There is no equivocation. Colonial and biblical slavery were both owning people as property. Period. God can make slavery illegal but for some reason only allows jewish slaves to be illegal. Which is another example of the god of the bible being racist. Did I mention the bible is a jewish folklore?
@NekoD3m0n If there is no God, what is your basis for objecting to slavery? Namely, what grounds does atheism provide to justify compassion and mercy, equitable treatment and justice? Truth and verity? Can your worldview stand on its own presuppositions or must you borrow God's in order to discredit Him?
@JesusIsUrSaviour Atheism has NO stance or say so on morals and it's not a worldview. It's like asking how your favorite sport justifies slavery as being wrong. Sports are not meant to do that. I do not get my morals from 'not being a theist'. My morals are based on empathy. Common sense allows me to tell your a human being like me. I don't like getting stabbed in the face. Now this is just a wild speculation but im guessing YOU don't like getting stabbed in the face either. How did I know that?
@NekoD3m0n I guess that means we can both rule out stabbing people in the face as a 'good' thing. Now I don't like my stuff getting stolen so im guessing (and this is really just a shot in the dark but) you don't like your stuff getting stolen either? Okay so we can make a law on that being wrong. See where this is going? Now im not black or gay so I can see why those people are lesser human beings and should be treated as so. JUST KIDDING ;]
@NekoD3m0n So you admit that atheism as a worldview has no basis for empathy. In order to empathize, then, you must do so in spite of your atheism. Hence, atheism can not provide for the presuppositions you use to make these moral judgments and is thereby self-refuting.
@JesusIsUrSaviour 'Not being a theist' is not a worldview. It's just not being a theist. Your right, I admit that not being a theist does not create a guideline for empathy or morals. Nor did I ever claim that non-theism provides you with morals. So i'm not sure what your claiming to refute besides your own strange strawman argument. Just because atheism does not provide you with morals and our empathy does provide them does not make 'not being a theist' or atheism an invalid position.
@JesusIsUrSaviour Im not sure what your viewing atheism as. It seems to me you might be confusing atheism with a religion that is supposed to provide morals to its believers. Maybe your thinking of secular humanism?
Oh okay I get it. So what your saying is If someone is in debt to me I can force them to become my servant but I can't treat them with rigor like colonial slaves which means I can't beat them to death I can only beat them until they get up after a day or two. God is so loving and kind.
If smite with a rod - is clearly condoning.It should be: do not smite a servant with a rod or any other way.If servant dies from beating-you must be punished, but if dies after day or two-then no punishment requried?How about just plane simple:''Do not own/by,sell another person as a property'' It's so obviously written by man / shepards, according to a bronz age tribal society
Based on which type you were resulted in the treatment you received.
What difference does man-stealing make if you can steal the entire life of a slave born in your house who will never know freedom? What crime did the person born into slavery make? Why didn't God prescribe freedom for them at some point? Maybe because slaves are awesome for slave owners and the bible was written by men who owned slaves.
"If a man has sex with a slave girl whose freedom has never been purchased but who is committed to become another man's wife, he must pay full compensation to her master. But since she is not a free woman, neither the man nor the woman will be put to death.
Slavery is wrong. It has always been wrong. And you, sir, are wrong.
If you think slavery is the ONLY issue atheists have with God's character you're wrong.
Christians fall under the "Might Makes Right" view of morality. Just because God is powerful, his actions aren't necessarily "good". Let's determine if God is good by his actions.
1. God kills 42 kids with bears for calling a prophet a "baldy"
2. God has Jepthah sacrifice his daughter as a burnt offering in exchange for military victory
3. God drowns everything: kittens, babies, little handicapped kids, etc
You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your FELLOW ISRAELITES ruthlessly.
There are actually two standards for slaves: Slaves who are israelites and slaves who are foreigners. Foreigners can be owned forever. Israelites are to be released in 7 years. You can beat foreign slaves, you can't beat israelite slaves.
If God was against slavery he could have said - NO SLAVES
What I love about you religious types, you never know what kind of crazy things you're gonna come up with next, Keep it up, it is really worth a laugh.
its obvious that the bible it self supports slavery nd its incredible how this guy try to racionalize it so it sounds better, just to protect his maniac god yaweh.
@nellisonking Whar slavery was back then is what bosses-employers are today. And Jesus never came to change sociaty, he came to save our souls and learn us how to treat each other. 'Do for others just what you want them to do for you."
"why should we be kind" Because evolution has made us empathetic and sympathetic because we are mammals we are social animals and we require each other for multiple reasons...
"He is your property" <=== that doesn't condone slavery?
This is actually pretty good, there are way more information to talk about on this topic that ignorant Atheist doesn't seem to want to grasp. Simple minded people would use this argument but people who knows who to think actually don't use this at all. People are just hating but either way nice job, someone used this on me and I just destroyed this idiot with it... Stupid....
i wish your family were my servents. id beat the piss out of them up on a daily. it would be ok since your god said it was ok if they didnt die in a day or 2
@mekishiko1919 First, I do not agree with you that the Bible condones the modern concept of "harsh slavery" associated with colonial imperialism, etc. The Bible forbids such slave trade in both testaments--Ex 21:16, 1 Tim 1:10. Israelites could sell themselves as a slave/bondservant to have their debts covered, make a wage, have housing and be set free after six years. Foreigners could sell themselves as a slave/bondservant as well. Cont..
@mekishiko1919 Furthermore, The Bible recognizes that slavery is a reality in this sin-cursed world and doesn’t ignore it, but instead gives regulations for good treatment by both masters and servants and reveals they are equal under Christ (Eph 6:5, etc). The contradiction of your godless worldview that cries out for compassion has no basis. Why treat people humanely if we are chemical reactions in a struggle for life? Hungry lions don't empathize with grazing gazelles. cont....
@mekishiko1919 No, you must unwittingly evoke a biblical presupposition--that we are made in the image of God and thereby have a sanctity to our lives--in order to try and refute the biblical God for being cruel and abusing life. In short, you affirm the biblical God and refute yourself.
@JesusIsUrSaviour your gibberish itself is an assumption. what god? can you prove it exists? if he does, you follow an evil fuck of a god that does condone slavery. its clearly in your doctrine
@mekishiko1919 All I am asking is, if there is no God of compassion as the Bible describes, on what grounds do you have to condone slavery as cruel or harsh? In other words, how does your atheism provide for compassion, mercy, justice--all the concepts you evoke to condemn the inhumane treatment of another person? If there is no God and we're all chemical reactions, why bother?
@JesusIsUrSaviour why bother? maybe because we are alive and have to account for each other. why does a god have to be the only source of compassion, mercy and justice? if your doctrine your imaginary friend condones slavery, child sacrifice, genocide among other horrors. where is the compassion, mercy and justice in that? just because you say it is not so, doesnt no make it so. it is clearly in your doctrine
@mekishiko1919 You still have not answered the question: How does atheism account for compassion and mercy? If atheism cannot support or provide a rational basis for these concepts you evoke, then atheism is, logically speaking, irrational. And no, it is not in my doctrine despite your efforts to repeat that empty and refuted claim. I would like an answer to the profound question above before discussing anything else.
@JesusIsUrSaviour i have not answered your question because it it invalid because it makes an assumption that is not true. athiesm is not a living thing and does not have a doctrine. athiesm is a lack of belief, the default position. you are making the claim a magic man exists and loves you. can you prove it? your book clearly claims differently
@mekishiko1919 Call it what you like, how does your lack of belief in a god provide a basis for the empathy you evoke to refute the Bibical God? Until you can respond, you're hiding behind straw men, red herrings, and semantics. "The fear of the Lord is beginning of knowledge; but fools despise wisdom and instruction" (Prov 1:7).
@JesusIsUrSaviour what straw men? because i dont believe in walking dead men, the virgin birth and the talking snake? its more like you are hiding behind fairies and zombies.why do you believe in the mythical figure you claim is real?
@mekishiko1919 Only 48 prophecies about Jesus in old testament have been fullfilled, many of these from Jesaja. The dead sea scrolls that were found in 1950s are evidence that they scripts were written before Jesus coming. And the talking snake is a symbolism if u know what that is..
@JesusIsUrSaviour However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT) YOUR GOD IS AN ASS
@mekishiko1919 You still have not answered the question: Why should we be compassionate and just in a universe where there is no biblical God? How does empathy comport in a universe where there is no biblical God? You're running all over the place, spouting emotional epithets and philosophical conjectures. Do you have an argument? Can you answer the question? Or do you hate the idea of a righteous God so much you'll do anything to preserve your sinful autonomy?
@JesusIsUrSaviour wow! you want me to answer a question about something you havent defined yet. you cant assume i agree with your belief of an existence of your imaginary friend. first define god, then ill explain why we should compassionate in a universe without it. what is god? yes i have a problem with your biblical god they you believe in. he is homophobic, sexist, racist and genocidal. i have a problem with anything that malicious, yes. but you havent defined what god is. what is it?
@greken145 ok you just proved you have to resort to insults when you have no answer for the bullshit you have faith in. is that how simple you are? i am not mad at god. thats a fucking joke. thats like being mad at santa. god forgives? first prove he exists, then we will talk.
God not only allowed slavery - he allowed 1. Rape of female war captives 2. Killing women who weren't virgins 3. Killing Infants 4. Killing and mutilating animals 5. Killing homosexuals 6. Killing people who worship a different God 7. Killing people who pick up sticks on the Sabbath 8. Killing someone who accidently touches a box 9. Killing someone who masturbates 10. Accepting human sacrifice (Jephthah's daughter)
And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the
children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour."
You are a liar - dealing with rigour involved JEWISH slaves
Slaves of foreigners and all their children, and their children, and their children... are slaves forever
Leviticus 25:44-46 "Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. -continued-
@zelos88 Why do you discriminate with your skepticism? Do you hold Homer and George Washington is as much contempt as you do of the biblical God? Could it be that, despite the overwhelming evidence of God's existence--far more than Homer or George Washington--you pick and choose when you will be skeptical because Homer and Washington won't judge you for your sins? Well speaks the bible of your kind--"because they did not like to retain God in their knowledge" (Romans 1:28).
@zelos88 First, the God has NOTHING assertion--despite your 'caps' emphasis--is an incorrect and empty philosophical conjecture; i.e., an emotional statement based on your bias, not on the careful study of facts or argument. I could go into personal experience, fulfilled prophecy, archaeological confirmation, or historical records to cite a few evidences the God of the bible is true. But just as your written response is evidence of your existence, God's record is of his.
Now I understand! You are saying that your almighty and powerful god did not want to upset the poor man&child-beating slave owners too much, lest he hurt their feelings. What a wonderful idea! Glad to see that he gave them more respect than people eating lobster, or kids who speak back at their dad.
Actually, this completely explains Republican morality as well. :)
@bobster451 Really, do you have any arguments? Anything thoughtful to say? Or are you just stepping in line with the "shout out the opposition" mentality that resorts to circumstantial ad hominem attacks because you have no real response to your opponents?
@bobster451 So, making fun of a position has now suddenly equated with producing a logical syllogism that leads to a deduction about myths failing to be true? Again, do you have anything real to say? If this is how you want ot play, I can easily say that you're absolutely delusional and devoid of any lucid thought.
@bobster451 The burden of proof lies with the person who makes the claim there is a god.
Your assertion that I am "making fun" is your conclusion rather than my reason for posting.
And using straw man and ad hominems to make your point further demonstrates your failure to show proof, as you are choosing to use logical fallacies rather than show even a tiny bit of observable data to the existence of you deity.
Until proof is apparent belief in such silliness is stupid.
You get stopped for driving drunk whether you hit someone or not. God said you only get in trouble if the slave dies. That's like saying we'll let you drive drunk until you hit someone.
@FujiwaraNoGo Think about this: Because YOU hold it objective then it is so...do you have any basis for that other than asserting your own position? If you have no basis, logically speaking, your entire moral system then is arbitrary (sans basis). What if someone came along with a different, conflicting assertion? What if someone said that the weak are expendable--and they held it as "objective fact"? Why, in your worldview, would they be wrong? How could you prosecute any crime this way?
@JesusIsUrSaviour You are mixing two things up here. People have a tendency towards working for the well-being of society. Believing that "the weak are expendable" and someone going out and killing others who he perceives as "weak" are two different things. The courts can prosecute this kind of crime because it is against the well-being of society (which people desire regardless if they believe in a god or not), without inciting morality.
@sidneycartonman My question is even more fundamental: What basis does a society have for being kind if there is no Biblical God? What is the BASIS for morality (without invoking a biblical presupposition)? Retreating to this "well-being" (recipricoal altruism) is only a vicious circle; it becomes a tautology; i.e., "Do good to others because it is good for others..." Whether someone "believes" the weak are expendable, or someone kills the weak--why is this wrong?
@JesusIsUrSaviour That's right! Without (your particular sub-sub sect of) christianity, there would be no morals. Looks at all those places and times where they aren't Christian! Totally lawless, killing and eating each-other. Just look how blood-thirsty Hindus and Budhists are!
@sidneycartonman If the court has no grounds for making a judgment, then the court is completely arbitrary--absurd and bottomless. If you have no basis for making moral judgments apart from your own opinion or what is good for others, how do you condemn or have a grounds to judge someone that comes along that does NOT believe you should do good to others? Why or who can you ever call someone like this "wrong?" Or can you? That's the point I am getting at...
@FujiwaraNoGo But I ask for one step further--how does atheism provide for the assumption that reducing suffering and increasing happiness is valid and important? What is suffering if there is no God? Isn't it just blind random chance or the natural course of things? What is happiness?
@FujiwaraNoGo You want to try and divorce righteousness from the God of righteousness. Let me ask you this: How does atheism provide a rational basis for the pity and empathy that precludes him from torturing, enslaving and killing?
@FujiwaraNoGo Are you saying that if you believed in God, repented of your sins, and trusted the shed blood of Jesus Christ for eternal life that you would not any conflict or need to curse God as you did in your original post? I respond with a question in turn to show you that your question is equally valid (or invalid rather). Asking me that is like asking me if I would be fly to Spain if there were no such thing as gravity...
@FujiwaraNoGo If you have an argument, please make it. If not, go back to the sand box and play with the rest of the kiddies if you can't carry on a meaningful conversation like an adult. "Every idle word that men shall speak they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment" (Matt 12:36-37)
@jesusisursaviour hi there. Thanks for the reply. Are you saying that athiests morals aren't really morals? I'm not quite following. Athiests don't get their morals from the bible - and to be honest the bible is immoral in many places. Being able to enslave someone for life and will them to your children is immoral. Morals are still morals whether the bible exists or not. Take care
@jesusisursaviour I know many fine atheist with strong morals - they do not need the bible to teach them how to be moral. Societies determine what is best for their survival and also we have the evolutionary mechanism of reciprocal altruism. Many people have differing views on where morals come from, but it is certain that not all people get their morals from the bible. Merry Christmas and god bless
@bagospannerz I agree--there are many moral atheists. The point is, how does their atheism provide for morality? In effect, a moral atheist is a contradiction in terms. Atheism provides no basis for an objective reality. Atheists must rely unwittingly on biblical presuppositions in order to make moral judgements. The circular argument for evolutionary mechanisms is a poor and insufficient rationale for being moral agents in a supposed struggle for life where only the fit survive.
@JesusIsUrSaviour Atheism is a disbelief in god, not a basis for morality. Evolution is an explanation of the diversity in life, not a basis of morality. Evolution does NOT say only the fit survive, is says individuals with features best suited for survival in a given environment are more likely to survive. Man's greatest survival trait is his ability to cooperate with others. This is the basis for the evolution of morality.
@jesusisursaviour hi there. Thanks for the reply. I'm sorry I can't give a bible verse, I have a disorder similar to dyslexia and often get bible references wrong - but I do know that some slaves were property for life, and could be inherited by the children of those who owned the slaves. Why would god agree to this? Would I be right in thinking you are asking where morals come from without god?
Hi there. Interesting video but i still don't understand how god clearly condones people being property to be willed to children. I am also not sure what your point is about chemicals. Thanks
@bagospannerz Well, could you clarify the first point? Verse? Evidence? Secondly, the point about chemicals is this. If there is NO God, how do you justify a moral judgment against an injustice like slavery? If we are just chemical reactions, how does the evolutionist or atheist justify the morality he uses to condemn God for slavery? Ultimately, the skeptics' moral complaint here uses biblical principles of empathy and mercy to try and refute the bible.
This is a terrible explanation. It says in the Bible in various passages that slaves (or servants if you want to call it) are OWNED as PROPERTY. No matter what way you put it, or how well they were treated, they were still treated as property. To be sold and traded. A girl sold into slavery could only be sold back to her parents if she didn't please her master. (whatever that means... mmm). A person was allowed to beat his slave as long as they didn't die... eeergh... How is that moral?
Your analogy with drunk driving laws is very flawed. If drunk driving laws existed in the manner you say Exodus 21 treats slavery, then current law would not say driving drunk is illegal and if you get caught here is the punishment, they would state we can't stop you so if you're going to do it here are the conditions under which you can.
By the way, this video is just a huge failure...slavery is most definitely condoned in the bible...you cannot rectify, justify, or twist this fact into making it seem otherwise
@1ProudFemaleAtheist Well, no, God does not condone our post-modern, abusive, "Roots"-style slavery. But even so, if there is no God, can you explain why it is wrong to abuse another human being for your own ends? Moreover, what basis do you have for any kind of objective morality like the ones you posit in these posts?
Yes,. i can explain why it is wrong. Because freedom is a fundamental human right. No God necessary, see?
And sorry but owning another human being is slavery pure and simple - it does not matter what period of time it exists at all. Like I said - HUGE FAILURE.
@1ProudFemaleAtheist Actually, you have failed to support your atheism. Why, in your worldview, is it wrong to own a human? Why would a chemical reaction have any choice? Where would these fundamental rights come from? Human life has decency if God is true; we were made in his image at one time. But asserting that we deserve freedom without a basis leaves your atheism arbitrary. Is baking soda free to react with vinegar? Then why are you free to choose anything?
I have not failed at all. Freedom is a basic right. We are not merely "chemical reactions" - this makes no sense at all. We are highly evolved beings who live in COOPERATIVE societies; our morals have EVOLVED as well, and this is why it was "okay" at one time in our history to own another person - and now it is not. We are able to deduce that slavery is wrong based upon our ability to EMPATHIZE - put ourselves "in the place" of the person being wronged, and asking "would we like it?"
You have not stated how God is necessary to deduce right from wrong. Can you explain that? You are the one making the statement that God is necessary for this or that to exist - but you do not state HOW OR WHY.
How does human life have decency "if God is true?" But apparently does not - without? You are stating that human decency only exists if we are immortal, right? And that makes sense to you? And what about people who completely lack all human decency - mass murderers etc?
It's funny that I just listened to a debate between an Atheist and a Muslim where the Muslim was ranting about how it's so obvious that the Quran is the final word of Allah and it's ridiculous for anyone to deny it. Perhaps you two should get together and try to convert each other. That should be entertaining as hell.
Followed by "God provided the blood of a physical lamb to deliver people from physical slavery."
I seem to recall that this god character in the bible [chose] to delivery people from slavery by murdering children (after torturing them with plagues.) Slavery that he ignored for hundreds of years. The god of Exodus is anything but kind and compassionate. He's a prick.
@fusedchromosome Yes, God is very kind and compassionate. The fact that you got through that post and are still breathing is evidence of his mercy. Truly, the fool hath said in his heart there is no God. That is why you read the Exodus story with bitterness and contempt--because you have told yourself that there is no God. But, for argument's sake, why would anything you described above be cruel if there was no God?
P1) The fact that I got through that post still breathing is more compatible with the fact that he doesn't exist.
"Why would anything you described above be cruel if there was no God?"
You really need to step back and think about that one. Apparently, you need to refer to your pet holy book every time you need to decide how you feel or what you think. That is a condition I do not suffer from.
I didn't start Exodus with contempt but that's certainly where I ended up.
So now I'm curious. Your all-powerful, all-loving deity could have rescued the Jews from slavery any way he chose but he deliberately set the stage so that he would get a chance to torture and kill children. If there's an afterlife, I'm thinking your deity and Hitler and Stalin are hanging out, having drinks and making bets on who's more creative at inflicting suffering.
And let's not forget all the amazing bacteria, viruses, and parasites that your deity must have been up all night inventing. He must have been slapping himself on the back, laughing at Stalin and Hitler. Probably something like: "Boys...give it up...you ain't got nutt'n on old Yahweh. You wanna see some suffering, check this out!
@fusedchromosome Could you explain please how the concepts of compassion, e empathy, and mercy make sense in a universe where there is no God? What I mean is, how does your atheistic worldview account or provide the basis for the concepts you are relying on here to make your case against the biblical God?
Compassion, empathy, and mercy are critical to (and make perfect sense in) a society that hopes to survive and thrive. A god isn't required as part of the equation. Without them, society degrades. I suppose if you're some kind of hermit that wants to live in a cave, these attributes won't make any difference.
If you're saying a god is required to possess these traits, you need to back that up.
Some of the least compassionate, empathetic people are devoutly religious.
@fusedchromosome No, compassion and empathy and mercy are not critical to survival at all. First, you have not even provided a mechanism for creatures who are at the mercy of chemical reactions to even have the ability to choose, and thereby have the ability to choose to show mercy. Second, the "survival of the fittest" scenario often posited by evolutionists is in direct contradiciton of concepts like mercy and empathy.
@fusedchromosome Defaulting to people who claimed to be "religious" as proof of God's lack of empathy is riddled with logical fallacies and errors in reasoning. Would you allow me to defer to the Columbine shooters as a way to generalize all evolutionists? God became a man to die for the sins of man--that is the defintion of empathy and compassion. I have nothing to prove--if we were made by a God who would do that, it makes sense that we have an ability to empathize and show mercy.
"Defaulting to people who claim to be religious as proof of God's lack of empathy..."
Where the hell did I say it was "proof" of God's lack of empathy? I'm noticing a trend here where you attempt to twist comments in order to give yourself a better target to attack. You must have studied under William Lane Craig. Did I or did I not say "SOME" of the least compassionate...?"
"God became a man to die for the sins of man..." Empathy? Compassion? Change your medication.
And what do "you" call torturing and killing children?
Or ordering the killing of everything even down to the livestock?
Or putting out a commandment like "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" and not even bothering to specify how to identify a witch. How many innocents suffered horrific deaths because of that one.
You've got a very twisted view of what constitutes compassion and mercy. You sound like a Hitler groupy.
@fusedchromosome In your response, you fail to acknowledge or understand the whole picture--God is God and judges all men. He decrees what is right and what is wrong. This is the rock of truth the Lord Jesus Christ spoke of (Matt 7:23-27) rather than the shifting sands of man's opinion, which you demonstrate yet again. As God, he told the Egyptians to let his people go. He showed them miracles. He repeatedly warned them. Cont...
@1ProudFemaleAtheist What exactly are you talking about? The Bible never says it is wrong to work on Sunday. Plus, I can give you the references where abuse and rape are listed as sinful. Do you know the Bible or are you reacting to something you have not even read because of the implication it bears on making you accountable to God?
I will not be accountable to God because there is no God. And if I am wrong, I have nothing to fear. I'm leading a life that should be very "pleasing" to any rational, just, holy God. Where in the bible does it say molesting and rape are "sinful?" I would like you to point that out, and try to provide justification why these would NOT be commandments - but making graven images and honoring your father and mother are? That seems rational to you?
@fusedchromosome Only after repeated pleadings and warnings did God's judgment fall. And yet, in his mercy, God provided a way of escape through the blood of lamb applied to the door post--a picture of the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, who shed his blood to deliver us from the wrath to come. All those who believed God--Egyptians included, not just the Hebrews--were spared and delivered. I would urge you to repent of your sins and trust the blood of Christ and you too can and will be redeemed.
@fusedchromosome Regarding witches, the scripture has much to say on the subject, contrary to your claim. A witch was clearly involved in divination--the female counterpart of a wizard. There are several passages that make this clear besides the one you quoted--Leviticus 19:31, 20:6, 27; 1 Samuel 28:7-25; Deut 18:10. So the scripture does specify and your hypothetical "how many suffered" is only proof of your assumptions. God is righteous. And God is love (1 John 4:9).
@fusedchromosome Still, I am interested to see how killing and bloodshed are wrong or immoral according to your worldview. You are yet to provide a basis for these concepts--what you're doing is borrowing biblical presuppositions to try and disprove the Bible. Evolutionary naturalism provides no basis for your indignation. In fact, death and bloodshed are merely a natural part of life in your schema, so why all the disgust? This is where you refute yourself.
@fusedchromosome Lastly, the Hitler comment is not only wrong but also a sign of your desperation. You have twisted the scriptures, you've twisted my position, you've even twisted your own worldview to blame God for things you should have no problem with. If anything, Hitler was the fruit of the evolutionary dogma you cling to--believing that he could remove "a parasite in the body of nations" (the Jews) in his "kempf" (struggle) sounds a lot more like twisted biology than bible.
@JesusIsUrSaviour you make me lose faith in humanity. everytime i think i love people again, i find someone like you, and i immediately resent them again...
@SuperFeimer Why should you have any faith in humanity? The Bible says, "Every man at his best state is altogether vanity" (Ps 39:5). Even so, if there is no God and we're just a conglomeration of chemical reactions, how and why could you or should you have faith in anything?
Why should you have faith in what the bible says? Because you've been told to? Because the bible says you should? If there is no God, we are NOT "just a conglomeration" of chemical reactions. Why do you think there has to be God in order for life to have meaning? Says who? I think my life is very meaningful, but the meaning simply exists here and now - not beyond death.
@1ProudFemaleAtheist Here's the point--what rational basis do you have for your life having any meaning if God does not exist? To be rational, you need to have a basis for the meaning in your life. To just say your life is meaningful because you say so leaves you arbitrary and irrational. You make claims without any reasoning behind them. Do you have an cogent arguments for your atheism or is it an emotional-knee jerk reaction like this post?
The basis for the meaning in my life is enjoying life - loving family and friends, and meaningful work. It's simple, and perfectly rational. What basis do you have for God being the only way life has meaning? That makes no sense. YOU ARE THE ONE not supplying reasons.
Is "keeping the Sabbath Holy' not one of the 10 commandments? Is this not "working on Sunday?" yet, it is NOT listed as a commandment not to rape or molest.
@fusedchromosome You, however, need to show how natural processes in a universe where the biblical God does not exist, where we are the result of blind chemical reactions in the struggle for life, develop a logical, rational, reasonable basis for showing mercy, for laying our lives on the line for others, for being able to put ourselves in another's shoes. Simply saying, "without it, we'd degenerate" is an empty and arbitrary attempt to rationalize what is an absurd position.
An absurd position is pretending you know "what's behind the curtain." Your kind have been making these bald claims for thousands of years. Either open the curtain already or don't be surprised when we don't take you seriously. Your "the answer is supernatural" until someone demonstrates otherwise has failed miserably and retarded the quest for real knowledge. Every time science destroys one of your claims, you redraw the line in the sand and pretend nothing happened.
@fusedchromosome Your refusal to answer the question does much to reveal what is behind your responses. You are so devoted to the religion of naturalism that you fail to see how it skews your interpretation. Your position is irrational and absurd because, as a naturalist, you have no basis for the claims you make--in your naturalistic assumptions you fail to provide a rational basis for those things you presuppose--mercy, compassion, etc. As such, your atheism remain an arbitrary position.
@fusedchromosome Your naturalism, in turn, can never lead to real knowledge--it does not provide the preconditions of an intelligible universe. Rather, if you follow your beliefs through--that we are matter and energy reacting according to natural processes--no one can know anything--there is no will, no reason, no logic and certainly no choice to make one compassionate. Real science only confirms the science--evolutionary naturalism, however, is a system of flawed and circular reasoning.
@fusedchromosome When Jesus Christ died on the cross, the temple veil was rent in twain. In other words, the curtain is open to all those who come unto God. You have not answered any questions; you have not substantiated your own contradictory beliefs. In short, do you have any reasonable arguments for your atheism? Or is it just an emotional reaction, a prejudicial conjecture you propagate to soothe your rebellious heart? I have been upfront; it's you doing the hiding.
JesusIsUrSaviour has figured out a way to escape the questions. he either quotes from verses or asks questions (answer that). but never answers himself.
@nayanmalig That's not true. But the bigger problem is that your atheism remains an arbitrary worldview, devoid of any ability to provide for those things you appeal to--justice, mercy, compassion. For these things to exist, you must borrow biblical presuppositions, affirming the Bible in your quest to deny it, and thereby refuting yourself.
@JesusIsUrSaviour what anger? is it evil to ask for the release of slaves? "anger" is a common belly ache of christian fanatics when they are stuck for answers. it is the bible which orders to take revenge. that's anger. same book promotes slavery. so we know that u do not care about slavery. u support slavery with all your faith & heart. that's why u keep defending it.
atheist countries like scandinavia are not only compassionate but they have the highest living standard in the world. no slavery like in the USA (mexican slave labour) or africa either,
@JesusIsUrSaviour according to statististics all the nations that have turned religious are turning into hell. afghanistan, iran, pakistan etc. soon the christian countries might follow them by leaving their secular beliefs behind. then u can start stoning criminals. best of luck.
@JesusIsUrSaviour why do i have to explain justice? justice will always be justice. just like an egg. egg will never become an apple. look up the dictionary. does the dictionary refer to god when describing "justice"? you obviously believe that there is life outside the earth. otherwise how do you claim "in the universe"? has god created life outside the earth & is there injustice in those worlds too?
@nayanmalig In order to be rational, you must have reasons for your argument. You appeal to justice without a basis for justice existing in your God-less universe. For me, the fact that we demand justice makes sense because our Creator is a God of truth who promises to ultimately make all wrongs right and judge the world in righteousness. On the other hand, why should we be just if there is no God? Throwing up your hands as you do in your post only shows that your atheism is arbitrary.
@JesusIsUrSaviour my answers are simple. i don't need any reasons as long as they make sense. you may demand justice, but i don't see any results. that makes no sense to me. problem with you is that you think everything has to have a reason. not only that you think you know the reasons as well as all the answers.
@nayanmalig You have not provided any answers, just contradictions. I don't need reasons as long as they make sense? Having a reason or an argument for your claim is the bedrock of being rational. As it stands, your angst towards God has been shown to be an irrational, emotional bias. Do you have any reasons for not believing or will you continue to rest your soul on the empty premise of your unbelief? Your excuses won't stand on the day of judgement.
@JesusIsUrSaviour. I believe in what is right. if a person wants to be just cos a book threatens him with eternal hell he's a sneaky, deluded coward. it's like not murdering somebody because the police is around. only criminals think like that. ur angst to other religions & their gods will not stand the day of their judgements. do you have reasons for not believing in them & what are they?
@nayanmalig Saying you believe in what is right because it is right (which is what you've said) is the very same circular reasoning Christians are accused of. How do you decide what is "right"?
@JesusIsUrSaviour would you murder people if the police was absent? do people who have never read the bible go on rampages? how do they decide what is "right"?
@knineu02 What makes it wrong if there is no God? I contend that the God of the Bible, "the Father of mercies" (2 Cor 1), provides a rational basis for mercy and compassion. But if we are all just mindless chemicals in the struggle for life, how do you explain empathy? Compassion? Justice? Truth? If we're all just the result of biological determinism, do we even have a way to choose to be compassionate?
@knineu02 I tell you what, You come here and be my slave, I'll treat you nicely, but I get to OWN you. Is that what you would like? It is better for humanity to treat others as you would like to be treated. I would not like to be a slave. I would also not impose that on anyone else either. Morals do not come from your invisible sky faerie. If you cannot see why slavery is wrong without your god, by all means KEEP ON BELIEVING! We wouldn't want you to enslave others!
@knineu02 Have you read the passages where people were selling themselves into service in order to pay off their debts? Your comments are prejudicial conjectures, incomplete or misinformed statements based mainly on your innate bias towards the bible. This is evidenced by your "invisible sky faerie" comment. I agree people should not be treated as animals like you suggest. I have a reason why--what is your basis for the Goldren Rule apart from God?
5. Even without 'rigor', though, the bible does condone holding a person against their will, and forcing them into servitude, as shown when the bible explains what type of people you can own in Leviticus 25:44-46.
6. The bible may claim that your good is merciful, but damning someone to eternal torture for ideology isn't merciful in the least.
7. Yes, regulating sinful behavior is condoning sinful behavior. He allows it to go on, when he could prohibit it completely, so he is condoning it.
8. Your law analogy is flawed. The bible is saying 'If he dies instantly, you're screwed, if he lives for a little while, it's completely fine that you beat him', while the law says 'If you drive drunk, you will go to jail'. No wiggle room there, unlike with the bible.
9. The slavery in the bible is making someone your property because they are poor (Exodus 22:3, Lev 25:39) and forcing them into labor against their will. That is slavery by definition.
10. No, God revealed himself to Moses as a god who would take his favorite children out of bondage, but it states (Lev 25:44-46) that the Israelites were allowed to buy slaves from other nations.
11. Now that I take a closer look at your claim that God doesn't want us to 'rule over each other with rigor', he is only speaking of the Israelites. It doesn't prohibit the beating of any other slaves, therefore, he's condoning it.
12. The 'no compassion and mercy without god' argument is entirely flawed, and has been refuted millions of times. Morality has evolved through Darwinian evolution because it allows us to work better as a group, ensuring a higher rate of survival for our species as a whole. Therefore, it's best to be compassionate and merciful because we fit into society better, and our species survives better.
13. Your God is anything but kind and compassionate. He is a malignant bastard who doesn't exist.
14. Actually, the bible says that you should sacrifice a lamb if you rape one of your female servants who is engaged, and that she should be whipped. (Leviticus 19:20-22)
15. Sin has not yet been proven to exist, so I don't believe that I can be the servant of it. I am not controlled by any 'sinful' acts I commit.
God does condone slavery. Why else should he talk about how to do it in the first place if he does not allow us to do it?
You are saying that your perfect God does not want us to do it, but if we happen to do it he wants us to do it the right way.... I don't even know what to say to that.
So, why didn't God outright ban slavery? Also, If God is against slavery, way does Exodus 21:2 instruct how long you can keep a Hebrew you purchased? Verse 4 Tells that woman can't go free.
Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
@Nihilist127 It seems that if you read a bit further you would realize that the rule about not being cruel to slaves only applies to other israelites.
@Nihilist127 Well, I do not agree or accept that God promotes the cruel slavery you suggest. But I wonder, why would being cruel to a nother person be wrong if there is no God?
@JesusIsUrSaviour How does the existence of "God" make something moral or immoral. My understanding is that no matter what act "God" takes it is morally good. So if god ordered everyone to rape children it would be immoral not to. At this point objective morality does not exist and morality is subjective to God. So if god says you can be cruel to non Jewish slaves you can be as cruel as you want to other human beings and have it be morally acceptable.
@JesusIsUrSaviour You're asking a nihilist whether something can be objectively right or wrong. Think about that for a moment. How does there being a god make slavery either morally acceptable or morally wrong? Because by definition anything god says to do is morally good you don't have any ground to stand on because you can't even conceive of an order from god that is evil.
@Nihilist127 No, I am saying this: You object to God because you claim that the Bible sanctions slavery. My question is, If there is no God, why do you have a problem with slavery? On what basis do you object? If you must borrow a biblical concept like compassion and empathy to disprove God, you only refute yourself.
@JesusIsUrSaviour Compassion and empathy are NOT biblical concepts. If compassion and empathy were only biblical concepts then there would be no human society where the bible was not.
There are quite a few problems with slavery. Ignoring the suffering societies that use slavery tend to be less productive than those that don't. Slaves take more work to manage than paid workers. Ultimately you can make a machine that can do the work of many slave at less cost. Slavery is inefficient.
@Nihilist127 I don't believe in morality. However I don't spread suffering when cooperation, empathy, and compassion will bring greater rewards. Now how can you object to slavery when your god explicitly supports it? Because if god makes it morally acceptable to sell your daughter into sexual slavery Exodus 21:7-8. Then you cannot make a moral objection to it if you believe that everything god commands is morally right.
@JesusIsUrSaviour bible encourages slavery even instructing how to beat them. "if there is no god" has no relevance. we are speaking about the bible. it exists & you believe it. that's it.
@JesusIsUrSaviour if u do not accept that bible promoites slavery, ur stubborn & u don't believe the bible. u believe ur own dreams. as simple as that.
@ElvisKnucklehead It would be more of a pleasure to see you actually say something than a silly and immature "drive by" like that. I realize you have this anger and hatred of God, but I think you should take it up with him. If you think the proverbial fist shaking you exercises by calling someone a name does anything to affect God, you are and will find out you are sorely mistaken.
@JesusIsUrSaviour I honestly have as much "anger and hatred of god" as I do for the loch ness monster, odin, bigfoot, the easter bunny or any other mythical "being". I'm just not one to fear a fictional character.
There is no equivocation. Colonial and biblical slavery were both owning people as property. Period. God can make slavery illegal but for some reason only allows jewish slaves to be illegal. Which is another example of the god of the bible being racist. Did I mention the bible is a jewish folklore?
NekoD3m0n 1 month ago
@NekoD3m0n If there is no God, what is your basis for objecting to slavery? Namely, what grounds does atheism provide to justify compassion and mercy, equitable treatment and justice? Truth and verity? Can your worldview stand on its own presuppositions or must you borrow God's in order to discredit Him?
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 month ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour Atheism has NO stance or say so on morals and it's not a worldview. It's like asking how your favorite sport justifies slavery as being wrong. Sports are not meant to do that. I do not get my morals from 'not being a theist'. My morals are based on empathy. Common sense allows me to tell your a human being like me. I don't like getting stabbed in the face. Now this is just a wild speculation but im guessing YOU don't like getting stabbed in the face either. How did I know that?
NekoD3m0n 1 month ago
@NekoD3m0n I guess that means we can both rule out stabbing people in the face as a 'good' thing. Now I don't like my stuff getting stolen so im guessing (and this is really just a shot in the dark but) you don't like your stuff getting stolen either? Okay so we can make a law on that being wrong. See where this is going? Now im not black or gay so I can see why those people are lesser human beings and should be treated as so. JUST KIDDING ;]
NekoD3m0n 1 month ago
@NekoD3m0n So you admit that atheism as a worldview has no basis for empathy. In order to empathize, then, you must do so in spite of your atheism. Hence, atheism can not provide for the presuppositions you use to make these moral judgments and is thereby self-refuting.
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 month ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour 'Not being a theist' is not a worldview. It's just not being a theist. Your right, I admit that not being a theist does not create a guideline for empathy or morals. Nor did I ever claim that non-theism provides you with morals. So i'm not sure what your claiming to refute besides your own strange strawman argument. Just because atheism does not provide you with morals and our empathy does provide them does not make 'not being a theist' or atheism an invalid position.
NekoD3m0n 1 month ago
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NekoD3m0n 1 month ago
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@JesusIsUrSaviour Im not sure what your viewing atheism as. It seems to me you might be confusing atheism with a religion that is supposed to provide morals to its believers. Maybe your thinking of secular humanism?
NekoD3m0n 1 month ago
Oh okay I get it. So what your saying is If someone is in debt to me I can force them to become my servant but I can't treat them with rigor like colonial slaves which means I can't beat them to death I can only beat them until they get up after a day or two. God is so loving and kind.
NekoD3m0n 1 month ago
You are lying for your god.
halolIlmao0 1 month ago
If smite with a rod - is clearly condoning.It should be: do not smite a servant with a rod or any other way.If servant dies from beating-you must be punished, but if dies after day or two-then no punishment requried?How about just plane simple:''Do not own/by,sell another person as a property'' It's so obviously written by man / shepards, according to a bronz age tribal society
Aleksamson 2 months ago
Jesus is dead and powerless.
Unclenick2012 5 months ago
Is this video uploaded only to be seen in an attempt to convert? Will you acknowledge or answer any question posted?
88Keyz101 6 months ago
There was two types of slavery
1. Of Israelites
2. Of Foreigners
Based on which type you were resulted in the treatment you received.
What difference does man-stealing make if you can steal the entire life of a slave born in your house who will never know freedom? What crime did the person born into slavery make? Why didn't God prescribe freedom for them at some point? Maybe because slaves are awesome for slave owners and the bible was written by men who owned slaves.
caposton 6 months ago 6
Ephesians 6:5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.
New Living Translation (©2007)
"If a man has sex with a slave girl whose freedom has never been purchased but who is committed to become another man's wife, he must pay full compensation to her master. But since she is not a free woman, neither the man nor the woman will be put to death.
Slavery is wrong. It has always been wrong. And you, sir, are wrong.
caposton 6 months ago
Are you saying there are NO moral atheists? Are you saying all Christians are more moral than all atheists.
What about CONDONING the stoning of disobedient children or killing anyone that has premarital sex? Should we still practice these?
caposton 6 months ago
If you think slavery is the ONLY issue atheists have with God's character you're wrong.
Christians fall under the "Might Makes Right" view of morality. Just because God is powerful, his actions aren't necessarily "good". Let's determine if God is good by his actions.
1. God kills 42 kids with bears for calling a prophet a "baldy"
2. God has Jepthah sacrifice his daughter as a burnt offering in exchange for military victory
3. God drowns everything: kittens, babies, little handicapped kids, etc
caposton 6 months ago
Actually,
New International Version (©1984)
You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your FELLOW ISRAELITES ruthlessly.
There are actually two standards for slaves: Slaves who are israelites and slaves who are foreigners. Foreigners can be owned forever. Israelites are to be released in 7 years. You can beat foreign slaves, you can't beat israelite slaves.
If God was against slavery he could have said - NO SLAVES
caposton 6 months ago
he does condone it. "if he continue a day or two, he shall NOT be punished: FOR HE IS HIS MONEY
SpilkyWay 6 months ago
What I love about you religious types, you never know what kind of crazy things you're gonna come up with next, Keep it up, it is really worth a laugh.
samhill1100 7 months ago
its obvious that the bible it self supports slavery nd its incredible how this guy try to racionalize it so it sounds better, just to protect his maniac god yaweh.
nellisonking 8 months ago
@nellisonking Whar slavery was back then is what bosses-employers are today. And Jesus never came to change sociaty, he came to save our souls and learn us how to treat each other. 'Do for others just what you want them to do for you."
greken145 8 months ago
"why should we be kind" Because evolution has made us empathetic and sympathetic because we are mammals we are social animals and we require each other for multiple reasons...
"He is your property" <=== that doesn't condone slavery?
crimsonkiing 9 months ago
This is actually pretty good, there are way more information to talk about on this topic that ignorant Atheist doesn't seem to want to grasp. Simple minded people would use this argument but people who knows who to think actually don't use this at all. People are just hating but either way nice job, someone used this on me and I just destroyed this idiot with it... Stupid....
samuellis 9 months ago
i wish your family were my servents. id beat the piss out of them up on a daily. it would be ok since your god said it was ok if they didnt die in a day or 2
mekishiko1919 9 months ago
@mekishiko1919 First, I do not agree with you that the Bible condones the modern concept of "harsh slavery" associated with colonial imperialism, etc. The Bible forbids such slave trade in both testaments--Ex 21:16, 1 Tim 1:10. Israelites could sell themselves as a slave/bondservant to have their debts covered, make a wage, have housing and be set free after six years. Foreigners could sell themselves as a slave/bondservant as well. Cont..
JesusIsUrSaviour 9 months ago
@mekishiko1919 Furthermore, The Bible recognizes that slavery is a reality in this sin-cursed world and doesn’t ignore it, but instead gives regulations for good treatment by both masters and servants and reveals they are equal under Christ (Eph 6:5, etc). The contradiction of your godless worldview that cries out for compassion has no basis. Why treat people humanely if we are chemical reactions in a struggle for life? Hungry lions don't empathize with grazing gazelles. cont....
JesusIsUrSaviour 9 months ago
@mekishiko1919 No, you must unwittingly evoke a biblical presupposition--that we are made in the image of God and thereby have a sanctity to our lives--in order to try and refute the biblical God for being cruel and abusing life. In short, you affirm the biblical God and refute yourself.
JesusIsUrSaviour 9 months ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour your gibberish itself is an assumption. what god? can you prove it exists? if he does, you follow an evil fuck of a god that does condone slavery. its clearly in your doctrine
mekishiko1919 9 months ago
@mekishiko1919 All I am asking is, if there is no God of compassion as the Bible describes, on what grounds do you have to condone slavery as cruel or harsh? In other words, how does your atheism provide for compassion, mercy, justice--all the concepts you evoke to condemn the inhumane treatment of another person? If there is no God and we're all chemical reactions, why bother?
JesusIsUrSaviour 9 months ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour why bother? maybe because we are alive and have to account for each other. why does a god have to be the only source of compassion, mercy and justice? if your doctrine your imaginary friend condones slavery, child sacrifice, genocide among other horrors. where is the compassion, mercy and justice in that? just because you say it is not so, doesnt no make it so. it is clearly in your doctrine
mekishiko1919 9 months ago
@mekishiko1919 You still have not answered the question: How does atheism account for compassion and mercy? If atheism cannot support or provide a rational basis for these concepts you evoke, then atheism is, logically speaking, irrational. And no, it is not in my doctrine despite your efforts to repeat that empty and refuted claim. I would like an answer to the profound question above before discussing anything else.
JesusIsUrSaviour 9 months ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour i have not answered your question because it it invalid because it makes an assumption that is not true. athiesm is not a living thing and does not have a doctrine. athiesm is a lack of belief, the default position. you are making the claim a magic man exists and loves you. can you prove it? your book clearly claims differently
mekishiko1919 9 months ago
@mekishiko1919 Call it what you like, how does your lack of belief in a god provide a basis for the empathy you evoke to refute the Bibical God? Until you can respond, you're hiding behind straw men, red herrings, and semantics. "The fear of the Lord is beginning of knowledge; but fools despise wisdom and instruction" (Prov 1:7).
JesusIsUrSaviour 9 months ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour what straw men? because i dont believe in walking dead men, the virgin birth and the talking snake? its more like you are hiding behind fairies and zombies.why do you believe in the mythical figure you claim is real?
mekishiko1919 9 months ago
@mekishiko1919 Are 100s of fullfilled prophecies evidence for Gods existence?
greken145 8 months ago
@greken145 100s? like what? the virgin birth? the talking snake? church testimonies do not count
mekishiko1919 8 months ago
@mekishiko1919 Only 48 prophecies about Jesus in old testament have been fullfilled, many of these from Jesaja. The dead sea scrolls that were found in 1950s are evidence that they scripts were written before Jesus coming. And the talking snake is a symbolism if u know what that is..
greken145 8 months ago
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@greken145 please list them. and so the bible isnt literal then? or do you choose what parts you want to take literally?
mekishiko1919 8 months ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT) YOUR GOD IS AN ASS
mekishiko1919 9 months ago
@mekishiko1919 You still have not answered the question: Why should we be compassionate and just in a universe where there is no biblical God? How does empathy comport in a universe where there is no biblical God? You're running all over the place, spouting emotional epithets and philosophical conjectures. Do you have an argument? Can you answer the question? Or do you hate the idea of a righteous God so much you'll do anything to preserve your sinful autonomy?
JesusIsUrSaviour 9 months ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour wow! you want me to answer a question about something you havent defined yet. you cant assume i agree with your belief of an existence of your imaginary friend. first define god, then ill explain why we should compassionate in a universe without it. what is god? yes i have a problem with your biblical god they you believe in. he is homophobic, sexist, racist and genocidal. i have a problem with anything that malicious, yes. but you havent defined what god is. what is it?
mekishiko1919 9 months ago
@mekishiko1919 Another fag hating on God because God forbiddens homosexual actions. Dont give it up dude. God forgives everyone.
greken145 8 months ago
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@greken145 ok you just proved you have to resort to insults when you have no answer for the bullshit you have faith in. is that how simple you are? i am not mad at god. thats a fucking joke. thats like being mad at santa. god forgives? first prove he exists, then we will talk.
mekishiko1919 8 months ago
caposton 9 months ago
And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the
children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour."
You are a liar - dealing with rigour involved JEWISH slaves
Slaves of foreigners and all their children, and their children, and their children... are slaves forever
caposton 9 months ago
Leviticus 25:44-46 "Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. -continued-
caposton 9 months ago
@zelos88 Why do you discriminate with your skepticism? Do you hold Homer and George Washington is as much contempt as you do of the biblical God? Could it be that, despite the overwhelming evidence of God's existence--far more than Homer or George Washington--you pick and choose when you will be skeptical because Homer and Washington won't judge you for your sins? Well speaks the bible of your kind--"because they did not like to retain God in their knowledge" (Romans 1:28).
JesusIsUrSaviour 10 months ago
@zelos88 First, the God has NOTHING assertion--despite your 'caps' emphasis--is an incorrect and empty philosophical conjecture; i.e., an emotional statement based on your bias, not on the careful study of facts or argument. I could go into personal experience, fulfilled prophecy, archaeological confirmation, or historical records to cite a few evidences the God of the bible is true. But just as your written response is evidence of your existence, God's record is of his.
JesusIsUrSaviour 10 months ago
@zelos88 Well, if we take your rule of thumb up there, then you shouldn't talk until you prove that you exist.
JesusIsUrSaviour 10 months ago
Now I understand! You are saying that your almighty and powerful god did not want to upset the poor man&child-beating slave owners too much, lest he hurt their feelings. What a wonderful idea! Glad to see that he gave them more respect than people eating lobster, or kids who speak back at their dad.
Actually, this completely explains Republican morality as well. :)
obijan42 10 months ago
idiot apologetic crap.
bobster451 1 year ago
@bobster451 Really, do you have any arguments? Anything thoughtful to say? Or are you just stepping in line with the "shout out the opposition" mentality that resorts to circumstantial ad hominem attacks because you have no real response to your opponents?
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour I don't need any arguments.I am making a statement of fact.
Your myth fails to be true.
bobster451 1 year ago
@bobster451 So, making fun of a position has now suddenly equated with producing a logical syllogism that leads to a deduction about myths failing to be true? Again, do you have anything real to say? If this is how you want ot play, I can easily say that you're absolutely delusional and devoid of any lucid thought.
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@bobster451 The burden of proof lies with the person who makes the claim there is a god.
Your assertion that I am "making fun" is your conclusion rather than my reason for posting.
And using straw man and ad hominems to make your point further demonstrates your failure to show proof, as you are choosing to use logical fallacies rather than show even a tiny bit of observable data to the existence of you deity.
Until proof is apparent belief in such silliness is stupid.
bobster451 1 year ago
God stills says you can beat him. Period. How about saying "Don't hit anyone or you'll burn in hell"?
mavs2147 1 year ago
You get stopped for driving drunk whether you hit someone or not. God said you only get in trouble if the slave dies. That's like saying we'll let you drive drunk until you hit someone.
mavs2147 1 year ago 5
@FujiwaraNoGo Think about this: Because YOU hold it objective then it is so...do you have any basis for that other than asserting your own position? If you have no basis, logically speaking, your entire moral system then is arbitrary (sans basis). What if someone came along with a different, conflicting assertion? What if someone said that the weak are expendable--and they held it as "objective fact"? Why, in your worldview, would they be wrong? How could you prosecute any crime this way?
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour You are mixing two things up here. People have a tendency towards working for the well-being of society. Believing that "the weak are expendable" and someone going out and killing others who he perceives as "weak" are two different things. The courts can prosecute this kind of crime because it is against the well-being of society (which people desire regardless if they believe in a god or not), without inciting morality.
sidneycartonman 1 year ago
@sidneycartonman My question is even more fundamental: What basis does a society have for being kind if there is no Biblical God? What is the BASIS for morality (without invoking a biblical presupposition)? Retreating to this "well-being" (recipricoal altruism) is only a vicious circle; it becomes a tautology; i.e., "Do good to others because it is good for others..." Whether someone "believes" the weak are expendable, or someone kills the weak--why is this wrong?
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour That's right! Without (your particular sub-sub sect of) christianity, there would be no morals. Looks at all those places and times where they aren't Christian! Totally lawless, killing and eating each-other. Just look how blood-thirsty Hindus and Budhists are!
obijan42 10 months ago
@sidneycartonman If the court has no grounds for making a judgment, then the court is completely arbitrary--absurd and bottomless. If you have no basis for making moral judgments apart from your own opinion or what is good for others, how do you condemn or have a grounds to judge someone that comes along that does NOT believe you should do good to others? Why or who can you ever call someone like this "wrong?" Or can you? That's the point I am getting at...
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@FujiwaraNoGo But I ask for one step further--how does atheism provide for the assumption that reducing suffering and increasing happiness is valid and important? What is suffering if there is no God? Isn't it just blind random chance or the natural course of things? What is happiness?
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@FujiwaraNoGo You want to try and divorce righteousness from the God of righteousness. Let me ask you this: How does atheism provide a rational basis for the pity and empathy that precludes him from torturing, enslaving and killing?
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@FujiwaraNoGo Are you saying that if you believed in God, repented of your sins, and trusted the shed blood of Jesus Christ for eternal life that you would not any conflict or need to curse God as you did in your original post? I respond with a question in turn to show you that your question is equally valid (or invalid rather). Asking me that is like asking me if I would be fly to Spain if there were no such thing as gravity...
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@FujiwaraNoGo If you have an argument, please make it. If not, go back to the sand box and play with the rest of the kiddies if you can't carry on a meaningful conversation like an adult. "Every idle word that men shall speak they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment" (Matt 12:36-37)
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@jesusisursaviour hi there. Thanks for the reply. Are you saying that athiests morals aren't really morals? I'm not quite following. Athiests don't get their morals from the bible - and to be honest the bible is immoral in many places. Being able to enslave someone for life and will them to your children is immoral. Morals are still morals whether the bible exists or not. Take care
bagospannerz 1 year ago
@jesusisursaviour I know many fine atheist with strong morals - they do not need the bible to teach them how to be moral. Societies determine what is best for their survival and also we have the evolutionary mechanism of reciprocal altruism. Many people have differing views on where morals come from, but it is certain that not all people get their morals from the bible. Merry Christmas and god bless
bagospannerz 1 year ago
@bagospannerz I agree--there are many moral atheists. The point is, how does their atheism provide for morality? In effect, a moral atheist is a contradiction in terms. Atheism provides no basis for an objective reality. Atheists must rely unwittingly on biblical presuppositions in order to make moral judgements. The circular argument for evolutionary mechanisms is a poor and insufficient rationale for being moral agents in a supposed struggle for life where only the fit survive.
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour Atheism is a disbelief in god, not a basis for morality. Evolution is an explanation of the diversity in life, not a basis of morality. Evolution does NOT say only the fit survive, is says individuals with features best suited for survival in a given environment are more likely to survive. Man's greatest survival trait is his ability to cooperate with others. This is the basis for the evolution of morality.
bogusnachos 10 months ago
@jesusisursaviour hi there. Thanks for the reply. I'm sorry I can't give a bible verse, I have a disorder similar to dyslexia and often get bible references wrong - but I do know that some slaves were property for life, and could be inherited by the children of those who owned the slaves. Why would god agree to this? Would I be right in thinking you are asking where morals come from without god?
bagospannerz 1 year ago
Hi there. Interesting video but i still don't understand how god clearly condones people being property to be willed to children. I am also not sure what your point is about chemicals. Thanks
bagospannerz 1 year ago
@bagospannerz Well, could you clarify the first point? Verse? Evidence? Secondly, the point about chemicals is this. If there is NO God, how do you justify a moral judgment against an injustice like slavery? If we are just chemical reactions, how does the evolutionist or atheist justify the morality he uses to condemn God for slavery? Ultimately, the skeptics' moral complaint here uses biblical principles of empathy and mercy to try and refute the bible.
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
This is a terrible explanation. It says in the Bible in various passages that slaves (or servants if you want to call it) are OWNED as PROPERTY. No matter what way you put it, or how well they were treated, they were still treated as property. To be sold and traded. A girl sold into slavery could only be sold back to her parents if she didn't please her master. (whatever that means... mmm). A person was allowed to beat his slave as long as they didn't die... eeergh... How is that moral?
LobarRobotic 1 year ago
Your analogy with drunk driving laws is very flawed. If drunk driving laws existed in the manner you say Exodus 21 treats slavery, then current law would not say driving drunk is illegal and if you get caught here is the punishment, they would state we can't stop you so if you're going to do it here are the conditions under which you can.
byteme34015 1 year ago
By the way, this video is just a huge failure...slavery is most definitely condoned in the bible...you cannot rectify, justify, or twist this fact into making it seem otherwise
1ProudFemaleAtheist 1 year ago
@1ProudFemaleAtheist Well, no, God does not condone our post-modern, abusive, "Roots"-style slavery. But even so, if there is no God, can you explain why it is wrong to abuse another human being for your own ends? Moreover, what basis do you have for any kind of objective morality like the ones you posit in these posts?
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour
Yes,. i can explain why it is wrong. Because freedom is a fundamental human right. No God necessary, see?
And sorry but owning another human being is slavery pure and simple - it does not matter what period of time it exists at all. Like I said - HUGE FAILURE.
1ProudFemaleAtheist 1 year ago
@1ProudFemaleAtheist Actually, you have failed to support your atheism. Why, in your worldview, is it wrong to own a human? Why would a chemical reaction have any choice? Where would these fundamental rights come from? Human life has decency if God is true; we were made in his image at one time. But asserting that we deserve freedom without a basis leaves your atheism arbitrary. Is baking soda free to react with vinegar? Then why are you free to choose anything?
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
I have not failed at all. Freedom is a basic right. We are not merely "chemical reactions" - this makes no sense at all. We are highly evolved beings who live in COOPERATIVE societies; our morals have EVOLVED as well, and this is why it was "okay" at one time in our history to own another person - and now it is not. We are able to deduce that slavery is wrong based upon our ability to EMPATHIZE - put ourselves "in the place" of the person being wronged, and asking "would we like it?"
1ProudFemaleAtheist 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour
You have not stated how God is necessary to deduce right from wrong. Can you explain that? You are the one making the statement that God is necessary for this or that to exist - but you do not state HOW OR WHY.
How does human life have decency "if God is true?" But apparently does not - without? You are stating that human decency only exists if we are immortal, right? And that makes sense to you? And what about people who completely lack all human decency - mass murderers etc?
1ProudFemaleAtheist 1 year ago
It's funny that I just listened to a debate between an Atheist and a Muslim where the Muslim was ranting about how it's so obvious that the Quran is the final word of Allah and it's ridiculous for anyone to deny it. Perhaps you two should get together and try to convert each other. That should be entertaining as hell.
fusedchromosome 1 year ago
"...because he is kind and compassionate."
Followed by "God provided the blood of a physical lamb to deliver people from physical slavery."
I seem to recall that this god character in the bible [chose] to delivery people from slavery by murdering children (after torturing them with plagues.) Slavery that he ignored for hundreds of years. The god of Exodus is anything but kind and compassionate. He's a prick.
fusedchromosome 1 year ago
@fusedchromosome Yes, God is very kind and compassionate. The fact that you got through that post and are still breathing is evidence of his mercy. Truly, the fool hath said in his heart there is no God. That is why you read the Exodus story with bitterness and contempt--because you have told yourself that there is no God. But, for argument's sake, why would anything you described above be cruel if there was no God?
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour
P1) The fact that I got through that post still breathing is more compatible with the fact that he doesn't exist.
"Why would anything you described above be cruel if there was no God?"
You really need to step back and think about that one. Apparently, you need to refer to your pet holy book every time you need to decide how you feel or what you think. That is a condition I do not suffer from.
cont->
fusedchromosome 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour
P2)
I didn't start Exodus with contempt but that's certainly where I ended up.
So now I'm curious. Your all-powerful, all-loving deity could have rescued the Jews from slavery any way he chose but he deliberately set the stage so that he would get a chance to torture and kill children. If there's an afterlife, I'm thinking your deity and Hitler and Stalin are hanging out, having drinks and making bets on who's more creative at inflicting suffering.
fusedchromosome 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour
P3)
And let's not forget all the amazing bacteria, viruses, and parasites that your deity must have been up all night inventing. He must have been slapping himself on the back, laughing at Stalin and Hitler. Probably something like: "Boys...give it up...you ain't got nutt'n on old Yahweh. You wanna see some suffering, check this out!
fusedchromosome 1 year ago
@fusedchromosome Could you explain please how the concepts of compassion, e empathy, and mercy make sense in a universe where there is no God? What I mean is, how does your atheistic worldview account or provide the basis for the concepts you are relying on here to make your case against the biblical God?
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour
Compassion, empathy, and mercy are critical to (and make perfect sense in) a society that hopes to survive and thrive. A god isn't required as part of the equation. Without them, society degrades. I suppose if you're some kind of hermit that wants to live in a cave, these attributes won't make any difference.
If you're saying a god is required to possess these traits, you need to back that up.
Some of the least compassionate, empathetic people are devoutly religious.
fusedchromosome 1 year ago
@fusedchromosome No, compassion and empathy and mercy are not critical to survival at all. First, you have not even provided a mechanism for creatures who are at the mercy of chemical reactions to even have the ability to choose, and thereby have the ability to choose to show mercy. Second, the "survival of the fittest" scenario often posited by evolutionists is in direct contradiciton of concepts like mercy and empathy.
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@fusedchromosome Defaulting to people who claimed to be "religious" as proof of God's lack of empathy is riddled with logical fallacies and errors in reasoning. Would you allow me to defer to the Columbine shooters as a way to generalize all evolutionists? God became a man to die for the sins of man--that is the defintion of empathy and compassion. I have nothing to prove--if we were made by a God who would do that, it makes sense that we have an ability to empathize and show mercy.
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour
"Defaulting to people who claim to be religious as proof of God's lack of empathy..."
Where the hell did I say it was "proof" of God's lack of empathy? I'm noticing a trend here where you attempt to twist comments in order to give yourself a better target to attack. You must have studied under William Lane Craig. Did I or did I not say "SOME" of the least compassionate...?"
"God became a man to die for the sins of man..." Empathy? Compassion? Change your medication.
fusedchromosome 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour
"God became a man to die or the sins of man..."
And what do "you" call torturing and killing children?
Or ordering the killing of everything even down to the livestock?
Or putting out a commandment like "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" and not even bothering to specify how to identify a witch. How many innocents suffered horrific deaths because of that one.
You've got a very twisted view of what constitutes compassion and mercy. You sound like a Hitler groupy.
fusedchromosome 1 year ago
@fusedchromosome In your response, you fail to acknowledge or understand the whole picture--God is God and judges all men. He decrees what is right and what is wrong. This is the rock of truth the Lord Jesus Christ spoke of (Matt 7:23-27) rather than the shifting sands of man's opinion, which you demonstrate yet again. As God, he told the Egyptians to let his people go. He showed them miracles. He repeatedly warned them. Cont...
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour
"He decrees what is right and what is wrong"
Then it's "wrong" to work on Sunday. But it's okay to molest children and rape people, since those are NOT mentioned as "wrong."
1ProudFemaleAtheist 1 year ago
@1ProudFemaleAtheist What exactly are you talking about? The Bible never says it is wrong to work on Sunday. Plus, I can give you the references where abuse and rape are listed as sinful. Do you know the Bible or are you reacting to something you have not even read because of the implication it bears on making you accountable to God?
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour
I will not be accountable to God because there is no God. And if I am wrong, I have nothing to fear. I'm leading a life that should be very "pleasing" to any rational, just, holy God. Where in the bible does it say molesting and rape are "sinful?" I would like you to point that out, and try to provide justification why these would NOT be commandments - but making graven images and honoring your father and mother are? That seems rational to you?
1ProudFemaleAtheist 1 year ago
@fusedchromosome Only after repeated pleadings and warnings did God's judgment fall. And yet, in his mercy, God provided a way of escape through the blood of lamb applied to the door post--a picture of the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, who shed his blood to deliver us from the wrath to come. All those who believed God--Egyptians included, not just the Hebrews--were spared and delivered. I would urge you to repent of your sins and trust the blood of Christ and you too can and will be redeemed.
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@fusedchromosome Regarding witches, the scripture has much to say on the subject, contrary to your claim. A witch was clearly involved in divination--the female counterpart of a wizard. There are several passages that make this clear besides the one you quoted--Leviticus 19:31, 20:6, 27; 1 Samuel 28:7-25; Deut 18:10. So the scripture does specify and your hypothetical "how many suffered" is only proof of your assumptions. God is righteous. And God is love (1 John 4:9).
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@fusedchromosome Still, I am interested to see how killing and bloodshed are wrong or immoral according to your worldview. You are yet to provide a basis for these concepts--what you're doing is borrowing biblical presuppositions to try and disprove the Bible. Evolutionary naturalism provides no basis for your indignation. In fact, death and bloodshed are merely a natural part of life in your schema, so why all the disgust? This is where you refute yourself.
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@fusedchromosome Lastly, the Hitler comment is not only wrong but also a sign of your desperation. You have twisted the scriptures, you've twisted my position, you've even twisted your own worldview to blame God for things you should have no problem with. If anything, Hitler was the fruit of the evolutionary dogma you cling to--believing that he could remove "a parasite in the body of nations" (the Jews) in his "kempf" (struggle) sounds a lot more like twisted biology than bible.
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour you make me lose faith in humanity. everytime i think i love people again, i find someone like you, and i immediately resent them again...
SuperFeimer 1 year ago
@SuperFeimer Why should you have any faith in humanity? The Bible says, "Every man at his best state is altogether vanity" (Ps 39:5). Even so, if there is no God and we're just a conglomeration of chemical reactions, how and why could you or should you have faith in anything?
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour
Why should you have faith in what the bible says? Because you've been told to? Because the bible says you should? If there is no God, we are NOT "just a conglomeration" of chemical reactions. Why do you think there has to be God in order for life to have meaning? Says who? I think my life is very meaningful, but the meaning simply exists here and now - not beyond death.
1ProudFemaleAtheist 1 year ago
@1ProudFemaleAtheist Here's the point--what rational basis do you have for your life having any meaning if God does not exist? To be rational, you need to have a basis for the meaning in your life. To just say your life is meaningful because you say so leaves you arbitrary and irrational. You make claims without any reasoning behind them. Do you have an cogent arguments for your atheism or is it an emotional-knee jerk reaction like this post?
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour
The basis for the meaning in my life is enjoying life - loving family and friends, and meaningful work. It's simple, and perfectly rational. What basis do you have for God being the only way life has meaning? That makes no sense. YOU ARE THE ONE not supplying reasons.
Is "keeping the Sabbath Holy' not one of the 10 commandments? Is this not "working on Sunday?" yet, it is NOT listed as a commandment not to rape or molest.
I am a former Christian. I have read MUCH of it.
1ProudFemaleAtheist 1 year ago
@fusedchromosome You, however, need to show how natural processes in a universe where the biblical God does not exist, where we are the result of blind chemical reactions in the struggle for life, develop a logical, rational, reasonable basis for showing mercy, for laying our lives on the line for others, for being able to put ourselves in another's shoes. Simply saying, "without it, we'd degenerate" is an empty and arbitrary attempt to rationalize what is an absurd position.
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour
An absurd position is pretending you know "what's behind the curtain." Your kind have been making these bald claims for thousands of years. Either open the curtain already or don't be surprised when we don't take you seriously. Your "the answer is supernatural" until someone demonstrates otherwise has failed miserably and retarded the quest for real knowledge. Every time science destroys one of your claims, you redraw the line in the sand and pretend nothing happened.
fusedchromosome 1 year ago
@fusedchromosome Your refusal to answer the question does much to reveal what is behind your responses. You are so devoted to the religion of naturalism that you fail to see how it skews your interpretation. Your position is irrational and absurd because, as a naturalist, you have no basis for the claims you make--in your naturalistic assumptions you fail to provide a rational basis for those things you presuppose--mercy, compassion, etc. As such, your atheism remain an arbitrary position.
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@fusedchromosome Your naturalism, in turn, can never lead to real knowledge--it does not provide the preconditions of an intelligible universe. Rather, if you follow your beliefs through--that we are matter and energy reacting according to natural processes--no one can know anything--there is no will, no reason, no logic and certainly no choice to make one compassionate. Real science only confirms the science--evolutionary naturalism, however, is a system of flawed and circular reasoning.
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@fusedchromosome When Jesus Christ died on the cross, the temple veil was rent in twain. In other words, the curtain is open to all those who come unto God. You have not answered any questions; you have not substantiated your own contradictory beliefs. In short, do you have any reasonable arguments for your atheism? Or is it just an emotional reaction, a prejudicial conjecture you propagate to soothe your rebellious heart? I have been upfront; it's you doing the hiding.
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
JesusIsUrSaviour has figured out a way to escape the questions. he either quotes from verses or asks questions (answer that). but never answers himself.
nayanmalig 1 year ago
@nayanmalig That's not true. But the bigger problem is that your atheism remains an arbitrary worldview, devoid of any ability to provide for those things you appeal to--justice, mercy, compassion. For these things to exist, you must borrow biblical presuppositions, affirming the Bible in your quest to deny it, and thereby refuting yourself.
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
why didn't god part the atlantic ocean & take the african slaves from the USA back to africa? answer that.
nayanmalig 1 year ago
@nayanmalig Why don't you believe in the God you get so angry about? If he doesn't exist, why should we care about slavery? Answer that.
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour what anger? is it evil to ask for the release of slaves? "anger" is a common belly ache of christian fanatics when they are stuck for answers. it is the bible which orders to take revenge. that's anger. same book promotes slavery. so we know that u do not care about slavery. u support slavery with all your faith & heart. that's why u keep defending it.
nayanmalig 1 year ago
atheist countries like scandinavia are not only compassionate but they have the highest living standard in the world. no slavery like in the USA (mexican slave labour) or africa either,
nayanmalig 1 year ago
@nayanmalig "The wicked shall be turned into hell and all the nations that forget God". (Psalms 9:17).
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour according to statististics all the nations that have turned religious are turning into hell. afghanistan, iran, pakistan etc. soon the christian countries might follow them by leaving their secular beliefs behind. then u can start stoning criminals. best of luck.
nayanmalig 1 year ago
@nayanmalig How do you explain justice in a universe where there is no God?
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
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@JesusIsUrSaviour The same way you explain injustice in a universe where there is a God.
nayanmalig 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour why do i have to explain justice? justice will always be justice. just like an egg. egg will never become an apple. look up the dictionary. does the dictionary refer to god when describing "justice"? you obviously believe that there is life outside the earth. otherwise how do you claim "in the universe"? has god created life outside the earth & is there injustice in those worlds too?
nayanmalig 1 year ago
@nayanmalig In order to be rational, you must have reasons for your argument. You appeal to justice without a basis for justice existing in your God-less universe. For me, the fact that we demand justice makes sense because our Creator is a God of truth who promises to ultimately make all wrongs right and judge the world in righteousness. On the other hand, why should we be just if there is no God? Throwing up your hands as you do in your post only shows that your atheism is arbitrary.
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour my answers are simple. i don't need any reasons as long as they make sense. you may demand justice, but i don't see any results. that makes no sense to me. problem with you is that you think everything has to have a reason. not only that you think you know the reasons as well as all the answers.
nayanmalig 1 year ago
@nayanmalig You have not provided any answers, just contradictions. I don't need reasons as long as they make sense? Having a reason or an argument for your claim is the bedrock of being rational. As it stands, your angst towards God has been shown to be an irrational, emotional bias. Do you have any reasons for not believing or will you continue to rest your soul on the empty premise of your unbelief? Your excuses won't stand on the day of judgement.
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour. I believe in what is right. if a person wants to be just cos a book threatens him with eternal hell he's a sneaky, deluded coward. it's like not murdering somebody because the police is around. only criminals think like that. ur angst to other religions & their gods will not stand the day of their judgements. do you have reasons for not believing in them & what are they?
nayanmalig 1 year ago
@nayanmalig Saying you believe in what is right because it is right (which is what you've said) is the very same circular reasoning Christians are accused of. How do you decide what is "right"?
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
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@JesusIsUrSaviour would you murder people if the police was absent? do people who have never read the bible go on rampages? how do they decide what is "right"?
nayanmalig 1 year ago
Owning another human being is simply immoral. It doesn't matter how a slave is treated, IT IS FREAKING WRONG! You sir, are an idiot!
knineu02 1 year ago
@knineu02 What makes it wrong if there is no God? I contend that the God of the Bible, "the Father of mercies" (2 Cor 1), provides a rational basis for mercy and compassion. But if we are all just mindless chemicals in the struggle for life, how do you explain empathy? Compassion? Justice? Truth? If we're all just the result of biological determinism, do we even have a way to choose to be compassionate?
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@knineu02 I tell you what, You come here and be my slave, I'll treat you nicely, but I get to OWN you. Is that what you would like? It is better for humanity to treat others as you would like to be treated. I would not like to be a slave. I would also not impose that on anyone else either. Morals do not come from your invisible sky faerie. If you cannot see why slavery is wrong without your god, by all means KEEP ON BELIEVING! We wouldn't want you to enslave others!
Pathetic!
knineu02 1 year ago
@knineu02 Have you read the passages where people were selling themselves into service in order to pay off their debts? Your comments are prejudicial conjectures, incomplete or misinformed statements based mainly on your innate bias towards the bible. This is evidenced by your "invisible sky faerie" comment. I agree people should not be treated as animals like you suggest. I have a reason why--what is your basis for the Goldren Rule apart from God?
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour
"what is your basis for the Goldren Rule apart from God? "
I know the difference between right and wrong. I don't need bronze age myths telling to act properly. Apparently, you do.
knineu02 1 year ago
5. Even without 'rigor', though, the bible does condone holding a person against their will, and forcing them into servitude, as shown when the bible explains what type of people you can own in Leviticus 25:44-46.
6. The bible may claim that your good is merciful, but damning someone to eternal torture for ideology isn't merciful in the least.
7. Yes, regulating sinful behavior is condoning sinful behavior. He allows it to go on, when he could prohibit it completely, so he is condoning it.
Acorafication 1 year ago
1. Slavery isn't the only problem with God's supposed morality.
2. The Exodus verse isn't the only verse that speaks of how to treat your slaves, but it is the most prominent.
3. There is just as much evidence for the Egyptians' gods as there is for yours. That is to say, none.
4. The bible contradicts itself in many places. That these two passages contradict each other doesn't help your argument.
Acorafication 1 year ago
8. Your law analogy is flawed. The bible is saying 'If he dies instantly, you're screwed, if he lives for a little while, it's completely fine that you beat him', while the law says 'If you drive drunk, you will go to jail'. No wiggle room there, unlike with the bible.
9. The slavery in the bible is making someone your property because they are poor (Exodus 22:3, Lev 25:39) and forcing them into labor against their will. That is slavery by definition.
Acorafication 1 year ago
10. No, God revealed himself to Moses as a god who would take his favorite children out of bondage, but it states (Lev 25:44-46) that the Israelites were allowed to buy slaves from other nations.
11. Now that I take a closer look at your claim that God doesn't want us to 'rule over each other with rigor', he is only speaking of the Israelites. It doesn't prohibit the beating of any other slaves, therefore, he's condoning it.
Acorafication 1 year ago
12. The 'no compassion and mercy without god' argument is entirely flawed, and has been refuted millions of times. Morality has evolved through Darwinian evolution because it allows us to work better as a group, ensuring a higher rate of survival for our species as a whole. Therefore, it's best to be compassionate and merciful because we fit into society better, and our species survives better.
13. Your God is anything but kind and compassionate. He is a malignant bastard who doesn't exist.
Acorafication 1 year ago
14. Actually, the bible says that you should sacrifice a lamb if you rape one of your female servants who is engaged, and that she should be whipped. (Leviticus 19:20-22)
15. Sin has not yet been proven to exist, so I don't believe that I can be the servant of it. I am not controlled by any 'sinful' acts I commit.
Acorafication 1 year ago
God does condone slavery. Why else should he talk about how to do it in the first place if he does not allow us to do it?
You are saying that your perfect God does not want us to do it, but if we happen to do it he wants us to do it the right way.... I don't even know what to say to that.
EPR89 1 year ago 3
So, why didn't God outright ban slavery? Also, If God is against slavery, way does Exodus 21:2 instruct how long you can keep a Hebrew you purchased? Verse 4 Tells that woman can't go free.
Symos 1 year ago
Leviticus 44-46
Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Nihilist127 1 year ago
@Nihilist127 It seems that if you read a bit further you would realize that the rule about not being cruel to slaves only applies to other israelites.
Nihilist127 1 year ago
@Nihilist127 Well, I do not agree or accept that God promotes the cruel slavery you suggest. But I wonder, why would being cruel to a nother person be wrong if there is no God?
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour How does the existence of "God" make something moral or immoral. My understanding is that no matter what act "God" takes it is morally good. So if god ordered everyone to rape children it would be immoral not to. At this point objective morality does not exist and morality is subjective to God. So if god says you can be cruel to non Jewish slaves you can be as cruel as you want to other human beings and have it be morally acceptable.
Nihilist127 1 year ago
@Nihilist127 Please answer the question: Why is the slavery you suggest wrong if there is no God?
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour You're asking a nihilist whether something can be objectively right or wrong. Think about that for a moment. How does there being a god make slavery either morally acceptable or morally wrong? Because by definition anything god says to do is morally good you don't have any ground to stand on because you can't even conceive of an order from god that is evil.
Nihilist127 1 year ago
@Nihilist127 No, I am saying this: You object to God because you claim that the Bible sanctions slavery. My question is, If there is no God, why do you have a problem with slavery? On what basis do you object? If you must borrow a biblical concept like compassion and empathy to disprove God, you only refute yourself.
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour Compassion and empathy are NOT biblical concepts. If compassion and empathy were only biblical concepts then there would be no human society where the bible was not.
There are quite a few problems with slavery. Ignoring the suffering societies that use slavery tend to be less productive than those that don't. Slaves take more work to manage than paid workers. Ultimately you can make a machine that can do the work of many slave at less cost. Slavery is inefficient.
Nihilist127 1 year ago
@Nihilist127 I don't believe in morality. However I don't spread suffering when cooperation, empathy, and compassion will bring greater rewards. Now how can you object to slavery when your god explicitly supports it? Because if god makes it morally acceptable to sell your daughter into sexual slavery Exodus 21:7-8. Then you cannot make a moral objection to it if you believe that everything god commands is morally right.
Nihilist127 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour bible encourages slavery even instructing how to beat them. "if there is no god" has no relevance. we are speaking about the bible. it exists & you believe it. that's it.
nayanmalig 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour if u do not accept that bible promoites slavery, ur stubborn & u don't believe the bible. u believe ur own dreams. as simple as that.
nayanmalig 1 year ago
for lack of a better word all I can say is the maker of this video is a DOUCHEBAG!!!!!
ElvisKnucklehead 1 year ago
@ElvisKnucklehead Thank you for the enlightening and insightful commentary.
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour My pleasure sir. I truly mean it. My pleasure:)
ElvisKnucklehead 1 year ago
@ElvisKnucklehead It would be more of a pleasure to see you actually say something than a silly and immature "drive by" like that. I realize you have this anger and hatred of God, but I think you should take it up with him. If you think the proverbial fist shaking you exercises by calling someone a name does anything to affect God, you are and will find out you are sorely mistaken.
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago
@JesusIsUrSaviour I honestly have as much "anger and hatred of god" as I do for the loch ness monster, odin, bigfoot, the easter bunny or any other mythical "being". I'm just not one to fear a fictional character.
ElvisKnucklehead 1 year ago
@ElvisKnucklehead You just keep telling yourself that.
JesusIsUrSaviour 1 year ago