A lot of Fr. Barron's videos make sense. But he is totally uninformed here. For one thing, he mistakes the USSR and other so-called socialist states for socialism. He is fooled by the propaganda of fake socialists. See Noam Chomksy's "The Soviet Union Versus Socialism."
Also, Fr. Barron mistakes capitalism's theories about itself for actually existing capitalism. For example, capitalism preserves free enterprise for the few, and destroys it for the many, contrary to its claims.
Father, I've listened to the talk you have posted on the website on this issue, and I like it very much, but I have one concern/disagreement with it. You mentioned that profit is the only legitimate measurement of the growth of an economy. My concern is that profit, if defined strictly in terms of monetary gain, fails to take into account the unpaid housework/ other unpaid work that people, mostly women, do. Is there some church-approved way to redefine growth which takes this into account?
It is not so much the idea of "profit as measurement" that I'm taking issue with, but how "profit" can be expanded to measure all wealth while still serving as a useful measure of economic growth.
Thanks father for another excellent video. I love Michael Moore and thank God for the spirit of concern for his fellow man an catholic witness. I'm a Canadian, and he rather likes quite a bit about our modified market system. You have encouraged me to look up this encyclical and I must say that pope JPII's "Laborem Exercens" "On Human Work" is one of the very best things I have ever read on the whole domain of work and economies. A person couild get pretty well educated on your videos alone.
I believe as Milton Friedman said no system has yet been discovered that has destroyed poverty like capitalism has. When we see "bad" capitalism, it's usually because of government intervention which props up some companies and chooses winners. This is a distortion of capitalism. In its real form, capitalism favors the poor. Tom Woods, who wrote "How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization" and has appeared in the likewise named EWTN series, is a strong proponent of libertarianism.
Father Barron,thank you for your video and your thoughts.Having said that,I would like to suggest that you read GK.Ghesterton,or Hillair Belloc and other works of "Distributism".This model of economics has been found productive,efficient,and moral.Check out " The Mondragon experiment" on Youtube. Short Documentary!
A church and a family are based on socialism, not capitalism and they are the basis for society, commun-ity. Let us hope they work contrary to common believe. Is your work ever done at home? Then why is there not enough work for many in a capitalistic system? How much is love worth if you hold on to it? Meanwhile, money appreciates when you hoard it.
@1wordmanymystycs You forgot to mention that the military, police and government itself is socialist. Until these rabid "free market" types argue to privatize the military and start tendering contracts for "government services providers", they are plain and simple hypocrites. Of course they won't, because they (rightly) understand that the protection of lives cannot be left to private corporations. But what's the difference between protecting them from violence and protecting them from illness?
My post should read "capitalism" falls into corruption...Which system is more ethical, one that relies on free exchange, or one which relies on special government privileges for a few and denies access to the majority? Upward mobility is greatest in capitalist societies. The poor are wealthiest in capitalist societies. Governments that protect private property rights but generally stay out of the market lead to prosperity.
@wordonfirevideo If the Church is concerned about the ways "capitalism" falls corruption (it does so when government chooses winners and losers, which is actually socialism, not capitalism), it should be much more concerned with the ways in which socialism falls into corruption. Socialism promises access to all but has always resulted in abject poverty for the majority and services for the few who can bribe or negotiate well. Which system is more ethical, one that relies on free exchange (cap
@1melianthus Thank you for being a voice of economic reason here. In other YouTube clips, Father mentions that scientists should stay out of theological debates because they aren't well schooled. Economics is by far the most important issue affecting our lives, and the Catholic Church has decided to voice its opinion without educating itself. Father, let's start very basic: What creates wealth? Hundreds of years ago, everyone was poor. Now some countries lag behind while others are very we
@runr100 Appreciate the condescension. My take is formed by the Catholic Church's densely textured social teaching. The Church enthusiastically embraces the market economy and its method of wealth-generation. It is, at the same time, concerned about ways that capitalism falls into corruption.
Fr. Barron, capitalism is inherently corrupt. The relationship of capitalist to worker is one of exploitation in that capitalist enterprise is compelled to pay labour less than the value of that labour or that business will die. Thus, profit in the sense of gain for oneself, and which is not a sin, should not be confused with profit under capitalism, which is always exploitative. The capitalist gets more than he gives. That is his profit, and it comes from the worker.
Corrupt and decadent forms of capitalism aren't capitalism. Capitalism means ownership of private property and protection of private property rights. The Swiss are big believers in capitalism. Contrast this with socialist philosophy, which is using the guns of the state to steal from the haves to give to the have nots. The Bible is strongly against stealing and does respect individuals. I am shocked that the Catholic Church, with all the poverty it presides over in the world, has not learn
The failure of the public to understand that the nature of the government is one which creates policies without regard to secondary and tertiary consequences is simply astonishing to me. What happened in 2008 was the market attempting to CORRECT the distortions that were introduced due to bad public policy. And as long as people opt for the easy villain, the rich, they will continue to fail to understand that the federal governments monetary and housing policies were to blame.
Fr. Barron makes a critical mistake when he claims that the financial markets were deregulated. They, in fact, were more heavily regulated than they ever had been in history. In the housing market, it was not capitalist greed, but Congressional meddling upon which this whole mess rests. They wrote regulations which encouraged banks to loan money to people who couldn't afford the debt load they were taking on, and even further, they created sanctions when the banks refused to comply.
Damning Socialism & Communism by looking at the regimes of the last century is as fair as damning the Church by looking at the seamier side of the Church's history. An alternative to the evils of capitalism is not godless Socialism, but Christ-centred socialism. (Acts 2 has no profit motive, no entrepreneurs, no private ownership.) Jesus was not a capitalist, any more than He was a Socialist; He preached the Kingdom of God. Both are wrong, neither is good, both are judged by God.
John Paul's statement is complete but not clear. It speaks of injustice undermining the free market. That's an oxymoronic garden path sentence, if JP2 uttered it. I can be clearer, despite Barron saying it'd be hard to improve on it. Here goes: A true free market is not ruled but is protected by bans of those who attempt to rule in the absence of regulations.--thieves, ponzi schemers, government employees doing insider trading; government corporations, murderers and maimers, liars and priests.
Barron here says, in ambiguous Catholiceze, what he should have put in plain English, but didn't, because he's required as a priest never to argue clearly, as it would clarify the errors of influential church officials. Here, Barron says, as I put in plain English, that politics, not the efficiencies of the free market, should regulate the free market. In other words, he's saying the efficiencies should be blamed, not the shallow shortsighted groupthink of rather demented government politics.
I rejoined the church and enthusiastically gave to the poor and the church until I realized I had been invited back in just to question me and kick me back out again--and also pick my pocket. I think Richmond diocese finances operatives who perpetrate technology theft from Virginia Tech and elsewhere and sell it on the international market. Asked, I explicitly blamed the mafia; but they took offense, for they knew that the catholic mafia contains vatical intel people. I came. I went. I cried.
"Some version of" [pause] "capitalism is an intrinsically evil system." Is a garden path sentence indicative of doubt. The fact is, in Jesus' day, Rabbi Hillel had died when Jesus was 12 or 13. Hillel had put an end to the Jewish law requiring a business loan be entirely forgiven after seven years or some customary span of time, for people were borrowing and simply never paying it back and still demanding more loans. Jesus defended Hillel's innovative loan law in the parable of the talents.
@CalJennings The scripture verses you reference and this commentary actually do not go against each other. James 2 has nothing to do with this video. How do these Bible verses contradict what Fr. Barron was saying? There is a difference between a socialist society of people not of one mind and the early church community of people who are of one mind.
Michael Moore's definition of Capitalism (which is a silly term) includes Mercantilism, Corporate Welfare, Corporatism, etc. It's the latter kind of economic thinking, government colluding with business, that distorts markets, corrupts both government and business, and destroys freedom. Christ didn't say we look for benevolent tyrants, but tasked us directly with helping those in need. When government can do more than protect the Rule of Law, it becomes one more place for the power hungry to go.
We are not a capitalistic country, though there may be people who are capitalist. Even Adam and Ricardo stressed about the problems with concentrated capital. The term capitalism was used by Marx's dialectic materialism. So capitalism is a materialistic analysis of Free Market value ideas.
This contrast of capitalism and socialism is a false dichotemy if you take it under historical scrutiny.
Fr. Barron, thank so much for your videos. Your articulation of the faith is highly winsome—your explication of Thomas Aquinas is deeply moving! However, I have some reservations about your claims regarding capitalism, socialism, and their relation to Christianity. You argue that capitalism, when properly regulated, is reconcilable with Christianity. (Continued below)
(Continued from above) But don’t some of capitalism’s basic assumptions about the human person and human relationships stand in contrast to the Gospel? For instance, capitalism presupposes that humans are, fundamentally, in competition with each other. How does this square with Christianity’s affirmation that, at rock bottom, humans are made for communion with one another? (Cont. below)
(Continued from above) Where the capitalist system depends on each individual looking first to his or her own interests, the Gospel urges us to look first to the needs of the other. We are not fundamentally competitors; we are brothers and sisters whose relationships are characterized by shalom rather than self-interest. Furthermore, the law under capitalism functions not to bring us into closer communion with one another but rather to protect my property from you and vice versa. (Cont. below)
(Continued from above) As you know, in both the Old and New Testaments the people of God exercise, or are at least are commanded to exercise, a kind of economic redistribution that is antithetical to the acquisitiveness of capitalism. From Yahweh’s mandate that Israel practice Jubilee to the communal sharing of the church in Acts, scripture affirms an economics that is wholly foreign to any version of capitalism on offer today. (Continued below)
(Continued from above) Also, your critique of socialism is weak. Any intelligent Marxist would, like you, denounce the atrocities of Stalin, Pol Pot, et. al. But this does not mean that Socialism itself is worth abandoning. (Cont. below)
(Continued from above) Rather, it means that Socialism, like Christianity, has often strayed from its founding ideals. If the Inquisition and the Crusades don’t render Christianity illegitimate (and I don’t think they do), then neither do the Gulag or the Killing Fields debunk socialism. We could also draw Capitalism into the mix here, too. For the market economy has contributed to human misery and bloodshed just as much as Christianity and Socialism have. (Cont. below)
(Cont. from above) I understand that neither you nor the papal witness to which you appeal affirm an unregulated market, but I would ask you to consider how even highly regulated forms of capitalism still rely on presuppositions that are difficult to reconcile with the picture of human relationships and subjectivity found in Scripture. And I would encourage you to consider that Socialism might be more amenable to the Gospel than its repugnant historical incarnations would attest. (Cont. below)
(Continued from above) Fr. Barron, I write this not in a spirit of antagonism, but in a genuine desire to dialogue about an area fraught with difficulty for all of us who want to take Christ, his kingdom, and the church seriously. Again, I very much admire your teaching. You have strengthened my faith, and I look forward to learning more from you!
@riseaslarks Thanks for your engagement of this issue. Take a look at the closing sections of John Paul II's Centesimus Annus and you'll find the foundation for my argument. For the church, the market economy (the term it prefers to "capitalism") is the economic system that best corresponds to democracy in the measure that it is predicated upon the freedom and dignity of the individual. The church has no quarrel with "socialistic" elements within an overall market framework.
I think your series of posts here makes a lot of sense -- especially about the different assumptions capitalism and Christianity make about human nature. Capitalism is at heart social darwinism, human beings as inherently and unavoidably in competition. I believe somewhere in his corpus C.S. Lewis says something to the effect that the centre of the devil's philosophy is that all things are in competition, that the universe is a kind of zero sum game.
@wordonfirevideo Maybe. But the difference between you and me is that I am not Catholic, and you are or you want or try to be. You are not consequent with what Jesus Christ wanted to this World, and you know that. If you sell that Watch, you can use this money to make this World a best place for an entire family. You are just the son of the irracional combination of this economic system and a beautifull religion that you do not deserve to have.
Clergy was one of two privileged classes in the feudal system. It sold indulgences for $ so rich could buy of their sins. It had enormous riches.It slaughtered people during the inquisition,the crusades. It supported Nazis (Reichskonkordat), and the massacre on Serbs (because of their religion). It legitimated monarchs as descendents of god. The new testament on the other hand is very left wing socialist. Compare the two. The old testament vengeful god is what the church uses for hate politics.
What we usually think of as Socialist or Communist systems are both left wing and authoritarian. There are left wing libertarian forms of socialism as well. The only true communism to ever exist are purely voluntary communes, which include monasteries. I don't think those are against the church.
Personally I tend toward Geo-Libertarianism. This system teaches that it is wrong to monopolize natural resources without compensating those denied access. Biblical Gleaners Rights are one form of this.
At first I thought you were going to mention a different Michael Moore vs Sean Hannity conversation, but that had more to do with War than the Economy:
Hannity said that bin Laden and Al Qaeda are the enemy. Moore said Christ taught us to love our enemies, and asked Sean if he loves bin Laden and other terrorists. Hannity says that "Well, yeah, but I love them in that I want to kill them." With a very concerned look Moore says "I don't think that's the kind of love Christ was talking about."
Capitalism is a corrupt system, in that it is a fallen form of Free Enterprise that places too much importance on the few who own vast amounts of capital rather than on fostering enterprise among all actors in the economy. The Church's economic ideology of Distributionism says the problem with capitalism is not too many capitalists but too few.
Gvernment regulation often favors the few, leading to Crony Capitalism. A better system would not tax income, but collect a fee on wealth it protects.
What do you think about the christian anarchism of Dorothy Day and the economic distributism of G.K. Chesterton? After all, These people were traditional catholics who derived much of their their political understanding from catholic social teaching, yet they were anti-capitalist.
@philpil100 I like Chesterton in this regard much more than Dorothy Day. You're quite right in saying that they were critics of capitalism--as are the Popes of the twentieth century, if by "capitalism" you mean the market economy in an undisciplined form.
I also dare to disagree with JPII. I don't think his economic views fall into his infallibility prerogative. I rather like the views of liberation theology except when they substitute religious figures for revolutionary ideals, but in terms of seeking social justice, it does reflect, I think, the aim of the church towards a sharing and giving society, which socialism clearly offers, despite the perversion that some "socialist" leaders have rendered.
Maybe you have a misinterpretation of what socialism really is. Take Hugo Chavez in Venezuela, a catholic man. He is a socialist and he's done so much good for his country, regardless of the lies you will see on US mainstream media. Poverty down 40% etc. socialism is demonized harshly in US because it represents a good alternative to this Opportunist unfair system that the oligarchy is afraid to lose. maybe you are a bit disconnected from the real world, I like your videos but shame on this one.
@wordonfirevideo I do, maybe you watch too much fox news or maybe you think that the Mainstream media in the US tells you the truth, I invite you to do some research into the matter, you'll be surprised.
So using your claims. Who has Hugo Chavez waged war with? he prints the venezuelan constitution on the basic grains. yet In the US media he is called a drug addict because he chews coca leaves, a dictator yet he has been democratically elected. yet bush is so praised yet he is responsible for the killing of millions, he is a drunk and you seem to believe he is christian. JPII even feared bush might be the antichrist? i bet your image of bush isn't as bad as chavez, I bet.
@wordonfirevideo And I would love it if you tell me what Human rights he has violated? Millions? you are a smart man, come on, don't make declarations that you know that you are not thoroughly informed with. leave that to protestants and right wing nut jobs.
@manuelturcios Oh I don't know: freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion--just for starts. And I'm not being cavalier about the number. I'm referring to his countrymen.
@wordonfirevideo I'm sorry father but you could not be more mistaken about this. Imagine for a minute if privately owned News outlet like CNN, CBS, FOX etc.. started calling to assassinate the president or to overthrow him, do you really think the US government would just allow this? it's crazy, you have no Idea how the privately owned and biased media in Venezuela did this vehemently, if anything it tolerated that too much. it's absurd to mention freedom of religion since Chavez is a catholic.
I'm Catholic, But I disagree with u on this. Since you started the video It was blatantly evident that you were building up into a praising of capitalism. I cannot take you seriously as a priest if you say that from Catholicism rises a favor of capitalism over socialism. From reading acts of the apostles it is evident that the early church SHARED its wealth among itself, met each others necessities. Present capitalism is an EVIL, opportunist neoliberalist machine that wages war for profit.
You do not know what socialism is, you are thinking communism, you showed a picture of russia. That is not what socailism is. Socialism by theoretical definition is democratic control of the workplace and of political institutions by the workers/citizens themselves. Communism is when you don't own anything. Everything is evenly shared. Socialism enbraces a market system, it is just fair to everyoneone subjected to it. It is also in accordence with Christianity because it protects the poor.
This was a terrific video in terms of learning which is the Church's real position on the economy and the state. Yet, we have to be careful, not all socialism is Marxist, there are social democracies, there are also the Nordic economic models. This distinction is neither made by Michael Moore nor Father Barron.
I find this man's message sincere, and basically right. However, it seems to me (not educated in economics) that as long as a capitalist system is in place, there will be people who work within the law to exploit others ignorant of those loopholes. After enough exploitation has occurred, the gov't closes that loophole, only for another to appear, ad infinitum.
Also, socialism (as evidenced by most European economies) supports all of the precepts laid out by Pope John Paul II. I'm just saying...
It is only when one had funds greater than what was requisite to attend to bare necessities that one began to evolve to the cultural level of creating civilization. This is why Americans, not primitive men, landed on the Moon. The notion of socialist Christianity is patent fraud. Socialism posits the state as the all-provident deity. It's a materialist ideology of abject serfdom. In Christianity, the path to salvation, to holiness, is predicated on the individual's freedom to choose how to live.
the Relationship we Catholics have with capitalism and socialism is always so tenuous to say the least. The biggest problem I have is when either capitalists or socialists (even the "soft" versions of those systems/ideologies) try to reduce Christ to a Champion of their form of materialism...truth is, Christ was not a socialist nor was he a capitalist and I don't know if he would be too interested in condemning each economic system even though he could easily do so.
Hmm.. Interesting points, but I would like to add that it was the Catholic church that supported and in fact outlined a universal healthcare plan taking almost every element from socialist healthcare plans. Also, as it is, the difference between capitalism and socialism is the difference between business and government. While socialism is not perfect, it has the right intentions to look after everyone most importantly those who need help the most. Only in the wrong hands, I argue, is it immoral.
While being an atheist myself - I do however note that Jesus was a leader of jewish rebellion against the ruling class. He advocated common ownership, and so on. However when Christianity has gained popularity in Italy & also started to get big in Rome, emperor Constantine was getting worried and decided to incorporate Christianity into his regime.
Thus Christianity lost its revolutionary character. Jesus was really proto-socialistic.
As a Socialist I am insulted that you would think socialism is barbaric. Come on if practiced properly anything can work. The indigenous communities before the europeans were socialist and they lived great lives!
I particularly liked the end, when you quoted JPII. Whether capitalism is in consonance with or against Catholic Social Teaching depends on ones definition. Sadly, people have various definitions of it. And sometimes, we could innocently be supporting the notion that stifles human freedom and steps on human dignity.
the amusing thing i find about michael moores moral critism of excessive wealth, is that he himself has been made rich by the capatilist system. I must also add the church itself is decorated in the trappings of excessive wealth, both these things are just examples of the religous not practising what they preach. Anyway Michael moores documentries are all filled with ignorance and flippant stupidity.
i agree with you 100 percent. and sometimes he asks the wrong questions, questions that shouldnt be asked. like would you sign your kid up for the military, uhhh first off no its not my choice its my childs choice if he or she is 18 and she wants to be in the military more power to them, but to put a parent on the spot like that is ridiculous because how are they supposed to answer if they say yes they are looked at as war mongering idiots if they say no they are unpatriotic and cowardice.
There is definitely a misunderstanding here. I saw Moore on an interview with Charlie Rose & he wasn't refering to the small / medium size businesses and basic captialism. What Moore was refering to in the movie was the shenanigans going on in Wall St. with Goldman Sachs
Modern Capitalism is an Evil. It brings out the brightest minds for hire for the wrong reasons. Watch "Dr Colin Ross on C.I.A mind control" and learn what these Capitalists are doing with our invested monies. They are so twisted that they have us investing into our own demise. What Dr Ross states in that video has been declassified by the goverenment. What they are doing since 1983 are crimes against humanity. Mind control by remote means is the sign of the beast on our heads 666ick. Peace out.
if i work hard and get rich, no one is entitled the product of my effort regardless of how much they need my money. and if private enterprises aren't trusted with the economy, then we're left with the government, which is incompetent and enforces its rule with force.that is what the church sided with in the middle ages and it was a horrible system. if a ceo doesn't get rich by the product of his inteligence, then a king will get rich with the product of yours.
to my mind a main point in the criticism of capitalism ought to be that it turns the view away from the things you can't measure. and i dont think that this is only a symptom. capitalism is all about calculation: when you give something, you want something back, that has the same or a higher value. i think that stands in strong contrast to the concept of love. i believe there is no calculation in god. i'm a bit disappointed of your dogmatic argumentation here.
disapointing, there is not just capitalism and socialism, they are concepts of the 18. and 19th century - thats what Moore is saying we need new ideas, ideas which also better fit to the teachings of Jesus, ind is the profit motiv morally praisable just because the Pope says it - surly not
They just showed Moores' docu' on Ch4 here, interesting that bit about the juvenile correction centre that had been privatized and kids with minor and first offences being banged away for up to 11months by a corrupt judge fleecing the tax payer! The NHS have privatised the kidney dialisis service here and people who don't need it are being brow beaten into dialisis by their GP's for some reason.
I love you so, and don't want to be irreverent but this is the first time I really thing you miss the point and yr views about socialism are so unfair, my father! As unfair as the views of many about us. Anyway, I am thankful that you are in this world; God bless you, and O, Lord, may humanity have a real system where no more indecent poverty provoked by indecent profit will be seen as fair!
Dear father ! I am catholic AND socialist, the best people in the world that I met were my brazilian "red"priests of the Theologie of Liberation who lived in accord with the teachings of Jesus.(...)
Do you tend to like Moore's films, Father? I do. They're not perfectly objective of course (what political movie is?), but I think he has raised many valid points and only shakes cages that need shaking. I know you don't like Bill Maher, but this point reminds me of Maher speaking to a priest outside the Vatican in 'Religulous', asking if Jesus would support the 'palatial' Vatican and the money wrapped up in Christianity.
I'm not defending socialism per se, but it does seem like a pretty specious argument to go from the observation that the implementation of socialism, or variants of socialism, failed in spectacular fashion in a handful of countries necessarily implies that socialism itself is completely unworkable. Just because I fell down the first 5 times I tried waterskiing didn't mean I was incapable of waterskiing. To be fair, different variants of socialism have been applied reasonably successfully.
its scientifically proven through brain scans that money turns people into humans who behave exactly like junkies when they get a hit of cocaine its not just a moral issue humans are incapable of dealing with the drug known as money, evidence of this goes back to biblical times.
The power of money needs to be taken out of the equation one of the best ways i have seen are democratic workplaces where everyone actually does own the workplace and have a vested non greed based interest in it.
I guess the more interesting question is this: why does America, which so many claim to be a "Christian nation", seem to have so much trouble with greed, corruption, and other excesses born of capitalism?
I won't blame religion specifically, although many of the most prominent business leaders and conservative politicians claim to be very Christian. It seems that contemporary American Christianity could do a much better job of instilling its safeguards against greed and economic injustice.
I don't think that the United States has more of a problem with greed and corruption than other nations, but that you're just interpreting the differing scale of things. There is plenty of both, of course, but it I think it just gets a lot of attention because the US is the wealthiest country on earth by far and the one where excesses and abuse of excesses are most visible.
@jackbauerinvc - That kind of thing is hard to measure. But I wasn't really saying that America is the most corrupt -- only that there is a stark contrast between many people's view of America as a "Christian nation" (and we are one of the most devout of the Western powers) and our problems with greed and corruption. I take for granted the idea that Christianity (like most religions) is AGAINST greed and corruption, so if America is so Christian, seems like we should have less.
This kind of reasoned response makes your videos worthwhile. I haven't seen the movie yet, but I find Moore provocative, and I'll catch it on video. We'd be better off if all capitalists shared the Catholic take on it. Sadly, capitalism leads too easily to the excesses you decry.
My biggest quibble would be that "socialism" should be defined. You seem to mean totalitarian socialism, when I doubt that's what Moore advocates. He is more a labor union, social welfare type socialist.
Democracy and capitalism sound great in theory, but fails in practice just like any other social-economic systems in the past. Never was and never will be in favour of small people.
I doubt his intention is directed to Michael Moore's movie.. but just to look at it from a Catholic perspective.. with allegiance to being Catholic - not moore's movie.. It's just a discussion on the movie... this isn't political..
the whole POINT of the movie is how corruption came out of capitalism, and this guy doesn't mention it at ALL. Moore is not against the free market all together, just some of the gross injustices it makes possible, such as the lack of oversight that caused the economy to be where it is. This guy is out to make Moore's arguments look somewhat reasonable, but really inconsequential in the whole scheme of capitalism's efficacy by ignoring his FAR most important points, HUGE corporate scandals.
While you're asking people who lived in socialist states for their thoughts on socialism, you might also want to ask Iraqis and Afghans for their thoughts on capitalism's violent march towards exponential economic growth in a finite world of natural resources.
Printing money debases the purchasing power of money already in circulation. So if you have a savings of say, 1000 dollars, but the dollar loses 10% of it's purchasing power, you still have 1000 in the bank, but only 900 dollars of purchasing power. A gold standard would prevent Government from stealing wealth right out from under it's citizens. The central bank and all of the so called "regulations", wage and price controls, all of these things are hostile to Capitalism.
True capitalism is one void of corporatism, protectionism, mercantilistic tendency, unsound money, (ie: fiat paper) and government bailouts (printing money to prop up institutions that the market would have purged) yet despite the plague of these interventions that hinder the capitalist structure, we have enjoyed the highest standard of living compared to other countries. Sadly, Michael Moore equates all of the above plagues as if they were inherently "Capitalist", which they are not.
And it's pretty sad that the catholic church falls short in this regard. Because if it had a proper intellectual understanding of modern industrial capitalism and how it plays with people's lives, it could speak with an infinitely greater moral clarity and authority about our lives, and not just rely on tradition to reel people in.
But we know that's not going to happen. They're just as much bound by society's politics as any other institution.
Yeah, unfortunately I think Fr. Barron not only falls short here, he betrays how religion always falls short when it comes to material issues. The catholic church in general seems to love to conflate modern industrial capitalism, where a tiny minority of people run the entire world for themselves, with this mythical farmer's market capitalism where everyone's free to produce and trade.
The rules are quite simple and unambiguous FrBarron, thou shalt not steal and thou shalt not lie , stealing and lying the building blocks of capitalism, stealing from workers, customers and future generations and other orgasnisms in the biosphere, you cannot get something for nothing/profit in the real world, the laws of physics are not negotiable!. Lies are the speciality of capitalism's ally the advertising industry.here endeth the lesson.
ill comment on real life.what do you do when you entrust your family to the catholic schools and church and all you receive is pain.dont tell me to pray and offer it up,i did that from the very beginning.i kow JESUS is alive in me, but iam tired of your balogne.
Fr. Barron, don't you and Cardinal George and all your students at Mundelein all have more than 1 shirt in your closet?
The money question is bothering me. I just graduated from college, and I'm trying to decide how important money will be to me in life. I'd like to be able to travel and stay at nice hotels and watch blu-ray, but I wonder if I can justify saving up for a DVD or piece of furniture when I'm always walking by hungry and cold people on the street.
I wouldn't take Chrysostom's recommendation literally, but I would allow its challenge to reach into your heart. The key is detachment and having the constant openness to generosity. One way to start is by tithing, giving 10 percent of your income away to the poor.
What exactly does it mean to say "Gross Injustice"? Does this mean outlandish profits? Because if it does, it only shows that profits aren't properly understood. Or does this mean fraudulent advertising, manipulation ect... I'm curious about what "Gross Injustice" is supposed to mean.
If we were to apply what Francis George of Chicago said, why isn't the Vatican giving away its vast fortune to the poor? Why is so much of their money spent on robes and decorations and giving cardinals and bishops a plush life? Why does the Vatican have its own bank, and have dealings with the international bankers? Why are they a major stockholder of Amer. Express?
Could it be that the Vatican is no different from Fortune 500 companies?
A quick answer: it's a little glib to talk about the Vatican just "giving away" its "vast fortune." I mean, how do you "give away" the Sistine Chapel? Or the Vatican Museums? Or St. Peter's? Much of the Vatican's wealth is in pretty much non-transferable form. Every year, the Pope has to raise money from around the Catholic world in order to make ends meet at the Vatican. And it has a bank because it's a sovereign state and needs money to operate.
Could you say something about the Westboro Baptist Church? that picket Gay and Military Funeral's? If you don't know about them search them on youtube.
Sweden is socialist country only by the standards of right wing americans, we have private property and a free market, only with a bit more government control than some other systems.
We are hardly the happiest people in the world.
Our suicide rate is top five in the world, it is not proof beyond doubt that we are unhappy but still a clear indication.
You really do some awesome work here. You always make me stop *dead in my tracks* and go "whoa, I hadn't expected that".
My mother needs to see your videos. She's terrified of Catholics and I have no idea why (we're a Methodist family but I love Catholic insights on topics like this). Well, come to think of it, Ma herself has no idea why she's so terrified of Catholics. LOL!
Keep up the great work, Father. Thanks for making me stop and think.
What do you think about Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh's constant refrain that President Obama is a socialist. Does the Church have some sort of obligation o come out and refute these assertions?
I can't believe I watched this whole thing and was interested throughout. I'm not Catholic, I left the faith years ago, and it's refreshing to see someone talk about Catholicism in an honest way that is not driven by an agenda. So much in the media, we have Republican conservatives bogarting Christianity and claiming that God wants them to be rich. It's sickening. It's nice to hear some people's beliefs are genuine and aren't politically tainted. A worthy discussion is taking place here.
Ah, then a most clever one amongst you replies to me and says: "Ah! But we don't need Christ! The Church tells us about politics. Christ is superfluous."
The irony is that to even have this disagreement, on a deeper level, Michael Moore and Father Barron must first agree! They must first agree that there is a politics sanctioned by Christ and then have a tussle over it! And so the politics that dares not speak its name informs the debates on this forum: Christendom. You're all fighting over the proper institutions, practices, modes of distribution that you hope (!) are sanctioned by Christ. But what if Christ didn't sanction (your) politics?
It's clear that this forum (following Barron's lead) is turning into various attempts, from the Left, Right and Center to align the Church with a certain society, a certain social mode. Politics attempts to marry theology, the pre-Christian ubiquity of attempts at civil religion resurface. It is not enough to belong to Rome or Washington DC, the people want to see their gov't & institutions sacralized. So the mad anti-Christian scramble for the definition of Christendom ensues on all sides...
No! The Church never identifies itself with any particular political or economic arrangement. It surveys them all and makes judgments, some relatively positive others relatively negative. But there is no properly Catholic political party.
MOORE WAS INCORRECT in the interview with Hannity about the gospel reading. The interview was on October 6. The Gospel reading from the Sunday before was NOT about the rich young ruler Mathew 11:25-30
and also socialism results in no harm. it is a flawed economic theory but what is being discribed here is political socialism/communism not the economic kind. and economies, capitalism and socialism are not evil and do not result in failure. it always humanity who mess up. rawls is right if only we could put on a veil of ignorance and then design a social contract. one problem with that is we would then have to follow it
now im just having too much fun. guys there are degrees of socialism and a free market economy. i come from a free market economy based on a social democracy. the goverment intervene on a regular basis to redistribute wealth and also in the healthcare system which is regarded in europe as a "market failure" which must be corrected. why is the american view always of the extreme ends of the spectrum. i never understood why a free country would focus on the extremes and not the middleground.
We can't really survive on just a "personal responsibility" ethic.
Personally, I need the banks and the markets to help me raise capital to (eventually!) own a home and raise a family.
I'd prefer it not to be that way but our society is not set up to promote family life, it's individualistic and most people don't seem to economically help each other, let alone the poorest.
I've noticed that none of the posts have referred to the latest encyclical, "Caritas in veritate" - the beautiful Encyclical Letter of His Holiness Benedict XVI that takes Rerum Novarum and Centissimus Annus, which have been mentioned, to the next level - a system that Chesterton and Belloc called Distributism.
Friend, what you're saying is true, but it's a bit of a banality. Sure, we're a fallen race and thus all of our institutions will be marked by corruption and imperfection. But that doesn't mean that we opt for moral equivalency. The church is sharply critical of errant forms of the market economy, but it holds that socialism is inherently problematic in a way that the market economy is not.
Friend, did you listen to my comments about the negative dimensions of capitalism? Did you hear my endorsement of some of Moore's perspective? Did you attend to my rehearsal of John Paul's criticism of unfettered capitalism? Come on, you're making me out to be J..D. Rockefeller! That said, like it or not, the church's social teaching stands against socialism, defined as a state control of the economy. It favors what it prefers to call the market economy--with proper restraints in place.
But is this preference merely a reactionary stance in response to the brutal treatment of the Catholic Church by the Soviet Union and its satellites, or is it grounded in authentic beliefs concerning intra-national and international economic relations?
Bolshevism is no more a form of Socialism than what passes for a free market in the United States.
I understand this may be the wrong forum. But how do Catholics feel about what was said by members of the Church against the Cardinal who peformed mass at Senator Kennedy's funeral?
"Freedom has many difficulties, and democracy is not perfect. But WE have never had to put a WALL up to keep our people in, to prevent them from leaving us."
That is true, and one of the reasons life America is so good is because the international economic equivalent of an AR-15 pointed at South America's head.
Ask the father about Archbishop Oscar Romero, and the Nuns who were murdered by Nationalist backed by American money
Which you somehow use to imply that socialist countries would NOT have used their money to finance international criminal activity? Sorry, but that's too idealistic for me. And don't equate standing up for freedom to defending international crime. Your comment is intriguing, but it has no place in this discussion.
Perhaps it is a matter of definition. I must ask what you mean by socialism, the Soviet model of a command and control economy than I would agree, and history is surely replete with instances of Bolshevist imperialism. But one must remember, that Lenin himself deplored socialism, and believed that an elite vanguard must be responsible for all meaningful action within the state and between the states. Certain socialist teachings and economic practices are in concordance with the gospels.
That's the problem, isn't it? For every "socialist" who simply desires social justice, there's another "socialist" waiting in the wings who understands full well that the expansion of power affords him the opportunity to seize personal control in one arena or another. Power is concentrated and thus entenched rulers are corrupted. And what "vanguard" could possibly hold corruption at bay more effectively than the Constitutional separation of powers?
But my point is that Lenin was not a Socialist, and we do not know Marx's views on socialism because he never spent any significant amount of time on the subject.
And you are right, the U.S. constitution is far superior to the political treaties of the Bolsheviks.
But there are other options. For instance the experiments being carried out in Bolivia, and the economic practices of let's say Anarchist Spain, before it was crushed by a combination of Fascist, Bolshevik, and Capitalist forces
you can still have seperation of powers in a socialism economy. there is no reason you couldnt. and you with the bolivian argument. thats a failed country. the free market gave them a path to growth and stablity after the gross stagflation period yet they still failed to correct their economy. they have been talking about the road to recovery for 15 years. update- no progress
One problem that people like Michael Moore never seem to address is that whatever type of economic system we have, people will still act like self interested beings. That is just our nature. Now of course the Church attempts to get us to think beyond ourselves and there are other social structures that attempt to do the same thing. However, getting rid of capitalism does not eliminate our basically selfish tendencies. It just changes the resulting problems from those tendencies.
I do not believe that human beings are inherently wicked. For the first 95% or so of our existence we were completely egalitarian and did not war with one another. War is a luxury afforded by the stratification of society
A lot of Fr. Barron's videos make sense. But he is totally uninformed here. For one thing, he mistakes the USSR and other so-called socialist states for socialism. He is fooled by the propaganda of fake socialists. See Noam Chomksy's "The Soviet Union Versus Socialism."
Also, Fr. Barron mistakes capitalism's theories about itself for actually existing capitalism. For example, capitalism preserves free enterprise for the few, and destroys it for the many, contrary to its claims.
roxykattx 1 week ago
Father, I've listened to the talk you have posted on the website on this issue, and I like it very much, but I have one concern/disagreement with it. You mentioned that profit is the only legitimate measurement of the growth of an economy. My concern is that profit, if defined strictly in terms of monetary gain, fails to take into account the unpaid housework/ other unpaid work that people, mostly women, do. Is there some church-approved way to redefine growth which takes this into account?
JWForce1059 1 week ago
It is not so much the idea of "profit as measurement" that I'm taking issue with, but how "profit" can be expanded to measure all wealth while still serving as a useful measure of economic growth.
JWForce1059 1 week ago
Thanks father for another excellent video. I love Michael Moore and thank God for the spirit of concern for his fellow man an catholic witness. I'm a Canadian, and he rather likes quite a bit about our modified market system. You have encouraged me to look up this encyclical and I must say that pope JPII's "Laborem Exercens" "On Human Work" is one of the very best things I have ever read on the whole domain of work and economies. A person couild get pretty well educated on your videos alone.
Youdamana 1 week ago
@Youdamana i agree fellow canadian
Canadianloyalist123 1 week ago
I believe as Milton Friedman said no system has yet been discovered that has destroyed poverty like capitalism has. When we see "bad" capitalism, it's usually because of government intervention which props up some companies and chooses winners. This is a distortion of capitalism. In its real form, capitalism favors the poor. Tom Woods, who wrote "How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization" and has appeared in the likewise named EWTN series, is a strong proponent of libertarianism.
phil8888 3 weeks ago
Father Barron,thank you for your video and your thoughts.Having said that,I would like to suggest that you read GK.Ghesterton,or Hillair Belloc and other works of "Distributism".This model of economics has been found productive,efficient,and moral.Check out " The Mondragon experiment" on Youtube. Short Documentary!
777bal 1 month ago
A church and a family are based on socialism, not capitalism and they are the basis for society, commun-ity. Let us hope they work contrary to common believe. Is your work ever done at home? Then why is there not enough work for many in a capitalistic system? How much is love worth if you hold on to it? Meanwhile, money appreciates when you hoard it.
1wordmanymystycs 1 month ago
@1wordmanymystycs You forgot to mention that the military, police and government itself is socialist. Until these rabid "free market" types argue to privatize the military and start tendering contracts for "government services providers", they are plain and simple hypocrites. Of course they won't, because they (rightly) understand that the protection of lives cannot be left to private corporations. But what's the difference between protecting them from violence and protecting them from illness?
CoryTheRaven 3 weeks ago
My post should read "capitalism" falls into corruption...Which system is more ethical, one that relies on free exchange, or one which relies on special government privileges for a few and denies access to the majority? Upward mobility is greatest in capitalist societies. The poor are wealthiest in capitalist societies. Governments that protect private property rights but generally stay out of the market lead to prosperity.
runr100 1 month ago
@wordonfirevideo If the Church is concerned about the ways "capitalism" falls corruption (it does so when government chooses winners and losers, which is actually socialism, not capitalism), it should be much more concerned with the ways in which socialism falls into corruption. Socialism promises access to all but has always resulted in abject poverty for the majority and services for the few who can bribe or negotiate well. Which system is more ethical, one that relies on free exchange (cap
runr100 1 month ago
@1melianthus Thank you for being a voice of economic reason here. In other YouTube clips, Father mentions that scientists should stay out of theological debates because they aren't well schooled. Economics is by far the most important issue affecting our lives, and the Catholic Church has decided to voice its opinion without educating itself. Father, let's start very basic: What creates wealth? Hundreds of years ago, everyone was poor. Now some countries lag behind while others are very we
runr100 1 month ago
@runr100 Appreciate the condescension. My take is formed by the Catholic Church's densely textured social teaching. The Church enthusiastically embraces the market economy and its method of wealth-generation. It is, at the same time, concerned about ways that capitalism falls into corruption.
wordonfirevideo 1 month ago
@wordonfirevideo
Fr. Barron, capitalism is inherently corrupt. The relationship of capitalist to worker is one of exploitation in that capitalist enterprise is compelled to pay labour less than the value of that labour or that business will die. Thus, profit in the sense of gain for oneself, and which is not a sin, should not be confused with profit under capitalism, which is always exploitative. The capitalist gets more than he gives. That is his profit, and it comes from the worker.
roxykattx 1 week ago
Corrupt and decadent forms of capitalism aren't capitalism. Capitalism means ownership of private property and protection of private property rights. The Swiss are big believers in capitalism. Contrast this with socialist philosophy, which is using the guns of the state to steal from the haves to give to the have nots. The Bible is strongly against stealing and does respect individuals. I am shocked that the Catholic Church, with all the poverty it presides over in the world, has not learn
runr100 1 month ago
The failure of the public to understand that the nature of the government is one which creates policies without regard to secondary and tertiary consequences is simply astonishing to me. What happened in 2008 was the market attempting to CORRECT the distortions that were introduced due to bad public policy. And as long as people opt for the easy villain, the rich, they will continue to fail to understand that the federal governments monetary and housing policies were to blame.
1melianthus 1 month ago
Fr. Barron makes a critical mistake when he claims that the financial markets were deregulated. They, in fact, were more heavily regulated than they ever had been in history. In the housing market, it was not capitalist greed, but Congressional meddling upon which this whole mess rests. They wrote regulations which encouraged banks to loan money to people who couldn't afford the debt load they were taking on, and even further, they created sanctions when the banks refused to comply.
1melianthus 1 month ago
Damning Socialism & Communism by looking at the regimes of the last century is as fair as damning the Church by looking at the seamier side of the Church's history. An alternative to the evils of capitalism is not godless Socialism, but Christ-centred socialism. (Acts 2 has no profit motive, no entrepreneurs, no private ownership.) Jesus was not a capitalist, any more than He was a Socialist; He preached the Kingdom of God. Both are wrong, neither is good, both are judged by God.
5355vbxjbj76rvn 2 months ago
John Paul's statement is complete but not clear. It speaks of injustice undermining the free market. That's an oxymoronic garden path sentence, if JP2 uttered it. I can be clearer, despite Barron saying it'd be hard to improve on it. Here goes: A true free market is not ruled but is protected by bans of those who attempt to rule in the absence of regulations.--thieves, ponzi schemers, government employees doing insider trading; government corporations, murderers and maimers, liars and priests.
1emanres 2 months ago
Barron here says, in ambiguous Catholiceze, what he should have put in plain English, but didn't, because he's required as a priest never to argue clearly, as it would clarify the errors of influential church officials. Here, Barron says, as I put in plain English, that politics, not the efficiencies of the free market, should regulate the free market. In other words, he's saying the efficiencies should be blamed, not the shallow shortsighted groupthink of rather demented government politics.
1emanres 2 months ago
I rejoined the church and enthusiastically gave to the poor and the church until I realized I had been invited back in just to question me and kick me back out again--and also pick my pocket. I think Richmond diocese finances operatives who perpetrate technology theft from Virginia Tech and elsewhere and sell it on the international market. Asked, I explicitly blamed the mafia; but they took offense, for they knew that the catholic mafia contains vatical intel people. I came. I went. I cried.
1emanres 2 months ago
"Some version of" [pause] "capitalism is an intrinsically evil system." Is a garden path sentence indicative of doubt. The fact is, in Jesus' day, Rabbi Hillel had died when Jesus was 12 or 13. Hillel had put an end to the Jewish law requiring a business loan be entirely forgiven after seven years or some customary span of time, for people were borrowing and simply never paying it back and still demanding more loans. Jesus defended Hillel's innovative loan law in the parable of the talents.
1emanres 2 months ago
I think you are confusing Socialism in Nazi Germany and Democratic Socialism in the Sweden etc.
MegaWallaceR 2 months ago
Acts 4:32-37 through Acts 5:1-11 seems to go against the opinion in this video as does James 2:1-7.
CalJennings 4 months ago in playlist Capitalism A love story 2
@CalJennings The scripture verses you reference and this commentary actually do not go against each other. James 2 has nothing to do with this video. How do these Bible verses contradict what Fr. Barron was saying? There is a difference between a socialist society of people not of one mind and the early church community of people who are of one mind.
Montfortracing 4 months ago
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@CalJennings "Acts 4:32-37 through Acts 5:1-11 seems to go against the opinion in this video as does James 2:1-7."
Some people might think it seems that way. Others might think it doesn't. Thank God Christ gave us a church!
Mystagogia87 3 weeks ago
Michael Moore's definition of Capitalism (which is a silly term) includes Mercantilism, Corporate Welfare, Corporatism, etc. It's the latter kind of economic thinking, government colluding with business, that distorts markets, corrupts both government and business, and destroys freedom. Christ didn't say we look for benevolent tyrants, but tasked us directly with helping those in need. When government can do more than protect the Rule of Law, it becomes one more place for the power hungry to go.
worldofdraculas 5 months ago
We are not a capitalistic country, though there may be people who are capitalist. Even Adam and Ricardo stressed about the problems with concentrated capital. The term capitalism was used by Marx's dialectic materialism. So capitalism is a materialistic analysis of Free Market value ideas.
This contrast of capitalism and socialism is a false dichotemy if you take it under historical scrutiny.
sleepyhead4 5 months ago
Fr. Barron, thank so much for your videos. Your articulation of the faith is highly winsome—your explication of Thomas Aquinas is deeply moving! However, I have some reservations about your claims regarding capitalism, socialism, and their relation to Christianity. You argue that capitalism, when properly regulated, is reconcilable with Christianity. (Continued below)
riseaslarks 5 months ago
(Continued from above) But don’t some of capitalism’s basic assumptions about the human person and human relationships stand in contrast to the Gospel? For instance, capitalism presupposes that humans are, fundamentally, in competition with each other. How does this square with Christianity’s affirmation that, at rock bottom, humans are made for communion with one another? (Cont. below)
riseaslarks 5 months ago
(Continued from above) Where the capitalist system depends on each individual looking first to his or her own interests, the Gospel urges us to look first to the needs of the other. We are not fundamentally competitors; we are brothers and sisters whose relationships are characterized by shalom rather than self-interest. Furthermore, the law under capitalism functions not to bring us into closer communion with one another but rather to protect my property from you and vice versa. (Cont. below)
riseaslarks 5 months ago
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riseaslarks 5 months ago
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riseaslarks 5 months ago
(Continued from above) As you know, in both the Old and New Testaments the people of God exercise, or are at least are commanded to exercise, a kind of economic redistribution that is antithetical to the acquisitiveness of capitalism. From Yahweh’s mandate that Israel practice Jubilee to the communal sharing of the church in Acts, scripture affirms an economics that is wholly foreign to any version of capitalism on offer today. (Continued below)
riseaslarks 5 months ago
(Continued from above) Also, your critique of socialism is weak. Any intelligent Marxist would, like you, denounce the atrocities of Stalin, Pol Pot, et. al. But this does not mean that Socialism itself is worth abandoning. (Cont. below)
riseaslarks 5 months ago
(Continued from above) Rather, it means that Socialism, like Christianity, has often strayed from its founding ideals. If the Inquisition and the Crusades don’t render Christianity illegitimate (and I don’t think they do), then neither do the Gulag or the Killing Fields debunk socialism. We could also draw Capitalism into the mix here, too. For the market economy has contributed to human misery and bloodshed just as much as Christianity and Socialism have. (Cont. below)
riseaslarks 5 months ago
(Cont. from above) I understand that neither you nor the papal witness to which you appeal affirm an unregulated market, but I would ask you to consider how even highly regulated forms of capitalism still rely on presuppositions that are difficult to reconcile with the picture of human relationships and subjectivity found in Scripture. And I would encourage you to consider that Socialism might be more amenable to the Gospel than its repugnant historical incarnations would attest. (Cont. below)
riseaslarks 5 months ago
(Continued from above) Fr. Barron, I write this not in a spirit of antagonism, but in a genuine desire to dialogue about an area fraught with difficulty for all of us who want to take Christ, his kingdom, and the church seriously. Again, I very much admire your teaching. You have strengthened my faith, and I look forward to learning more from you!
riseaslarks 5 months ago
@riseaslarks Thanks for your engagement of this issue. Take a look at the closing sections of John Paul II's Centesimus Annus and you'll find the foundation for my argument. For the church, the market economy (the term it prefers to "capitalism") is the economic system that best corresponds to democracy in the measure that it is predicated upon the freedom and dignity of the individual. The church has no quarrel with "socialistic" elements within an overall market framework.
wordonfirevideo 5 months ago
@riseaslarks
I think your series of posts here makes a lot of sense -- especially about the different assumptions capitalism and Christianity make about human nature. Capitalism is at heart social darwinism, human beings as inherently and unavoidably in competition. I believe somewhere in his corpus C.S. Lewis says something to the effect that the centre of the devil's philosophy is that all things are in competition, that the universe is a kind of zero sum game.
roxykattx 1 week ago
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riseaslarks 5 months ago
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riseaslarks 5 months ago
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riseaslarks 5 months ago
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riseaslarks 5 months ago
I loved his Gold watch....LOL
miulum 5 months ago
@miulum Friend, I'd be willing to bet I spent less on that watch than you spent on yours.
wordonfirevideo 5 months ago 6
@wordonfirevideo Maybe. But the difference between you and me is that I am not Catholic, and you are or you want or try to be. You are not consequent with what Jesus Christ wanted to this World, and you know that. If you sell that Watch, you can use this money to make this World a best place for an entire family. You are just the son of the irracional combination of this economic system and a beautifull religion that you do not deserve to have.
miulum 5 months ago
Clergy was one of two privileged classes in the feudal system. It sold indulgences for $ so rich could buy of their sins. It had enormous riches.It slaughtered people during the inquisition,the crusades. It supported Nazis (Reichskonkordat), and the massacre on Serbs (because of their religion). It legitimated monarchs as descendents of god. The new testament on the other hand is very left wing socialist. Compare the two. The old testament vengeful god is what the church uses for hate politics.
seezarorest 5 months ago
What we usually think of as Socialist or Communist systems are both left wing and authoritarian. There are left wing libertarian forms of socialism as well. The only true communism to ever exist are purely voluntary communes, which include monasteries. I don't think those are against the church.
Personally I tend toward Geo-Libertarianism. This system teaches that it is wrong to monopolize natural resources without compensating those denied access. Biblical Gleaners Rights are one form of this.
magister343 7 months ago
At first I thought you were going to mention a different Michael Moore vs Sean Hannity conversation, but that had more to do with War than the Economy:
Hannity said that bin Laden and Al Qaeda are the enemy. Moore said Christ taught us to love our enemies, and asked Sean if he loves bin Laden and other terrorists. Hannity says that "Well, yeah, but I love them in that I want to kill them." With a very concerned look Moore says "I don't think that's the kind of love Christ was talking about."
magister343 7 months ago
Capitalism is a corrupt system, in that it is a fallen form of Free Enterprise that places too much importance on the few who own vast amounts of capital rather than on fostering enterprise among all actors in the economy. The Church's economic ideology of Distributionism says the problem with capitalism is not too many capitalists but too few.
Gvernment regulation often favors the few, leading to Crony Capitalism. A better system would not tax income, but collect a fee on wealth it protects.
magister343 7 months ago
What do you think about the christian anarchism of Dorothy Day and the economic distributism of G.K. Chesterton? After all, These people were traditional catholics who derived much of their their political understanding from catholic social teaching, yet they were anti-capitalist.
philpil100 7 months ago 2
@philpil100 I like Chesterton in this regard much more than Dorothy Day. You're quite right in saying that they were critics of capitalism--as are the Popes of the twentieth century, if by "capitalism" you mean the market economy in an undisciplined form.
wordonfirevideo 7 months ago
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philpil100 7 months ago
I also dare to disagree with JPII. I don't think his economic views fall into his infallibility prerogative. I rather like the views of liberation theology except when they substitute religious figures for revolutionary ideals, but in terms of seeking social justice, it does reflect, I think, the aim of the church towards a sharing and giving society, which socialism clearly offers, despite the perversion that some "socialist" leaders have rendered.
manuelturcios 8 months ago
Maybe you have a misinterpretation of what socialism really is. Take Hugo Chavez in Venezuela, a catholic man. He is a socialist and he's done so much good for his country, regardless of the lies you will see on US mainstream media. Poverty down 40% etc. socialism is demonized harshly in US because it represents a good alternative to this Opportunist unfair system that the oligarchy is afraid to lose. maybe you are a bit disconnected from the real world, I like your videos but shame on this one.
manuelturcios 8 months ago
@manuelturcios Come on, man! You're seriously proposing Hugo Chavez as a political model? He has systematically denied the human rights of millions.
wordonfirevideo 8 months ago
@wordonfirevideo I do, maybe you watch too much fox news or maybe you think that the Mainstream media in the US tells you the truth, I invite you to do some research into the matter, you'll be surprised.
manuelturcios 8 months ago
So using your claims. Who has Hugo Chavez waged war with? he prints the venezuelan constitution on the basic grains. yet In the US media he is called a drug addict because he chews coca leaves, a dictator yet he has been democratically elected. yet bush is so praised yet he is responsible for the killing of millions, he is a drunk and you seem to believe he is christian. JPII even feared bush might be the antichrist? i bet your image of bush isn't as bad as chavez, I bet.
manuelturcios 8 months ago
@wordonfirevideo And I would love it if you tell me what Human rights he has violated? Millions? you are a smart man, come on, don't make declarations that you know that you are not thoroughly informed with. leave that to protestants and right wing nut jobs.
manuelturcios 8 months ago
@manuelturcios Oh I don't know: freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion--just for starts. And I'm not being cavalier about the number. I'm referring to his countrymen.
wordonfirevideo 8 months ago
@wordonfirevideo I'm sorry father but you could not be more mistaken about this. Imagine for a minute if privately owned News outlet like CNN, CBS, FOX etc.. started calling to assassinate the president or to overthrow him, do you really think the US government would just allow this? it's crazy, you have no Idea how the privately owned and biased media in Venezuela did this vehemently, if anything it tolerated that too much. it's absurd to mention freedom of religion since Chavez is a catholic.
manuelturcios 8 months ago
@manuelturcios hugo chavez is not a catholic in practice. only in word.
masteroftheforce1 6 months ago
I'm Catholic, But I disagree with u on this. Since you started the video It was blatantly evident that you were building up into a praising of capitalism. I cannot take you seriously as a priest if you say that from Catholicism rises a favor of capitalism over socialism. From reading acts of the apostles it is evident that the early church SHARED its wealth among itself, met each others necessities. Present capitalism is an EVIL, opportunist neoliberalist machine that wages war for profit.
manuelturcios 8 months ago
He puts too much the popes in a pedestal!,.. It is well know that many popes were very corrupted through out history..
arnaldo1124 9 months ago
You do not know what socialism is, you are thinking communism, you showed a picture of russia. That is not what socailism is. Socialism by theoretical definition is democratic control of the workplace and of political institutions by the workers/citizens themselves. Communism is when you don't own anything. Everything is evenly shared. Socialism enbraces a market system, it is just fair to everyoneone subjected to it. It is also in accordence with Christianity because it protects the poor.
criticlyminded 10 months ago
This was a terrific video in terms of learning which is the Church's real position on the economy and the state. Yet, we have to be careful, not all socialism is Marxist, there are social democracies, there are also the Nordic economic models. This distinction is neither made by Michael Moore nor Father Barron.
prosario2008 11 months ago
I find this man's message sincere, and basically right. However, it seems to me (not educated in economics) that as long as a capitalist system is in place, there will be people who work within the law to exploit others ignorant of those loopholes. After enough exploitation has occurred, the gov't closes that loophole, only for another to appear, ad infinitum.
Also, socialism (as evidenced by most European economies) supports all of the precepts laid out by Pope John Paul II. I'm just saying...
barifkin31 11 months ago
I'm curious what you think about Distributism as described by G.K. Chesterton and Hilaire Belloc?
KarliJoanne 11 months ago
I think he is confusing communism or Marxism with socialism..
xadam2dudex 1 year ago
It is only when one had funds greater than what was requisite to attend to bare necessities that one began to evolve to the cultural level of creating civilization. This is why Americans, not primitive men, landed on the Moon. The notion of socialist Christianity is patent fraud. Socialism posits the state as the all-provident deity. It's a materialist ideology of abject serfdom. In Christianity, the path to salvation, to holiness, is predicated on the individual's freedom to choose how to live.
viriatoist 1 year ago
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viriatoist 1 year ago
the Relationship we Catholics have with capitalism and socialism is always so tenuous to say the least. The biggest problem I have is when either capitalists or socialists (even the "soft" versions of those systems/ideologies) try to reduce Christ to a Champion of their form of materialism...truth is, Christ was not a socialist nor was he a capitalist and I don't know if he would be too interested in condemning each economic system even though he could easily do so.
equitemcroce 1 year ago
Hmm.. Interesting points, but I would like to add that it was the Catholic church that supported and in fact outlined a universal healthcare plan taking almost every element from socialist healthcare plans. Also, as it is, the difference between capitalism and socialism is the difference between business and government. While socialism is not perfect, it has the right intentions to look after everyone most importantly those who need help the most. Only in the wrong hands, I argue, is it immoral.
aleams22 1 year ago
While being an atheist myself - I do however note that Jesus was a leader of jewish rebellion against the ruling class. He advocated common ownership, and so on. However when Christianity has gained popularity in Italy & also started to get big in Rome, emperor Constantine was getting worried and decided to incorporate Christianity into his regime.
Thus Christianity lost its revolutionary character. Jesus was really proto-socialistic.
MazdakTV 1 year ago
actually, free markets were theorized by Catholic priest 700 years before Adam Smith
tonygmilan7 1 year ago
As a Socialist I am insulted that you would think socialism is barbaric. Come on if practiced properly anything can work. The indigenous communities before the europeans were socialist and they lived great lives!
yankee82090 1 year ago
very interesting.
Especially now that I'm doing a course at my university that's called Political theology.
We are going through books like The myth of the state as saviour by William T. Cavanaugh, De civitate Dei and some works by Yoder and Hauerwas.
It's been really thought-provoking and it will be interesting to see what more we will deal with.
Keep up the good work :D
woweixiaomiandui 1 year ago
I particularly liked the end, when you quoted JPII. Whether capitalism is in consonance with or against Catholic Social Teaching depends on ones definition. Sadly, people have various definitions of it. And sometimes, we could innocently be supporting the notion that stifles human freedom and steps on human dignity.
lorenzomolo 1 year ago
the amusing thing i find about michael moores moral critism of excessive wealth, is that he himself has been made rich by the capatilist system. I must also add the church itself is decorated in the trappings of excessive wealth, both these things are just examples of the religous not practising what they preach. Anyway Michael moores documentries are all filled with ignorance and flippant stupidity.
chuckstar666 1 year ago
i agree with you 100 percent. and sometimes he asks the wrong questions, questions that shouldnt be asked. like would you sign your kid up for the military, uhhh first off no its not my choice its my childs choice if he or she is 18 and she wants to be in the military more power to them, but to put a parent on the spot like that is ridiculous because how are they supposed to answer if they say yes they are looked at as war mongering idiots if they say no they are unpatriotic and cowardice.
scienceatheism 1 year ago
There is definitely a misunderstanding here. I saw Moore on an interview with Charlie Rose & he wasn't refering to the small / medium size businesses and basic captialism. What Moore was refering to in the movie was the shenanigans going on in Wall St. with Goldman Sachs
all028 1 year ago
Modern Capitalism is an Evil. It brings out the brightest minds for hire for the wrong reasons. Watch "Dr Colin Ross on C.I.A mind control" and learn what these Capitalists are doing with our invested monies. They are so twisted that they have us investing into our own demise. What Dr Ross states in that video has been declassified by the goverenment. What they are doing since 1983 are crimes against humanity. Mind control by remote means is the sign of the beast on our heads 666ick. Peace out.
7711ish 1 year ago
if i work hard and get rich, no one is entitled the product of my effort regardless of how much they need my money. and if private enterprises aren't trusted with the economy, then we're left with the government, which is incompetent and enforces its rule with force.that is what the church sided with in the middle ages and it was a horrible system. if a ceo doesn't get rich by the product of his inteligence, then a king will get rich with the product of yours.
pleeppleep 1 year ago
Is Michael Moore rich?
thoughtadventure 1 year ago
this is why many catholics are leaving the church in latin america,
stealhgerm007 1 year ago
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zkmplayer 1 year ago
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zkmplayer 1 year ago
wait, so christians should be socilats and pay the gov the highest taxes, then give whats left 10% to the church?
yes, im sure thatgs how people wanna live.
quezcatol 1 year ago
to my mind a main point in the criticism of capitalism ought to be that it turns the view away from the things you can't measure. and i dont think that this is only a symptom. capitalism is all about calculation: when you give something, you want something back, that has the same or a higher value. i think that stands in strong contrast to the concept of love. i believe there is no calculation in god. i'm a bit disappointed of your dogmatic argumentation here.
mexybeck 1 year ago
the economy is being sucked dry by design by the private banks that have done this over and over through out history
61shirley 1 year ago
"once the demands of nescessity and propriety of your life have been met in ur life everthing else u own belongs to the poor." beautiful.
Pisces31660 1 year ago
disapointing, there is not just capitalism and socialism, they are concepts of the 18. and 19th century - thats what Moore is saying we need new ideas, ideas which also better fit to the teachings of Jesus, ind is the profit motiv morally praisable just because the Pope says it - surly not
wildhias 1 year ago
Distributism is the Catholic solution
TheEcumenator 1 year ago
They just showed Moores' docu' on Ch4 here, interesting that bit about the juvenile correction centre that had been privatized and kids with minor and first offences being banged away for up to 11months by a corrupt judge fleecing the tax payer! The NHS have privatised the kidney dialisis service here and people who don't need it are being brow beaten into dialisis by their GP's for some reason.
MarkB1ngham 1 year ago
I love you so, and don't want to be irreverent but this is the first time I really thing you miss the point and yr views about socialism are so unfair, my father! As unfair as the views of many about us. Anyway, I am thankful that you are in this world; God bless you, and O, Lord, may humanity have a real system where no more indecent poverty provoked by indecent profit will be seen as fair!
Onlylovesaves 1 year ago
Dear father ! I am catholic AND socialist, the best people in the world that I met were my brazilian "red"priests of the Theologie of Liberation who lived in accord with the teachings of Jesus.(...)
Onlylovesaves 1 year ago
Do you tend to like Moore's films, Father? I do. They're not perfectly objective of course (what political movie is?), but I think he has raised many valid points and only shakes cages that need shaking. I know you don't like Bill Maher, but this point reminds me of Maher speaking to a priest outside the Vatican in 'Religulous', asking if Jesus would support the 'palatial' Vatican and the money wrapped up in Christianity.
PS. Will you be replying to my personal letter?
leighgridley 1 year ago
I'm not defending socialism per se, but it does seem like a pretty specious argument to go from the observation that the implementation of socialism, or variants of socialism, failed in spectacular fashion in a handful of countries necessarily implies that socialism itself is completely unworkable. Just because I fell down the first 5 times I tried waterskiing didn't mean I was incapable of waterskiing. To be fair, different variants of socialism have been applied reasonably successfully.
dbrandow 1 year ago
its scientifically proven through brain scans that money turns people into humans who behave exactly like junkies when they get a hit of cocaine its not just a moral issue humans are incapable of dealing with the drug known as money, evidence of this goes back to biblical times.
The power of money needs to be taken out of the equation one of the best ways i have seen are democratic workplaces where everyone actually does own the workplace and have a vested non greed based interest in it.
Gantzer1 1 year ago
I guess the more interesting question is this: why does America, which so many claim to be a "Christian nation", seem to have so much trouble with greed, corruption, and other excesses born of capitalism?
I won't blame religion specifically, although many of the most prominent business leaders and conservative politicians claim to be very Christian. It seems that contemporary American Christianity could do a much better job of instilling its safeguards against greed and economic injustice.
jontv 1 year ago
I don't think that the United States has more of a problem with greed and corruption than other nations, but that you're just interpreting the differing scale of things. There is plenty of both, of course, but it I think it just gets a lot of attention because the US is the wealthiest country on earth by far and the one where excesses and abuse of excesses are most visible.
jackbauerinvc 1 year ago
@jackbauerinvc - That kind of thing is hard to measure. But I wasn't really saying that America is the most corrupt -- only that there is a stark contrast between many people's view of America as a "Christian nation" (and we are one of the most devout of the Western powers) and our problems with greed and corruption. I take for granted the idea that Christianity (like most religions) is AGAINST greed and corruption, so if America is so Christian, seems like we should have less.
jontv 1 year ago
This kind of reasoned response makes your videos worthwhile. I haven't seen the movie yet, but I find Moore provocative, and I'll catch it on video. We'd be better off if all capitalists shared the Catholic take on it. Sadly, capitalism leads too easily to the excesses you decry.
My biggest quibble would be that "socialism" should be defined. You seem to mean totalitarian socialism, when I doubt that's what Moore advocates. He is more a labor union, social welfare type socialist.
jontv 1 year ago
Democracy and capitalism sound great in theory, but fails in practice just like any other social-economic systems in the past. Never was and never will be in favour of small people.
moveaxebx 1 year ago
I doubt his intention is directed to Michael Moore's movie.. but just to look at it from a Catholic perspective.. with allegiance to being Catholic - not moore's movie.. It's just a discussion on the movie... this isn't political..
amdgmcman 2 years ago
father! take of your glasses and open your eyes
elgooldo 2 years ago
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mixarm 2 years ago
the whole POINT of the movie is how corruption came out of capitalism, and this guy doesn't mention it at ALL. Moore is not against the free market all together, just some of the gross injustices it makes possible, such as the lack of oversight that caused the economy to be where it is. This guy is out to make Moore's arguments look somewhat reasonable, but really inconsequential in the whole scheme of capitalism's efficacy by ignoring his FAR most important points, HUGE corporate scandals.
scubakidtrpt1 2 years ago
donate now! were does the money go father???
elgooldo 2 years ago
While you're asking people who lived in socialist states for their thoughts on socialism, you might also want to ask Iraqis and Afghans for their thoughts on capitalism's violent march towards exponential economic growth in a finite world of natural resources.
SoaringEagle5344 2 years ago
donate now! does this go to help the poor?
elgooldo 2 years ago
Printing money debases the purchasing power of money already in circulation. So if you have a savings of say, 1000 dollars, but the dollar loses 10% of it's purchasing power, you still have 1000 in the bank, but only 900 dollars of purchasing power. A gold standard would prevent Government from stealing wealth right out from under it's citizens. The central bank and all of the so called "regulations", wage and price controls, all of these things are hostile to Capitalism.
rgvhen 2 years ago
True capitalism is one void of corporatism, protectionism, mercantilistic tendency, unsound money, (ie: fiat paper) and government bailouts (printing money to prop up institutions that the market would have purged) yet despite the plague of these interventions that hinder the capitalist structure, we have enjoyed the highest standard of living compared to other countries. Sadly, Michael Moore equates all of the above plagues as if they were inherently "Capitalist", which they are not.
rgvhen 2 years ago
And it's pretty sad that the catholic church falls short in this regard. Because if it had a proper intellectual understanding of modern industrial capitalism and how it plays with people's lives, it could speak with an infinitely greater moral clarity and authority about our lives, and not just rely on tradition to reel people in.
But we know that's not going to happen. They're just as much bound by society's politics as any other institution.
rbassilian 2 years ago
@rbassilian
Just shows how ignorant and how little you know.
moveaxebx 1 year ago
I know you are but what am I?
rbassilian 1 year ago
Yeah, unfortunately I think Fr. Barron not only falls short here, he betrays how religion always falls short when it comes to material issues. The catholic church in general seems to love to conflate modern industrial capitalism, where a tiny minority of people run the entire world for themselves, with this mythical farmer's market capitalism where everyone's free to produce and trade.
rbassilian 2 years ago
test
MarkB1ngham 2 years ago
The rules are quite simple and unambiguous FrBarron, thou shalt not steal and thou shalt not lie , stealing and lying the building blocks of capitalism, stealing from workers, customers and future generations and other orgasnisms in the biosphere, you cannot get something for nothing/profit in the real world, the laws of physics are not negotiable!. Lies are the speciality of capitalism's ally the advertising industry.here endeth the lesson.
MarkB1ngham 2 years ago
Absolutely enjoying watching you on EWTN!
We all have our charism in life and you have shared yours in such a lovely way with the rest of us.
Thank you.
icommservices 2 years ago
ill comment on real life.what do you do when you entrust your family to the catholic schools and church and all you receive is pain.dont tell me to pray and offer it up,i did that from the very beginning.i kow JESUS is alive in me, but iam tired of your balogne.
natty1999 2 years ago
Fr. Barron, don't you and Cardinal George and all your students at Mundelein all have more than 1 shirt in your closet?
The money question is bothering me. I just graduated from college, and I'm trying to decide how important money will be to me in life. I'd like to be able to travel and stay at nice hotels and watch blu-ray, but I wonder if I can justify saving up for a DVD or piece of furniture when I'm always walking by hungry and cold people on the street.
Jugglable 2 years ago
I wouldn't take Chrysostom's recommendation literally, but I would allow its challenge to reach into your heart. The key is detachment and having the constant openness to generosity. One way to start is by tithing, giving 10 percent of your income away to the poor.
wordonfirevideo 2 years ago 2
Why not take it literally? It seems to me the only justification for not taking it literally is convenience. So what is stopping me? Maybe greed.
Jugglable 2 years ago
What exactly does it mean to say "Gross Injustice"? Does this mean outlandish profits? Because if it does, it only shows that profits aren't properly understood. Or does this mean fraudulent advertising, manipulation ect... I'm curious about what "Gross Injustice" is supposed to mean.
Thanks!
God Bless.
tyrantslayer999 2 years ago
If we were to apply what Francis George of Chicago said, why isn't the Vatican giving away its vast fortune to the poor? Why is so much of their money spent on robes and decorations and giving cardinals and bishops a plush life? Why does the Vatican have its own bank, and have dealings with the international bankers? Why are they a major stockholder of Amer. Express?
Could it be that the Vatican is no different from Fortune 500 companies?
Power & money?
Sell fear to gullible followers?
PrinceandElizabeth 2 years ago
A quick answer: it's a little glib to talk about the Vatican just "giving away" its "vast fortune." I mean, how do you "give away" the Sistine Chapel? Or the Vatican Museums? Or St. Peter's? Much of the Vatican's wealth is in pretty much non-transferable form. Every year, the Pope has to raise money from around the Catholic world in order to make ends meet at the Vatican. And it has a bank because it's a sovereign state and needs money to operate.
wordonfirevideo 2 years ago 9
@PrinceandElizabeth Incidentally, there are several major American universities with a larger liquid endowment than the Vatican's annual budget.
benabaxter 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@PrinceandElizabeth For perspective: Several major American universities with a larger liquid endowment than the Vatican's annual budget.
benabaxter 1 year ago
@PrinceandElizabeth
"Be not afraid"; furthermore, the current Pope's car(when he was a Cardinal) was a volkswagon Golf....
Lastly, if you think someone becomes a priest in order to gain power and money, you are mistaken.
yankeesuperstar 1 year ago
Could you say something about the Westboro Baptist Church? that picket Gay and Military Funeral's? If you don't know about them search them on youtube.
DarkSuccesses 2 years ago
I think that that practice is wicked. They should be ashamed of themselves.
wordonfirevideo 2 years ago 9
@wordonfirevideo I know thats why I want you to make a video.
DarkSuccesses 2 years ago
Sweden is socialist country only by the standards of right wing americans, we have private property and a free market, only with a bit more government control than some other systems.
We are hardly the happiest people in the world.
Our suicide rate is top five in the world, it is not proof beyond doubt that we are unhappy but still a clear indication.
TurumbarTurin 2 years ago
Why do you suppose there is such a high rate of suicide?
SpeakaDaEnglish 2 years ago
Dunno man, I am sure there are lots of studies about it so if you really are interested you can look them up.
TurumbarTurin 2 years ago
Fascinating video, Fr. Barron.
You really do some awesome work here. You always make me stop *dead in my tracks* and go "whoa, I hadn't expected that".
My mother needs to see your videos. She's terrified of Catholics and I have no idea why (we're a Methodist family but I love Catholic insights on topics like this). Well, come to think of it, Ma herself has no idea why she's so terrified of Catholics. LOL!
Keep up the great work, Father. Thanks for making me stop and think.
tango2romeo 2 years ago
Fr. Barron:
What do you think about Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh's constant refrain that President Obama is a socialist. Does the Church have some sort of obligation o come out and refute these assertions?
jtblaw 2 years ago
I can't believe I watched this whole thing and was interested throughout. I'm not Catholic, I left the faith years ago, and it's refreshing to see someone talk about Catholicism in an honest way that is not driven by an agenda. So much in the media, we have Republican conservatives bogarting Christianity and claiming that God wants them to be rich. It's sickening. It's nice to hear some people's beliefs are genuine and aren't politically tainted. A worthy discussion is taking place here.
4realzyo 2 years ago
Ah, then a most clever one amongst you replies to me and says: "Ah! But we don't need Christ! The Church tells us about politics. Christ is superfluous."
spraguelt 2 years ago
The irony is that to even have this disagreement, on a deeper level, Michael Moore and Father Barron must first agree! They must first agree that there is a politics sanctioned by Christ and then have a tussle over it! And so the politics that dares not speak its name informs the debates on this forum: Christendom. You're all fighting over the proper institutions, practices, modes of distribution that you hope (!) are sanctioned by Christ. But what if Christ didn't sanction (your) politics?
spraguelt 2 years ago
spraguelt: I think that you should curb your hermeneutic of suspicion.
TELEMACUS800 2 years ago
It's clear that this forum (following Barron's lead) is turning into various attempts, from the Left, Right and Center to align the Church with a certain society, a certain social mode. Politics attempts to marry theology, the pre-Christian ubiquity of attempts at civil religion resurface. It is not enough to belong to Rome or Washington DC, the people want to see their gov't & institutions sacralized. So the mad anti-Christian scramble for the definition of Christendom ensues on all sides...
spraguelt 2 years ago
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spraguelt 2 years ago
No! The Church never identifies itself with any particular political or economic arrangement. It surveys them all and makes judgments, some relatively positive others relatively negative. But there is no properly Catholic political party.
wordonfirevideo 2 years ago
Moore seems to equate Jesus with Marx and that is definitely not the message of Christianity. promoting the heresy of the marx liberation theology
jerrysmith29 2 years ago
Michael Moore only want play the Catholic card when is convenient for him; Jesus would call him hypocrite Pharisee
jerrysmith29 2 years ago
Michael Moore Hipocrasy don't foget that he disagree with the Catholic teaching about issues like gay marriage, abortion and euthanasia
jerrysmith29 2 years ago
MOORE WAS INCORRECT in the interview with Hannity about the gospel reading. The interview was on October 6. The Gospel reading from the Sunday before was NOT about the rich young ruler Mathew 11:25-30
Michael Moore was Hipocrasy propaganda
jerrysmith29 2 years ago
and also socialism results in no harm. it is a flawed economic theory but what is being discribed here is political socialism/communism not the economic kind. and economies, capitalism and socialism are not evil and do not result in failure. it always humanity who mess up. rawls is right if only we could put on a veil of ignorance and then design a social contract. one problem with that is we would then have to follow it
sossy2233 2 years ago
now im just having too much fun. guys there are degrees of socialism and a free market economy. i come from a free market economy based on a social democracy. the goverment intervene on a regular basis to redistribute wealth and also in the healthcare system which is regarded in europe as a "market failure" which must be corrected. why is the american view always of the extreme ends of the spectrum. i never understood why a free country would focus on the extremes and not the middleground.
sossy2233 2 years ago
We can't really survive on just a "personal responsibility" ethic.
Personally, I need the banks and the markets to help me raise capital to (eventually!) own a home and raise a family.
I'd prefer it not to be that way but our society is not set up to promote family life, it's individualistic and most people don't seem to economically help each other, let alone the poorest.
mhopwood1 2 years ago
I've noticed that none of the posts have referred to the latest encyclical, "Caritas in veritate" - the beautiful Encyclical Letter of His Holiness Benedict XVI that takes Rerum Novarum and Centissimus Annus, which have been mentioned, to the next level - a system that Chesterton and Belloc called Distributism.
jackhockel 2 years ago
I love how when the Pope came out with the encyclical the Catholic house Republicans dismissed it as irrelevant to the issues facing America' economy
powereddrive 2 years ago
Friend, what you're saying is true, but it's a bit of a banality. Sure, we're a fallen race and thus all of our institutions will be marked by corruption and imperfection. But that doesn't mean that we opt for moral equivalency. The church is sharply critical of errant forms of the market economy, but it holds that socialism is inherently problematic in a way that the market economy is not.
wordonfirevideo 2 years ago
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spraguelt 2 years ago
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spraguelt 2 years ago
Friend, did you listen to my comments about the negative dimensions of capitalism? Did you hear my endorsement of some of Moore's perspective? Did you attend to my rehearsal of John Paul's criticism of unfettered capitalism? Come on, you're making me out to be J..D. Rockefeller! That said, like it or not, the church's social teaching stands against socialism, defined as a state control of the economy. It favors what it prefers to call the market economy--with proper restraints in place.
wordonfirevideo 2 years ago
But is this preference merely a reactionary stance in response to the brutal treatment of the Catholic Church by the Soviet Union and its satellites, or is it grounded in authentic beliefs concerning intra-national and international economic relations?
Bolshevism is no more a form of Socialism than what passes for a free market in the United States.
powereddrive 2 years ago
I understand this may be the wrong forum. But how do Catholics feel about what was said by members of the Church against the Cardinal who peformed mass at Senator Kennedy's funeral?
powereddrive 2 years ago
"Freedom has many difficulties, and democracy is not perfect. But WE have never had to put a WALL up to keep our people in, to prevent them from leaving us."
- John F Kennedy
CarcharodonMeg 2 years ago
That is true, and one of the reasons life America is so good is because the international economic equivalent of an AR-15 pointed at South America's head.
Ask the father about Archbishop Oscar Romero, and the Nuns who were murdered by Nationalist backed by American money
powereddrive 2 years ago
Which you somehow use to imply that socialist countries would NOT have used their money to finance international criminal activity? Sorry, but that's too idealistic for me. And don't equate standing up for freedom to defending international crime. Your comment is intriguing, but it has no place in this discussion.
CarcharodonMeg 2 years ago
Perhaps it is a matter of definition. I must ask what you mean by socialism, the Soviet model of a command and control economy than I would agree, and history is surely replete with instances of Bolshevist imperialism. But one must remember, that Lenin himself deplored socialism, and believed that an elite vanguard must be responsible for all meaningful action within the state and between the states. Certain socialist teachings and economic practices are in concordance with the gospels.
powereddrive 2 years ago
That's the problem, isn't it? For every "socialist" who simply desires social justice, there's another "socialist" waiting in the wings who understands full well that the expansion of power affords him the opportunity to seize personal control in one arena or another. Power is concentrated and thus entenched rulers are corrupted. And what "vanguard" could possibly hold corruption at bay more effectively than the Constitutional separation of powers?
CarcharodonMeg 2 years ago
But my point is that Lenin was not a Socialist, and we do not know Marx's views on socialism because he never spent any significant amount of time on the subject.
And you are right, the U.S. constitution is far superior to the political treaties of the Bolsheviks.
But there are other options. For instance the experiments being carried out in Bolivia, and the economic practices of let's say Anarchist Spain, before it was crushed by a combination of Fascist, Bolshevik, and Capitalist forces
powereddrive 2 years ago
you can still have seperation of powers in a socialism economy. there is no reason you couldnt. and you with the bolivian argument. thats a failed country. the free market gave them a path to growth and stablity after the gross stagflation period yet they still failed to correct their economy. they have been talking about the road to recovery for 15 years. update- no progress
sossy2233 2 years ago
One problem that people like Michael Moore never seem to address is that whatever type of economic system we have, people will still act like self interested beings. That is just our nature. Now of course the Church attempts to get us to think beyond ourselves and there are other social structures that attempt to do the same thing. However, getting rid of capitalism does not eliminate our basically selfish tendencies. It just changes the resulting problems from those tendencies.
stinkcat1492 2 years ago 3
I do not believe that human beings are inherently wicked. For the first 95% or so of our existence we were completely egalitarian and did not war with one another. War is a luxury afforded by the stratification of society
powereddrive 2 years ago