Myth: Israel Is A Democracy-Land Laws and Issues Since 1948

[JohnnyRock2000]

Sure you can call Israel a democracy, but in practice Arabs are 2nd and 3rd class citizens. The majority Jews create and enforce laws that make it so.

[Pooternackle]

Israel is not a democracy, but it IS the only state in the middle east with humanist laws and values. The only peoples it discriminates against are the muslims, but the muslims want nothing more than Israel's total and complete annihilation. I'd much rather live in a slum in Tel Aviv and continue to be non religious than to live in a palace of saudi arabia and practice a religion of hatred.

[rachelgolem]

Hey, nobody is afraid to sit next to Israelis on an airplane.

Put that in your Berkeley hash pipe and smoke it!!!

[NEKO2BOT]

My gosh, the standard Zionist propaganda is really quite weak, isn't it?

They have traded this semi-precious stones of wisdom back and forth so many times they think they are true but they seem pathetic to anyone who knows history.

You have to love the Israeli Professor Shlomo Sands who basically proves that virtually all of today's Jews are the sons and daughters of converts.

The real Jews are the Palestinians.

God does want the Jews to have Palestine - the Palestinians, that is.

[newmagen]

The most ironic aspect of this post, it barely being worthy of a response, is that the Palestinians never had a country. Palestine is a territory named as such by the Romans. The term "Palestinian" used to refer to Jews until the Arabs proclaimed themselves as such as yet another PR stunt. But I give it to the Arabs, the best PR people in the world. Turn their stupidity into victimhood. Bravo.

[LeMonde63]

Americans never had a country. The United States is a territory named as such by Europeans settlers. The term European settlers used to refer to Americans until the Indians proclaimed themselves as such as yet another PR stunt...

[Tomislavv2]

@newmagen

Beyond the fact that there was no state called "Palestine'' there was never a people called "Palestinians'' before 1948.Over 75% of the land in Vilaet Syria-Jerusalem(ottoman name for nowday Israel+surrionding area) belonged to Ottoman crown.

The Jews who have been expelled in 1948 from all Islamic states were also robbed.Just their land that was stolen was 4,5 times the seize of modern Israel

[caposton]

Israel is is surrounded by a bunch of psychopathic muslims who would jump at the chance to finish the work that Hitler started. Muslims have attacked the state of Israel on several occassions and they have gotten their asses whipped. Since they know that a military victory is impossible they have turned to the media with a bunch of lies and fairy tales (mostly). Don't try and give us this "peaceful muslims" crap because the world has seen on several occassions just how "peaceful" muslims are.

[Edhallick]

Say what you want, but Israel was a nation for thousands of years before "Palestine" was even a thought. Judaism was a religion for thousands of years before that psychopath Mohammed was even a thought in his mamma eyes. Israel existed until the Jews were expelled by the Romans in 135 AD and when they tried to come back, lo and behold who should they find living there but a bunch of anti-semetic women and child abusing fanatics.

[dtr0005]

An utter tragedy that, unfortunately, my country, the US, has whole-heartedly supported... Know that there are "thinkers" in the US who understand but are helpless to act....

[rulllar]

You pose an untrue question, you say if they left without being terrorised. Many were terrorised, by their own arab leaders lies, and many fled, in order to allow for the massacre of the Jews.

This is why they were not allowed back. Those that did not, and remained in peace, remain in peace today. Many of those that left, waited for the destruction of the Jews at the hands of the Arab military mob, were not allowed back. No nation would allow populations that wish to destroy them.

[oldjoe5]

60 years in miserable refugee camps not suifficient punishment for you?

[lakersownsuns]

israel is not a democracy

[matoki4u]

Even if we come out from your (wrong)point of view lakersownsuns, Israel is still much more of a democracy than any other country in that region...much much more!...;-)

[imprezatuner]

Great effort brother to expose so called "democracy"....

[LeMonde63]

See George Galloway debate Zionist hypocrisy on YOUTUBE.

/watch?v=3VUiM8t3QAg

See the debate below between tomislavvajs and myself for another example.

[tomislavvajs]

It is a fact that hudreds of thousands of arabs left Israel in 1948 and even more jews left arab countries in same time and their property bilions of $ was conficascated by all arab regimes. Today actualy 23000 people are alive of those who left Israel in 1948. The remianing number have claimes as decendens of refuges or returnes. I would remined you that in ex jugoslavia wars ower 500 000 serbs were expeled from Croatia and Bosnia without anyone voicing their anger.What a hypocracy!

[LeMonde63]

Yes. it is an injustice to confiscate the property of others because they leave a country and not allow them and their descendants the ability to return to claim it. So, 23,000 people have the right to return, as long as they don't bring their families with them?

[LeMonde63]

To me, it seems that you are trying to show that only Jewish people have the right to a homeland in the newly created (Israel) since 1948, and that the Arabs living there at the time do not because prior to 1948 there was no Palestine, hence there are no Palestinians?

[tomislavvajs]

first i want to say that most of arabs who left in 1948 were not palestinian origin. Some of them were living in the land for few decades some of them for two generations. Considering refuges the same thing happend again.Amost all of them have just one grandparent who claim palestinian origin while most of them are citisens of other countries like Jordan where they constitute an absolute majority of population.

[LeMonde63]

You referenced the Wiki as your source. There are no definitive numbers about how many Arabs immigrated, only estimates. There is NO consensus. It depends on which expert one picks and chooses for the data. These numbers are not "facts". 

Google:

Palestine Wikipedia The question of late Arab immigration to Palestine

The immigration numbers from the book you referenced and recommended for statistics, "From Time Immemorial" by Joan Peters, has been widely discredited by scholars.

[LeMonde63]

These researchers include Norman Finkelstein, who wrote his thesis about it, Noam Chomsky and Yehoshua Porath. Ironically, all of these scholars are Jewish. Among the descriptions of the book are, "rubbish", "hoax" and "fraud". Even Daniel Pipes, a Zionist apologist, wrote, "From Time Immemorial stands out as an appallingly crafted book..."

Google: From Time Immemorial Joan Peters Wikipedia

[tomislavvajs]

OAN PETERS FROM TIME IMMEOMORIAL Shortly after publication Martin Kramer wrote that the book raises overdue questions about the demographic history of ''Palestine'' in a way that cannot be ignored, "

[tomislavvajs]

Theodore H. White called Peters' work a "superlative book" that traces Middle East history with "unmatched skill. Nobel-laureate Saul Bellow's review of the book stated: "Every political issue claiming the attention of a world public has its 'experts" - news managers, anchor men, ax grinders, and anglers

[oldjoe5]

I am pretty sure Peter's book is today univerally recognized as a derivative fraud. Isn't it?

[tomislavvajs]

The book was also praised by Arthur J. Goldberg and Martin Peretz who said: "if (the book is) read, it will change the mind of our generations

Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein cant be wieved as inpartial and objective writerrs or scientists

[rulllar]

My friend, you quote Finkelstein, who is a well known ideologue, and Chomsky, who is more or less a banner for the political left. However, how about quoting local authority leaders AT THE TIME:

"it is very difficult to make a case out for the

misery of the Arabs if at the same time their

compatriots from adjoining states could not be

kept from going in to share that misery." - On Arab leaders complaints in relation to the Jews.

British Governor of the Sinai from 1922 to 1936

[oldjoe5]

Can you point out any lies or errors by either Finkelstein or Chomsky?

If you cannot, then maybe yoy should re-think how you arrived at your worldview

[yamejanakaratoprak]

Your quote seems to presume that we, as opposed to the Arabs, are all jews and that we are beholden to them in obedience. My friend, we are not all jews and we dont owe them any support. We can help the Palestinians, even if they cannot help temselves, because we believe in Justice. We are not animals that side with strongest or who makes the largest noise;the jews are racists who humiliate us by making us agree that the Palestinians dont 'deserve' help because nobody wants to help them anyway.

[tomislavvajs]

The great merit of this book is to demonstrate that, on the "Palestinian" issue, these experts speak from utter ignorance. Millions of people the world over, smothered by false history and propaganda, will be grateful for this clear account of the origins of the ''Palestinians''. e history by which these unfortunate Arabs are imposed upon and exploited."

[tomislavvajs]

This is a wery cheep lie. the fact is that the so called pal refuges are in fact pal returners as 90% of nowdays palestinians are decendens of arabs who imigrated to the land of Israel in the last 200 years

[LeMonde63]

What is a cheap lie? The Israeli laws in the video are easily verifiable with some research. There are no Palestinian "returners". Israel won't allow most Arabs out of Palestine, Gaza in particular, and there are few if any that have been allowed to return. There were no Israelis in the modern sense before 1948. There were no "Palestinians" either in the modern sense. The UN created that partition.

[LeMonde63]

Both Jewish people and Arabs consider the region their "homeland" and both have lived there for much longer than 200 years. Where is the statistical data to show that 90% of Arabs from the area of modern Palestine that want to return to their ancestral homes were only there for 200 years? Why would "200 years" be a deciding figure for a people to consider a geographic location a "homeland"?

[tomislavvajs]

In the year of 1800 there were 270 000 inhabitans of palestine (both jews and arabs)

This mean that the land was in fact empty

In the XII century there were 225 000 people.Which means that the number rose for 50% in 600 years.Today there are 11 miliom clamide to be pals which mean that their number should rose for 5000% for 200 years.This is a demographical non sense and a result of massive imigration

[LeMonde63]

The historical demographic information from ancient history to 200 years ago is informative, but what does that have to do with the Arab and Jewish populations in 1948, when Israel and Palestine was created? Both Arab and Jews feel they have a historical connection to the region. I have not found a consensus on the number of Palestinian refugees in 2009. The numbers registered at the UN are about 5 million.

[LeMonde63]

Given the Arab population in 1948, 1967, and the proclivity for large families in that demographic, I think a number between 5-11 million worldwide is a possibility, with 11 million being an overestimation.

Google: WHO IS A PALESTINE REFUGEE? UNWRA

For Israel to remain a "Jewish" majority, this is a dangerous trend. It is not surprising that Israel is attempting to occupy as much land as possible.

[LeMonde63]

Here is an Arab perspective, which answers many of the points that you raised in the private mailing.

Google: Zionist Frequently Asked Questions Palestine Remembered

[tomislavvajs]

I red this artickle but there is no awnser in them.

quick internet search for oposing demography is not an awnser

This hamas site as other sites cant scientificly oppose the fact that arabs massivly imigrated to the land betweeb 1800-1948

Read the book of Joan Peters The time immemorial

[LeMonde63]

Where did Palestine Remembered (as you wrote, "Hamas site") state that there was no immigration of Arabs to Palestine? I don't discount that Arabs immigrated to the region, either, but there is no consensus on the numbers, this is also in the WIKI article "Palestine" that you sourced under: "The question of late Arab immigration to Palestine". New immigrants arrived from Arab countries, and millions of Jews came from the West, Europe, Russia and other areas.

[LeMonde63]

Both Jews and Muslims have been living there continuosly for hundreds of years, the Arabs since the Caliphates. According to WIKI, the site you sourced, there were about 200,000 people estimated to be in the region in 1795, the majority were Muslim. Nearly a quarter million people is not "empty". Given that Arab families are usually large, with over three children, and usually more, that would be a large demographic by the 20th century just from that information.

[LeMonde63]

Why do some Jewish people believe they had a "right" to a homeland in 1948, based on the same criteria of Arab and Jewish immigration, a lengthy presence in the area as the Muslims, but that the Muslims living there do not have the same right?

[LeMonde63]

From Palestine Remembered, "Do Palestinians Exists, or Don't They? That's The Question?"

"In 1905 during the Zionist Congress convention at Bessel (Switzerland) a Palestinian Jew, Yitzhak Epstein 1862-1943, delivered a lecture about the "Arab question" : "Among the difficult questions connected to the idea of the renaissance of our people on its soil there is one which is equal to all others: the question of our relations with the Arabs. . .

[LeMonde63]

We have FORGOTTEN one small matter: There is in our beloved land an entire nation, which has occupied it for hundreds of years and has never thought to leave it. . . .

[LeMonde63]

We are making a GREAT psychological error with regard to a great, assertive, and jealous people. While we feel a deep love for the land of our forefathers, we forgot that the nation who lives in it today has a sensitive heart and loving soul. The Arab, like every man, is tied to his native land with strong bonds." (Righteous Victims, p. 57)

I think his assessment was correct.

[tomislavvajs]

The demographic rise of arabs from XII century to XIX century in the land was less then 40% but the clamid rise from 1800-2006 is 5000%

which is a scientific non sense. So we can easely statisticly count out the true numbers of palestinian arabs with the knowldege of all factors(birth rate,mortality,imigration,emig­ration etc)

And this can easely show that we cant speak about palestinian people but about heterogenic arab groups which lived in the land in 1948

[tomislavvajs]

While the jewish imigration is a well known fact there are sistematic eforts to hide the facts about paralel arab imigration which happend for different reason (economical).

[tomislavvajs]

We can use Jordan as model for demographic comperation out of 5.7 milion Jordanians 65% are claimed to be palestinians and only about 1,8 milion are arabs of jordanian origin. While in XVII century the population of Jordan was higher then the population of the land of Israel. Nowday ofitial claim of ''palestinians'' are 11 000 000 (wikipedia) which also showes that 86-92% of those ''palestinians" are in fact decendens of arab imigrants to the land

[LeMonde63]

Which means that Arabs in Palestine after the partition have no right to have the land allocated to them? That Jewish people have a right to the land given to the Arabs as well as the land given to Israel? Five million (UN refugee camp report) or 11 million (exaggerated number), Thirteen million Jews worldwide have a right to immigrate to Israel, but Arabs who consider themselves Palestinian do not have a right to immigrate to Palestine? Oh, the hypocrisy!

[LeMonde63]

How about the five million Arab families in UN camps? The UN has been monitoring these numbers since 1948, and these statistics are not exaggerations. Jewish families worldwide have the right of return to Israel, but the Arab families who left Palestine in 1948 do not have a right to return to Palestine? Again, Oh, the hypocrisy!

[tomislavvajs]

The only problem with their claim is simple.There are not palestinians. Not to mention just the fact that due to intermarrige with other local arabs and with others almost all of those palestinians have just 1/4 palestinian decendens or no pal decendens at all, while the number of living persons who actualy left Israel in 1948 is about 23 000 We have also to explore the fact that 90% of those ''palestinians'' are decendends of arabs who came to live in the land between 1800-1948

[LeMonde63]

So the UN statistics (about 900,000 in 1950 that include descendants who left Israel in1948) are incorrect? I have never encountered a consensus on the number 23,000 from any reliable source. The 5 million in refugee camps(unreliable UN report?) are Arabs who left Palestine and their descendants . Israel and Palestine were both created at the same time. The Arabs fled in 1948. They can't come back, but Jews can. Argue demographics and numbers "til the come home" ;) this can not be disputed.

[LeMonde63]

Let me ask this, to me it seems that you are trying to show that only Jewish people have the right to a homeland in the newly created (Israel) since 1948, and that the Arabs living there at the time do not because prior to 1948 there was no Palestine, hence there are no Palestinians?

[LeMonde63]

"til the come home" ;)

That should read "til the cows come home" lol

[tomislavvajs]

Only 7 milion jews are living outside Israel and not 13 milion. My family lived in jerusalem and vitnesed the mass arab influx to the land in both XIX and XX century as it was described in the book of Joan Peters when the land transformed itself from empty desert to a fertile land.I could not consider Israel a democracy while it refuses to expel the arab imigrant family which colonised MY HOUSE too in 1929 in east jerusalem for the sake of not provoking the western medias

[LeMonde63]

Apologies, yes there are only 7 million Jews outside Israel. I should have clarified that about 6 million of the people who had the right to immigrate, had already done so.

[tomislavvajs]

If we are speaking about hypocrycy we must adress Israeli democratic sistem in comparation with the rest of region.We could not pretend that Israel is in scandinavia we have to discus Israeli democracy in the context of midle east.

[annebeck58]

Yes, thank you.

THIS is the exact factual information I was looking for to counter some Zionist LIES told to me just two days ago. I am going to post it in my videos, so when the Zionists (American "Christian") come to look at what I am doing, as they are want to do, they WILL see the truth!

[spartason]

Zionist Israelis are hypocrites, murders, and land thieves.

[ThunderDog97]

israel is an apartheid crime state.

--

[mideastfocus]

In its 60 years, Israel still has not bothered to draft a constitution. Its Supreme court pics and chooses between Otoman law, British protectorate law, or makes them up on the spot. You call this a democracy ? When there is equal justice, equal participation, and no apartheid and ethinic cleansing, then maybe you can call it a democracy.

[CsalbertCs]

Israel isn't even a democracy! It's an ethnocracy.

Ethnocracy is a political regime which, in contrast to democracy, is instituted on the basis of qualified rights to citizenship, and with ethnic affiliation (defined in terms of race, descent, religion, or language) as the distinguishing principle.

Based on that definition, you can come up with your own opinion.

[checkunderyourbed]

This abbienetvision guy posted a lot of bullshit and lies. Israel DOES NOT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT ARABS. Israel wants all Arabs to either die or leave the areas they wish to steal from them. And that bullshit about Palestinians getting financial aid from the government is absolute BS! What the hell is that guy on?!?

[abbienetvision]

As far as the looted/stolen palestin shop is concerned, it is a small story about some punk kids probably robbing a store and putting up a flag. The next day, the owners cleaned it up and went back to work. I think this type of small crime is all over the world and has no political meaning at all. Are the owners of the store still alive?

The same before and after this picture?

I lived not far from that store and my apartment was broken into and I was robbed too. Is that a national issue?

[abbienetvision]

Also you state different dates on this video. If the Arabs were kicked out of their homes in 48, how were they kicked out in 65 (the law according to this)?Even the laws you write after start in 49, although all pics are from 48.

While loads of non-Jews own land in Israel today, in Palestine it is illegal to sell anything to Jews, so who lives apartied?

BTW the shop in Haifa is still owned by Arabs, as is that entire section of Haifa 4:11

4:49 Illegal buildings. All Arabs were able to stay,

[LeMonde63]

The different dates indicate the date of the specific law. These range from the forties onward. Of course, not all Arabs were "kicked out" in 1948. After the Building and Planning Law in 1965, one of the Planning Commissions zoned out of existence 40 ancient villages, even though they were still inhabited. The photos in this video range from 1948, 1949, 1967, and after 2000.

[LeMonde63]

An Israeli flag is posted on the door of the Haifa shop at 4:11. For an enlarged view of this photo, Google:

Haifa - حيفا : A Looted/Stolen Palestinian Arab Shop, 2001

[abbienetvision]

Yes, you are correct, I lived about 5 minutes walk to that shop. The Arabs in that area of Haifa, bordering a Wadi NisNas, are Israeli Arabs. All of the Arabs could have been like them, if they didn't hate the Jews more than they love their kids. Even with all the terror against Jews and Israelis, Israel still help Arabs in Israel, Kuwait, Russia, Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and all over the world.

[abbienetvision]

Please, I beg you to go into the Betuach Leumi (social security) or Office of the Interior in Israel. Go in you will see that it is packed full of Arabs, since this is where they need to go to get money if they want it from the government. In fact, Israel has financially a huge problem with this, since an Arab can have up to 4 wives and children with each of them and the state of Israel needs to pay for all these families. This is not a problem in USA, but in Israel it is!

[LeMonde63]

abbienetvision: ..."4:49 Illegal buildings. All Arabs were able to stay",

The settlers build illegal Jewish-only colonies on Arab land against International law, and their homes are not reduced to rubble.

[ZionistWarCrimes]

SLAUGHTERING ARABS AT A RATIO OF "8 to 1" YEAR AFTER YEAR AND THEN CLAIMING YOU ARE THE VICTIM OF TERRORISM AND ANTI-SEMITISM IS SIMPLY LAUGHABLE BY ANY RATIONAL, LOGIC, RELIGION OR CREED!. NO EXCUSES ARE CREDIBLE FOR THESE LEVELS OF USA & UK SPONSORED TERRORISM. NOT EVEN THE JEWISH HOLY `TORAH ALLOWS KILLING BEYOND AN EYE FOR AN EYE!

Source of ratio BT Selem Israeli Human Rights Group and Amnesty International