel vision. You, I guess are a lot smarter and have more knowledge than the engineers who design firearms. Lol I will not comment with after this anymore on this subject. Do you even own a roller delayed system firearm ? I one more time have shot hundreds if not thousands of .308 through my Cetme. 0 problems.

[glennwih]

@ChromeFreak123 What the hell is wrong with you? You wanted facts from a 3rd party, I got them. Stupid is as stupid does. A multi-million dollar company says that I am right. You have serious problems.

[37474748]

agreed man agreed!!! :D you can fire 7.62x51's out of an 308 but i cant say its an good idea...

[glennwih]

@37474748 Sure. I never said it couldn't be done but there are consequences Kaboom!

[37474748]

@glennwih yeah it does allot of stress i think on the rifle. but we did test that out our selfs with an rifle that needed to be sighed and we had three boxes of old 7.62x51 judgeing the time stamp about 1968 on the bullets. Those fired nicely. only three out of like 75 failed. Still got two saved in my jar o goddies :)

i can be done but i dont think its wherry good for the gun like i said.

[glennwih]

@37474748 I agree. Anyone can put the .308 Win in a CETME or HK91 but why? It's dangerous, more expensive and not necessary. I get 1" groups at 100 with Australian Match 148 grain NATO SPEC. (green pouches). 300 rounds and counting and only 2 jams when I first got the rifle.

[37474748]

@glennwih well for us we had free 7.62x51 ammo three hole boxes of it. so we did it because it was free. we would not go and buy the wrong ammo. we cant even if we wanted here in sweden.

the even more common thing i see that is dangerous is mixing 30.06's and 308's and loading an 308 into an 30-06 rifle. that is extremely dangerous!

[glennwih]

@37474748 Yep. And 7mm Rem Mag will fit anfire in a .300 Win Mag but it is deadly. I read an article about it. 10mm Rem. and .40 cal are common screw ups.

[37474748]

@glennwih oh so the 7mm rem magnum and 300 win mag is the same size on the shell? i need to mesure the two i got standing here :)

something also common is the 20guage and 12guage messups. Where you put an 20 guage down the hole and it falls into the barral then you put an 12guage behind of that and when fired explodes pretty nasty.