Pt 2 AT LAST!!!! Non-LDS Egyptologist AGREES with Joseph Smith!

[MrBigbear6718]

is this egyptologist a mormon? or paid by the mormon church? I think the Tanners are awesome. maybe you should ask why they left the church

[madmonk]

Lanny Bell is not agreeing with Joseph Smith. He's pointing out minor errors of other critics. Again, your arrogance on this issue is premature.

As soon as Dr. Bell says the papyrus is about Abraham, then you're on to something. Otherwise these videos are doing the church a huge disservice.

[EphraimLDS]

Keep the stone rolling!! For every 1 anti mormon who mocks your videos, 10 more people are enlightened by the truth displayed in your work! Make them howl!!!

[fudley2003]

If one properly understands the fruits of Egyptology, one understands that the JS trans. of the facsimiles in the BoA are unreliable. Are there false claims on both sides...yes. The irony of claiming truth is that one must also be open to the possibility that said claim is wrong (scholars and prophets). In my observation, scientific theory provides a better set of checks and balances than religion in this regard. It is troubling when Mythos and Logos mix. Mormonism was born from the cocktail.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

@fudley2003

I do understand the fruits of Egyptology, and also that Joseph Smith's translations are not unreliable.

[fudley2003]

@TheBackyardProfessor Just so I understand your statement, are you saying specifically that the JS translations of the facsimiles in the BoA are reliable? Or is it a blanket statement surrounding his translations in general (a small part being the facsimiles)? Am I making a wrong assumption?

[TheBackyardProfessor]

@fudley2003

Can you show that they are unreliable? With Egyptian evidence?

[fudley2003]

@TheBackyardProfessor Could you please answer my question about your statement? I'm just trying to understand you position.

To answer your question:

The very scholar you're quoting, Bell, would argue that the JS translations of the facsimiles in the BoA are unreliable even though he discusses (at times) that some critics are not 100% accurate. Am I off here?

[TheBackyardProfessor]

@fudley2003

Is Bell himself the FINAL answer? Does he know ***ALL*** there is to know about these particular facsimiles, and how they relate with other Egyptian literature? Is he familiar with ALL the LDS scholarly materials on these issues? Is he well read in ALL the Abraham literature available these days? Does any one singular individual have the FINAL say so on this?

[fudley2003]

@TheBackyardProfessor

Answers: No, No, No, No, and No. Please see my first remark to understand the context in which I agree with you.

So I ask you again:

Are you saying specifically that the JS translations of the facsimiles in the BoA are reliable, or was your previous statement regarding his translations a comment on his works as a whole (a small part being the facsimiles)?

[slvjm1]

"This is a resurrection".

Ok, but it is not a sacrifice of Abraham by an evil priest to some idols.

So... what.

According to Bell, Joseph was wrong in his "translation". He was wrong concerning what the scene is about and who the people in the scene are.

Perhaps you come to a point in part 4, but I cannot figure out where you are going with this. Bell does not support Smiths claims like you are suggesting.

[StorminMormin91]

Haha, I'm loving this! Keep it up! Wooh, on fire! Letting 'em have it ;D

[TrueSaintsLDS]

Charles Larson lied thru his teeth!

[TheBackyardProfessor]

No. Kerry is showing that no matter what I say, you will absolutely disagree with me. Especially on all subjects Mormonism. I keep baiting you and you keep stupidly taking the bait.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

LOL! Thank you for verifying for us that several of the 1912 so-called "experts" are quintessential idiots." We knew that, but it's always nice when someone besides us notices and says so also.

[Rommelator]

Yes, I too agree with Bell. The Letter of Fellowship is NOT the Book of Abraham. The question is whether or not Joseph Smith thought it was. That is what the debate is focusing around.

What Kerry is trying to show is that here is a non-Mormon who agrees with the Mormon scholars that Charles Larson was wrong in his reconstruction of the vignette in regard to the erect phallus and the second ba-bird.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Romm, Baurak Ale will never simply acknowledge what I say, so he has to create strawmen in order to sound like he knows the skinny on all things Mormonism. I have gotten used to it. I seriously never expect him toget anything I say. He simply doesn't want to, and he doesn't have to.

[ZorroTech88]

Thank You Professor, you are doing a great job keep up the good work

[Rommelator]

Cool. I guess we can agree on that.

Now to chat over the Mormon equivalent of a beer. ;^)

[Rommelator]

Oh, so you are calling Spalding's 1912 panel of scholars and Charles Larson "quintessential idiots"? They all said such to that effect. They spoke of "the deceased" on the lion couch being prepared for mummification, etc.

Well, I have to agree, at least in regard to Larson, since the 1912 scholars are still somewhat useful in their other Egyptological contributions, to an extent.

[Rommelator]

"that's not at all odd."

Actually, this vignette is extremely unique and odd. Klaus Baer was the first to note such in the late 60s. Professors Nibley and Gee have subsequently demonstrated such in both LDS and non-LDS venues. Gee's most recent was an Egyptological Conference earlier this year, wherein, like with his comments in the 20/1 FARMS Review, he showed that this vignette has been misplaced on the scroll of Horos, a common phenomenon with Horos and his family.

[Rommelator]

Well, the uniqueness of the vignette in P. Joseph Smith I is overwhelmingly established by several things:

1. Sobek

2. The celestial waters of Sobek.

3. The "pillars of heaven".

4. The presence of Anubis holding a knife.

5. The figure on the lion couch with two up lifted hands and legs.

And, the very presence of a lion couch scene of any kind in a Letter of Fellowship text is in and of itself unique. John Gee demonstrated that at a recent Egyptological Conference.

[Rommelator]

No need to get snooty. I simply pointed out that either way you like it (a resurrected Horos/Osiris or an alive Abraham) the person on the lion couch, contra Charles Larson, is not dead, not a mummy and certainly not being mummified.

[Rommelator]

Your rather glib analysis of the Letter of Fellowship aside, yes, thank you for backing me up on this. The Letter of Fellowship text does in fact teach one what one must do to be resurrected, among many other things. All the more reason why the person on the lion couch is not dead but alive.

[IExposeMormonism]

Question: as I understand and said below, Egypt, etc, did not have a "resurrection" system. It was a transmigration and reincarnation system of belief. can you clarify what you mean by the term? Perhaps you meant he was being reincarnated? I can't find resurrection as an Egyptian belief. Again, JSmith says it's a prep' for Abe's death. If L. Bell is right then JS is wrong.

[Rommelator]

No, the Egyptians most certainly believed in the resurrection. I'm not sure where you got the idea that the Egyptians didn't believe in the resurrection. Resurrection was a major part of Egyptian mythology. From Osiris being resurrected by Isis to the individual Egyptian being resurrected and becoming an Osiris it is completely wrong to say that they didn't believe in an Osiris. Why do you think Christianity took so well in Egypt? Because the dying and resurrecting god was common belief.

[IExposeMormonism]

Resurrection. vs "regeneration" or rebirth or transmigration or reincarnation. this is what they believed in. In Christianity it is the resurrection of the body. Josephus, not a Christian, says it quite clearly in his discourse on hades that it is a resurrection of the body. These egyptian ceremonies are rebirth/reincarnation/transmig­ration machine-ceremonies. I say "machine" because the entire assembly: room, lion couch, chanting,glyphs, etc are all part of a process to become again living

[Rommelator]

No, you are simply wrong. The Egyptians believed in a physical resurrection. Why the heck do you think they practiced mummification? Because when/if the soul (ba) of an individual was found pure at the judgement they would need their body when they were resurrected into the afterlife.

Why do you think Christianity spread like wildfire in Egypt? Because they already believed in a dying and resurrecting god in the form of Osiris. So it was easy for them to believe the claims of Christianity.

[Rommelator]

If you don't believe me, then start with Professor Rosalie David in "Religion and Magic in Ancient Egypt" (Penguin Books, 2002) pgs. 22, 28-9, 93-5, 100, 147-8, 154, 158-9, 160-61, 208.

It is startling to hear someone suggest that the Egyptians didn't believe in the resurrection. That would be just as fallacious to saying that Christians don't believe in the resurrection.

[IExposeMormonism]

Just did a little googling. I have to say I am right. Metempsychosis, transmigration, reincarnation is the theme. Coptics might have the idea of this in their theology, not sure. The body of Egyptian times was mummified to preserve the body on its journey but they didn't believe in a resurrection of "this" body. Google up and let me know.

[Rommelator]

Pardon me, but I am going to stick with what a published Egyptologist has written in a professional publishing venue than what a "google search" can come up with.

To the Egyptians, resurrection=rebirth=regenerat­ion=immortality=whatever other synonyms you want to use. Of course, as I said, the concept is not the exact same as in Christianity, but the basic concept of person dies, person gets divine aid, person gets body again, person becomes immortal is fundamental in Egyptian myth.

[IExposeMormonism]

Googling isn't a sin, neither does it diminish the accuracy or professionalism of information. If it does, what are we on youtube to do? All you will find are pages of information by professionals on the subjects here referred to.

[Rommelator]

You're right. I'm not saying that because something is online that automatically makes it wrong or false. However, I just have more confidence in works that have been published in peer-reviewed, academic venues.

[IExposeMormonism]

well, take a look-see and judge it.

[IExposeMormonism]

In all my years I have never heard of any Egyptian resurrection. When I went to the Rosecrussion Museum in San Jose (many times) and took the tour it was always a "regeneration machine". It is not a Christian resurrection as I understand it. But I shall do a little R&D and get back on the idea. On the aaronshaft (sp?) video on this subject they also use the word "resurrection".

[Rommelator]

Well then the problem seems to be a terminological one. To the Egyptians, rebirth/resurrection/regenerat­ion, etc. all meant the same thing. David notes that in her book. To be sure, the Egyptian concept of the resurrection is not the exact same as the Judeo-Christian concept, but the basic understanding of a god and/or mortals dying, losing their body and then regaining their body by divine means is the same in Egyptian belief as in Jewish and Christian belief.

[IExposeMormonism]

If L. Bell says the body is living he is wrong. According to other Egyptologist's.... They had no concept of Resurrection. It was a rebirth, a reincarnation, a transmigration of souls. Resurrection is the body made again. The Greeks, Egyptians, etc are in error. It's Resurrection "of the body". Paganism has no comprehension of it. They are fixed on transmigration or some kind of "sexual resurrection". If this is a rebirth Doesn't That Contradict the JSmith idea of Abe being prepped for death?

[Rommelator]

The Egyptians emphatically believed in the resurrection of both the soul and the body. What do you think Isis and Horus did with Osiris' scattered body parts? They brought them together, bound them with linen and resurrected him. And that was the goal of every Egyptian; to become an Osiris by being resurrected and exalted into the presence of the gods.

The figure in the vignette is alive, because of the raised legs and arms, and is supplicating for something with his hands stretched out.

[omiolo]

it seems there is a spaulding behind every ANTImormon conspiracy.

[TrueSaintsLDS]

Pretty sad isn't it?

[omiolo]

yeah, I think when they can't understand things they make up conspiracies. Laman and Lemuel were good at that.

[JosephKemper]

He had a lot of fun making this video.

[canadianbacon007]

Extraordinary!