@presentlightoftruth Easy to be so nasty online... But meanwhile I only sense callous and arrogance from you. And yet you say you are a man of Christ?
Excellent video. I strongly agree. I have been reading Wilber for 20 years and despite his brilliance have become aware of what feels like growing dogmatism - "packaging infinity". A helpful tool but a vehicle - not a destination. Reductive if it limits richness to fit the template - (i)ntegral - yes, (I)ntegral - no.
The surge of momentum in the evolution of consciousness transcends systems. The shadow implicit in all systems is fetishising them.
integral is the next natural step in evolution. even if it wasn't through this organization.. that's just the way things head
i like integral. couldn't see myself with any other philosphy (i'd probably be working on integrating these things myself)
i think they are getting better and better. more and more inclusive.
cons would be them not working faster! i should of been raised in an integral society. i think i assumed it was when i chose to reincarnate... oh well
btw, the integral practice includes a "spirit module" which goes beyond all 'concepts'... so the map does recognize itself as just that (the map is not the territory is a key point of integral....)
Agree with most of your points here... I think integral understanding will arise organically and in many different manifestations. If it works for you, great!
"A-perspectival" For instance is a great intellectual way to lead to spiritual/conscious insight. The map isn't the territory... But how do you think we might help people realize that more?
"In other words, all of my books are lies. They are simply maps of a territory, shadows of a reality, gray symbols dragging their bellies across the dead page, suffocated signs full of muffled sound and faded glory, signifying absolutely nothing. And it is the nothing, the Mystery, the Emptiness alone that needs to be realized: not known but felt, not thought but breathed, not an object but an atmosphere, not a lesson but a life." - kw
Was that from Integral Spirituality? I agree with him. And I like that he said it. I just feel that it's not kept in mind as much.... :-/ If the truth is beyond the maps, we can teach people to discover the insight within them.
btw, the integral practice includes a "spirit module" which goes beyond all 'concepts'... so the map does recognize itself as just that (the map is not the territory is a key point of integral....)
and may i also just add that i agree with soulfetcher that it does feel packaged at times (even litterally with ILP starter kit: "the simplist practice you can do to wake up")
and some of the contributers as well as the marketing does set off my BS detector
i wonder how a system could integrate its shadow more..
"In other words, all of my books are lies. They are simply maps of a territory, shadows of a reality, gray symbols dragging their bellies across the dead page, suffocated signs full of muffled sound and faded glory, signifying absolutely nothing. And it is the nothing, the Mystery, the Emptiness alone that needs to be realized: not known but felt, not thought but breathed, not an object but an atmosphere, not a lesson but a life. " - kw
I loved the conclusion of the article. I'm not sure what your point is with your comments about Ken and the greater integral movement. I think there seems to be this pull to devalue Ken's work in the name of the movement and not acknowledging what he can do that no one else can, what is unique about the distinctions he has to make that other people aren't making. He will die and things will continue but what is the point of intentionally doing it now? I am really not sure why.
Not tearing him down, just expressing his own insight is shared by other philosophies, philosophers and in many ways... It's a good thing, I think, in the long run. It may show that he was in a way "prophetic" about the big shift in consciousness...
yeah No one is tearing him down, I just think we should look closer at what makes him different instead of trying to say even out the bunch or intentionally get away from him as a poster boy unless there is good reason. It is just a question to the community of how are we going to relate to Ken that I want to consciously start asking now.
I think he's a microcosm of what's gonna be happening to civilization as a whole... Bringing all this knowledge together, recognizing depth and span as he says... For him to have done that is awesome. For example... I'm sure many disciplines will begin to work together more, see underlying agreements. Students may be more trans-disciplinary... Doing a lot of what he did! I guess my question is, how do we help civilization do this organically?
That's a really good question. I just see what he does as more difficult then that, His work actually seems quite subtle to me and comes alive when it gets down to specifics IOS is one application that maps it out down to detail but ultimately it is up to us to decipher how to do that best to try and cultivate the right systems understanding and unfolding. I'm getting a little nervous :)
That's a really good answer! :) I basically agree... Tho details sometimes hurt the wordless dimension too... It can be a great navigating and launch point... But one impression I've got from speaking with a lot of people is that they get hung up on what has been described from the maps, rather than living it themselves and doing what you described. Is this the quintessential "finger pointing to the moon" sort of deal?
Yeah that's true! Most of us aren't sure about how that looks yet culturally speaking or in our lives or how we present ourselves. I'm definitely living something though. ahem* and obsessing over maps. But ya know.. fake it till you make it :)
:P You know the whole story of life, including now, is novel expansion, new territories, new awareness... always pushing boundaries and daring to step into the unknown... As long as we can do this in the world, we can reflect on that and help others do the same.
@presentlightoftruth Easy to be so nasty online... But meanwhile I only sense callous and arrogance from you. And yet you say you are a man of Christ?
thepathlesspath 8 months ago
@presentlightoftruth Nice!
thepathlesspath 8 months ago
Excellent video. I strongly agree. I have been reading Wilber for 20 years and despite his brilliance have become aware of what feels like growing dogmatism - "packaging infinity". A helpful tool but a vehicle - not a destination. Reductive if it limits richness to fit the template - (i)ntegral - yes, (I)ntegral - no.
The surge of momentum in the evolution of consciousness transcends systems. The shadow implicit in all systems is fetishising them.
soulfetcher 2 years ago 4
Must give you props for that sir! Wonderfully put. Now if only many of us would heed those words and take them to heart :)
thepathlesspath 2 years ago
Excellently put! I agree wholemindedly with you on this, soulfetcher.
MaBu888 2 years ago
There was an audio included. Nice to hear from them again.
1PostPoMoMaN1 2 years ago
integral is the next natural step in evolution. even if it wasn't through this organization.. that's just the way things head
i like integral. couldn't see myself with any other philosphy (i'd probably be working on integrating these things myself)
i think they are getting better and better. more and more inclusive.
cons would be them not working faster! i should of been raised in an integral society. i think i assumed it was when i chose to reincarnate... oh well
dianeticstu 2 years ago
btw, the integral practice includes a "spirit module" which goes beyond all 'concepts'... so the map does recognize itself as just that (the map is not the territory is a key point of integral....)
dianeticstu 2 years ago
Agree with most of your points here... I think integral understanding will arise organically and in many different manifestations. If it works for you, great!
"A-perspectival" For instance is a great intellectual way to lead to spiritual/conscious insight. The map isn't the territory... But how do you think we might help people realize that more?
thepathlesspath 2 years ago
tattoo it to their foreheads
dianeticstu 2 years ago
"In other words, all of my books are lies. They are simply maps of a territory, shadows of a reality, gray symbols dragging their bellies across the dead page, suffocated signs full of muffled sound and faded glory, signifying absolutely nothing. And it is the nothing, the Mystery, the Emptiness alone that needs to be realized: not known but felt, not thought but breathed, not an object but an atmosphere, not a lesson but a life." - kw
dianeticstu 2 years ago
Was that from Integral Spirituality? I agree with him. And I like that he said it. I just feel that it's not kept in mind as much.... :-/ If the truth is beyond the maps, we can teach people to discover the insight within them.
thepathlesspath 2 years ago
Looks like it was in a forward to a book Frank Vissor wrote on him.
I feel ya, i don't think that point is pushed nearly enough by integral (need it as a tagline on the homepage or something)
dianeticstu 2 years ago
where'd my comments go? :/
dianeticstu 2 years ago
I'm not sure? Was this a youtube error?
thepathlesspath 2 years ago
(from b4)
integral is the next natural step in evolution. even if it wasn't through this organization.. that's just the way things head
i like integral. couldn't see myself with any other philosphy (i'd probably be working on integrating these things myself)
i think they are getting better and better. more and more inclusive.
cons would be them not working faster! i should of been raised in an integral society. i think i assumed it was when i chose to reincarnate... oh well
dianeticstu 2 years ago
btw, the integral practice includes a "spirit module" which goes beyond all 'concepts'... so the map does recognize itself as just that (the map is not the territory is a key point of integral....)
dianeticstu 2 years ago
and may i also just add that i agree with soulfetcher that it does feel packaged at times (even litterally with ILP starter kit: "the simplist practice you can do to wake up")
and some of the contributers as well as the marketing does set off my BS detector
i wonder how a system could integrate its shadow more..
dianeticstu 2 years ago
and the quote in reference
"In other words, all of my books are lies. They are simply maps of a territory, shadows of a reality, gray symbols dragging their bellies across the dead page, suffocated signs full of muffled sound and faded glory, signifying absolutely nothing. And it is the nothing, the Mystery, the Emptiness alone that needs to be realized: not known but felt, not thought but breathed, not an object but an atmosphere, not a lesson but a life. " - kw
dianeticstu 2 years ago
I loved the conclusion of the article. I'm not sure what your point is with your comments about Ken and the greater integral movement. I think there seems to be this pull to devalue Ken's work in the name of the movement and not acknowledging what he can do that no one else can, what is unique about the distinctions he has to make that other people aren't making. He will die and things will continue but what is the point of intentionally doing it now? I am really not sure why.
Lindsoiderf 2 years ago
Not tearing him down, just expressing his own insight is shared by other philosophies, philosophers and in many ways... It's a good thing, I think, in the long run. It may show that he was in a way "prophetic" about the big shift in consciousness...
thepathlesspath 2 years ago
yeah No one is tearing him down, I just think we should look closer at what makes him different instead of trying to say even out the bunch or intentionally get away from him as a poster boy unless there is good reason. It is just a question to the community of how are we going to relate to Ken that I want to consciously start asking now.
Lindsoiderf 2 years ago
I think he's a microcosm of what's gonna be happening to civilization as a whole... Bringing all this knowledge together, recognizing depth and span as he says... For him to have done that is awesome. For example... I'm sure many disciplines will begin to work together more, see underlying agreements. Students may be more trans-disciplinary... Doing a lot of what he did! I guess my question is, how do we help civilization do this organically?
thepathlesspath 2 years ago
That's a really good question. I just see what he does as more difficult then that, His work actually seems quite subtle to me and comes alive when it gets down to specifics IOS is one application that maps it out down to detail but ultimately it is up to us to decipher how to do that best to try and cultivate the right systems understanding and unfolding. I'm getting a little nervous :)
Lindsoiderf 2 years ago
That's a really good answer! :) I basically agree... Tho details sometimes hurt the wordless dimension too... It can be a great navigating and launch point... But one impression I've got from speaking with a lot of people is that they get hung up on what has been described from the maps, rather than living it themselves and doing what you described. Is this the quintessential "finger pointing to the moon" sort of deal?
thepathlesspath 2 years ago
Yeah that's true! Most of us aren't sure about how that looks yet culturally speaking or in our lives or how we present ourselves. I'm definitely living something though. ahem* and obsessing over maps. But ya know.. fake it till you make it :)
Lindsoiderf 2 years ago
:P You know the whole story of life, including now, is novel expansion, new territories, new awareness... always pushing boundaries and daring to step into the unknown... As long as we can do this in the world, we can reflect on that and help others do the same.
thepathlesspath 2 years ago
Yesss.
Lindsoiderf 2 years ago
good questions and challenging thoughts sir.
Mathfails 2 years ago
Who gave you a thumbs down? I gave you a thumbs up.
thepathlesspath 2 years ago