Affirmative Action Debate: Terence J. Pell (6 of 14)

[PhantomLyric]

Also, he assumes a GREAT deal and puts much stock in, i might add, the idea that most blacks drop the science classes because it's too challenging. God forbid they want to go a different direction in their lives or that they decide they won't be able to do what they had planned due to unforeseen circumstances...

[PhantomLyric]

My problem with this guy is his argument focuses too heavily on 1 subject. He found some "alarming" numbers in the area of science and ran with it. He made many other interesting points but he gets a 5 out of 10 for effort. He just didn't deliver. Tim wise is the only person who has really made sense so far. Not because he's saying things that I want to hear (things I've studied to be true on my own time actually) but because it was most relevant, than even other supporters of AA.

[Mr1700]

teach kids at elementary and middle school we wouldnt have this debate.

[dscolar]

why america, why does everything in your country have to be racially oriented. what happened to just considering individuals for who they are.

[wissums1]

if affirmative action were to be removed and society took a step back, then we'd have to realize that affirmative action wasnt the issue and that theres a larger issue that must be taken into account. we shouldnt "need" affirmative action in order to provide equal opportunities. I also agree with the fact that elite schools shouldnt accept students with much lower credentials just to promote diversity. this just gives minorities a reason to say "well a c average is ok, ill still get into school"

[sk8bow]

pell's speech has merit, but it seems to me that affirmative action needs to be adjusted and upgraded.

i think there will be a time when aa is removed, but at this time, it would be

a move backwards for society.

[islandmuffin]

Both of Obamas parents were well educated, including his Irish/American mother and Kenyan father, a foreign national:

Who was oppressed most, (1) Obama, (2) his Irish/American mother or (3) Obamas Kenyan father?

Should the children of foreign nationals get racial preferences at all, especially since Obamas East African father holds little genetic information in common with American blacks, who are West Africans?

[holyhost]

I agree with you, "White privelege is still alive today".

[sjc2213]

People like Caucasianpride1 make me frightened and depressed.

[Caucasianpride1]

to NoGenius4Real: what statistics are you looking at ? We are talking about the US here not Fantasyland which is the land that most of blacks live in apparently. Oh, i forgot, yes you backs invented civilization, had flying machine while the white man wasliving in caves etc etc. Yeah..yeah..dream on idiot..

[genious4real]

@Caucasianpride1 as for statistics, I could care less about what you need to justify your bigotry! IF A BLACKMAN SPELLED AS BAD AS YOUR RETARDED ASS, YOU WOULD HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT IT! as for how proud you are to be white let me say that a friend of mine who happens to be white took one look at your spelling and said, "WHITE TRASH!" you are not wanted by your own people cause you make them look bad!

[Caucasianpride1]

..to (genius4real), so we have two Ph.d on spelling here! ..Ask your white friend sif he would live in a black neighborhood also..you jungle tree climber. Guess i spelled it right! Also be proud of you bananas eater selling drugs to whiteys, that is the best achievement of your race anyways, We have the best salesmen in the Us. I spelled this right also..ask your "friend"..

[genious4real]

@Caucasianpride1 you are the best your race can come up with?!!!!!! good thing you are white cause if you were graded on brains you would be in a zoo where you belong. since you found yourself over matched you had to resort to name calling. as is the case with most of your people, you were smart enough to do it from a safe distance. very smart. as for my friends walking in a black area, they are even protected by other blacks just in case things get out of hand. you, we mug.

[sleepcity]

@genious4real What is a "blackman"? Is that the same as black man? Is not calling a white person you disagree with "white trash" equivalent to a white person calling a black person they disagree with "black trash"? How would you respond to such a criticism? I bet you might feel compelled to call that racist. No? Oh right... I forgot..all white people are, by default, bad guys. AND that's not racist, you'd claim. Come on...grow up.

[genious4real]

@sleepcity I am not sensitive about being called names since I have pretty much used to it in this "great nation". To tell you the truth I like being called a nigger by whites, it means I am getting to them. Blacks whites like, most of the time, get that "buddy" at the expense of their self respect. as for all white people being bad, no I don't believe that at all! my communist white freinds are just great!!

[sleepcity]

@genious4real Wow, you really need to read McWhorter on "victimology." What name did I call you? Please point out where I called you a name. Oh and by the way I'm a libertarian socialist. Of course that doesn't fit in with your caricature so feel free to ignore it. How old are you, by the way? I'm curious.

[genious4real]

@sleepcity No, I don't have to read Mcwhorter on "victimology"! you advise me to read him simply because he relieves you of the guilt that comes with knowing you have never really earned anything in your life. I will agree with Malcolm X who said, "just because you chase a thief out of your house that does not make you a thief in reverse!!!". If you knew anything about the history of America you would know that Blacks have been its victim for 400 years. oh, and as I tell other whites,

[genious4real]

@sleepcity as I tell other whites, you will have to be more than white to earn respect with me. That said, you call yourself a 'libertarian socialist". What are your core beliefs? you will have to defend them with me so take your time.

[Caucasianpride1]

to Gensius4real(i doubt that). Truth hurts more than wrong spelling (bacuse of fast typing) dear idiot! race superiority has nothing to do with it, even thou reading your answers, i do think so. Anyways, the stats meant to display the fact the black community HAS a problem! And the Afrtican Americans are NOT dealing with it, because is connvenient! the ugly white man is so stupid that is handing everything out to them for free!! Why try to integrate? (cont..)

[Caucasianpride1]

Racism: yes sure, every time we say the truth we are racists! Very easy to solve problem like that: he/she is racist!! Thats why!! Is because of the racism of white people that blacks drop out of school, and join the rank of criminals that infest our cities and towns. Is beacuse of the white racist man that Detroit is a cesspit! (82%blacks and they administer almost everything). Plenty of examples aroun dthe world an din the Us, they just can't(the vast majority)!! that's the truth..hurts?

[genious4real]

@Caucasianpride1 hey I don't want to stay on such a trivial thing, in my view, but I can't let it go that again you say "PLENTY OF EXAMPLES AROUN DTHE WORLD AN DIN THE US" Hey I make my share of mistakes also, but are not you the superior race? you are doing a terrible job of proving it.

[Caucasianpride1]

well is just commit writing mistakes because i am passionate about it, you damn idiot! It is not a matter of superior race or inferior race, see you always relate things to "racism". It is about facts!! facts show that an ethnic, religious or whatever group of people or population behave in a certain way..so society, I believe, has to adapt to those social behaviors and treat them accordingly for the wellness of the whole community! In this case, black sin the Us are a huge problem because

[genious4real]

@Caucasianpride1 first of all asshole, I was trying to give your dumbass soem slack. I don't give a shit why you made spelling mistakes! if you are so much better than us blacks you should be spelling your own fucking language better than you do. don't give me any excuses as to why.

[Caucasianpride1]

..ehi...try to walk at night time in a black neighborhood and see what happens to your white or black ass..

[genious4real]

@Caucasianpride1 I guess you, like most whites think im white because I make you look stupid! I am black and proud of it. As for walking in a black neighborhood, any area that is poor is dangerous! in history some of the toughest places have been where poor italian and irish immigrants lived. black areas can't be that bad, your people get their heroin and coke there! no black dealer can make big money without at least 5 white boys ripping off "grandma".

[Caucasianpride1]

Naked truth: no matter what we will do to get the blacks up to "standard", they never will! We have seen it, we have tried, they're still at the bottom of the american society in Everything. Is the "white man" the keeps the black man down, right?while the others, chinese, indians etc, just progress and are very integrated in the society and they don't BITCH about everything and DEMAND things to be given to them! Clear now?

[genious4real]

@Caucasianpride1 AMAZING!!! SIMPLY AMAZING!!!! Here also this guy writes" Is the white man THE KEEPS the black man down, right?". THIS IS A MEMBER OF THE SUPERIOR RACE?!!!!! as for the chinese and indians integrating, they set up their own areas! they consider most whites like you to be immoral and hedonistic.

[Caucasianpride1]

that's the evidence: affirmative action is used to give jobs to illiterate ignorants. That means that the quality of our colleges, police, public admin etc will be like the SouthAfrican one very soon. We are hitting the bottom of the barrel...

[genious4real]

@Caucasianpride1 By "illiterate ignorants" I assume you are talking about George Bush and Sarah Palin. and could it be that "We are hitting the bottom of the barrel" because whites snort upwards of 70% of the worlds cocaine?

[Caucasianpride1]

No, i am talking about all the black males dropouts in school. di you heer these people, two of which are black, talking about statistics?Whites snorts, is true, but we don't Kill, rape, rob at the same rate/volume that blacks do! Again, statistics talk..not word..idiot4real (not genius)!

[genious4real]

@Caucasianpride1 you say you don't kill, rape, or rob at the same rate! in 1965 whites were 75 times more likely to kill and rape! you people are amazing in that you are so convenient in your time tables and crimes committed. I made mention that whites are really very average and I thought I would have a tough time proving it, but you helped me out. whilst, I did spell genius as, well, you know, you write "di you heer". THAT IS MY POINT TO PERFECTION! AVERAGE, NOTHING MORE.

[Caucasianpride1]

..(sorry for the typing mistakes). Go on the FBI website and explain why a minority gets the majority, in percentage, of people incarcerated because of crime. I'd rather have people the snort but harmless than a bunch of hiphop criminals as neighbours! What about yourself?

[genious4real]

@Caucasianpride1 whites make up the majority of drug users but are 10 times less likely to be frisked for them! whitewomen are 2 times more likely to have drugs on them at an airport but blackwomen are more likely to be searched! if whites make up the majority of drug users why are they not in the numbers that reflect it? racism! the truth be told most blacks are amazed by the amount of drugs done by whites, the ease in having sex, wife swapping, kissing animals in the mouth!

[fishsticksIV]

@Caucasianpride1

Go back to Stormfront...... Do you people have a job? Go do something meaningful with your life.

[Caucasianpride1]

@fishsticksIV : i do have a job..do you? Go back to the Black Panthers! LOL

[bopcici85]

man i should of went to an hbcu

[kingston554]

I LOVE AFFIRMATIVE ACTION!

sorry white ppl, payback is a bitch!!! suck it

[laffytaffygreen]

Most black students graduate from HBCUs in EVERY SUBJECT, not just math and science. These institutions, although they struggle financially, graduate black students and create black leaders. I think the question Ivy Leagues should be asking, if they're interested in diversity, is why? What mechanism takes place in these universities that nurtures these students? This might be the key to understanding what could take the place of, or adjust AA to minimize the racial disparity in admissions.

[laffytaffygreen]

So, is he saying that the competition discourages these students? What is he saying? If he said that a person with the same math score on their SAT did poorly at Howard, I would see his point. That would mean that the low test score is a problem and the score has to be higher to do well in a math or science program. Or, is he indicating that Howard is less rigorous in its program than Harvard because I sure would like for him to prove that theory, since Howard has beat Harvard in debates, etc.

[laffytaffygreen]

His argument seems to negate itself. If someone with the same SAT score goes to Howard and succeeds and goes to Harvard and fails, or switches majors, the logical question would be what is Howard doing to nurture their success that Harvard isn't doing? That indicates that a test score is not necessarily an indicator as to how well you will do in a science program. His argument is black students with lower math scores on the SAT can go to school and do well if they don't go to an Ivy League.

[SEEDLESS619420]

what ever happend to the better man gettin the job? you test higher. your more qualified than the other kid. regardless of race. you think college officials are favoring white people nowadays? ahahahahaha when colleges and high schools have "gay alliance groups" and "equal oppurtunity". DO YOU REALLY THINK THE BLACKS ARE THE ONES GETTTIN NAILED ON HERE? OR IS IT REVERSE RACISM? LIBERALISM IN A MENTAL DISORDER. ENOUGH SAID.

[andyx1205]

Why should us Asians be PENALIZED? We didn't own any Black Slaves.

And also, Jews have been mistreated throughout history. Why, then, do they not benefit from AA? Is it because they are smart enough to achieve the necessary scores to be accepted into a top University, without the need of a boost?

Ashkenazi Jews have the highest intelligence according to studies, followed by East Asians, South Asians, Whites, and then Blacks.

[MrRingmaster]

I'm amused that there are no white females involed in this conversation considering the fact, that white females have benefitted most significantly from AA.

[jackburton2009]

The underlying problem, is that Marxist liberals continue to tell us that any inequality in performance and success has to do with "racism" or some other bogeyman.

The reality is races are not equal, anymore than individuals are equal. There are genetic differences, IQ being an important one.

Equal opportunity does not mean equal outcome.

[mqf0489]

You can't compare the number of Black science majors from a 90% Black school to the Black science majors of a 10% Black school.

He should have used a school that was a better comparison in the amount of Black students attending. HBCU's will always educate the most Blacks in any subject.

[averagejoesgym71]

This guy just argued against himself if you listen carefully. He's saying that since Blacks do better in an environment where they don't face constant racism (Howard), then that is proof that we should reduce their opportunities EVEN MORE at places where they do not due as well, at least in part, due to racism (e.g. Yale). He's trying to logic his way through this, pretending that he has no bigotry. Alas, he just exposes himself more.

[mcphenol]

"Blacks do better in an environment where they don't face constant racism".

no he said black do better in an environment where they are closer in qualification to their peers.

[averagejoesgym71]

Yes, he did. Schools like Harvard have rich White kids that went to the top prep schools. It is hard to match scores with them from non-rich people. But, the minority kid also has to deal with the fact that those rich White kids think he should be treated of him as a servant. This situation can grind a man down---depression anxiety. Those things affect energy, motivation, cognition, etc... So, yeah, they drop out more but it is only in small part due to credentials.

[adrianfrasco]

"But, the minority kid also has to deal with the fact that those rich White kids think he should be treated of him as a servant"

what white people are you talking about. most white people (as well as most PEOPLE) are open, liberal, nondiscriminatory folk. making blanket statements has made you look as ignorant as those "white people" you lambaste.

[adrianfrasco]

"This situation can grind a man down---depression anxiety"

What would you know about minority struggle? Are you the pallbearer for different groups of entire races? You talk of white boys in denial yet you show yourself to be just that. You are the worst kind of person, a self hater and blamer.You seek blame but when you find that there is no one person to blame, you accuse an entire race. Even if you point is valid, you espouse it in ways that ruin any remaining credibility.

[GaiusIuliusTaberna]

He never mentioned racism, do you really believe everyone in elite universities are racist? Its far more likely that the discrimination is based on the gap in credentials. In short, putting someone in a place where their record says they do not belong, sets them up for failure.

This paranoia that anyone who would dare appose favoring one group over another must be racist is absurd, I would argue that the opposite is far more likely.

[averagejoesgym71]

America is affirmative action for whites, period. Right now, on some university campus, there is an alcoholic, overweight white janitor without a high school degree that still thinks he is without question of a higher stock than the nobel-prize nominated minority professor who he sees in the hallway. That is how ingrained "white is right" is. Literally anytime, anyone covertly observes whites they catch them screwing over people of color on housing, loans, jobs, etc.. (out of room)

[GaiusIuliusTaberna]

Ok that sounds insane, racist, and offensive. Not all white people are racists, and America and western Europe especially, are anti white more than pro white these days. But really, when ever you start on this thought policing, "I know what they are thinking" bs, its pretty much the end of the discussion.

[averagejoesgym71]

Oh my, being white is so awful. Please, let me hand you a hanky. I'm not gonna say much about western Europe as I have not studied/observed it nearly as much as the U.S. I can say that in the U.S. European-Americans ("whites") have achieved their status by slaughtering, lying, cheating, betraying, stealing, and generally being pretty lousy people. Everything but the slaughtering goes on routinely today. Like a thorn in one's side, the truth hurts.

[GaiusIuliusTaberna]

Oh, the poor poor Africans, someone's great great grand father long dead did nasty things to them so I who have no relation to anyone involved in slavery has to tout the bill for their inability to be as upwardly mobile as my poor immigrant grand parents and mother?

Um sorry, that's not "the truth" that's black supremacist propaganda.

The difference between you and me. Is that you are a racist, and I'm not. You obviously hate white people and think they are all evil. And that's pretty ironic

[averagejoesgym71]

You're a little privileged boy in denial. You have no clue. Read some books, watch some documentaries, look at the sociology, economics, psychology. You sound like a little punk. Spare me wtih your blame the victim Bill O'Reilly nonsesne. Idiot.

[GaiusIuliusTaberna]

Privileged?! Privileged to you is my grandmother working in a sowing factory for 5 cents a day, while my grandfather laid bricks for 10 cents a day. Privileged is my father building gas stations while my mother cleaned houses. privileged is my mother coming to this country in the forth grade not speaking a word of English and having to learn it herself by reading children's books!

You have no idea what privileged is, and you have no idea who you are talking to you judgmental hypocritical bigot!

[averagejoesgym71]

What is your appearance/national origin of your parents? I may be able to provide you with some education if you choose to let me know.

[cmarcelin1001]

The facts are that if you grandparents were working for 5 and 10 cents, than their black counter parts working making 2 cents. And when you grandparents earned enough to own land they were allowed to. Black people worked twice as hard for far less pay and got absolutely zero rights. It's not your fault or mine; its just a fact of history in America. I do not know what the fair solution is, but we can never find it if basic historical facts or ignored and we start playing the blame game.

[sleepcity]

@averagejoesgym71 Right. I guess the history of "white" people (please let me know if that currently includes Jewish people, Eastern Europeans, etc. because that seems to be a fluid conception) means that people who are born "white" must somehow bear responsibility for historical injustices you're somewhat aware of. Even poor white people, like myself, are inherently oppressors because of the color of their skin. Oh but wait -- that isn't racism. White people are evil but...um...uh..wait...gee.

[Entropy56]

Right now, on some university campus, there is an alcoholic, overweight black janitor without a high school degree that still thinks he is without question of a higher stock than the nobel-prize nominated white professor who he sees in the hallway. That is how ingrained "black is right" is.

[islandmuffin]

AA is needed because Obama could not have succeeded without racial preferences!

Obamas mediocre grades at Occidental College did not merit admission into Colombia, where his mediocre grades should have precluded admittance to Harvard Law School, where he was artificially thrust to the lead the Harvard Law Review, where he became the first leader NOT to write editorial pieces.

[benympls]

@averagejoesgym71 #1 Really? Really? We are speaking of people&individuals! While their are whites with passed down wealth or alumni benefits(wich i'm not in favor of!) they're many that are not. My family came to this country 90 years ago when my grandparents 1st arrived they lived in a mostly black neighborhood & were so poor they had to sell their daughter to the local black business men. My great grandfather busted granite into pieces with a sludge hammer for a living&my grandpa was in

[troyceo]

@benympls Tim Wise gave the best discourse. It is the elite so-called "whites" that got the working class and the so-called blacks tricked into thinking it's a problem amongst them, when in fact it is their deception to keep themselves rich at both of our expenses. Both races need to wake up to the deception and get rid of EVERYBODY that is in politics right now. We need to clean house and start over. That is the only way true change is gonna come for the working class.

[benympls]

@troyceo i completely agree, i find these talks similar to AA stories, even though everybody says they dont judge & wants to do better they'll all brag about who had it worst. Some peoples experiences might be a little bit worst some might be alittle bit better but if you got it bad, you got it bad. All this is, is a distraction from like you said to devert attention from those who are actually doing the stealing of resources

[benympls]

@averagejoesgym71 #2 my grandpa was in WWII & worked in the post office for the rest of his life. A perk you get from being in the army & many black vets worked in the post office as well. My parents were the 1st people in families WHOLE history to go to college & still only made 38,000 a year COMBINED, for a family of 4. They coulda made the same money if they worked at Mickey D's. People want to think poor whites must be inbreed idiots but thats not the case, how is my family privileged?

[sleepcity]

@averagejoesgym71 The more we resort to caricatures and stereotypes the longer racism will be around. Thanks for doing your part. 

[ddchoidbx275]

Terence Pell made the most compelling case. We now have over 40yrs of data that clearly prove that AA is not helping blacks, denying qualified Asians and white students of educational opportunities, and hasn't helped black people be all they can be.

So AA is really no good to anyone!

It's only being upheld by racist admission officers and universities.

[aznxkatorogi]

all i've heard was "black" n "white"

[Xproletariatx]

Yea its fucking ridiculous.

[WildFann]

He's supposed to be one-sided WondaWoman, its a debate. You pick one side or the other. I can imagine it being hard for a white person to make an argument for the motion because it has the tendency to sound racist. However, if people would just listen to the arguments made against the motion rather than just being a guilty liberal, they might understand the inconsistencies and imperfections of A.A. In any legitimately run education system, grades and credentials should judge one's admission.

[BillBisco]

eh, I'm not sure about all these statistics. I need some more evidence.

[jays2474]

I truely wish Black People would look at what White Liberal's have actually done for them,NOTHING!Through History if You look it up You will find that alot of the opposition to intergration came from Liberal Democrat's.Liberal's want You to rely on Them because They feel You are inferior,and You need Them to take care of You.Normal American's know this is'nt true.If We bring it up though,We are racist.You ever notice the race card mostly is used by White Liberal's?Not Black People.

[poetree2000]

so what is he saying???? only allow blacks to go to historically black colleges???? he sucks!!!

[WONDAWOMAN]

funny, at first I thought that the man in the corner was doing stenography or something . On second look, he must have been immensely bored or impatient.hence the piano playing fingers. What I did notice is that this man only quoted the rate at which black students who major in science graduate. Why did he not state the rate at which caucasian students who major in science actually complete the degree and graduate? Sounded pretty one-sided to me.

[vergeharget]

Interesting idea that gifted balck science students do better and go further when they attend second tier schools, as a matter of statistical generality.

Itzik basman