Jesus wasn't a pacifist: "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. "For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household." You are correct that he is merciful but still there are times to fight, especially when there are idiots who would kill you simply for being an "infidel"
@ikaninjau2 "Continued" Jesus was merciful and valued a strangers life higher than his own but still he would have fought given the proper circumstance.
if jesus is god and gods a pacifist no one would have died in the bible due to him..he is no pacifist.the human jesus if there was one perhaps was..but the god of war from the old testament and the one they made up after jesus is a war monger...they make upo excuses saying he told others to do it so it wasnt him ..well revelation says hes going to do alot of slaying so they cant use that excuse.
You hit the nail right on the head. It's all about the intention of doing anything. What is the intention of owning a gun. I'm battleling that decision right now. You are right in everything you say. It's so hard to make that decision. The will of God, or our will be done.
u my favorite christian man, and that makes 1! well actually i have had several christian friends over my life, and worked, lived beside some ok ones, but it feels like i am one of very few not specificaly not spreading an insane religous pannic cancer about the world. or atleast the us.it is like people are ready willing and dam EGEAR to bring the end times personaly. i knew a kid whom was beaten by a christian baseball team with the bats and lost teeth because he had a maralyn mansion shirt.
I'm not sure how a Christian can come up with a situation like that. In order to do that, you have to be afraid of other people (your brothers and sisters).
Also, just owning a gun is not even Christian. Why did you get it? Because if you had to, you would kill a person with it. You tell yourself that if someone held your family hostage, you would kill another person. Remember "though shall not kill"? Jesus never said "hide in your home and wait for someone to attack you..."
@Longover1986 Any Christian who wants to argue with me, first ask yourself this... when the guy in the video describes the situation, do you (A) feel afraid and say "I need a gun to protect my family"? or (B) realize that there are people like this hypothetical robber who are down on their luck, needing to steal, and they are probably not as well off as you. Again, that robber is your brother and should open your home and heart to him.
these current christian beliefs are pagan from the start... few churches on this planet can actually show any signs of GOD anywhere around them... so what difference does it make about weather or not they follow HIS word or man ways... the temple of YAH is the soul and has nothing to do with any religion no matter what it calls itself... the APOSTLE'S of scripture did not refer to themselves as christians, that comes from men... so christians should just follow their preacher and shut up...
@TheWatchmen001 You have a good point. All Christians should use Jesus as a role model. I do not call myself Christian anymore because of the disgust I have for some of the following: (a) Christian support for any war (b) Christian support using guns for self-defense (c) Christian hostility towards gays, other races, other religions, etc... Not sure what to call myself, but I'm just a guy who discovered that Jesus was on to something with how he lived.
@Longover1986 the real point of it is that, ppl calling themselves godly ppl have no clue of what they are doing to ppl that are out in the world and never heard of JESUS... when a new person goes to a church, then they get bombed with all sorts of rituals that the church claims to be about god... YAH says come as you are, the soul of man is the candle of the YAH, love thy neighbor as thy self , church ppl better wake up, soon... it has nothing to do with a denomination, its about your soul...
@Longover1986 but, defending my family is something else entirely, the scripture says that he who doesn't defend his family is worse than an infidel, it also says to have yourself a sword for defending your family... i dont agree with going to war because of the reasons we get, i think the wars we are in right now will cost us dearly do to the innocent blood of men, women, and children that has been shed due to wanting to get some oil... next
@Longover1986 but, todays christian values have nothing to do with scripture... the church now days is a puppet for politicians to get their ideas brought out and get elected so they can screw everyone some more... the entire system in the US is set up as a pagan roman system... we have judgement on the way Ezekiel 38,39 the country of unwalled villages, that's US, so that tells me, HE is not playing and ppl will not stop blaming each other and judging each other and just pray to be ready...
@Longover1986 some day when ppl begin to realize they have been lied to and the preachers and politicians taking these collections from ppl, then all hell will break loose. one that i'm looking for is when, ppl are not taken away to some happy place before tribulation such as we have never seen, and ppl will be asking those preachers, why didn't GOD come take me away, why do i have to live in this? more ppl will fall away at this time than any other.. get ready, cause it will be worse than ever
Luke 22:36 "even if you have to sell your outer garment get a sword" -Jesus. Jesus never said to sit there and be slaughtered like a jellyfish. You have every right under god to defend yourself. A gun is the modern day sword. It is ok to defend your life and your loved ones. In fact the bible says "he that does not defend his own family is worse than an infidel" God put quills on a porcupine, horns on a gazelle. jesus never said to be a victim.
@bubber25 There's a difference between "being a victim" and, as per the example, giving the robber some food or what have you and sending him on his way.
@5thWatcher oh of course give the robber some food. But if his mal intent is to rape your wife, kill you. Or other vicious things (its 2011 people are meaner than ever) you have every right to defence. But sitting there covering your face and saying sir yes sir ill do whatever you want! is not what god intends his followers to do. After all God is named Jehovah of armies and throughout the bible god has approved of force to save lives and rescue people. David carried a sling, a gun in his day
This is yet another reason why being Christian is NOT easy. Turning the other cheek is incredibly difficult. For one you must humble yourself to do so and second because there is a chance that you will be hurt or even die. The gunman could easily kill you (though he could kill you even if you try to stop him.) and who would want that? Heck even Jesus himself didn't want to die. However he knew that it had to be done. True Christianity is one of sacrifice. But sacrifice is never easy to make.
@TheXiantruth I think it is sort of crazy that Right-wing people can consider themselves Christians. I've seen is a group of people who usually agree that (1) we should give less or nothing to the poor (lower class) (2) own guns. I'm not saying that Right-wing people are "bad". All I'm saying is that it doesn't make sense to call yourself Christian unless you are willing to give the shirt off your back to a homeless man, give your food to the poor, and LOVE every single person on this planet.
@Longover1986 I agree with most of what you say. You're just unrealistic when you say that Christians should not call themselves "Christians" unless they are perfect. The term "Christian" is a term that came into being several decades after Christ's resurrection. If you will look in the Book of Acts, disciples of Jesus were simply called "followers of the Way." Not "the Way" themselves. But followers of "the Way." Likewise, "Christians" are SUPPOSED to be followers of Jesus.Some very poorly.
ya but if thier poor give him your stuff but if. if its a survival situation thats differnt.
and you the the robber probley would did this or the robber probley woulda did that..
but ive seen youtube videos were the store owner did everything the robber told him to do and he still put a bullet in his back while he was on his knees!
but ive also seen a video where this arab kid warned his dad with his eyes and his dad slid and shot at the robber already shootin at him( /w a 12 gauge) and LIVED
LOL Turn the other cheek read the beatitudes cant get more pacifist than that!
Oh man these people who calls themselves a christian is a liar! Look i used to be a christian and this is one of the reasons why i am not a christian anymore!
Oh yeah a couple days two broke in to a mans house raped his wife and his two daughters then tied his daughters to a burn and burned them alive!
Where was JESUS! HMMMMMMMM! I do not trust Jesus in those circumstances
LOL Turn the other cheek read the beatitudes cant get more pacifist than that!
Oh man these people who calls themselves a christian is a liar! Look i used to be a christian and this is one of the reasons why i am not a christian anymore!
Oh yeah a couple days two broke in to a mans house raped his wife and his two daughters then tied his daughters to a burn and burned them alive!
Where was JESUS! HMMMMMMMM! I do not trust Jesus in those circumstances
LOL Turn the other cheek read the beatitudes cant get more pacifist than that!
Oh man these people who calls themselves a christian is a liar! Look i used to be a christian and this is one of the reasons why i am not a christian anymore!
Oh yeah a couple days two broke in to a mans house raped his wife and his two daughters then tied his daughters to a burn and burned them alive!
he didn't walk in on her. some ppl brought her to him because they wanted to test him to see what he would say. He had mercy. God is saying have mercy not let ppl walk on you. What about the wars in the Bible? Remember the battle of Jericho and the war with moses holding up his hands? When he dropped them they'd loose so ppl held them up. Jesus is the ALMIGHTY.. he's not some scared little man. He is God. Oh, and Armagedon. Of course he's already won because he rose from the dead and is alive.
As an atheist, I do have to say, despite the differences in our world view, you would be one of those Christians who knows his own position well enough to make it sound sane. One of these is a good friend of mine, a Catholic in fact. I really would like to see people on the inside of the world's religions going out of their way to spread a message like what you seem to be doing here. Essentially that regardless of what potential exists for backward and evil ways in the text (it is from another
@lazerbeam134 era) and look at the ideas that are forward thinking for its time. It is undeniable that the Bible teaches hate, but it is equally undeniable that it teaches to love. I have read it and know that it is open to interpretation. I rage against the common interpretation you see, the one that promotes violence hatred and bigotry. I still don't want any part of religion, or gods, but that's who I am. If those who need it in their lives find a way to coexist peacefully, I will be happy.
At least TWO of Jesus' disciples were armed with swords the whole time they were with Jesus. He never tells them to get rid of them but rather ' If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one". Hmmmm. Guess Jesus would disagree with you there 5th watcher.
I would also like to add that there is nothing wrong with deterring or physically protecting your property. God doesn't want you to just surrender everything to the first thug that comes along. The idea that "oh he's probably desperate" doesn't fly man. You are well within your rights as a law abiding citizen and as a devout Catholic to protect your life and your property.
Has it occurred to you that people (like me) own guns because they're fun to shoot? Or that people hunt with them? Or compete in competitions with them? I agree that you are never justified in killing someone (except in self defense), but that is no reason to not own a gun. And I say self defense is the exception because it is. You are the one deluding yourself if you think you don't have the right to life. And to fight for your life. God gave you life, you defend it until He calls.
God will not appear to Warmongers. You must be a pacifist. Was Jesus a Warmonger? A pacifist is the opposite of Warmonger. God works in mysterious ways. The evil will kill the evil. he who draws the sword, is killed by the sword. The Timothean Religion is gun free.
So if someone steals something from me, as the Bible says I am not to demand it back.... So If I try to chase the thief and get my stuff back - I am sinning....
Correct. The idea is that if someone is desperate enough to stoop to stealing, they probably need the money/thing. It is easy to imagine yourself being able to overcome the urge to steal, but try having no money or support for weeks and months on end. I have never robbed anyone, personally, but there have been times when the temptation has come to me, and it's always been when I was so in need of even basic necessities that it felt like about the only option that could get me a meal.
@5thwatcher, alright but that doesn't answer my question of, Am I sinning if I were to report to the police that a thief stole something from me, b/c that would be demanding it back.
I guess that depends on how you look at it. If disobeying the commands of Jesus is considered a sin, then I guess it would be, but he doesn't expressly call it a sin. If I had to guess, I'd say it's not a sin but that if you are a christian, you should do that in order to emulate Christ.
Just so Im clear. You believe that if a woman is going to be raped and she owns a gun she shouldn't use it. Or she shouldn't have it in the first place because she's not showing faith in christ? Im not saying that's your argument but some christians believe that. The gun is not the issue. A person with evil desires will do evil but a good man with or without a gun will do good. So I don't believe it's a sin to own a gun.
@5thWatcher I'd say the most important reason for not resisting him is not a moral one, but because by doing so you've just raised the stakes and endangered everyone's lives. Your widescreen TV is not worth a visit to the funeral home.
Of course if his intent is to kill your family, it's your duty to resist, but 99% of the time that's not the case and the purpose of him being armed is just to scare you into being passive, not to actually hurt anyone.
So if a guy says to you, give me your wife, daughters,and some lotion, you will give it to him! I will give him something, free hollow point bullets to the chest area.
What if the home invader says give me lotion,a towel, a sandwich,and ten minutes with your wife? Would Jesus(pbuh) agree to these demands? I know for a fact that defending your family is 100% correct and if that means harming the invader, than so be it.
I suggest you strap your self with a semi-auto WASR 10 AK, its cheaper than an AR15 and packs a killer 7.62x39 round. If you want to give a home invader a 10 minute headstart, then count on the cops. IF you want to have protection in a seconds notice, get a gun.
How pacifist is this, Luke 19:27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and kill them in front of me.'" Or how about Luke 12:49,"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!
Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
Matthew 10:34 - "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword"
The guy breaking in is on Meth. Protecting your family is not forbidden in the bible. Your statistics are untrue and unfounded..
He was a pacifist. Not to be confused with a passive-ist. He was an anti violent advocate definitely. However, he was quite assertive, brave, daring and boldly (to a suicidal degree) honest.
Christians invade nations and give a bible. Jesus never told his disciples to buy swords! It's funny how in my bible that verse is taken out. But in some bibles it's still their. Thanx for this video 5 stars bro. I like your hair it's hecktik.
Theives break in looking for STUFF, not confrontation. Statistics do not prove you are more likely to shoot your family. WOW!
Jesus quoted Exodus in Matt 24:43 and Luke 12:39 saying if a man knew the hour an intruder was coming he would stop him. Mosaic law said that shalt not MURDER. By definition the Hebrew "murder" is kill with prior intent, not defense.
Paul had no qualms hiding behind the entire Roman army fighting to save his life. Base your arguments on scripture from now on.
Brown, please top ripping Mt. 24:43 and Lk. 12:39 out of context. Jesus is talking about the second coming "like a thief in the night." He's telling us to be ready for it, he isn't talking about whether or not to kill the intruder. How can you call people to argue from scripture when you do nothing of the sort?
Fine, ignore every other scripture that discusses this matter. You still don't have the authority to throw away the old testament teachings or the new ones that validate protecting one's life. It doesn't matter, if you want to sit there and let yourself be shot you will still go to heaven so do what you want with your life.
I'm not claiming any authority. If these passages that exist are so compelling, then why did every church father prior to Constantine, including Ignatius of Antioch (who was a disciple of the Apostle John) speak in support of pacifism? Also, what do you truly think is the purpose of Martydom?
Meh, I don't agree with this totally. The commandment is "thou shalt not murder". In the Jewish mindset, killing somebody in self defense is not considered a sin.
Now, I agree that killing someone, say a thief, only to protect your things is wrong. However, if somebody is pointing a gun at a family member's head, I'm going to take some action. I may not kill that person, but I'll try to stop him. I think it's a Christian duty to stop injustice.
Remember, it was Jesus who picked up a weapon (a scourge) and violently drove the moneychangers from the temple. The same Bible that says Thou shalt not kill also says there is a time to kill. (Ecclesiastes 3:3)
Funny you brought up the part about Jesus speaking of coats. You craftily left out the part where Jesus told his disciples to sell their cloaks and buy swords.
You're ignoring the context of the story. Later on in that same story in Luke, Jesus also says "put your sword back in its place, for he who draws the sword shall die by the sword." Jesus' followers accepted persecution, and even martyrdom, peacefully.
The idea is that self-defense is acceptable as only a last resort. Nowhere in the scriptures does Jesus ever resort to it.
I'm not against keeping a weapon for self-defense. But looking for justification for it in the Bible is pointless, because you can find justification for just about ANYTHING in the Bible.
Men having multiple wives, slavery, murder, etc. There's a verse for almost anything you can think of.
The point is to get at the real substance of the stories found in the Bible.
Because Jesus was mortal too. Someone can't DIE unless they are mortal. So I don't understand the need for that particular comparison between Jesus and his disciples. Furthermore, his disciples faced martyrdom peacefully, even though Roman persecution of Christians was mostly an issue of the Romans questioning Christians' loyalty to the empire, rather than an issue of religious freedom, but that's another story entirely.
Murder is pretty cut and dry. If you kill someone or something, it's murder. Self-defense or not. No one has the right to play God.
I hate war, I hate capital punishment, and I hate meat eating. Those are all forms of murder. But honestly, we're straying from the issue at hand here. As I've stated before, I am not against owning a weapon for self-defense. But the issue at hand is what Jesus said, or would say, about the issue.
While I personally WOULD defend my girlfriend from an attacker, even if it did mean killing them (only if absolutely necessary), I don't find justification for this in anything Jesus said. I don't like to speculate on the character of Jesus, and I don't know what he would think of handguns and things like that.
But just earlier this week, in a personal conversation, my own pastor said "We humans, we've created a lot of shit. God didn't create it, we did. God didn't create bombs!"
God gives us the technology, but man must decide on whether it will be used for good or for evil. I believe a gun in your hand would be used for good. Jesus would approve of you using it that way.
If killing in self-defense was murder, then it would be punishable in the same way that murder is in the Bible. However, it is codified and treated differently, as is accidental manslaughter.
Ugh, you can't just say "The Bible". The Bible is made up of so many books, written by so many people, with so many different points of view, and different experiences.
What we are talking about here is very specifically what Jesus himself would say on the matter. That is all.
You can't find scripture in the old testament to back up any claim you make.
Yes, and Jesus, as the purported son of God, would obviously not disagree with God's words. Murder has a definition in the Bible. If you want to redefine it as "any killing" that's fine, but don't expect anyone else to go along with that.
The word Israel means "to wrestle with God." The books of the Bible are littered with stories of the most holy and revered figures in history wrestling with God. A God who, by the way, is portrayed in many different ways throughout the many books of the Bible.
And many people do consider "any killing" to be murder. I don't, but the question here is what Jesus said about it, based on Jesus' words, straight from the Gospels.
Because you can't be the son of God (and also Him at the same time) and disagree with his words without undermining his claim to perfection. For everyone else, disagreeing and struggling with God is fine, but when you claim to God in flesh, there's a bit of an inconsistency in arguing with your own perfect word.
I haven't found a single definition for murder that doesn't at least require intent. As I mentioned before though, it's somewhat odd to assume the son of God would contradict his father
Would you say that the character of God is presented in the same light throughout the entire Bible?
Take the literature in the Bible, and just for a moment, as a thought experiment, remove all of your religions convictions, and just treat it as literature, and nothing more. After doing so, can you honestly say that the character of God seems like the same person/being throughout the entire Bible??
Yes, but I regard his character as insane. However, either way, it's Jesus' problem to square that and stick with it, not mine.
Oh, xobrentox, you seem to have confused me for a Christian. I'm not. I do treat it as literature, but from the standpoint of Jesus, all of God's word remains God's word. If he thought otherwise, he would have called some of the texts heretical. Therefore, the burden is on him to not contradict his "father's" word.
I believe, if the old testament is taken totally literally, Jesus does contradict God's word because what he preached was love. You can find love in the character of God throughout the Bible, but he is also vengeful and selfish at many times; quite the opposite of Jesus.
I wouldn't consider Jesus to be *entirely* unvengeful. For instance, there was a point when he got rather angry and flipped out on a bunch of people for inappropriate use of a temple. I haven't really seen that many instances of the God of the Bible being flat-out selfish, so much as petty. But here's the problem: if Jesus is God made flesh, how is it that he contradicts himself and remains perfect?
So what, do all the ones that contradict what Jesus was about get tossed out because they raise uncomfortable questions? What's the point in having a scripture if you pick and choose which parts of it apply?
God doesn't need Jesus to contradict him, he does it himself. I don't take the scripture literally in every way, I take what I can get out of every story and try and live my life based on some of the lessons to be found there. You can find laws about having multiple wives or slavery in the Bible. I don't agree with any of that.
Yes I do believe that Jesus was God in the flesh, but I don't believe that means it has to be the God portrayed in the books selected to be in the bible.
So, do you not believe in a perfect God? And can you explain why you think Jesus was God in flesh but at the same time not necessarily the God he claimed to be?
I believe in a perfect God, but that doesn't mean that every single book, CHOSEN BY MAN to be in the Bible absolutely HAS to be taken totally literally. Plus, the entire old testament wasn't even assembled together as "one work" at the time Jesus was alive. In addition to that, to try and nitpick at every little detail in Jesus' message pretty much causes people to miss the point entirely. Jesus was trying to reach people. It was God attempting to have a personal relationship with his people.
Okay, so which books do you think don't make the cut? I mean, most of the problem books for Christians (like Leviticus and Deuteronomy and Exodus) were well-established within the Jewish tradition. That's where you find all of things that codify murder, manslaughter, killing in self-defense, and their respective punishments. Now, if you don't buy into those, you kind of remove the foundation of Judaism, on which the God of Christ is based.
The laws found in said books were intended for people at the time. As I said before, there are laws in the old testament concerning multiple wives, slavery, etc.
Christianity is based in Judaism in a sense, because Jesus himself was a Jew. But I maintain that Jesus would have came to earth and did what he did regardless of what religious traditions preceded him.
And even by the time Jesus came around, the Jewish faith had splintered into twelve separate tribes, and was hardly unified.
Because saying that the Jewish religion is essential to the existence of Jesus is like saying that I only would have been born if my parents were Christian. I still would have been born, my parents just wouldn't be religious. Jesus would have just been something other than a Jew.
But according to everything Jesus' words were built on, he had to be born a Jew. The coming of the Messiah was promised as part of the old covenant, and it was promised to come of a direct line from Adam. If Jesus was born to a non-Jewish family, he wouldn't have fulfilled the requirements of being the savior as his own God put forth. That's what I'm talking about.
You seem like you're concerned exclusively with the text of the Bible, as if we're supposed to believe that God himself penned the entire thing cover to cover.
If it's taken literally, it contradicts itself. If it's taken as imperfect, than it becomes useless. I take a third approach to it and just try and get the message out of it. There is so much more to the Bible than just trying to be super obedient to God and punching your ticket to Heaven.
So, does that mean you don't like Matthew 5:18 as well?
There's kind of a problem with your third approach, one that I think you can see in other Christians (especially the extreme ones): if you just shoot for a general message, it's also meaningless, because with a sufficient amount of subtraction of texts within the Bible, you can make the book say virtually anything, even in the New Testament.
I don't see how any message is meaningless. How is "treat everyone with love and respect and live the best life you can" meaningless?
I think that serves humanity much better than setting a list of rules ever could. We try that every day with our governments and our laws, and see how well that turns out?
Well, first off, I've never found that particular message in the Bible. Especially the respect bit.
So far, the systems of rules we've managed to come up with have kept us from destroying ourselves, despite the various mutually unfriendly nations that have managed to acquire horrifically powerful weaponry, so I'd say it's turning out alright.
Well than all that tells me is that you've not actually tried to digest anything that Jesus ever talked about.
Rape, murder, armed robbery, assault and battery, drug trafficking, prostitution; these are all terrible things that are accruing on a daily basis. So much for a set of rules being effective.
Or rather, that I'm aware that he was more about "everyone should love and serve God faithfully", than he was "treat everyone with love and respect and live the best life you can". Jesus was a nice guy, but his message wasn't THAT feel-good.
Yep, and these actions also find punishments applied to them. And of course, the philosophy you've espoused hasn't really done any better at preventing these societal ills.
Jesus was teaching people how to live with each other, and how to be good people. I think you should read "Into The Fire" by Dr. Jim Cook, the whole message is spelled out really well in that book.
Yeah, and those punishments, like the set of rules they go along with, aren't very effective for deterring criminal behavior.
People already knew how to live with each other and be "good" people. That's why there was a functioning civilization for Jesus to exist in.
No? Prison time doesn't keep down imprisonable offenses at all? And, given all the people that aren't out committing that sort of behavior, your argument doesn't seem to be that functional.
No, I would say it doesn't. Not completely anyway.
People who refrain from committing crimes do so because they are good people. I would say our overcrowded prisons are proof enough that a simple set of rules doesn't do much for keeping crime in check. Perhaps to a point, but not entirely. Whereas if everyone lived with love, there would be nobody committing acts of murder, rape, etc.
Really? I could certainly believe that of some (and even many) of them, but on the whole, fear of consequences seems to drive much decision-making.
Our overcrowded prisons keep the criminals in prison. Once inside prison, they are no longer free to commit crimes against the populace. Here's a question for you: how much do you think the rate of crime would rise if we didn't punish those who broke the law? That seems to be the most fair way to gauge the effectiveness of our criminal laws.
I think this would have to actually be gauged on somewhat of a curve, because there's really two types of crime; petty, and violent. I think if we did away with punishment for all crimes, petty crime would probably increase, but I don't think that violent crimes (rape, murder, arson, etc) would increase all that much.
But my point is that I think people's own morals and values are more effective at guiding them than laws and punishment are. Look at all the people who still do illegal things.
So, all the gang members that could then commit crime without punishment would just back off on killing anyone they wanted? That's...naive.
If you believe that, then how do you account for the number of Christians in prison? Personally, I think a combination of the two is the best, since it's rather foolish to expect either one to get the job done on its own.
***If people lived with love*** there wouldn't be gang members. It's like you're just picking out parts of what I'm saying. Yes, laws are effective in a society where people ignore their hearts and live for greed and power. But if our world was a better place, if people lived with love and honesty, as Jesus did, the world would be a better place.
Sorry, I was assuming you were dealing in a hypothetical that could actually happen. Universal embrace of a philosophy just isn't in human nature. A scenario that depends on all the disparate peoples of the world having the same beliefs just isn't really workable. It's like communism: nice in theory, but it just doesn't work out when you introduce human beings into the mix.
I still maintain that personal morals and beliefs have more of an effect on a person than laws do. People still drive drunk. They know it's illegal, and potentially very harmful or fatal, but they chose to do it anyway.
However, perhaps a society without any rules at all would eventually just destroy itself. //shrug
Wars, murders, rape, genocide, prostitution, that's not "just people being people," that sucks.
I don't believe that too many murders are committed by people who actually believe what they are doing is wrong. You can sit there and go "they know it's wrong" but I would say most people who murder find some way to justify it. Even something petty, like they owed them money, or they were on their turf.
Love, people coming together to donate money and resources to the victims of natural disasters, parents trying to raise children to be safe and happy, men and women putting their lives on the line for complete strangers. That's the flip side of people being people. The good comes with the bad.
Then you may be unfamiliar with the term "crime of passion". Certainly, many people do what you describe, but you'll find plenty of people committing crimes that they'll almost instantly regret.
That's true. I only wish people could live THAT side of the coin instead of the other side of it. I've accepted that the world sucks sometimes, but I still love my life and the people in it, and I give thanks for it every day.
I have heard of "crime of passion".
What did this whole conversation start from again?? I honestly don't remember, lol.
Crimes of passion are some of the most common murders. As your probably know, they occur when an individual commits a crime without planning it out in advance, and does so largely due to an extreme emotional state. It's actually a huge chunk of murders.
lol, I believe it came from our discussion of whether or not a professed "son of God" can have a philosophy radically different from said God without automatically invalidating one or both of their claims to perfection.
The only books I concern myself with in any LITERAL sense are Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. There is so much substance to what Jesus is saying, over analyzing every last word in the Gospels, or the rest of the Bible, is pointless; you miss out on the real message.
If we implemented the same level of scrutiny that we do to the Bible to every other historical text, we would be left with basically zero knowledge of the ancient world.
Might wanna concern yourself with Matthew 5:18 then, since it doesn't exactly lend itself well to your belief that the laws of God are transitory or limited to some people at some times. Rather, you see the various contradictory messages (which really shouldn't be expected out of perfection).
Except that many other historical texts have contemporary accounts backing them up (not so, with the Bible, despite its length).
you stupid christians amaze me. your arguments blow me away,bible quoting weirdo. what about this: talk about jesus when you have proof of the reason we are here, not some stupid outdated conclusion full of historical loopholes.
and thou shall not kill is correct....however God said murder is sheading of innocent blood not a criminal...God whiped out millions because of sin, (the flood, sodom and gomorra etc )....many times God ordered Isrial to destroy others with the sword because of evel....
why did peter have a sword on when Jesus was in the garden to be taken away...remember when he cut off the ear of the gaurd...peter was one of the closest persons to Jesus, so why would Jesus let him wear a sword....Jesus is about mercy but a life threatening crime against you is different....and when Jesus returns as stated in REV. He will return as a warrior to conquere evel...balance man, balance...
Good comment, bikerbadass41. Sorry to have to clarify my reply (I had to delete those old ones). As was common for Jews before, during, and especially after Jesus' time, the sword was used for protection against wild animals and robbers during travels. Even Jesus disciples wouldve been justified in continuing this practice long after Jesus rose from the dead, appeared to his disciples once more, spoke with them, and finally sent them on their journey of spreading the word of God.
Jesus had a lot to say about Hypocrits, and acknowledging both that jesus is your lord and that jesus wouldn't want you to("throw the first stone" is pharose level hypocracy. The "i'm a flawed human" argument doesn't quite fit, you could excuse any crime on that basis. It's empty to say you believe in jesus, and then not follow his teachings. To look at the plank in my own eye, I don't always folow my principles, but i'm don't tell people to join me in breaking them as you did in vigilante.
Weather Jesus was a pascifist depends on how literally you take Jesus's role in the Book of Revelations, and weather you think jesus was the same person as the god of the old testement. He certainly argued for pascifism. Even if he wasn't a pascifist with regards to sin, he certainly expected humans to be. I would love to live by jesus's judge not philosophy, as your analysis of the burglar story shows every situation is hugely complicated. I'd die before kiling probably, and I'm athiest :p
the incident that got jesus arrested was a violent one. he tossed tables and cages as a violent expression of anger toward what the temple had become. No one was hurt but if i saw God have a temper tantrum id get out of the way too. Pacifist , NO but also does not want any one to come to harm. his purpose is our salvation not demise.
the USAF has MX missiles so that people dont come to harm. most gun owners do not have a gun so they can shoot some one. In Luke things were getting Bad and Jesus was about to go away for 3 days and could not be there to fix what could go wrong. there for it is better they appear able to defend them selfs. i do agree with you in principle, MY worldly things are not worth some ones life. but it is stupid to go unprotected, im fairly sure Jesus is ok with that he said so in luke.
clearly not read all the scriptures. Luke: 35-37 Jesus told the disciples to sell there garments to buy a sword during the last supper. however he did rebuke Peter for using said sword to cut the Roman guard's ear off in the very next passage. it was clear to me Jesus's intent here was not violence but to prevent violence. some times threat of force is a deterrent. mercy as you stated is much more important to Jesus and tho, healing the guard was a larger concern to him than his own safety.
Israel Fights the Remaining Canaanites 1 After the death of Joshua, the Israelites asked the LORD, "Who will be the first to go up and fight for us against the Canaanites?" 2 The LORD answered, "Judah is to go; I have given the land into their hands." 3 Then the men of Judah said to the Simeonites their brothers, "Come up with us into the territory allotted to us, to fight against the Canaanites. We in turn will go with you into yours." So the Simeonites went with them.
Just FYI, my actual opinion on this is different than I think Jesus' would have been. However it is worth noting that if you own a gun in your house and use it for home defense you are far more likely to shoot one of your own family members.
I'd think even competitive shooters would bulge in the pants just a little if they found themselves in a situation where they could use a gun in order to achieve some perceived saving-deed.
Tell me more about this "serious sin on your soul". I often hear that all sins are equal in God's eyes but I think its kind of a strange concept. How can a liar be just as guilty as a murderer?
I would say your use of the adultery point isn't the best one out there to support your argument due to the context of both being very different, but I will echo the non-killing and the sacrifice of material objects. However, I would say that the defense of your family, for the single purpose of your family is in fact, a reason to have a gun if you are willing to take the risks. I will also agree however, that it isn't something you can say that Jesus will support.
Jesus wasn't a pacifist: "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. "For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household." You are correct that he is merciful but still there are times to fight, especially when there are idiots who would kill you simply for being an "infidel"
ikaninjau2 1 month ago
@ikaninjau2 "Continued" Jesus was merciful and valued a strangers life higher than his own but still he would have fought given the proper circumstance.
ikaninjau2 1 month ago
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Yes, Jesus lives or has lived in the Pacific.
True Story !!
Soveraine 1 month ago
if christians shouldn't be 100% peaceful, then whats the point.....
kuruantigenic 3 months ago
if jesus is god and gods a pacifist no one would have died in the bible due to him..he is no pacifist.the human jesus if there was one perhaps was..but the god of war from the old testament and the one they made up after jesus is a war monger...they make upo excuses saying he told others to do it so it wasnt him ..well revelation says hes going to do alot of slaying so they cant use that excuse.
silverwave00 3 months ago
You hit the nail right on the head. It's all about the intention of doing anything. What is the intention of owning a gun. I'm battleling that decision right now. You are right in everything you say. It's so hard to make that decision. The will of God, or our will be done.
cmpresents 4 months ago
u my favorite christian man, and that makes 1! well actually i have had several christian friends over my life, and worked, lived beside some ok ones, but it feels like i am one of very few not specificaly not spreading an insane religous pannic cancer about the world. or atleast the us.it is like people are ready willing and dam EGEAR to bring the end times personaly. i knew a kid whom was beaten by a christian baseball team with the bats and lost teeth because he had a maralyn mansion shirt.
HolyHogShit 5 months ago
I'm not sure how a Christian can come up with a situation like that. In order to do that, you have to be afraid of other people (your brothers and sisters).
Also, just owning a gun is not even Christian. Why did you get it? Because if you had to, you would kill a person with it. You tell yourself that if someone held your family hostage, you would kill another person. Remember "though shall not kill"? Jesus never said "hide in your home and wait for someone to attack you..."
Longover1986 6 months ago
@Longover1986 Any Christian who wants to argue with me, first ask yourself this... when the guy in the video describes the situation, do you (A) feel afraid and say "I need a gun to protect my family"? or (B) realize that there are people like this hypothetical robber who are down on their luck, needing to steal, and they are probably not as well off as you. Again, that robber is your brother and should open your home and heart to him.
Longover1986 6 months ago
these current christian beliefs are pagan from the start... few churches on this planet can actually show any signs of GOD anywhere around them... so what difference does it make about weather or not they follow HIS word or man ways... the temple of YAH is the soul and has nothing to do with any religion no matter what it calls itself... the APOSTLE'S of scripture did not refer to themselves as christians, that comes from men... so christians should just follow their preacher and shut up...
TheWatchmen001 7 months ago
@TheWatchmen001 You have a good point. All Christians should use Jesus as a role model. I do not call myself Christian anymore because of the disgust I have for some of the following: (a) Christian support for any war (b) Christian support using guns for self-defense (c) Christian hostility towards gays, other races, other religions, etc... Not sure what to call myself, but I'm just a guy who discovered that Jesus was on to something with how he lived.
Longover1986 6 months ago
@Longover1986 the real point of it is that, ppl calling themselves godly ppl have no clue of what they are doing to ppl that are out in the world and never heard of JESUS... when a new person goes to a church, then they get bombed with all sorts of rituals that the church claims to be about god... YAH says come as you are, the soul of man is the candle of the YAH, love thy neighbor as thy self , church ppl better wake up, soon... it has nothing to do with a denomination, its about your soul...
TheWatchmen001 6 months ago
@Longover1986 but, defending my family is something else entirely, the scripture says that he who doesn't defend his family is worse than an infidel, it also says to have yourself a sword for defending your family... i dont agree with going to war because of the reasons we get, i think the wars we are in right now will cost us dearly do to the innocent blood of men, women, and children that has been shed due to wanting to get some oil... next
TheWatchmen001 6 months ago
@Longover1986 but, todays christian values have nothing to do with scripture... the church now days is a puppet for politicians to get their ideas brought out and get elected so they can screw everyone some more... the entire system in the US is set up as a pagan roman system... we have judgement on the way Ezekiel 38,39 the country of unwalled villages, that's US, so that tells me, HE is not playing and ppl will not stop blaming each other and judging each other and just pray to be ready...
TheWatchmen001 6 months ago
@Longover1986 some day when ppl begin to realize they have been lied to and the preachers and politicians taking these collections from ppl, then all hell will break loose. one that i'm looking for is when, ppl are not taken away to some happy place before tribulation such as we have never seen, and ppl will be asking those preachers, why didn't GOD come take me away, why do i have to live in this? more ppl will fall away at this time than any other.. get ready, cause it will be worse than ever
TheWatchmen001 6 months ago
Luke 22:36 "even if you have to sell your outer garment get a sword" -Jesus. Jesus never said to sit there and be slaughtered like a jellyfish. You have every right under god to defend yourself. A gun is the modern day sword. It is ok to defend your life and your loved ones. In fact the bible says "he that does not defend his own family is worse than an infidel" God put quills on a porcupine, horns on a gazelle. jesus never said to be a victim.
bubber25 9 months ago
@bubber25 There's a difference between "being a victim" and, as per the example, giving the robber some food or what have you and sending him on his way.
5thWatcher 8 months ago
@5thWatcher oh of course give the robber some food. But if his mal intent is to rape your wife, kill you. Or other vicious things (its 2011 people are meaner than ever) you have every right to defence. But sitting there covering your face and saying sir yes sir ill do whatever you want! is not what god intends his followers to do. After all God is named Jehovah of armies and throughout the bible god has approved of force to save lives and rescue people. David carried a sling, a gun in his day
bubber25 8 months ago
love the videos bro, respect
Alkhemist10 10 months ago
This is yet another reason why being Christian is NOT easy. Turning the other cheek is incredibly difficult. For one you must humble yourself to do so and second because there is a chance that you will be hurt or even die. The gunman could easily kill you (though he could kill you even if you try to stop him.) and who would want that? Heck even Jesus himself didn't want to die. However he knew that it had to be done. True Christianity is one of sacrifice. But sacrifice is never easy to make.
mrsticky005 10 months ago
excellent video dude.
these right wingers don't take the Bible seriously: you just proved it.
TheXiantruth 11 months ago
@TheXiantruth I think it is sort of crazy that Right-wing people can consider themselves Christians. I've seen is a group of people who usually agree that (1) we should give less or nothing to the poor (lower class) (2) own guns. I'm not saying that Right-wing people are "bad". All I'm saying is that it doesn't make sense to call yourself Christian unless you are willing to give the shirt off your back to a homeless man, give your food to the poor, and LOVE every single person on this planet.
Longover1986 6 months ago
@Longover1986 I agree with most of what you say. You're just unrealistic when you say that Christians should not call themselves "Christians" unless they are perfect. The term "Christian" is a term that came into being several decades after Christ's resurrection. If you will look in the Book of Acts, disciples of Jesus were simply called "followers of the Way." Not "the Way" themselves. But followers of "the Way." Likewise, "Christians" are SUPPOSED to be followers of Jesus.Some very poorly.
TheXiantruth 2 months ago
lol ive seen a video where the guy just walks into the store and entroduces himself with a shot to the store workers FACE!
truejustice1 1 year ago
ya but if thier poor give him your stuff but if. if its a survival situation thats differnt.
and you the the robber probley would did this or the robber probley woulda did that..
but ive seen youtube videos were the store owner did everything the robber told him to do and he still put a bullet in his back while he was on his knees!
but ive also seen a video where this arab kid warned his dad with his eyes and his dad slid and shot at the robber already shootin at him( /w a 12 gauge) and LIVED
truejustice1 1 year ago
Another well done video 5thWatcher. Keep up the great work!
hexusziggurat 1 year ago
LOL Turn the other cheek read the beatitudes cant get more pacifist than that!
Oh man these people who calls themselves a christian is a liar! Look i used to be a christian and this is one of the reasons why i am not a christian anymore!
Oh yeah a couple days two broke in to a mans house raped his wife and his two daughters then tied his daughters to a burn and burned them alive!
Where was JESUS! HMMMMMMMM! I do not trust Jesus in those circumstances
HELL NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
BiGMANJOE32 1 year ago
LOL Turn the other cheek read the beatitudes cant get more pacifist than that!
Oh man these people who calls themselves a christian is a liar! Look i used to be a christian and this is one of the reasons why i am not a christian anymore!
Oh yeah a couple days two broke in to a mans house raped his wife and his two daughters then tied his daughters to a burn and burned them alive!
Where was JESUS! HMMMMMMMM! I do not trust Jesus in those circumstances
hell No Hell No Hell NO HELL NO HELL NO!!!!!
BiGMANJOE32 1 year ago
LOL Turn the other cheek read the beatitudes cant get more pacifist than that!
Oh man these people who calls themselves a christian is a liar! Look i used to be a christian and this is one of the reasons why i am not a christian anymore!
Oh yeah a couple days two broke in to a mans house raped his wife and his two daughters then tied his daughters to a burn and burned them alive!
Where was JESUS!
BiGMANJOE32 1 year ago
LOL Turn the other cheek read the beatitudes cant get more pacifist than that!
Oh man these people who calls themselves a christian is a liar!
BiGMANJOE32 1 year ago
'love your enemy' pretty much seals the deal. the idea of Jesus being anything other than a pacifist is absurd.
sherhak 1 year ago
I agree, I can't imagine Jesus Christ owning a gun. Thanks for the post my friend.
spyguythesamurai 1 year ago
one thing is that God will watch over his ppl. Why would you ask that question. Being merciful doesn't make you a pacifist....
blacksheepgirl 1 year ago
he didn't walk in on her. some ppl brought her to him because they wanted to test him to see what he would say. He had mercy. God is saying have mercy not let ppl walk on you. What about the wars in the Bible? Remember the battle of Jericho and the war with moses holding up his hands? When he dropped them they'd loose so ppl held them up. Jesus is the ALMIGHTY.. he's not some scared little man. He is God. Oh, and Armagedon. Of course he's already won because he rose from the dead and is alive.
blacksheepgirl 1 year ago
we're made in God's image and God don't make no junk. :O)
blacksheepgirl 1 year ago
As an atheist, I do have to say, despite the differences in our world view, you would be one of those Christians who knows his own position well enough to make it sound sane. One of these is a good friend of mine, a Catholic in fact. I really would like to see people on the inside of the world's religions going out of their way to spread a message like what you seem to be doing here. Essentially that regardless of what potential exists for backward and evil ways in the text (it is from another
lazerbeam134 1 year ago
@lazerbeam134 era) and look at the ideas that are forward thinking for its time. It is undeniable that the Bible teaches hate, but it is equally undeniable that it teaches to love. I have read it and know that it is open to interpretation. I rage against the common interpretation you see, the one that promotes violence hatred and bigotry. I still don't want any part of religion, or gods, but that's who I am. If those who need it in their lives find a way to coexist peacefully, I will be happy.
lazerbeam134 1 year ago
At least TWO of Jesus' disciples were armed with swords the whole time they were with Jesus. He never tells them to get rid of them but rather ' If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one". Hmmmm. Guess Jesus would disagree with you there 5th watcher.
Autry29 1 year ago
@Autry29 That was probably because the genocide of Christianity was about to begin.
SuperMalario7 1 year ago
@SuperMalario7 er,I mean attempted genocide.
SuperMalario7 1 year ago
I would also like to add that there is nothing wrong with deterring or physically protecting your property. God doesn't want you to just surrender everything to the first thug that comes along. The idea that "oh he's probably desperate" doesn't fly man. You are well within your rights as a law abiding citizen and as a devout Catholic to protect your life and your property.
xJTF2x 1 year ago
Has it occurred to you that people (like me) own guns because they're fun to shoot? Or that people hunt with them? Or compete in competitions with them? I agree that you are never justified in killing someone (except in self defense), but that is no reason to not own a gun. And I say self defense is the exception because it is. You are the one deluding yourself if you think you don't have the right to life. And to fight for your life. God gave you life, you defend it until He calls.
xJTF2x 1 year ago
God will not appear to Warmongers. You must be a pacifist. Was Jesus a Warmonger? A pacifist is the opposite of Warmonger. God works in mysterious ways. The evil will kill the evil. he who draws the sword, is killed by the sword. The Timothean Religion is gun free.
GoTimothy 1 year ago
@GoTimothy there are so many errors in that line of thinking I don't know where to begin.
Autry29 1 year ago
So if someone steals something from me, as the Bible says I am not to demand it back.... So If I try to chase the thief and get my stuff back - I am sinning....
chrisvda88 1 year ago
Correct. The idea is that if someone is desperate enough to stoop to stealing, they probably need the money/thing. It is easy to imagine yourself being able to overcome the urge to steal, but try having no money or support for weeks and months on end. I have never robbed anyone, personally, but there have been times when the temptation has come to me, and it's always been when I was so in need of even basic necessities that it felt like about the only option that could get me a meal.
5thWatcher 1 year ago
@5thwatcher, alright but that doesn't answer my question of, Am I sinning if I were to report to the police that a thief stole something from me, b/c that would be demanding it back.
chrisvda88 1 year ago
I guess that depends on how you look at it. If disobeying the commands of Jesus is considered a sin, then I guess it would be, but he doesn't expressly call it a sin. If I had to guess, I'd say it's not a sin but that if you are a christian, you should do that in order to emulate Christ.
5thWatcher 1 year ago
Just so Im clear. You believe that if a woman is going to be raped and she owns a gun she shouldn't use it. Or she shouldn't have it in the first place because she's not showing faith in christ? Im not saying that's your argument but some christians believe that. The gun is not the issue. A person with evil desires will do evil but a good man with or without a gun will do good. So I don't believe it's a sin to own a gun.
Autry29 1 year ago
@5thWatcher I'd say the most important reason for not resisting him is not a moral one, but because by doing so you've just raised the stakes and endangered everyone's lives. Your widescreen TV is not worth a visit to the funeral home.
Of course if his intent is to kill your family, it's your duty to resist, but 99% of the time that's not the case and the purpose of him being armed is just to scare you into being passive, not to actually hurt anyone.
tSp289 1 year ago
here is the problem. there is 2 sides to God
God is loving and mericful
But that is alot of verse about Gods wrath and judgement - just asked that westboro baptist church.
badpanda84 2 years ago
So if a guy says to you, give me your wife, daughters,and some lotion, you will give it to him! I will give him something, free hollow point bullets to the chest area.
knowthetruth1492 2 years ago
People are not possessions.
xobrentox 2 years ago
What if the home invader says give me lotion,a towel, a sandwich,and ten minutes with your wife? Would Jesus(pbuh) agree to these demands? I know for a fact that defending your family is 100% correct and if that means harming the invader, than so be it.
knowthetruth1492 2 years ago
I suggest you strap your self with a semi-auto WASR 10 AK, its cheaper than an AR15 and packs a killer 7.62x39 round. If you want to give a home invader a 10 minute headstart, then count on the cops. IF you want to have protection in a seconds notice, get a gun.
knowthetruth1492 2 years ago
How pacifist is this, Luke 19:27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and kill them in front of me.'" Or how about Luke 12:49,"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!
knowthetruth1492 2 years ago
Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
Matthew 10:34 - "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword"
The guy breaking in is on Meth. Protecting your family is not forbidden in the bible. Your statistics are untrue and unfounded..
sootch00 2 years ago
are you forgetting about his rage-filled attack in the temple?
nomilkforsanta 2 years ago
I know you made this more than 2 years ago, but of the Gun issue a knife is far more dangerous, ask any cop or soldier why, You'll be amazed!
Retribution belongs to God, This is why I don't kill faggots even though the Bible says to do so! Aids will do it for me!
kryckeestrooff 2 years ago
But AIDS doesn't target only homosexuals...
Bloodninjapirate 2 years ago
I could find verse that support both side of the arguement.
For instance Matthew 10:34 "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword"
The thing about the bible is that everything is in the bible.
badpanda84 2 years ago
Unfortunately, this is in the context of bringing conflict rather peace, it doesn't say that violence is good, or that owning a weapon is good.
Bloodninjapirate 2 years ago
God would approve of killing an attacker use your LogiK.
PrinceLogik 2 years ago
i agree with you hear gun ownership comes from paranoia and lack of faith
snubbs741 2 years ago
He was a pacifist. Not to be confused with a passive-ist. He was an anti violent advocate definitely. However, he was quite assertive, brave, daring and boldly (to a suicidal degree) honest.
cymbeli 2 years ago
viewpoint is off?!? can't see how you honestly can support this.
iamundergrace 2 years ago
Christians invade nations and give a bible. Jesus never told his disciples to buy swords! It's funny how in my bible that verse is taken out. But in some bibles it's still their. Thanx for this video 5 stars bro. I like your hair it's hecktik.
ilkcans 2 years ago 2
Theives break in looking for STUFF, not confrontation. Statistics do not prove you are more likely to shoot your family. WOW!
Jesus quoted Exodus in Matt 24:43 and Luke 12:39 saying if a man knew the hour an intruder was coming he would stop him. Mosaic law said that shalt not MURDER. By definition the Hebrew "murder" is kill with prior intent, not defense.
Paul had no qualms hiding behind the entire Roman army fighting to save his life. Base your arguments on scripture from now on.
brown55061 2 years ago
Brown, please top ripping Mt. 24:43 and Lk. 12:39 out of context. Jesus is talking about the second coming "like a thief in the night." He's telling us to be ready for it, he isn't talking about whether or not to kill the intruder. How can you call people to argue from scripture when you do nothing of the sort?
ericmalone 2 years ago
Fine, ignore every other scripture that discusses this matter. You still don't have the authority to throw away the old testament teachings or the new ones that validate protecting one's life. It doesn't matter, if you want to sit there and let yourself be shot you will still go to heaven so do what you want with your life.
brown55061 2 years ago
I'm not claiming any authority. If these passages that exist are so compelling, then why did every church father prior to Constantine, including Ignatius of Antioch (who was a disciple of the Apostle John) speak in support of pacifism? Also, what do you truly think is the purpose of Martydom?
ericmalone 2 years ago
Meh, I don't agree with this totally. The commandment is "thou shalt not murder". In the Jewish mindset, killing somebody in self defense is not considered a sin.
Now, I agree that killing someone, say a thief, only to protect your things is wrong. However, if somebody is pointing a gun at a family member's head, I'm going to take some action. I may not kill that person, but I'll try to stop him. I think it's a Christian duty to stop injustice.
Also, some people own guns only for hunting.
triggergnu 2 years ago
Agree 110%. I think this viewpoint is Biblically supported as well.
brown55061 2 years ago
Remember, it was Jesus who picked up a weapon (a scourge) and violently drove the moneychangers from the temple. The same Bible that says Thou shalt not kill also says there is a time to kill. (Ecclesiastes 3:3)
leatherneck2044 2 years ago
pacifism is also fun, because you can make cool stories. what if?
verdaccio 2 years ago
Funny you brought up the part about Jesus speaking of coats. You craftily left out the part where Jesus told his disciples to sell their cloaks and buy swords.
clayrains 2 years ago
You're ignoring the context of the story. Later on in that same story in Luke, Jesus also says "put your sword back in its place, for he who draws the sword shall die by the sword." Jesus' followers accepted persecution, and even martyrdom, peacefully.
The idea is that self-defense is acceptable as only a last resort. Nowhere in the scriptures does Jesus ever resort to it.
xobrentox 2 years ago
Putting the sword back in it's place is not the same as not keeping it for just reasons.
Mossy500A 2 years ago
I'm not against keeping a weapon for self-defense. But looking for justification for it in the Bible is pointless, because you can find justification for just about ANYTHING in the Bible.
Men having multiple wives, slavery, murder, etc. There's a verse for almost anything you can think of.
The point is to get at the real substance of the stories found in the Bible.
xobrentox 2 years ago
I agree that substance should be found, but these text should be studied to make sure that they are properly applied.
Jesus didn't need a sword to defend himself. He was put here to die for our sins. His disciples needed swords because they were mortal.
Mossy500A 2 years ago
You just said that Jesus DIED for our sins, and then said his disciples needed swords because they were MORTAL.
xobrentox 2 years ago
Yes. Is that incorrect?
Mossy500A 2 years ago
Because Jesus was mortal too. Someone can't DIE unless they are mortal. So I don't understand the need for that particular comparison between Jesus and his disciples. Furthermore, his disciples faced martyrdom peacefully, even though Roman persecution of Christians was mostly an issue of the Romans questioning Christians' loyalty to the empire, rather than an issue of religious freedom, but that's another story entirely.
The point is, Jesus would not condone murder.
xobrentox 2 years ago
What is murder? That is the question you should ask yourself.
Mossy500A 2 years ago
Murder is pretty cut and dry. If you kill someone or something, it's murder. Self-defense or not. No one has the right to play God.
I hate war, I hate capital punishment, and I hate meat eating. Those are all forms of murder. But honestly, we're straying from the issue at hand here. As I've stated before, I am not against owning a weapon for self-defense. But the issue at hand is what Jesus said, or would say, about the issue.
xobrentox 2 years ago
Do you think Jesus would be against you defending your girlfriend from a threat, even if you had to kill the attacker?
Doing that is showing the love you have for that person. One of the greatest things is protection of life from threats to it.
Mossy500A 2 years ago
While I personally WOULD defend my girlfriend from an attacker, even if it did mean killing them (only if absolutely necessary), I don't find justification for this in anything Jesus said. I don't like to speculate on the character of Jesus, and I don't know what he would think of handguns and things like that.
But just earlier this week, in a personal conversation, my own pastor said "We humans, we've created a lot of shit. God didn't create it, we did. God didn't create bombs!"
xobrentox 2 years ago
God gives us the technology, but man must decide on whether it will be used for good or for evil. I believe a gun in your hand would be used for good. Jesus would approve of you using it that way.
Mossy500A 2 years ago
If killing in self-defense was murder, then it would be punishable in the same way that murder is in the Bible. However, it is codified and treated differently, as is accidental manslaughter.
Bloodninjapirate 2 years ago
Ugh, you can't just say "The Bible". The Bible is made up of so many books, written by so many people, with so many different points of view, and different experiences.
What we are talking about here is very specifically what Jesus himself would say on the matter. That is all.
You can't find scripture in the old testament to back up any claim you make.
xobrentox 2 years ago
Yes, and Jesus, as the purported son of God, would obviously not disagree with God's words. Murder has a definition in the Bible. If you want to redefine it as "any killing" that's fine, but don't expect anyone else to go along with that.
Bloodninjapirate 2 years ago
Why is that so "obvious"?
The word Israel means "to wrestle with God." The books of the Bible are littered with stories of the most holy and revered figures in history wrestling with God. A God who, by the way, is portrayed in many different ways throughout the many books of the Bible.
And many people do consider "any killing" to be murder. I don't, but the question here is what Jesus said about it, based on Jesus' words, straight from the Gospels.
xobrentox 2 years ago
Because you can't be the son of God (and also Him at the same time) and disagree with his words without undermining his claim to perfection. For everyone else, disagreeing and struggling with God is fine, but when you claim to God in flesh, there's a bit of an inconsistency in arguing with your own perfect word.
I haven't found a single definition for murder that doesn't at least require intent. As I mentioned before though, it's somewhat odd to assume the son of God would contradict his father
Bloodninjapirate 2 years ago
Would you say that the character of God is presented in the same light throughout the entire Bible?
Take the literature in the Bible, and just for a moment, as a thought experiment, remove all of your religions convictions, and just treat it as literature, and nothing more. After doing so, can you honestly say that the character of God seems like the same person/being throughout the entire Bible??
xobrentox 2 years ago
Yes, but I regard his character as insane. However, either way, it's Jesus' problem to square that and stick with it, not mine.
Oh, xobrentox, you seem to have confused me for a Christian. I'm not. I do treat it as literature, but from the standpoint of Jesus, all of God's word remains God's word. If he thought otherwise, he would have called some of the texts heretical. Therefore, the burden is on him to not contradict his "father's" word.
Bloodninjapirate 2 years ago
What's ironic here is that I AM a Christian, lol.
I believe, if the old testament is taken totally literally, Jesus does contradict God's word because what he preached was love. You can find love in the character of God throughout the Bible, but he is also vengeful and selfish at many times; quite the opposite of Jesus.
xobrentox 2 years ago
I wouldn't consider Jesus to be *entirely* unvengeful. For instance, there was a point when he got rather angry and flipped out on a bunch of people for inappropriate use of a temple. I haven't really seen that many instances of the God of the Bible being flat-out selfish, so much as petty. But here's the problem: if Jesus is God made flesh, how is it that he contradicts himself and remains perfect?
Bloodninjapirate 2 years ago
Because I don't believe that every story about God in the old testament is actually about God.
xobrentox 2 years ago
So what, do all the ones that contradict what Jesus was about get tossed out because they raise uncomfortable questions? What's the point in having a scripture if you pick and choose which parts of it apply?
Bloodninjapirate 2 years ago
God doesn't need Jesus to contradict him, he does it himself. I don't take the scripture literally in every way, I take what I can get out of every story and try and live my life based on some of the lessons to be found there. You can find laws about having multiple wives or slavery in the Bible. I don't agree with any of that.
Yes I do believe that Jesus was God in the flesh, but I don't believe that means it has to be the God portrayed in the books selected to be in the bible.
xobrentox 2 years ago
So, do you not believe in a perfect God? And can you explain why you think Jesus was God in flesh but at the same time not necessarily the God he claimed to be?
Bloodninjapirate 2 years ago
I believe in a perfect God, but that doesn't mean that every single book, CHOSEN BY MAN to be in the Bible absolutely HAS to be taken totally literally. Plus, the entire old testament wasn't even assembled together as "one work" at the time Jesus was alive. In addition to that, to try and nitpick at every little detail in Jesus' message pretty much causes people to miss the point entirely. Jesus was trying to reach people. It was God attempting to have a personal relationship with his people.
xobrentox 2 years ago
Okay, so which books do you think don't make the cut? I mean, most of the problem books for Christians (like Leviticus and Deuteronomy and Exodus) were well-established within the Jewish tradition. That's where you find all of things that codify murder, manslaughter, killing in self-defense, and their respective punishments. Now, if you don't buy into those, you kind of remove the foundation of Judaism, on which the God of Christ is based.
Bloodninjapirate 2 years ago
The laws found in said books were intended for people at the time. As I said before, there are laws in the old testament concerning multiple wives, slavery, etc.
Christianity is based in Judaism in a sense, because Jesus himself was a Jew. But I maintain that Jesus would have came to earth and did what he did regardless of what religious traditions preceded him.
And even by the time Jesus came around, the Jewish faith had splintered into twelve separate tribes, and was hardly unified.
xobrentox 2 years ago
Hm. How do you figure that he would have come either way?
Sure, but they all remembered some basic traditions (passover, that sort of thing).
Bloodninjapirate 2 years ago
Because saying that the Jewish religion is essential to the existence of Jesus is like saying that I only would have been born if my parents were Christian. I still would have been born, my parents just wouldn't be religious. Jesus would have just been something other than a Jew.
xobrentox 2 years ago
But according to everything Jesus' words were built on, he had to be born a Jew. The coming of the Messiah was promised as part of the old covenant, and it was promised to come of a direct line from Adam. If Jesus was born to a non-Jewish family, he wouldn't have fulfilled the requirements of being the savior as his own God put forth. That's what I'm talking about.
Bloodninjapirate 2 years ago
You seem like you're concerned exclusively with the text of the Bible, as if we're supposed to believe that God himself penned the entire thing cover to cover.
If it's taken literally, it contradicts itself. If it's taken as imperfect, than it becomes useless. I take a third approach to it and just try and get the message out of it. There is so much more to the Bible than just trying to be super obedient to God and punching your ticket to Heaven.
xobrentox 2 years ago
So, does that mean you don't like Matthew 5:18 as well?
There's kind of a problem with your third approach, one that I think you can see in other Christians (especially the extreme ones): if you just shoot for a general message, it's also meaningless, because with a sufficient amount of subtraction of texts within the Bible, you can make the book say virtually anything, even in the New Testament.
Bloodninjapirate 2 years ago
I don't see how any message is meaningless. How is "treat everyone with love and respect and live the best life you can" meaningless?
I think that serves humanity much better than setting a list of rules ever could. We try that every day with our governments and our laws, and see how well that turns out?
xobrentox 2 years ago
Well, first off, I've never found that particular message in the Bible. Especially the respect bit.
So far, the systems of rules we've managed to come up with have kept us from destroying ourselves, despite the various mutually unfriendly nations that have managed to acquire horrifically powerful weaponry, so I'd say it's turning out alright.
Bloodninjapirate 2 years ago
Well than all that tells me is that you've not actually tried to digest anything that Jesus ever talked about.
Rape, murder, armed robbery, assault and battery, drug trafficking, prostitution; these are all terrible things that are accruing on a daily basis. So much for a set of rules being effective.
xobrentox 2 years ago
Or rather, that I'm aware that he was more about "everyone should love and serve God faithfully", than he was "treat everyone with love and respect and live the best life you can". Jesus was a nice guy, but his message wasn't THAT feel-good.
Yep, and these actions also find punishments applied to them. And of course, the philosophy you've espoused hasn't really done any better at preventing these societal ills.
Bloodninjapirate 2 years ago
Jesus was teaching people how to live with each other, and how to be good people. I think you should read "Into The Fire" by Dr. Jim Cook, the whole message is spelled out really well in that book.
Yeah, and those punishments, like the set of rules they go along with, aren't very effective for deterring criminal behavior.
xobrentox 2 years ago
People already knew how to live with each other and be "good" people. That's why there was a functioning civilization for Jesus to exist in.
No? Prison time doesn't keep down imprisonable offenses at all? And, given all the people that aren't out committing that sort of behavior, your argument doesn't seem to be that functional.
Bloodninjapirate 2 years ago
No, I would say it doesn't. Not completely anyway.
People who refrain from committing crimes do so because they are good people. I would say our overcrowded prisons are proof enough that a simple set of rules doesn't do much for keeping crime in check. Perhaps to a point, but not entirely. Whereas if everyone lived with love, there would be nobody committing acts of murder, rape, etc.
xobrentox 2 years ago
Really? I could certainly believe that of some (and even many) of them, but on the whole, fear of consequences seems to drive much decision-making.
Our overcrowded prisons keep the criminals in prison. Once inside prison, they are no longer free to commit crimes against the populace. Here's a question for you: how much do you think the rate of crime would rise if we didn't punish those who broke the law? That seems to be the most fair way to gauge the effectiveness of our criminal laws.
Bloodninjapirate 2 years ago
I think this would have to actually be gauged on somewhat of a curve, because there's really two types of crime; petty, and violent. I think if we did away with punishment for all crimes, petty crime would probably increase, but I don't think that violent crimes (rape, murder, arson, etc) would increase all that much.
But my point is that I think people's own morals and values are more effective at guiding them than laws and punishment are. Look at all the people who still do illegal things.
xobrentox 2 years ago
So, all the gang members that could then commit crime without punishment would just back off on killing anyone they wanted? That's...naive.
If you believe that, then how do you account for the number of Christians in prison? Personally, I think a combination of the two is the best, since it's rather foolish to expect either one to get the job done on its own.
Bloodninjapirate 2 years ago
***If people lived with love*** there wouldn't be gang members. It's like you're just picking out parts of what I'm saying. Yes, laws are effective in a society where people ignore their hearts and live for greed and power. But if our world was a better place, if people lived with love and honesty, as Jesus did, the world would be a better place.
xobrentox 2 years ago
Sorry, I was assuming you were dealing in a hypothetical that could actually happen. Universal embrace of a philosophy just isn't in human nature. A scenario that depends on all the disparate peoples of the world having the same beliefs just isn't really workable. It's like communism: nice in theory, but it just doesn't work out when you introduce human beings into the mix.
Bloodninjapirate 2 years ago
I know. Humans suck.
I still maintain that personal morals and beliefs have more of an effect on a person than laws do. People still drive drunk. They know it's illegal, and potentially very harmful or fatal, but they chose to do it anyway.
However, perhaps a society without any rules at all would eventually just destroy itself. //shrug
xobrentox 2 years ago
I don't think they suck. They're just people being people. It's ridiculous to expect them to be anything else.
People still murder, even when they know it's wrong.
Like I said, a happy medium with strong personal morals and sensible laws seems to be the best model so far.
Bloodninjapirate 2 years ago
Wars, murders, rape, genocide, prostitution, that's not "just people being people," that sucks.
I don't believe that too many murders are committed by people who actually believe what they are doing is wrong. You can sit there and go "they know it's wrong" but I would say most people who murder find some way to justify it. Even something petty, like they owed them money, or they were on their turf.
xobrentox 2 years ago
Love, people coming together to donate money and resources to the victims of natural disasters, parents trying to raise children to be safe and happy, men and women putting their lives on the line for complete strangers. That's the flip side of people being people. The good comes with the bad.
Then you may be unfamiliar with the term "crime of passion". Certainly, many people do what you describe, but you'll find plenty of people committing crimes that they'll almost instantly regret.
Bloodninjapirate 2 years ago
That's true. I only wish people could live THAT side of the coin instead of the other side of it. I've accepted that the world sucks sometimes, but I still love my life and the people in it, and I give thanks for it every day.
I have heard of "crime of passion".
What did this whole conversation start from again?? I honestly don't remember, lol.
xobrentox 2 years ago
Crimes of passion are some of the most common murders. As your probably know, they occur when an individual commits a crime without planning it out in advance, and does so largely due to an extreme emotional state. It's actually a huge chunk of murders.
lol, I believe it came from our discussion of whether or not a professed "son of God" can have a philosophy radically different from said God without automatically invalidating one or both of their claims to perfection.
Bloodninjapirate 2 years ago
The only books I concern myself with in any LITERAL sense are Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. There is so much substance to what Jesus is saying, over analyzing every last word in the Gospels, or the rest of the Bible, is pointless; you miss out on the real message.
If we implemented the same level of scrutiny that we do to the Bible to every other historical text, we would be left with basically zero knowledge of the ancient world.
xobrentox 2 years ago
Might wanna concern yourself with Matthew 5:18 then, since it doesn't exactly lend itself well to your belief that the laws of God are transitory or limited to some people at some times. Rather, you see the various contradictory messages (which really shouldn't be expected out of perfection).
Except that many other historical texts have contemporary accounts backing them up (not so, with the Bible, despite its length).
Bloodninjapirate 2 years ago
"clearly pretty much was..." lol
saturatedfact 2 years ago
christians could learn a lot from Jesus... funny that...
PSF1 2 years ago
Jesus did not endorse violence, but he was no pacifist. If he was, then he wouldn't have flogged the merchants in the temple.
WillPoopForFood 2 years ago
you stupid christians amaze me. your arguments blow me away,bible quoting weirdo. what about this: talk about jesus when you have proof of the reason we are here, not some stupid outdated conclusion full of historical loopholes.
BirdhouseMaster 2 years ago
and thou shall not kill is correct....however God said murder is sheading of innocent blood not a criminal...God whiped out millions because of sin, (the flood, sodom and gomorra etc )....many times God ordered Isrial to destroy others with the sword because of evel....
bikerbadass41 2 years ago
why did peter have a sword on when Jesus was in the garden to be taken away...remember when he cut off the ear of the gaurd...peter was one of the closest persons to Jesus, so why would Jesus let him wear a sword....Jesus is about mercy but a life threatening crime against you is different....and when Jesus returns as stated in REV. He will return as a warrior to conquere evel...balance man, balance...
bikerbadass41 2 years ago
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DJSedSo 2 years ago
That's some importANT CONTEXT, THANKS.
No thanks to caps lock, however.
5thWatcher 2 years ago
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DJSedSo 2 years ago
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DJSedSo 2 years ago
Good comment, bikerbadass41. Sorry to have to clarify my reply (I had to delete those old ones). As was common for Jews before, during, and especially after Jesus' time, the sword was used for protection against wild animals and robbers during travels. Even Jesus disciples wouldve been justified in continuing this practice long after Jesus rose from the dead, appeared to his disciples once more, spoke with them, and finally sent them on their journey of spreading the word of God.
DJSedSo 2 years ago
what happened you, how did you find god?
dunlaoghaire 2 years ago
Jesus had a lot to say about Hypocrits, and acknowledging both that jesus is your lord and that jesus wouldn't want you to("throw the first stone" is pharose level hypocracy. The "i'm a flawed human" argument doesn't quite fit, you could excuse any crime on that basis. It's empty to say you believe in jesus, and then not follow his teachings. To look at the plank in my own eye, I don't always folow my principles, but i'm don't tell people to join me in breaking them as you did in vigilante.
unassumption 2 years ago
what I was talking about in that video was no more than justice as the law would have it and as god allows.
5thWatcher 2 years ago
Weather Jesus was a pascifist depends on how literally you take Jesus's role in the Book of Revelations, and weather you think jesus was the same person as the god of the old testement. He certainly argued for pascifism. Even if he wasn't a pascifist with regards to sin, he certainly expected humans to be. I would love to live by jesus's judge not philosophy, as your analysis of the burglar story shows every situation is hugely complicated. I'd die before kiling probably, and I'm athiest :p
unassumption 2 years ago
the incident that got jesus arrested was a violent one. he tossed tables and cages as a violent expression of anger toward what the temple had become. No one was hurt but if i saw God have a temper tantrum id get out of the way too. Pacifist , NO but also does not want any one to come to harm. his purpose is our salvation not demise.
vonriktoven 2 years ago
"does not want any one to come to harm" = the very definition of pacifism.
5thWatcher 2 years ago
the USAF has MX missiles so that people dont come to harm. most gun owners do not have a gun so they can shoot some one. In Luke things were getting Bad and Jesus was about to go away for 3 days and could not be there to fix what could go wrong. there for it is better they appear able to defend them selfs. i do agree with you in principle, MY worldly things are not worth some ones life. but it is stupid to go unprotected, im fairly sure Jesus is ok with that he said so in luke.
vonriktoven 2 years ago
clearly not read all the scriptures. Luke: 35-37 Jesus told the disciples to sell there garments to buy a sword during the last supper. however he did rebuke Peter for using said sword to cut the Roman guard's ear off in the very next passage. it was clear to me Jesus's intent here was not violence but to prevent violence. some times threat of force is a deterrent. mercy as you stated is much more important to Jesus and tho, healing the guard was a larger concern to him than his own safety.
vonriktoven 2 years ago
Judges 1
Israel Fights the Remaining Canaanites 1 After the death of Joshua, the Israelites asked the LORD, "Who will be the first to go up and fight for us against the Canaanites?" 2 The LORD answered, "Judah is to go; I have given the land into their hands." 3 Then the men of Judah said to the Simeonites their brothers, "Come up with us into the territory allotted to us, to fight against the Canaanites. We in turn will go with you into yours." So the Simeonites went with them.
wehaveacar 3 years ago
You try to use the old testament to tell me about what Jesus would have taught?
Lol.
5thWatcher 3 years ago
I understand what you're saying here, but what about police and military?
I always figured killing in war or to protect/enforce the law is the only time when guns should be in the hands of christian cops or soldiers.
What do you think of my view? Your video has made me question my belief on the issue.
Debono11 3 years ago
Isn't the greatest act of love to lay down your life to an enemy?
wildthunder009 3 years ago
What you're suggesting is suicide, and thats a sin.
Debono11 3 years ago
So Jesus was a sinner? Jesus didn't fight the Romans at Gethsemane, nor let his men either, therefor laying his life down.
BenDrnach 3 years ago 2
Jesus was sent to die for the sins of mankind, not fight wars.
How do you think the governments of nations that God has established in his will remain today?
The holy spirit does not protect nations, nor does it enforce law. Men have to do these things, thats why it's important that we do it the right way.
Debono11 2 years ago
Guns have other purposes than "killing people"
andrewjarvi 3 years ago
You mean like shooting at human shaped targets on a shooting range?
5thWatcher 3 years ago
Is that a serious question?
Thousands make livings out of competitive shooting and millions enjoy recreational shooting. No human is on the receiving end of the muzzle
andrewjarvi 3 years ago
Just FYI, my actual opinion on this is different than I think Jesus' would have been. However it is worth noting that if you own a gun in your house and use it for home defense you are far more likely to shoot one of your own family members.
I'd think even competitive shooters would bulge in the pants just a little if they found themselves in a situation where they could use a gun in order to achieve some perceived saving-deed.
5thWatcher 3 years ago
I understand and somewhat agree.
But I have a question regarding the topic of the video:
Does the fact that I own, and may use, a firearm for self defense deny me salvation?
andrewjarvi 3 years ago
Nothing can deny you salvation, but in the event you use it to cause harm to someone (or even desire to), that would be a serious sin on your soul.
5thWatcher 3 years ago
Tell me more about this "serious sin on your soul". I often hear that all sins are equal in God's eyes but I think its kind of a strange concept. How can a liar be just as guilty as a murderer?
andrewjarvi 3 years ago
Statistically speaking, most of the family members killed by firearms in the home were killed by accident, often by a child playing with a gun.
WillPoopForFood 2 years ago
I would say your use of the adultery point isn't the best one out there to support your argument due to the context of both being very different, but I will echo the non-killing and the sacrifice of material objects. However, I would say that the defense of your family, for the single purpose of your family is in fact, a reason to have a gun if you are willing to take the risks. I will also agree however, that it isn't something you can say that Jesus will support.
Hellblade8 3 years ago
As a Christia