2010 Free Market Capitalism Creates Overpopulation

[eboyd32]

...that a society transitioning from a capitalist economy to an equal money economy would not lead to hundreds of thousands of people dying of starvation? i propose, at least as a transitionary period, that money would be directly based on scarcity, so that once an item becomes abundant, it no longer has a price tag, and essentially, this equal money economy you speak of would eventually come about naturally if the idea is viable.

[MattiFreeman1]

@eboyd32

So far it looks like the Basic Income Grant will facilitate the necessary transitionary period to Equal Money - lifting people out of poverty and enabling everyone to participate in the existing economy - however, the profit/loss system will have to end, because it cannot provide for everyone because the production / administration of basic human support is deliberately limited in the name of exploitation / enslavement for profit.

[eboyd32]

@MattiFreeman1 after quickly reading a short excerpt on the Basic Income Grant it reads, to me at least, dangerously similar to what i would assume would occur during the transition period in Marxism in which there would be a "dictatorship of the proletariat" -- the exact same period that Mikhail Bakunin accurately predicted would transform into a tyranny far worse than any capitalist regime. and the economic theories do not even seem sound...

[MattiFreeman1]

@eboyd32

the current system is a danger to life as a billion starve right now and every day people kill, sell and abuse each other for money

[eboyd32]

@MattiFreeman1 i agree, and we're in agreement as to what most of the problems plaguing the current system are, however, i disagree that the Basic Income Grant would be sufficient for transitioning to an equal money or similar system and, in fact, it sounds to me as though the Basic Income Grant fits in well with the transitionary period in Marxist theory which, it could be argued, allowed the horrific regimes we saw in the USSR, Indochina, Cuba, and other "Communist" countries.

[MattiFreeman1]

@eboyd32

research equal money and desteni thoroughly to understand how equal money is not marxism

[eboyd32]

@MattiFreeman1 i did. of course i didn't have time to read the whole thing, but i read the article that was specifically supposed to describe the difference between equal money and Marxism. the differences seemed to me as pretty much the same differences Kropotkin and other anarcho-communists described (except of course the ones who prefer bloody revolution), however, you then showed me BIG, which i said resembled what i would expect to be an aspect of a Marxist transition period.

[MattiFreeman1]

@eboyd32

read all material

[eboyd32]

...the premise of my comments was as a solution to the problem of overpopulation as proposed in this video. the Basic Income Grant, as far as what i've read about it, does nothing to balance resources and population levels.

[MattiFreeman1]

@eboyd32

balance is only possible with equality - how do you ensure balance in a family? each family member gets equal support

[eboyd32]

...principles; you are arguing for us to simply revert to an economy based on equal remuneration according to need. isn't it the case, however, that, if what you say about overpopulation is true, if we immediately reverted to an equal money system we would run into an issue of scarcity? in other words, since we have overpopulated the earth, we would not currently have enough resources for everyone to survive, and so some sort of transitionary economic status would be necessary to ensure...

[eboyd32]

what you are essentially arguing is a problem of scarcity. you are saying that in the past, the world provided enough resources for everyone to survive and now that capitalism has spread across the world, our population has exploded and we cannot provide enough resources to please everyone. i am not going to argue the accuracy of this statement, as i do not have enough information to say whether it is true or not. however, your solution is to revert to what are basically anarchist communist...

[MattiFreeman1]

@eboyd32

no - anarchy is not a solution. In investigating myself as a personality - tracing my thoughts, feelings, emotions, desires,fears, etc back to their origins it is all behavior taught / conditioned by survival / winning within the capitalist / consumer system of inequality -- thus, we require a system that removes fear of survival and provides for all basic needs so that the human can learn to live in common sense instead of fear and competition for survival

[eboyd32]

@MattiFreeman1 everything you describe here coincides with the basic vision of the anarchist communists. you may want to read some Kropotkin, Bookchin, etc., because they have some pretty intricate details written regarding how an anarchist communist society would function, not to mention the experience of the Spanish Revolution of 1936.

so what is there that differentiates what you believe in from the anarchist communists?

[MattiFreeman1]

@eboyd32

equal money is not anarchy - it is a system based on what is best for all. Where participation is based on giving everyone what everyone would like for themselves - love thy neighbor - so you have no competition for survival / life.

Capitalism/Communism is based on ideals - not on common sense consideration of Life

[eboyd32]

@MattiFreeman1 you've obviously done very little research on anarchism and haven't the slightest understanding of what it is. you need to read "The Conquest of Bread" by Pyotr Kropotkin and similar books, or go to libcom (dot) org and read some of their articles, because you will find that what you are talking about is EXACTLY in line with their ideas, you're just blinded by the stigma of the term "anarchy".

[MattiFreeman1]

@eboyd32

read the equal money FAQ books and destonian blog books

[eboyd32]

@MattiFreeman1 do you have any specific reading out of those that would change my mind? i don't have time to read all the books you are telling me to read.

[mphello]

Mandate vasectomies for all men!

[MattiFreeman1]

@mphello

lol

for now, all people with money - which in fact is the elite of the world, should have vasectomies because there is the money to do so and families are mostly just a point of self interest- and we have the responsibility to implement a real solution to this world because we have money and influence and a voice -- the poor cannot end poverty - those of us with money can end it through voting in a new system that supports all life and creates effective humans

[mphello]

Thumbed this video up even before watching it, just because you're not a pro-free-market flag-waving capitalism-will-cure-everythin­g fanatic cult member, based on this video's title. (Who know? There may be minor points of disagreement. Worry about that later.)

Free market extremism is based on the unrealistic idealistic delusion of an infinite world with infinite resources practically available to everyone at all times.

[MattiFreeman1]

@mphello

yes, all current ideals and theories are not practical and not sustainable -- because they are not based on the practical equations of what is best for all in this reality / world in fact. They are not based on the logistics of supporting life - they are based on the logistics of self interest as making profit

research Equal Money FAQ on youtube

[MattiFreeman1]

@DarklingX

stopping poverty is the destruction of freedom?

stopping all crime motivated by money is the destruction of freedom?

how can freedom exist when a child is born into starvation?

how can freedom exist when someone has to clean the toilet of the wealthy in the luxury hotel because the wealthy do not want to clean their own shit because they have more money than the rest?

how can freedom exist when your abilities are defined by struggling to survive and merely exist in this world?

[MattiFreeman1]

@DarklingX

you are delusional and talk as ego based on an idea of poverty -- place yourself in the shoes of a child living in a garbage dump who eats garbage - the garbage of people like you with money -- now, how do you as this child see and perceive YOU as this person on youtube making the comment you made?

people like you are all talk -- stop using money completely - if poverty is such a great accomplishment of humanity you won't mind being poor then will you? or are you too greedy?

[ProIndividual]

It creates overpopulation? That's funny, because classical liberals often believed population would be controlled through starvation, and therefore advocated no welfare system to stop natural scarcity. Also, there are limited resources ALWAYS and unlimited demand...this is the reason for economics as a field of study, Left and Right. The "money system" is a problem...because there is a coerced State monopoly on it. Notice the least scarcity occurs in capitalist environments, not socialist.

[MattiFreeman1]

@ProIndividual

scarcity is man-made entirely

there exist the technology and means to support everyone

investigate 'reason's for scarcity and you'll find all such reasons come from the 'logic' of the current system and are not based on common sense, practical considerations of what is best for all

[ProIndividual]

@MattiFreeman1 Scarcity is a matter of perspective. It will always exist. The study of economics is the attempt to meet unlimited demand with limited supply. Humans tend toward complaint and want, so never will there be a "rich enough" or "comfortable enough" or "convenient enough". This drives the economy, and isn't necessarily bad either. Scarcity, in relative terms, exist because of human nature (our want for more no matter how much we have). In non-relative terms (like food scarcity)....

[MattiFreeman1]

@ProIndividual

yes, from the perspective of accepting the polarity of the current money system of have and have not - scarcity will always exist

yet - you can also do what is best for all and give to all equally so that all are provided for - we create the rules we live be

[ProIndividual]

@MattiFreeman1 Money exists as a medium of exchange. In ancient Islam it was rice, gold, and silver. In Native american cultures it was maze, gold, and sea shells. In Rom and Greece it was gold, silver, etc. In Ancient China it was gold, silver, silk, etc. It isn't created through force, and society only exists because of trade (before trade there was only primitive barbarism). Scarcity is a constant no matter what, and food scarcity for example DECREASES as free markets expand.

[MattiFreeman1]

@ProIndividual

yes you have read history and have knowledge and information -- but have you considered what is best for all life? we've decided to exist in inequality and in this have created massive suffering with 17 million children starving to death each year - do you support the ongoing holocaust perpetrated currently by all those who accept the current value system and foundational knowledge and definitions of the system?

[IndigoVagrant]

Capitalism has not facilitated 7 billion people living on this planet, Oil has. Without Oil, we could not sustain our current populations.

Since the 1980s, we have been consuming more of the organic material on this planet than it can reproduce per year. Do you understand what that means? By the end of the century, there will be a massive population contraction, even without climate change. Increasing resource scarcity combined with resource and waste mismanagement will undo us all

[MattiFreeman1]

@IndigoVagrant

research Equal Money FAQ and read the first volume of the Equal Money books - linked in video description

[ProIndividual]

@MattiFreeman1 Equality by force is not fair, and what is fair is not equal. Equality of distribution of goods leads directly to economic failure...every single time.

[MattiFreeman1]

@ProIndividual

an Equal system is not fair to those who would like to have more than others at the expense of others and who only care about their self interest

an Equal system is what is best for ALL - and in that, that is actually what is best for each - because then survival is never something that will be lost - life is given Equal to All

there has never been an Equal system in this world - hence poverty existing in all communist countries which are just capitalism in fact anyway

[ProIndividual]

@MattiFreeman1 ...like food scarcity, it happens most often when attempts at price controls are made. Whenever market pricing is fought, scarcity occurs. Market pricing CAUSE less scarcity. There are plenty of resources to feed everyone, true...for how long though? Once you feed everyone and eliminate profit motive, how long do you think this abundance created by profit motive will last? Not long. I used to be a socialist/liberal democracy fan too, then I realized Chomsky is a linguist....

[MattiFreeman1]

@ProIndividual

what you are accepting is that the human is not capable of living here on the earth - and that it is in fact money that is living, not the human

[ProIndividual]

@MattiFreeman1 No, what I'm accepting is economic fact. Technology leads to higher productivity, which leads to higher total compensation per person to beat inflation, which leads to higher standards of living, which leads to lower poverty and hunder rates (as long we don't move the goal posts in relativism), which leads to higher consumption, which leads to more profits and accumulated capital, whic leads to more investment in technology, which leads to higher productivity, rinse wash repeat.

[MattiFreeman1]

@ProIndividual

happiness and fulfillment through removing the struggle for survival through an Equal Money system leads to higher productivity and enthusiasm for living and participating on earth with your fellow human beings / animals / nature -- yes, brainwash and repeat - that is the cycle currently accepted by humans - educated to accept the current system - teach the children to accept the current system. who benefits? those with all the money - who suffers? the majority

[ProIndividual]

@MattiFreeman1 ...realized Chomsky is a linguist, not an economist. Once I read a ton of economic works, like Das Kapital, the Communist Manifesto, Small is Beautiful (Keynesian), etc...and then free market workd like Road to Surfdom, Wealth of Nations, some of Ricardo's works, Bastiat's ideas, lectures by Don Boudreaux (I hope I spelled that right), etc, I came to my own conclusions. That conclusion was that leftist economics makes no sense empirically. Now I want you answer (for yourself)...

[ProIndividual]

@MattiFreeman1 ...now I want you to answer (for yourself) two questions: What causes standards of living to rise? (hint, it's cyclical process). Also, what causes technology to be produced at such a modern accelerated rate? You cannot answer these two questions correctly and still cling to your current economic fallacies. You could also read my blogs on Campaign for Liberty (I have these debates a lot, so I wrote blogs to reference instead of repeating the same things time and again)...

[MattiFreeman1]

@ProIndividual

all cycles and forces related to money in this world directly are created by human beings -- remove human beings and all economic cycles cease to exist

[ProIndividual]

@MattiFreeman1 Remove all human beings and all everything ceases to exist...lol. Reality is an objective thing viewed subjectively...if we aren't there to view it subjectively, the objective reality is irrelevant. "If a tree falls in a forrest, and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?" It may, or may not, but even assuming it does, it ceases to matter.

[MattiFreeman1]

@ProIndividual

the question is whether human beings will decide that life matters or keep accepting a world where life is ignored in favor of mind experiences occupying one until death to leave behind hell on earth for the next generation

[ProIndividual]

@MattiFreeman1 And you mention common sense...but economic is not "common sense" friendly. It's counter intutive, but deductively logical.

[MattiFreeman1]

@ProIndividual

we've created the world based on our accepted definitions of words -- when living the words in our daily lives we are accumulating / creating / passing on / supporting whatever is implied and given permission for in our accepted definitions

our definitions all support the current system - thus, we have to redefine our words in common sense and self honesty - taking responsibility to consider what is best for all - to accumulate a new world that is best for all in common sense

[ProIndividual]

@MattiFreeman1 I appreciate your time Matti...but you're giving me semantics to explain away economic realities. If capital is not accumulated by either a coercive State or a voluntary charity, or a voluntary property owner, then technology ceases to advance, and so does the rising standards of living, therefore increasing poverty, hunger, strife, and suffering. To have a world as free of suffering and poverty and hunder as possible there must exist inequality of wealth.

[MattiFreeman1]

@ProIndividual

there exist inequality of wealth and in this there exist poverty - to accept wealth and non-wealth - have and have not - you directly ALLOW poverty / greed / struggle - and give permission for those with the capital to keep capitalizing on the needs of others to make themselves a profit -- as long as you give permission for someone to profit off another - you give permission for abuse.

the economic realities are equal to our acceptances and allowances - we are the creators

[iansuderman]

For the most part I agree with what you are saying about the venus project. It is mostly a scifi dream. Some parts could work better in concept. A supply based economy does work but would compromise the free market and some basic human rights. A person has to bid for the privilege to produce products in a supply based economy. Their cities would be built for a maximum size. It seems to have only one benefit: a person could survive a world wide over population collapse.

[MattiFreeman1]

@iansuderman

what is questionable about the venus project is that there is actually no clear principle presented that can be definitively seen to be Best for All.

[TheRocksTV]

The system provided you with your chair, shirt, glasses, desk, closet, computer, and webcam. You had a need for these items and voluntarily paid for them. The "system" had a supply of these items and exchanged them with you for money. The result? A mutually beneficial transaction; everyone wins!

[MattiFreeman1]

@TheRocksTV

you win if you are born into a circumstance where you are able to get money

if you are not able to get money - you are left to starve, exist in poverty, crime, prostitution, slave labor, struggle - many millions of people live in garbage dumps around the world and scavenge for garbage to 'make a living' - thousands die each day from starvation

you exist in a bubble bought with money and are not considering what is actually here -- give up all your money and see

[MattiFreeman1]

@TheRocksTV

if everyone wins - why are millions murdered by starvation each year?

[MattiFreeman1]

@TheRocksTV

the current system is not equal - it is not based on ensuring that everyone's basic human rights to survival and dignified living conditions are honored

you live in a system of winning and losing. no money = you lose

again, give up all your money and go to a 'less fortunate' country -- burn all your identification and then see how easy it is to 'win'

[TheRocksTV]

@MattiFreeman1 There are many countries with socialist and communist governments; if you don't like capitalism, you can always move.

[MattiFreeman1]

@TheRocksTV

I'm interested in a solution that is best for all

communism and socialism as they exist in this world are not about equality actually, because they are still only based in accepted division and the 'best interest of only that nation's particular populous' -- such countries still allow abuse and also have economic relationships with capitalist countries and are not interested in a system that is best for all

[MattiFreeman1]

@TheRocksTV

see - you are not actually considering anyone else but yourself

[TheRocksTV]

@MattiFreeman1 Lol.

[MattiFreeman1]

@TheRocksTV

yes, lol: lots-of-losers in this current economic system of inequality and neglect

hence, an equality system that that eliminates 'winning' and 'losing' by equalizing the playing field so that we are no longer competitors for survival and our participation does not have to be motivated by the desire to win based on fear of 'not having enough' / losing

[iansuderman]

Great video. I have spent way too much time looking at the venus project. Unfortunately the venus project is only really going to take off after the world collapse and starvation. If, I understood what they were hinting at, they too believe in an oil free world. Without this technology history and science suggests we cannot support a population over a billion - some are saying 1/2 a billion.

[MattiFreeman1]

@iansuderman

the venus project is simply a futurist fantasy that sees technology as a savior -- it is heavily based on imagery / pictures and presents no actual clear practical principle of how to re order the current world infrastructure in a way that is best for all

[GabrielZamoraMoreno]

Clear presentation, thanks

[RobertW1809]

*  "planet" is supposed to be "planted"

[RobertW1809]

jesus christ no kidding- can you believe there are actually orange trees here- planeted for decoration- that produce UNEATABLE ORANGES! ! ! I tried them. They taste like fucking acid. they just drop bitter orange-looking fruit all over the place! What a waste! ! ! Why are there even ANY trees planet and watered and pruned for "decoration" when they could just as easily have FREE FOOD TREES all over the place! ? ! JESUS!

[BellaBargilly]

would be cool to transcribe this Matti

[BellaBargilly]

clear simple common sense !

[JoeKouFullCircle]

clear and to the point. thanks matti

[buggfire]

proselytizing about 'equal-money' is like debating whether a house fire should be put out while the children burn inside. and everyone else is oblivious to the fire because they are all strung out on 'profit'. if we dont get it the culture degrades, the 'economy' 'falls', and we start having withdrawal like a recovering junkie. whats a few children so anyone who wants one can drive a 'fast-expensive-car'? this is what humanity has become. greed emotions are killing other people by thought alone.