I would like to think we can exist somewhere in between. Seems everyone on the internet is some kind of extremist. I don't think self-worth has to be derived from the individual, I believe that self-worth can come from community. I think a combination of individual and community achievements facilitate the most self-worth.
Your quote by Hoffer exactly describes the current condition in The United States today, if not in all of the Capitalist, aquisitive societies. In his defence, Hoffer could hardly have seen where the world would come 50 years later.
The best, and perhaps only, way to create sustainable meaning for humans is to explore and colonize space and fight wars against aliens. Policies furthering these goals would require humanity to unite, and each individual working towards such goals would likely feel important.
I agree that it is a sign of existential insecurity if we need monetary values to recognize our self-worth. I think you underestimate creativity, and the author you quote assumes that only a tiny portion of people are capable of it. Everyone is capable of it, given at least some material security in order to develop as a creative individual. That is the psychological foundation that many people lack in an unequal society.
Money is a fictional commodity.The institutional rules governing our current media of exchange~federal reserve notes~ create a pattern of incentive's that evidently seem to encourage greed, hoarding and worst of all a misapprehension of what real wealth is. Our money is issued into circulation as interest bearing debts and allocated by for profit private banking corporations. This is the institutional context of our cultural money mania. There is a better way to account for exchanges.
It's hard 4 me 2 agree or disaggree with Hoffer. I need 2 read his work, perhaps, lock myself up in a soundproof room, & read intently his works. then, I would force myself 2 pause, reread, shut book closed, & stare n2 empty space, 2 meditate further on what he says. I have not read much nonfiction but I should, as nonfiction forces me 2 grasp real world I live in. nice videos. good job. thanks 4 sharing Hoffer with us. u display genuine reading passion.
I grant the premise that people need to have self value and meaning.
What is wrong with people today is that they sincerely see themselves as individuals. We need to show people that they really are just a cog in the wheel of nature. We can do this by showing them how interdependent they are on their environment and how everything in their environment effects them. By showing them this they will be given not only self value for their actions but a purpose. (to be a part of
@MirageScience I believe we already know this to a large extent. Ultimately, life is how it is. For some people miserable and for some people joyful. Not all the time of course :)
As an artist, I always associate self worth with achievements. Making a lot of money to some is like getting a high score in a video game. I always aim to make art that will speak to generations. I find both the financial, and artistic achievements are valid ways of developing self worth, as long as you recognize the energy you put into your actions.
If I grasp what you are saying correctly: Hoffer accepts the pursuit of wealth as the most innocuous manner of cultivating one's self-value (or esteem). The antipathy, or the expressed indifference, of most thinkers since the time of Aristotle regarding money is quite interesting. My own hypothesis regarding the intellectuals' attitude toward money stems from the uncomfortably existential fact that its necessary pursuit puts both elite and commoner much too close together, in too many ways.
If you want to understand the psychology behind money and human behavior read "The High Price of Materialism" and/or "Psychology and Consumer Culture". Great books
Very interesting. Hoffer's quote reminded me of Freud's Civilization and it's Discontents and his idea of "man's" predisposition to brutishness without the idea of civilization which in the case you presented is hierarchically disposed to capital. In the way you presented of increasing creativity I was reminded of a talk I heard. I'll message you it.
As someone who identifies as an anarchist, I'd like to recommend two books along these lines. First, David Graeber's "Towards an Anthropological Theory of Value: The False Coin of Our Own Dreams", which builds on the work of Mauss and Marx to develop an anarchist idea of exchange. Second, Richard J.F. Day's (misleadingly titled) "Gramsci Is Dead", which builds on the work of poststructuralists and anarchists to analyze recent social movements geared towards organizing alternative communities.
money facilitates brain washing and soul raping - and many modern corporations are killing on the same scale as hitler and stalin, they're just better at confining it to the third world or through environmental destruction - killing that is less overt.
3:00 Do not make the mistake of generalizing to ALL HUMAN ENTITIES. I am perfectly fine with a scientific, "physical", and nihilistic philosophy. A sense of purpose may have some evolutionary advantages, but it can only take you so far.
The context was so utterly goofy. This person was talking smack and suggesting, in a know-it-all manner, that she is an anarchist and an authority on the topic. I had to laugh, trying not to be dismissive. And Murry Bookchin is an interesting figure in the green anarchist movement. Please, if you are interested in revolutionary change check him out.
Excuse me if this makes no sense, I have had rather a lot to drink!
I have, over the past few years gone through various periods of describing my political philosophy as communist, anarcho- communist, anarchist, libertarian.... there is just too much damned confusion about these terms, from both within and outside. But I do think that the whole money thing is a bit of a red herring, anarchism has always been about property and production not money. (cont...)
I am also reminded of Humboldt (I think) who talked about a society which recognised humanitys innate desire to be creative and ability to persue these creative desires in a productive manner as the basis for a "free society".
If hoffer is right in his skepticism of the "creativity of the ordinary man" (as seems to be suggested by your reading of him in this video, though I have not read him myself) I can see no argument for anarchism.... I won't be giving up hope just yet though!
Ina free society (free of state intervention)so long as there is a need for indirect exchange there will be money. And I dont think we will stop needing indirect exchange any time soon lol.
Also, speakin of anarchism is silly. Its to vague. There are lots of schools of anarchism. In a anarcho capitalist society there would certainly still be money.
idk, a lot of the stuff you described from brainwashing to 'proving yourself' to little social automatism to soul raping to slave drivers i find are symptomatic of money obsessed societies- for some reason sick societies, when confronted with an alternative lifestyle, seem to project there current ills on the alternative lifestyle, and go "well it'll be worse over there!", like this guy your talking about.
id be a little more wary of an anarchist who isnt familiar with emma goldman- but i really dont think theres much cause to be wary at all in anything else but in jest, you dont need to know of the works of bookchin or goldman to be an anarchist any more then you need to be familiar with dawkins to be an atheist.
i like the way things work at the rainbow family gatherings. Everyone helps and works/feeds with and for everyone everything else. Sharing, caring. Work is love, love is work. Money is obsolete. Hierarchy is obsolete. Vision instead of money. I think the gatherings are a great example of showing how humans can realize their ultimate self worth. Peace Love Unity Respect PLUR
The african pygmies are one of the oldest civilizations on the earth. The are pure anarchists. They do not permit rule making. So they have never developed any specialized activities.
I don't think it's a matter of changing the economic/political system as much as it is a kind of grassroots change that needs to take place.
I look at society as being largely fractal (The part resembles the whole.) and right now we're chugging right along with our current materialistic form of capitalism, buying up whatever crap they're hawking in the media.
We've invented a meaningless purpose. I think we need to shift our priority to exploration and the development of USEFUL technology.
Not only that but creativity/art as well. The problem with that is not everyone cares to be creative. (What's Marijuana for again?)
Useful technology... I'm not going to reinvent the wheel. Terence McKenna said it better than I ever could...
"We are going to turn the world upside down. Your science is going to be shown up for what it is; Nothing more than a pleasant metaphor usefully extrapolated into the production of toys for healthy children." - Terence Mckenna
amen to that bit about creativity having no automatic recognition and that it cannot be truly measured. its a reality that makes it difficult for working artists who constantly have to work around the constraint of client based (society) standards and managing, somehow, to not end up becoming broke push-overs devoid of the creativity that once drove them to do what they (used to love to) do. ahh well. broad topic. but i do look forward to more
ITS NEW YEARS DAY..THIS JUST POPPED UP! COOL
rodsteelaces 1 month ago in playlist More videos from Professoranton
I would like to think we can exist somewhere in between. Seems everyone on the internet is some kind of extremist. I don't think self-worth has to be derived from the individual, I believe that self-worth can come from community. I think a combination of individual and community achievements facilitate the most self-worth.
lmcdowall 5 months ago
Your quote by Hoffer exactly describes the current condition in The United States today, if not in all of the Capitalist, aquisitive societies. In his defence, Hoffer could hardly have seen where the world would come 50 years later.
NibiruLives 7 months ago
KEEP YOUR COINS
GIVE ME CHANGE!
SMILES FROM THE
SUN!
thesunshon 9 months ago
The best, and perhaps only, way to create sustainable meaning for humans is to explore and colonize space and fight wars against aliens. Policies furthering these goals would require humanity to unite, and each individual working towards such goals would likely feel important.
SonofNewo 9 months ago
I agree that it is a sign of existential insecurity if we need monetary values to recognize our self-worth. I think you underestimate creativity, and the author you quote assumes that only a tiny portion of people are capable of it. Everyone is capable of it, given at least some material security in order to develop as a creative individual. That is the psychological foundation that many people lack in an unequal society.
mikem1234 9 months ago
Another book reccommendation would be Erich Fromm's "To Have or to Be"...I also enjoyed his "The Sane Society".
smellincoffee 11 months ago
Money is a fictional commodity.The institutional rules governing our current media of exchange~federal reserve notes~ create a pattern of incentive's that evidently seem to encourage greed, hoarding and worst of all a misapprehension of what real wealth is. Our money is issued into circulation as interest bearing debts and allocated by for profit private banking corporations. This is the institutional context of our cultural money mania. There is a better way to account for exchanges.
summondadrummin 11 months ago
It's hard 4 me 2 agree or disaggree with Hoffer. I need 2 read his work, perhaps, lock myself up in a soundproof room, & read intently his works. then, I would force myself 2 pause, reread, shut book closed, & stare n2 empty space, 2 meditate further on what he says. I have not read much nonfiction but I should, as nonfiction forces me 2 grasp real world I live in. nice videos. good job. thanks 4 sharing Hoffer with us. u display genuine reading passion.
goohber1 1 year ago
Comment removed
ftlqed 1 year ago
Richard Stallman
DanMickie 1 year ago
money is important,it makes like comfortable but going all crazy about money and doing nothing except trying to earn money is stupid
" great men are not those who make millions of dollars and rot away in their tombs once they die"
great men are those whose actions remain immortal eons after their death thumbs up if u like my quote
thenvdude 1 year ago
nature)
MirageScience 1 year ago
I GOT THE ANSWER
I grant the premise that people need to have self value and meaning.
What is wrong with people today is that they sincerely see themselves as individuals. We need to show people that they really are just a cog in the wheel of nature. We can do this by showing them how interdependent they are on their environment and how everything in their environment effects them. By showing them this they will be given not only self value for their actions but a purpose. (to be a part of
MirageScience 1 year ago
@MirageScience I believe we already know this to a large extent. Ultimately, life is how it is. For some people miserable and for some people joyful. Not all the time of course :)
SOCRATES012 9 months ago
As an artist, I always associate self worth with achievements. Making a lot of money to some is like getting a high score in a video game. I always aim to make art that will speak to generations. I find both the financial, and artistic achievements are valid ways of developing self worth, as long as you recognize the energy you put into your actions.
Aestros909 1 year ago
If I grasp what you are saying correctly: Hoffer accepts the pursuit of wealth as the most innocuous manner of cultivating one's self-value (or esteem). The antipathy, or the expressed indifference, of most thinkers since the time of Aristotle regarding money is quite interesting. My own hypothesis regarding the intellectuals' attitude toward money stems from the uncomfortably existential fact that its necessary pursuit puts both elite and commoner much too close together, in too many ways.
trentamj 1 year ago
If you want to understand the psychology behind money and human behavior read "The High Price of Materialism" and/or "Psychology and Consumer Culture". Great books
LaoDecmius 2 years ago
Thanks!
Professoranton 2 years ago
the need for self worth independently of the community one lives in? does this make sense?
jum401 2 years ago
great video
seigneurvoland666 2 years ago
Very interesting. Hoffer's quote reminded me of Freud's Civilization and it's Discontents and his idea of "man's" predisposition to brutishness without the idea of civilization which in the case you presented is hierarchically disposed to capital. In the way you presented of increasing creativity I was reminded of a talk I heard. I'll message you it.
Subscribed.
Cheers
Jadabh2 2 years ago
As someone who identifies as an anarchist, I'd like to recommend two books along these lines. First, David Graeber's "Towards an Anthropological Theory of Value: The False Coin of Our Own Dreams", which builds on the work of Mauss and Marx to develop an anarchist idea of exchange. Second, Richard J.F. Day's (misleadingly titled) "Gramsci Is Dead", which builds on the work of poststructuralists and anarchists to analyze recent social movements geared towards organizing alternative communities.
SkepticalThought 2 years ago 2
Thanks so much for the references!
Professoranton 2 years ago
money facilitates brain washing and soul raping - and many modern corporations are killing on the same scale as hitler and stalin, they're just better at confining it to the third world or through environmental destruction - killing that is less overt.
planktonicorganism 2 years ago
Sad but partly true. This is an excellent point.
Professoranton 2 years ago
3:00 Do not make the mistake of generalizing to ALL HUMAN ENTITIES. I am perfectly fine with a scientific, "physical", and nihilistic philosophy. A sense of purpose may have some evolutionary advantages, but it can only take you so far.
anthonzi 2 years ago
LOL why would an anarchist have to be familiar with previous philosophers?
anthonzi 2 years ago
The context was so utterly goofy. This person was talking smack and suggesting, in a know-it-all manner, that she is an anarchist and an authority on the topic. I had to laugh, trying not to be dismissive. And Murry Bookchin is an interesting figure in the green anarchist movement. Please, if you are interested in revolutionary change check him out.
Professoranton 2 years ago
'black magic of brainwashing and soul raping' - good stuff
EZkill25l7 2 years ago
Excuse me if this makes no sense, I have had rather a lot to drink!
I have, over the past few years gone through various periods of describing my political philosophy as communist, anarcho- communist, anarchist, libertarian.... there is just too much damned confusion about these terms, from both within and outside. But I do think that the whole money thing is a bit of a red herring, anarchism has always been about property and production not money. (cont...)
23discordians 2 years ago
I am also reminded of Humboldt (I think) who talked about a society which recognised humanitys innate desire to be creative and ability to persue these creative desires in a productive manner as the basis for a "free society".
If hoffer is right in his skepticism of the "creativity of the ordinary man" (as seems to be suggested by your reading of him in this video, though I have not read him myself) I can see no argument for anarchism.... I won't be giving up hope just yet though!
23discordians 2 years ago
Thanks for the astute insights. Agreed
Professoranton 2 years ago
Ina free society (free of state intervention)so long as there is a need for indirect exchange there will be money. And I dont think we will stop needing indirect exchange any time soon lol.
Also, speakin of anarchism is silly. Its to vague. There are lots of schools of anarchism. In a anarcho capitalist society there would certainly still be money.
spawk1993 2 years ago 4
Here, here. Great observations :)
Professoranton 2 years ago
idk, a lot of the stuff you described from brainwashing to 'proving yourself' to little social automatism to soul raping to slave drivers i find are symptomatic of money obsessed societies- for some reason sick societies, when confronted with an alternative lifestyle, seem to project there current ills on the alternative lifestyle, and go "well it'll be worse over there!", like this guy your talking about.
MeursaultBatemen 2 years ago
id be a little more wary of an anarchist who isnt familiar with emma goldman- but i really dont think theres much cause to be wary at all in anything else but in jest, you dont need to know of the works of bookchin or goldman to be an anarchist any more then you need to be familiar with dawkins to be an atheist.
MeursaultBatemen 2 years ago
i like the way things work at the rainbow family gatherings. Everyone helps and works/feeds with and for everyone everything else. Sharing, caring. Work is love, love is work. Money is obsolete. Hierarchy is obsolete. Vision instead of money. I think the gatherings are a great example of showing how humans can realize their ultimate self worth. Peace Love Unity Respect PLUR
lysergicaddict 2 years ago
"money is the triumph of scarcity over violence"
niklas luhmann
Maikl71 2 years ago 2
Luhmann is brilliant. This is shrewd, sagacious. Thanks:
Dewey: "he best is the enemy of the better,"
Professoranton 2 years ago
A wise man once said that having money in your pocket is like having a third testicle.
That is all.
RadicalAwesomeness 2 years ago 2
You don't have to identify me as anonymous.
I'll make you a video reply a bit later today.
CoffeesIsBack 2 years ago
The african pygmies are one of the oldest civilizations on the earth. The are pure anarchists. They do not permit rule making. So they have never developed any specialized activities.
theosophers 2 years ago
I don't think it's a matter of changing the economic/political system as much as it is a kind of grassroots change that needs to take place.
I look at society as being largely fractal (The part resembles the whole.) and right now we're chugging right along with our current materialistic form of capitalism, buying up whatever crap they're hawking in the media.
We've invented a meaningless purpose. I think we need to shift our priority to exploration and the development of USEFUL technology.
Monolith1618 2 years ago 2
Not only that but creativity/art as well. The problem with that is not everyone cares to be creative. (What's Marijuana for again?)
Useful technology... I'm not going to reinvent the wheel. Terence McKenna said it better than I ever could...
"We are going to turn the world upside down. Your science is going to be shown up for what it is; Nothing more than a pleasant metaphor usefully extrapolated into the production of toys for healthy children." - Terence Mckenna
Monolith1618 2 years ago 4
amen to that bit about creativity having no automatic recognition and that it cannot be truly measured. its a reality that makes it difficult for working artists who constantly have to work around the constraint of client based (society) standards and managing, somehow, to not end up becoming broke push-overs devoid of the creativity that once drove them to do what they (used to love to) do. ahh well. broad topic. but i do look forward to more
katerinabonvora 2 years ago
This made me think of the flaws in a lot of social contract philosophy. Hobbes is as flawed as Marx, for example.
Another EXCELLENT video!
2bsirius 2 years ago 2
very interesting indeed. hope to hear more about this, discussions/responses. i'm wondering about some of these things myself
katerinabonvora 2 years ago
Excellent video!
McGarnicle13 2 years ago
Very interesting. I have to admit, I have never heard about this Author.
I will get this Book for my Library.
allymetoo 2 years ago