Merit Pay, Teacher Pay, and Value Added Measures

[mquantz13]

I'm a teacher and a graduate student in teacher education. The research says merit pay does not produce better student learning outcomes, but pits teachers against each other, when collaborative teaching DOES improve outcomes, and encourages teachers to teach to a standardized test rather than helping the students become life-long learners.

[jessrockker]

thats why TEACHERS would co-create the system. All of these cons can be applied to anything. OF COURSE there will be variables. You really wasted your energy.

[MsJanetWood]

A+

Great job!

Funny and informative at the same time!

[JohnLeeMD]

It's silly that this is made so hard a system. It really isn't that hard to see who does a good job, and who doesn't. In a lot of ways, a school staff can be looked at as a company. In the company, they should have something of a Board of Directors. That board of directors should be able to quickly see who's good, who's worthy, and who maybe not so. It's NOT that hard. Those who are good, pay them. Those who aren't, you don't pay them. Simple.

[gm7add11]

When state officials stop meddling and trying to micro-manage public education, of which they understand very little, teachers can get back to the business of teaching. Teachers have been screaming for years that mandated assessments DO NOT accord with prescribed curricula, and NO ONE listens.

[rh001YT]

No test scheme for teachers will work, except to weed out the worst, and so a test just for that makes sense. As the child is individualistic in capabilities he/she can't be expected to achieve at the same rate nor to the same benchmark. Via testing, the students can be segregated according to ability and then taught at different speeds. those slotted to lower speeds should be provided with study guides & strategies to increase speed & allowed to join higher speed groups when speed is attained.

[rh001YT]

I say no to merit pay for teachers, but of course yes in business. although school is required to prepare citizens for biz, the child is not ready for biz - it's too harsh - so the model for one is not applicable to the other. And we hope that education is a time of incubation for emergence of better ideas, whereas in biz the focus is making the same but with greater efficiencies. The solution for the West is education vouchers, while in Asia the current system works well enough.

[Mitchapalooza23]

Teachers who are caught sleeping in class don't even get fired, this is fair for their students?

I'm sorry but teachers need to be held accountable for results just like every other profession on the planet.

[dwees2]

@Mitchapalooza23 I don't think the video is saying that teachers shouldn't be accountability, just that merit pay won't work. You did watch the video right?

[jdimichele]

@Mitchapalooza23 - Lets not get silly. I have never heard of a teacher sleeping in class in all my years of teaching.

[MrNeaguy]

Merit pay: bad in theory, even worse in practice.

Teachers are already giving everything they've got.

This will only make things worse.

[GordonWayneWatts]

Your open-mindeness to merit pay is admirable for an opponent of the plans you oppose, but you miss one key point: Even if there are errors in the system, the 'plus' errors and the 'minus' errors tend to cancel out when you average the entire set of students each teacher would have over his or her tenure. Understand what I mean? The 'kids move away' problems, for example, occurs for ALL teacher from time-to-time, thus leveling the playing field. Take a statistics class to learn more/ :-) :-)

[cornbreadjunkie]

@GordonWayneWatts This problem happens far more often in poor areas where home ownership is not the norm. In an area that is primarily apartments, for instance, the student population is constantly in flux. You may have kids who attend three different schools in a year.

My first school had a transient population, the 5th or 6th grade, most of the kids who had started in kindergarten were no longer attending the school. It's a disincentive for good teachers to teach difficult populations.

[GordonWayneWatts]

@cornbreadjunkie - That makes sense, but remember: McDonald's and Wal-Mart make money in ALL these markets -and you know why? They don't get gov't help and KNOW that they must turn out a quality product. So, how does this relate to 'difficult populations?' Well, many businesses pay more for employees who work in 'difficult' situations -be it night shift or high crime area. So, if private businesses can do without subsidies -AND IT WORKS!!, maybe schools should follow suit, hello?

[MarShae04]

@GordonWayneWatts Actually, the error rate is 26%, meaning that 26% of all teachers considered effective are not and 26% of all teachers considered ineffective actually are. The actual measurement is unfair. There is no statistical way to account for variables outside of a teacher's control.

[GordonWayneWatts]

@MarShae04 - It is sad that there is error in the calculation, but some merit is probably better than nothing -and, in fact, such human error probably exists in all fields and professions. -- We are human, and we can only do the best we can do, but correct for all the errors possible we must do. Either do or do not - there is no 'try.' YODA. -Star Wars

[jdimichele]

@GordonWayneWatts How would you evaluate myself as the only engineering teacher and no standardized test scores? Just a thought. Not all teachers have standardized test scores and not all principals are experts at every field of study. Do you think that two 30 minute observations by a principal can determine a teachers merit pay in all subject areas?

[GordonWayneWatts]

@jdimichele You may be the only engineering teacher in YOUR hi school or college but you're NOT the only engineering teacher in the world! Therefore 2B fair U must B compared against yr peers. Now regarding two 30-minute observations by a principle alone: No,of course that's not sufficient 2B fair but several observations by SEVERAL observers & SEVERAL standardized tests AND student evaluations WITH corrections for your district's poverty level (which affects student performance) IS fair! Right?

[ThexKoandaxBears]

You forgot to include the socio-economic differences kids experience that impact test scores. Some students have parents who set a regular homework time and work with them. Other students have parents who are at work all evening and can't help. Still others have parents who don't set a premium on education. All these factor in to the students testing results. Students who refuse to read the test and just click on answers must be factored into the equation also.

[dbw8m]

@ThexKoandaxBears A successful value added model would account for this. . . you can not only account for change scores over the year, you can account for the typical change score for a particular child. . .so the child with parents who are not supportive will typically have had low change scores by the time they get to fifth grade, for example. But this does assume that change scores will be stable in the child, and if they differ in a particular year, it's because of the teacher

[coupons4brooke]

couldn't u use ur knowledge & resources to come up with a version that would work ~ that would reward our teachers & raise student outcomes, take this idea on the table & make it better. Merit Pay isn't talked about as a significant problem, it is talked about as a solution. A solution, that is able to provide our great teachers with more resources, use data & be transparent, while raising student outcomes & closing achievement gaps. I know, high expectations but I believe you can do it!

[coupons4brooke]

So what I don't understand is why spend so much time and energy talking about what WON"T work and WHY you don't like it in this video? I love how a lot of the comments here begin to talk about Merit pay that will work ~ It seems everyone is on the same page that we need a a way to Reward and encourage teachers who are good at their jobs and help the teachers that are not so great either become great or move on to another profession. 

[dbw8m]

@coupons4brooke I talk about it because this is the idea that is on the table and it has a surface plausibility. I'm not against merit pay, but I don't think a lack of merit pay is one of the more significant problems in education right now, so I don't think it will change things all that much.

[ssny1234]

I'm a special ed. teacher - my chances of getting merit pay is pretty low and extremely unfair to me since I work just as hard and even harder than some regular ed. teachers I know.

[TheDonnaEl]

Nothing should be ADDED to public school teacher pay, only subtracted. They are all overpaid, over-benefited and incompetent.

[TMaroo]

Welcome to the real world. All of us in our jobs are evaluated and paid based on merits in some way. Its not always perfectly fair. How unfair is it for a student that gets a poor teacher? At least if there is merit pay, over the long haul, variables typically even out and the true talent of the teacher is revealed. When merit pay is used, its an incentive to perform better. If I was a good teacher, I'd want to show it versus being lumped in the same bucket with every under-performing teacher.

[dbw8m]

@TMaroo

There's more at stake her than just whether or not teachers like it. If you put unfair merit pay into the system it' going to anger teachers. . .and you're more likely to lose good teachers (who have other options) than poor teachers (who don't).

[GordonWayneWatts]

@dbw8m - I could not have said it better then TMaroo, so I won't .. OK, I will... If everywhere ELSE in the real world you have merit-based pay incintives, why do teachers think they're special? Makes you WONDEr about their motives here. "Things that make you go 'Hmm...'." --His/Her 'Over the long haul' comment referred to the statistical law of averages -as I've said B4, study statistics to get a grip on this concept. Thank you 4 not being 'against' merit pay -so, how would YOU do merit pay??

[bohicatim]

@TMaroo Welcome to the real world? As a senior manager for the past 12 years, I've witnessed the manipulation of our companies well-intended "merit" system to the point where it is turned into a detriment. THEORETICALLY, most good teachers would relish the opportunity to be measured and compared. However, in the "Real World" the system massaged and altered to compensate favorites and punish those who criticize the manipulation of the system.

[MarShae04]

@TMaroo As a good teacher, I was given a difficult class one year and the lady across the hall with poor classroom management was given an well-behaved class full of children on grade level. Her test scores were MUCH better than mine, but I worked MUCH harder at keeping my class in order and actually getting them to read by the end of the year. How do the test scores show that I am a good teacher? It looks like I'm an awful teacher.

[aussiedawgz1]

@TMaroo isn't that what we pay administrators the big bucks for? they are the ppl that observe us, review our goals, mentor us, and at least in my school, meet with us at least 3 x per year.  Why do we need another layer? Are administrators doing the job they get paid for? Maybe they are the prob. there was language in contracts to remove ineffective teachers, but u need an effective admin to pursue that end. I have seen it happen in several schools. i am sick of teacher bashing.

[lovemystudents]

As a teacher, I'm perfectly fine with merit pay, as long as it's based on what I can control: my own teaching practice. I can't force my students to learn any more than I can force my one-year-old to nap. I can do lots of things to create an environment in which napping - or learning - is likely to happen, but I can't create the napping/learning itself. ...

[lovemystudents]

... Why not evaluate and pay me based on the best practices I use - the things I do to create a learning-likely environment? My use of mandates, chunking material, using non-linguistic representations, teaching note-taking and summarizing, etc., would all be great things on which to base my evaluation and pay, and they're things that I and only I control.

[TeacherSabrinaFSP]

@lovemystudents Amen! I add, too, that I'm not the only one teaching my students--they're learning from the media, from their parents, from other teachers, from each other, etc. Should I get credit or blame for that?

[artlader]

Thank you for explaining this so well.

[artlader]

Nice job.

Thank you.

[JanUTube]

well done!

[justfactsplease1]

I believe there is a plan to average gains over three years. Also, only apple to apple comparisons will be made. Gifted teachers will not be compared to ese teachers. I am sure the first plan won't be perfect, but we need to get moving on something!!!!

[burton6195]

A house divided CANNOT stand! The students will be the victims of this debacle!!!

[myschoolbinder]

The teacher evaluations should be based on the effort made to move the students and not on the final outcome.

[jdthomas53]

Although I appreciate the thought that went into this presentation, I am disappointed that in the end it came down to "it's not fair." I thought we all learned in elementary school that life isn't fair! Why is education one of the few professions that doesn't seem to be able to evaluate their employees? I have never understood any of the arguments against merit pay. T Are teachers really against getting paid more if they do a good job? I just don't get it, and yes, I am a teacher!

[dbw8m]

Fairness is important because an unfair system has a terrible impact on morale of existing teachers, and it will encourage teachers with options (who are probably the good ones) to leave the field. The teachers without options (the duds) will stay.

[jdthomas53]

I agree that fairness is important! But is it fair that all teachers get the same raise every year regardless of ability. That's why the good ones do leave. So, my point is, it's always going to be "unfair."  So, why not have it be unfair where the good teachers get paid more than the duds!

[dbw8m]

The choice should not be "merit pay as currently conceived" vs. status quo. I'd like to work harder to get a system that will exit poor teachers and reward good teachers *as teachers themselves would like to be rewarded* rather than rush into something that I think will backfire.

[jdthomas53]

We must differentiate between the project and its implementation. We should not scrap the project because we are afraid of its implementation. Only when we commit to the project can we effectively lobby for the proper implementation.

[swtogirl]

A further complication -- special needs and second language students. These students tend to gain slower and are usually not on grade level to begin with, but are now (at least in my state) tested on grade level, so their gains would naturally be less, despite an SE or ESL teacher's hard work. That makes these teaching positions even less desirable than they already are.

Another point -- what about classes that do not have state tests such as Art and Music? How do these teachers benefit?

[dbw8m]

agreed,

[abodeequity]

All I can say is, you teachers that are better than your fellow teachers at your school know who you are, sad thing is your peers are not doing you any favors by dragging you down to their level. You'd be the one making some big money, and don't say you don't do it for the money because if you don't need it, you can always start a college fund for the needy.

[FavaMich]

An additional problem (in the UK) is that institutional funding incentives based on value added can lead to institutional pressure for over-marking and fudging of grades, particularly in non exam based subjects. Institutions where no student ever fails, regardless of how little they do, are on the increase for this reason.

Rolling out this system to HE would be a disaster.

[trishaltw]

@FavaMich

Interesting. . .presumably not a problem in the US where it's assumed that tests would be standardized. . .but I have heard complaints that teachers would encourage students (subtly or overtly) to perform poorly in the fall, so that gain scores would be larger. . .I've got more faith in teachers than that, although I'm sure a *few* would do it.  . .

[elegantsolution]

The problem with merit pay is that it is NEVER used to pay good teachers more, but rather, to pay inexperienced teachers less.

Currently, students are socially promoted regardless of their performance, so it does little good to provide merit pay without any disincentive to a student who knows they will pass regardless of their performance.

Imagine a doctor's pay being based on the eating habits or behaviors of their patients.

[gloverclassroom]

This is well done and is a voice that belongs at the table. I am also happy to see that you do not dismiss merit pay out of hand. Consider 2 teachers in my school. Each has taught 18 years. Each has spent >7 yrs in their current position. 1 of them works, longer, harder, is better organized, does more pd and even mentors rookies like me. Her scores are always near the top of the dist. Yet, cause our contract maxes @ 15 yrs so their $ is =. Is that fair? No. We need to reward superior teachers.

[elegantsolution]

@gloverclassroom I understand your point, however, it seems "you" have decided what constitutes "hard work" based on a rather superficial preconceived notion. However, you may be confusing effectiveness with hard work. For example, I know a writing teacher who does almost everything for her students and they get good grades, however, they still don't know how to proofread or write so although she works hard, she is not helping her students.

[parriszombie]

Super job!

[LittleGuelzy]

Terrific job on the video -- the best articulation yet of the arguments against merit pay. I don't find them persuasive, but I admire your effort.

The first point -- missing data and fairness -- can be addressed through the increasing availability of extremely granular data, data that follows a student from one school to the next anywhere within a state.

Second -- merit pay works in every other profession. Teaching is not that different. It can be structured fairly.

[dbw8m]

I'm not necessarily against merit pay. I'm against using a measure that will not work the way people think it will.

[MrDage]

AWESOME! I teach kids with severe and profound disabilities, which means that I will always be excluded from any sort of merit-based system. It often takes YEARS for some of my kids to make a month's worth of developmental progress. My kids don't take such tests and they floor through most standardized measures.

Find a system that reaches my kids and I, and you have a winner.

[roryslife]

Why not base merit pay on an average of 5 years of performance? Wouldn't this mitigate the fairness issue?

[dbw8m]

I think it would mitigate the reliability issue--taking more data points almost always gives you a more reliable estimate. But it wouldn't address the other points, which are problems of *systematic* bias in scores, not randomness.

[dropoutndropin]

awesome.