horowitz (1949) plays chopin ballade #4

[Cedericoco]

nice at 2:12, though!!!!! Very original!

[Cedericoco]

horrendous pace. Yet another Horo(r)witz disappointment.... 

[hellboyreloaded]

/watch?v=a_Adh_H2Roc

[bucephalus48]

What I notice is the composition. What does it matter which recording it was. We have one of the finest players, one of the finest composers, all is together. Everything is one. All we have to do is enjoy. All is as it should be....

[sidewinderxx]

I much prefer Pollini's to this

[forgottenbooks]

I have a different recording of Horowitz playing this ballade. I thought it was 1949 until I realized that this is different. Could it be that he recorded the ballade twice in the same year, differently, or did I get the date of my recording wrong?

[kasyapa]

forgottenbooks - quite possible. this is supposed to be a non-published take.

[mikael1022]

Impresionante.................­

[kiaccyl]

1949?

[bernie10025]

@kiaccyl

Yes, this was recorded in 1949.

[Bassini007]

Good, but Zimerman's version is much better.

[John19182004]

@Bassini007 NO.

[JDthommo]

I always love how he includes a fifth between the octaves in the bass in the last 4 chords

[kasyapa]

JDthommo - i hit on that early with bad pianos at the military school to try and make the bass sound richer. i knew that organs sometimes had that in pedal to make an illusory octave-lower sound, so that pleased me.

[chaimgogol]

Yes, because we all know Chopin was an incompetent, poor fellow.

[gerardbedecarter]

@JDthommo .... this seems to have been a Liszt thing !

[4785689]

8:54 compared with this 1980 recordings are strange

in my opinion the 1969 version is on of the bests

[kasyapa]

4785689 - agreed. 8:54 is weak. as i say constantly, i really like the met ~1980 official recording. (btw, the version used on the CD is different than the LP - have to beware that with a lot of horowitz CDs - they use unapproved takes! you probably know this!)

[ItalianKing25]

@kasyapa What don't you like about 8:54?

[gbshalev]

I have compared about 60-70 version of this ballade by top pianists. Horowitz is by far the best.

[kasyapa]

gbshalev - i agree, having made a smaller survey i'm sure. one of horowitz's less-heralded gift was his sometimes-perfect proportioning of pieces. he's considered the mad technician, but in reality - and heard in proper acoustic, as with a pirate recordings - he often makes more sense than anyone.

[ilshatt]

I think Horowitz would be an even much better Musician if he stayed in Russia for more time. He sometimes tries to do "Show business" more than "Music", but it´s not his fault. However, after Richter and Gilels he is my favourite pianist.

[kasyapa]

ilshatt - i think that he made the "show business" part of his art, and vice versa. he went off the track from about 1942-1955, but i think he recovered. :)

[JohnnyStricklett]

Horowitz is not at his best here. There is a far better recording of him playing this beautiful piece. Noneless, I still love it!!

[kasyapa]

JohnnyStricklett - as i say incessantly, i like the ~1981 recording at the met much better. it has the breathing space horowitz brought into his playing upon his 1965 return and after.

[ibclappin]

the beauty of this piece - much like everything else chopin wrote, especially the ballades - comes from the entire piece as a whole. i find chopin's music to be perfect: you can't replace any single note with a better one and any length of a pause with another, and the entire piece should be played consistent to achieve it's true soul.

[kasyapa]

ibclappin - beautifully observed. i find his multi-movement pieces unsuccessful for just that reason - lacking wholeness, even emotionally. (the second sonata is just bizarre on that score.) but individual pieces - as whole as bach's pieces.

[ibclappin]

@kasyapa i'm glad you agree with me there. but i have to disagree with you; chopin's music is not something for us to break down and measure, it's what we can only accept as part of our past and enjoy, which is what i'd like to think chopin himself wanted. guys like chopin weren't unsuccessful in creating music, it's only up to us to succeed in accepting them. and if we change their music it might be interesting but it won't be the same or anything close and i'm not surprised by that

[Gargantupimp]

3:00 I love the forz why does no one do that when it works so well? Great performance clear as Hofmman.

[kasyapa]

i know not. it seems an obvious point for a romantic surge preceding that around 3:15-3:30.

[ByrneBelew]

Hiya Kasyapa! How are you doing? Just a quick question, do you know of any recordings of the Chopin Ballade 2 by Horowitz? I don't think I've asked before, but apologies if so.

[kasyapa]

hi there - doing well, working on the next several books. i don't recall if it was you, but someone did ask a little while ago. horowitz did perform the ballade no 2 in the 1920s - i', not sure if he ever did afterward - but he never recorded it. even the popular no 3 he only recorded once, i believe.

[ByrneBelew]

Glad to hear you're well :0) I could have sworn I saw it on a CD somewhere must have been the 2nd scherzo. What was he thinking? Apart from that he didn't like it enough! Now we have to make do with other people's renditions lol. And that goes for the remaining sonatas too.

[kasyapa]

it has much lyricism i'd love to have heard from his hands. and yes - i feel that way about most of the repertory. imagine having been able to capture horowitz playing through the totality of it. gregor benko had the right idea wanting to record all of nyiregyhazi - a shame all that beauty and violence perished unrecorded, too.

[ByrneBelew]

Aye, I wish he'd recorded a few more of the orchestral works, he always excelled in those too.

So I presume you're talking about the pre-Benko Nyiregyhazi era? Did none of it get recorded?

[kasyapa]

i'm talking about nyiregyhazi at any time. benko was truly devoted to him, and e.n. crazily shat on him. it's the one thing i really hate e.n. for. some things were recorded, like the "faust" symphony in '78, post-meeting-benko, but nothing like the hundreds of pieces g.b. wanted to get down. have you seen my e.n. channel?

[ByrneBelew]

That's a shame, but not entirely surprising given the little I've read about him - another mad genius playing by his own rules. That Mr X stunt sounds like something Prince would have pulled!!

[h1hacter]

@kasyapa How did you know that he never recorded it? And a separate question: Do you think Sony Classical could be having, but not releasing yet the recording of the 2nd ballade? It kind of doesn't make sense, since all other ballades were recorded and sold. I think, just last month, SME released a new version of Waldstein sonata played by Horowitz that was never heard before. from the album "Vladimir Horowitz At Carnegie Hall - The Private Collection: Beethoven & Haydn ".

[kasyapa]

h1hacter - because i know his history quite well, having been studying it since about 1984. we'd know about a recording of the ballade no 2, just as we'd know about a studio recording of the "octave" etude. it's not a piece that he ever had much identification with, though he played it in his famous early recital sequence of playing them in reverse order: 4, 3, 2, 1.

[h1hacter]

@kasyapa Ah, I see. That is interesting. Since you've been studying it since 1984, did you ever go to one of his concerts? I think he passed away around 1989. He has greater contrasts in music in his later years.

[kasyapa]

h1hacter - i did indeed - the recordings of it is up on my channel in about 9 or 10 parts. take a look at the search string "horowitz 1985." i'll send you a private message too - i have a writeup of the experience that new friends often like to see.

[h1hacter]

@kasyapa I found just now that on January 18, 1925, Vladimir Horowitz did play Chopin Ballade No. 2, the only ballade he did not officially record. He played it at Leningrad (St. Petersburg), Russia. That concert was probably the first concert that he played the Heroic polonaise live too.

[kasyapa]

h1hacter - fantastic! how did you find out?

[ByrneBelew]

What's the channel name again?

[kasyapa]

checkmatesolidier . i'll have more to upload there, too, when time permits.

[ByrneBelew]

Cool, thanks, I'm going to check it out now.

[kasyapa]

did you hear? :)

[ByrneBelew]

To be honest I'm not entirely sure what to make of Ervin! One minute I'm marveling at the undeniable beauty and brilliance of his playing, the next I'm almost bored?! He seems more consistent in the shorter, lighter pieces. I think he's a great pianist but I am missing something from him ;0) Now it may well be down to the compositions and not e.n., or maybe he's more involved with the micro than the macro which occasionally creates a detached, directionless feel?

[kasyapa]

i've almost never heard him as detached, but i can go with the directionless. he's a maddening guy and as bazzana says in his biography a "ruin" - in the sense of something great and decrepit. still, that liszt second "legende" is, as i've said elsewhere, for my money the most viscerally thrilling piano performance ever.

[ByrneBelew]

He seemed like a sweet, highly intelligent old eccentric in the documentary videos here on YT, and not bitter at all which is great. And his playing certainly is extraordinary!

[JohnnyStricklett]

@ByrneBelew About what you said. I kinda agree with you. I've listened to every one of Horowitz's recordings of Chopin. He has this amazing power to bind everything together into one story that makes more sense than when the "ordinary pianist" plays it. However, as much as I admire and praise Horowitz for his stunning powers, that aforementioned ability of his is somehow missing---"he's more involved with the micro than the macro".

[bluepanthera]

@JohnnyStricklett Again "he's more involved with the micro than the macro" referred to the pianist Ervin Nyíregyházi, not Horowitz! Horowitz is stunning here.

[JohnnyStricklett]

@ByrneBelew Let me share something with you that might that might make some sense of this for you...This was recorded in 1949. That was during the time when Horowitz began losing himself to the endless concertizing and his new family life all together. The stunt man in him was overpowering the artist as he tried to consistently make the audience go crazy over his playing.

[bluepanthera]

@JohnnyStricklett The above postings referred to the pianist Ervin Nyíregyházi Horowitz's abilities were never in question!

[JohnnyStricklett]

@ByrneBelew I have never heard any of his playing from this tim. However, one can infer that he gave his strength to playing each little section instead of just playing like Horowitz. Don't worry, I reassure you that this isn't the real Horowitz :)

[soami2u]

Before you declare any version of the fourth Ballade to be the "best" ever, listen to these three versions: Cortot, Novaes and Moravec. Richter's version is also quite original and compelling--it's grown on me the more times I've heard it; his impulsive rush to those last 4 chords leaves you stunned!

[mpakos18473]

Horowitz made another recording of this ballade with RCA at 1952 which is slightly better than this (and with better sound quality).

[kasyapa]

and in the early 80s - better yet!

[OrangeSodaKing]

Horowitz owns those octaves at 9:50!

[kasyapa]

funny how many things he owns, and how well. :)

[Thisisnotmyrealname8]

I am not a musician, but have started listening to some Chopin. My first impression and the reason I like it is that the sound seems so counter-intuitive, yet interesting because it works so well as a whole. It makes me wonder how the pieces were first conceived.

[kasyapa]

beautifully said - you've expressed something very real about the particular chopin quality or compositional sound-world. the way i've put it is, he discovered the music hiding in tonal harmony.

[Thisisnotmyrealname8]

I hate to contradict you, but, looking over this, my impression is that the discoveries in art are the intuitive sounds; Beethoven, Mozart, while the sound of Chopin is like an invention which does not violate any laws, such that there are laws in art as their are physical laws in the material world. It sounds new, but does not offend the senses.

[Thisisnotmyrealname8]

Although, thinking about it still, I see how Chopin can be described as discovering, while the other intuitive sounds are like formal declarations of what is apparent: a mountain, a battle, etc... All, veiled in the real world, exposed by the art form.

Though, that is the problem with being too analytical with art, I can always think of equally valid, to me, explanations for what it is. The point of art must be, therefore, to simply observe. And that may be an analytical breach, as well.

[kasyapa]

this is similar to robert pirsig's road to discovering his own particular satori. have you read him?

[Thisisnotmyrealname8]

What is similar? Chopin? and, no.

[kasyapa]

your words suggesting the possibility of infinitely many rational hypotheses. you ought to read him - robert pirsig, "zen in the art of motorcycle maintenance."

[Thisisnotmyrealname8]

The words in the last post, or the posts prior?

[kasyapa]

"Though, that is the problem with being too analytical with art, I can always think of equally valid, to me, explanations for what it is."

[kasyapa]

you have not contradicted me. it's just your take. :)

[seanchanq]

I also agree. Chopin isn't so much Romantic as he is just Chopin. He's in a world of his own.

[kasyapa]

as horowitz said about his '65 concert, "chopin is on the program because it is chopin." (quoting from memory)

[cattleman6420012000]

It is very interesting that the early Horowitz doesn't dwell on the romantic here, he pushes on the tempo. It is incredibly well played though. I love his playing here. One must take into account that understandably there wouldn't be great resonance in such an early recording. Fabulous playing and interpretation frm Horowitz though.

[kasyapa]

it's certainly more surging-forward than his ~1980 version - which i prefer. but such power here - limitless.

[Dihelson]

It´s perhaps the first time i can hear MUSIC in the Coda. Almost all other pianists transform this coda into a bunch of nonsense that our ears gather some idea here and there. Horowitz as a true musican shows us where the melody realy is. And he doesn´t need to slow down in order to show this. He´s a musician, not a mere parrot pianist. Hats off !

[kasyapa]

what do you think of his ~1980 version?

[Dihelson]

Classical mujsic should be played fresh and clear, not predictable. One should play as if he were the author of the piece, and here we hear this. Interpretation! something really new, pure emotion! Chopin would have liked. Horowitz play WITH Chopin´s music, almost like a Jazz musician. Excelent ! - He´s not a mere pianist, he´s a MUSICIAN, like Chopin and others were. he knows the music ways. Hats off to this interpretation. I couldn´t have made better myself !

[kasyapa]

beautifully expressed. thank you for this.

[puchalaka]

I think this is the best of Horowitz, i dont really like him but this interpretation is just great.

[0bambi0deer0]

horowitz might be really great but not even the greatest pianists in the world play everything perfect....in my opinion the overture and the whole piece is generally too fast....and yes too many chords are brises..is this a lie?maybe he himself didn't like this recording also...we didn't say something bad.

[kasyapa]

as i say elsewhere in this thread, i like his 1980 recording better. i don't get nearly as much as direct emotion here as in the later recording.

[cattleman6420012000]

Yes it does sound a faster tempo than usual. If you listen to Rubinstein he plays it much slower. Murray Perahia was exquisite in his early recording.All these people are so special to me. I never get tired of listening to Horowitz, even if he pushed more with tempo he was still interesting.

[cattleman6420012000]

Horowitz's approached changed so much between his early days and after his comeback in 1965. To me I love listening to all his recordings of Rachmaninov 3, including the phenominal performance with Sir John Barbirolli in 1941 in New York.

[cattleman6420012000]

kasyapa. You are quite right. In his later recording he more mellow and generally warmer in tone quality. Of course in the older recording the recording ecoustics would have been dreadful. It is wonderful to hear the earlier recording though. his playing may have deepened after he came back i8n 1965.

[cattleman6420012000]

Horowitz was alway interesting to listen to. It's great to hear this recording from 1949. I am an enormous fan od Horowitz.

[kasyapa]

it's intriguing to listen to his conception here, no? i like 1980 better!

[puchalaka]

Poor Chopin...

[kasyapa]

why?

[puchalaka]

Because H. is better than Chopin...

jk

[0bambi0deer0]

why is he playing most of the chords brisees????????:/

[kasyapa]

explain, please.

[HorowitzITA]

Divino...

[piannelly]

Horowitz don't have to be compared with other pianists for me...

[220392123]

he's not the best.

[davidgray2]

ach well who is? at that level it's taste

[nosniborceda]

someone please correct the pitch!

[xXwaveXxdat]

his playing is well, but i don't like the piano he is playing on

[220392123]

no! its shit!

[TJFNYC212]

I agree wholeheartedly............ Rubinstein was awesome in Chopin ......... I heard him play and all Chopin program in 1973 in Constitution Hall, DC  what a marvel !!!!!!!!!!!

[otterhouse]

Thanks, great performance! Rubato is very logical here.

out-take? Private recording?

@OTTERHOUSE

[CD122344]

Listen to Casadesus's recording. His live performance is great as well - no pounding - delicate where it should be - powerful where it should be - few if any compare to this performance. ( late50s - early 60s?)

[dgaranin]

Bold, riveting performance!

[dsamogray]

fantastic

[SHUYAxVISUAL]

Quelle musique sublime !

[eirehaglas]

Personally, I like the way that Arthur Rubenstein interprets this piece. Horowitz is an excellent pianist, but Rubenstein captures a sensitivity that Horowitz lacks.

[TJFNYC212]

Yet Horowitz came to a certain sensitivity in his final years............ his playing of Mozart is an example..........

[GrandPatzer]

Although Horowitz is my favourite recording pianist, I prefer YouTube's Perahia rendition of this piece over any I've yet heard.

[RSFREAK969]

I must say that he brings melody and rhythm into an unworldly mix in this recording.

[refrmcetsryt]

The best version I heard of this is by Soyea(o?)n Lee in the Ester Honens competition in Calgary.

Not only did she play it like I think Chopin would have, but like Chopin would have played it after he discovered EXACTLY how it should be played. She seemed to play it that peerless.

[chevychase]

I call this the "I Can Die Now" Ballade, because after that spectacular ending I feel like nothing else can top that and I might as well go ahead and die now! Ballade no. 3 is the "Sex" Ballade because the ending reminds me of sexual climax. Nos. 1 and 2 are still in search of names.

[triplesummer]

I'm glad to find out that I'm not the only one who finds the "I Can Die Now" moments while listening to classical music. I even avoid listening to some recordings because such emotional experience frightens me.

[arthurmassucato]

These comments are of very bad taste.

[dgaranin]

It is unrewarding to comment on comments

[elevenwhy]

And what exactly are you commenting on?

[22307]

I know what you mean chevychase. I think no.2 is like a good vs evil fight, or like some disease gradually taking over your body until it kills you.

[elevenwhy]

I disagree. There is nothing gradual about Ballade 2 in my opinion.

[slobone]

A great performance, with more tension and forward motion than the piece usually receives. Perfectly controlled rubato. A little on the angry side, but that's fine. I'd rather hear a really individual interpretation than just another clone of Rubinstein...

[SCHneiDen777]

yes! power from Horowitz unmatched. It's too bad Liszt wasn't alive to tell us how much he probably greatly admires (-ed) Gorowitz. I soooooooooo wish we had Liszt on Record playing this, and his version of William Tell, and Beethoven's 3rd Symphony, 2nd movement.

[nextren]

Yes, it is an angry performance. As if the performer hates the piece. This is what makes it NOT work for me. Sorry, this is repellent.

[Mortimer123]

Yes, 1981 is richer musically. But it is just amazing to hear this over-the-top control of the keyboard. And on musical terms, this reminds me how strongly he focused on a singing sound and a bel canto line long, long before 1965. One sometimes tends to neglect this aspect in the face of the absurd technique and the piano-busting fff's. And how smart he was! Glenn Gould has nothing on Horowitz in terms of logical penetration of a score.

[serox901]

how is his playing of this at the met?

[kasyapa]

more imaginative, dreamier, more probing, more multi-dimensional. i like it better - but i'm one who prefers later horowitz to early in a lot of ways.

the sonics are, of course, far better.

[kasyapa]

it's on yt - watch?v equals-sign ZsiFoFpJmM8

[Vancouverite39]

An important interpretation of this piece. There's a power to Horowitz's technique unmatched by anyone, also an ability to unleash the piano forcefully. I find some of his stylistic nuances frequently grotesque, yet I think it is important to learn from him how to really let loose and give everything to a piece.

[kasyapa]

i'll be happy to put it up for you as a preview per r.i.a.a. guidelines. i don't do piracy, but feel free to listen as a preview and then, if you like it, buy a copy. sound good?

[nico22059]

Sorry for the delay, sounds good, but actually I found that recording just a few minutes ago, great recording! But thanks anyway!

[nico22059]

I´ve always wanted to hear horowitz playing this masterpiece! Thanks for the post!

Take care!

[kasyapa]

my pleasure! have you heard his commercial recording from nov 1981? it's beautiful, again (as with the bach-busoni toccata, 1950 vs 1965) the later version being the more spacious and colorful to my ears.

[nico22059]

I wish I had, but I haven´t. I´ll look for it, but I have no doubt that it´s a great recording, it´s horowitz, one of the greatest pianists of the 20th century