Thom debates Free Trade with LIBERAL? Danny Schechter (1/2)

[LanceDirk]

It's part of the job of the federal gov't to regulate interstate commerce. That is obviously interstate commerce, so the gov't doesn't have to do anything tricky like deny road funding, it can just outlaw it.

[luvcheney1]

The reason we got used to high tariffs, is because it wasnt really possible to tax paychecks like now. It was easy to just lay tax on ships at ports.

[luvcheney1]

@zlotyz I saw a TV show for Thom Hartman advertise on Fox business. It is one of those channels that has 12 viewers.

[Armitage2]

the volker shock killed american industry. investment radically shifted from industry to finance and there wasn't much reason to continue old protectionist policies.

[MrBankRuns]

Why does this HOST bring on a quest? All he does is try to talk over him?

[christo930]

It may get mentioned later in the video, but the only reason China is able to out-compete us so badly is the US gov is running huge deficits! The Chinese gov and cental banks buy US treasuries and then convert to Yuon which devalues the Youn. If the US would stop selling the Chinese our debt, the yuon would rise and Chinese imports would go way up. But nobody wants to look at that problem because they get gov checks.

[luvcheney1]

@christo930 "Stop selling our debt to china'? What?? China accumulaes dollars, I`m sure you can at least get that. If it wanted Treasuries, it can buy them on the market. Just because you have a 10 year note doesnt mean you have to keep it 10 years, they can be sold at any time, and are. Besides, we dont have the will to balance the budget, so we want some one to buy the debt, and THEY have surplus dollars.

[christo930]

@luvcheney1 My point was that the RMB is being artificially suppressed and if it were to rise we would be able to compete with them better.

[luvcheney1]

@christo930 So, the dollar is being inflated, and losing value, and the US govt is upset, because the Chinese Govt is causing it`s currency to fall at the same rate as the dollar? In other words, we can inflate ours, but doing the same by them is wrong? And, how do we have the right to tell them what they to do? For OUR convenience? Is there any doubt Chinese people are gaining living standard advances, since the command and control economy has become freer, starting in 1978?

[christo930]

@luvcheney1 The Chinese people aren't reaping the benefits of their hard work through a stronger currency which is what happens when an economy is strong. The Chinese gov is still a terrible gov and they don't care about the living standards of their people, only their own power. As a trading partner, we do have a right to ask them to stop manipulating their currency. We have a right to limit their access to our market if they don't work with us. China is FAR from free.

[luvcheney1]

@christo930 China just overtook the US as the largest consumer of automobiles in the world. The standard of living is increasing rapidly. I am not saying they are as free as Singapore, or Hong Kong, but neither is the US. The fact that Obama is so stupid he may start a catostrophic trade war is real, but that doesnt mean it makes sense. Only an idiot says, "oh please! Charge us more for your products".

[christo930]

@luvcheney1 The living standard is rising rapidly for some. Large parts of China have no running water or electricity. China also protects it's market from US competitors. They are keeping their currency low to run our manufacturers out of business because they can't compete. We also need to start to ban imports from China until they start implementing some environmental laws. We can't compete with a company that pays slave wages, in weak RMB, no environmental laws, no safety laws etc.

[luvcheney1]

@christo930 China is coming from zero. They are improving rapidly. The market exerts pressure to balance the exchange rates, and China IS manipulating. This costs money. Under the gold standard until 1971, China would exchange Gold for dollars at US Treasury, and we would be forced to devaluate.( RMB rises) You condemn China for manipulating the currency, while you want manipulation on trade, wages, policies, currency too. We had slave wages in factories, as we left agriculture too.

[christo930]

@luvcheney1 It's not the same thing. Chinese firms are creating products that are artificially cheap because they aren't paying the full cost of manufacturing because they don't treat the waste water, belch poisonous gasses in the atmosphere and have substandard safety. The US was paying some of the highest wages in the world back then and for most of that time, the highest wages in the world.

[luvcheney1]

@christo930 Dont expect China, or any developing nation, to starve so they can clean up the planet. They will advance, and little by little the working conditions will improve, and they will be rich enough to value what you do. Right now, they would like to eat. You are an elitist bastard, who would keep the whole world in poverty, so you can sit on your sofa.

[christo930]

@luvcheney1 So because I think that China should stop suppressing it's currency and thereby robbing it's citizens of the purchasing power of their hard work, that makes me an elitist ? Because I want Chinese firms to stop destroying the lives of it's citizens with such bad pollution that makes me an elitist ?

[luvcheney1]

@christo930 China is making a choice to keep its export business going, until it can pick up the slack with domestic demand. Then, they wont be 100% dependent on us. That is their decision, not ours. We can bitch, but it is their decision. You dont care a shit about the chinese people, their present course is improving the lives and standard of living. In 30 years, it will be much better. China is a miracle. You just think they should bow down to our trade desires.

[christo930]

@luvcheney1 So you want free trade for the US, but managed trade for the Chinese? IF you think you are doing the Chinese any favors by supporting this terrible policy the Chinese are pursuing, you are sadly mistaken. How is it a good thing that the Chinese people are having their purchasing power stolen from them AND having bubbles formed in their economy?

[luvcheney1]

@christo930 Every Nation ought to follow free trade. Every nation ought to allow its currency to float freely. But nations pursue policies different from that. China wont allow its currency to rise, but that is their decision. It makes it harder for us to export to them balanced by the fact it makes our imports from them inexpensive. I dont want a war with them, shooting, or trade. You ought to listen to them, they warned about our reckless spending! They know US Treasury bills will collapse.

[christo930]

@luvcheney1 I agree that our gov spending is reckless. China knows they aren't going to get paid back, but they don't quite know what to do at this point. The communist party embraced growth to such a degree that it may as well be the official state religion. Growth is put above all else, including the lives of their citizens. I certainly hope that China doesn't decide to spend it's reserves by building up a military. They could surpass us militarily within 5 years.

[luvcheney1]

@christo930 Growth IS providing a better standard of living for them. They arent meeting your standards. Funny, I see them becoming like we were when we grew powerful, and the US as becoming more a command economy like they were when poverty stricken. They lecture us about deficit spending, as does Merkel.

[christo930]

@luvcheney1 It would be better if they stopped suppressing their currency, enforced safety and environmental standards and cracked down on piracy. Instead, they have blown up a housing bubble that dwarfs ours and a stock bubble and they might end up suffering the same fate as Japan did when they suppressed their currency and blew up a housing and stock bubble.

[luvcheney1]

@christo930 Chinese real estate requires very high downs and equity, 50% in many cases. They are already trying to snuff out the boom, but people dont walk away from 50% equity like they do here at zero to negative equity. You seem to ignore the fact that WE blew up the economy and the pieces are still hitting us on the head.

[christo930]

@luvcheney1 I acknowledge that, I just don't think China is doing everything right. You seem to think that China (gov) can do no wrong.

[luvcheney1]

@christo930 I have acknowledged to you China ought to float its currency freely, but it isnt that important, because we are compensated with inexpensive products, that balance the problem. It is silly to expect China to stunt growth by cleaning the air up now, nor do I think a 10 min break every 4 hrs, and MLK`s birthday off, and 30 lb lifting restrictions are coming quite yet.

[perseverance8]

I think Danny Schechter is looking at it from a better, more reality based point of view, but both of these guys dont get it, they're just looking at it from the I want, I want, I want, point of view that mose idiologues get caught up in.

[xadam2dudex]

trade as it is practiced today in the US is not true trade it is set up to export industry to 3rd world countries and then import the goods manufactured from these third world countries..the US economy has been exported overseas leaving the US a low wage service economy that leaves it a declining economy.. now the largest segment of the US economy is debt creation. the beginning of the end came under Nixon who struck a deal to export industry to China for the benefit of the corporate/elite

[oggleman]

I disagree with both of them. I see "protectionism" as pitting workers in one country against another, all workers must unite and demand that the slave labor option not be available to employers anywhere. as for danny's argument he's not making much sense

[luvcheney1]

@oggleman Yes, outlaw slave labor. We must keep China, and all 3rd world nations from rising out of misery, because we deserve uneducated liberal arts majors to earn $100K, while the math, science, high tech, educated Orientals live in mud huts. After all, we are Americans.

[oggleman]

@luvcheney1 lol rush me to the burn unit, I made this comment nearly a year ago now, i don't care to debate with some neocon who buys into the idea that slave labor is a nation's "ticket out of poverty" that's nonsense

[luvcheney1]

@oggleman Except that is what happens. Slave labor in the US, then Japan, then Taiwan& Singapore& Korea, now China. Just pick who`s next, in a few years of slave labor they will be on strike, like they are in China today.

[julsHz]

This is such a great venue for you- I'm shocked that so few are watching. For my own part, I'm glad to have found you here.

Very interesting, and important issue- thanks for all you do... I don't feel qualified to comment on the issue, but I feel compelled to educate myself. And you always put forth good questions and information. I hope more people find you here.

[MasterTibby]

I'm very glad Thom Hartmann came to YouTube! He is hands down the smartest man on the radio!

I'm sure that given enough time more people will discover Thom on here, and more will begin to watch.

[julsHz]

Indeed.