One thing not to forget: are we talking about women's tennis or women's singles. Court and Navratilova did it all: singles, doubles and mixed. Throughout their prime years and even after, they entered all the grand slams in all three categories. Martina won two consecutive grand slams in doubles with Pam Shriver. There were years when she won Wimbledon and the U.S. in all three.That somewhat leaves Steffi and Chris out of competition, with all respect to these two great singles players.
what about when champions like kvitova or li na lose in the first round of 3 tourneys in a row or having a number 1 who loses in the quarters or semis of every tournament?
Finally with Graf, I think her numbers are a bit inflated... basically her main adversary was Monica Seles and she was taken out of the picture prematurely. I'd say Graf really should have gotten about 18. I think she's a definitely one of the best, but she is an example of someone who benefited from extenuating circumstances. Serena, with the murder of her sister and her constant injuries, obviously did not benefit. You can still disagree, but at least the discussion's more meaningful now.
The main argument I would make against Court is that 11 of her slams were at the Australian... a tournament that the big pros didnt normally play until the 80s. Without that she falls far behind.
The imaginary head to head is irrelevant because training techniques evolve. Even then, would you give it to Serena if they were using wood?
And, in terms of relative competition, Martina shared her era with a player that is normally considered the 3rd best player of all time.
@TheViewerGeneric You're absolutely right abt. Graf and Seles. That's the one thing the Graf fans don't want to hear. For many experts, every title (particularly the grand slams) that Graf won after the stabbibg of Seles must go into the history books with an asterisk next to it and an appropriate foot-note at the bottom of the page.
Court has the most number of slams, but you can argue that it wasn't as physically exhausting to win a slam back then, and you can argue that fewer people took it as seriously. Same thing with Navratilova- she might have a lot of grand slams, but her main adversary was Chris Evert (their record is basically tied), and though she was a great champion, she would lose to Serena 10 times out of 10.
This discussion is stupid. Why don't you guys establish criteria for these debates? Are we talking about who stays consistently good? About who would win head to head when they're both playing well? How many slams a person has? Are we accounting for extenuating circumstances and the depth of the field?
I believe Serena would beat anybody in a head to head match. She's has the most raw athleticism and she's actually hits the ball pretty accurately and definitely really hard.
This discussion is stupid. Why don't you guys establish criteria for these debates? Are we talking about who stays consistently good? About who would win head to head when they're both playing well? How many slams a person has? Are we accounting for extenuating circumstances and the depth of the field?
I believe Serena would beat anybody in a head to head match. She's has the most raw athleticism and she's actually hits the ball pretty accurately and definitely really hard.
the bottom line is that martina is right. when everyone talks about equal prize money they bring up that point women win 6-0,6-0, well so is the case with the top men. top men and top women do about the same in the early rounds, respectively.
look guys don't fight here because every one was best in his time you can't say that navratilova is better because navratilova didn't played in this period of 1999 and more i mean the tennis woman is such a powerfull now at our days in tennis the 200 ranked player can beat number 1 player tennis now is more difficult than in the past and the level of the tennis is much higher than was
if it wasn't for them half the players wouldn't be half of what they are today....and what's that? boring. the women's game is at its lowest it's ever been. a bunch of wannabe's that grunt, hit as hard as they can, and whoever can slam the ball without it going out the most wins.
Dear Dirtyfishydishcloth, I probably wouldn't have formulated it so harshly, but you are absolutely right. All these girls hit the ball rather well, but have no idea about playing tennis. And what about a net game? Do the tournament organizers put poison on the nets during the ladies' matches, to keep them away from it. When was the last time you saw a woman come to the net voluntarily (during the match)? It's like Martina Navratilova, Billie Jean King, Hanna Mandlikova never existed.
i prefer the womens game-but seriously whoever is arguing about the williams give it a rest you're embarrassing yourself,they might have powerful serves but venus only throws down a massive one now and again-not consistently-and have you seen her 2nd serve its not even in the top ten womens
well if Henin is so good why was she smahed this year then huh, during 2006 when the williams's had other things going on as well as injuries they decided to come back and be better than ever can henin, no, she doesnt have a amrk of a champion, the williams sisters come back all the time if they have match points and a set down against them they always come back, can henin, no not really, cause shes weak and always cheats and asks her coach for advise cause she to stupid to make up her own mind.
Henin was playing shit because Serena Dominated right from the get go, Henin has nothing over Serena, she got lucky at Wimbledon 07 because serena went in with a tore leg muslce and a sprained thumb and it still took henin 3 sets to win.
And if Henin was so good, who does she lose in round 1 when she is healthy apose to williams who never loses in round one when injured, Serena has never lost rnd 1, has only lost in rnd 2 once, first slam.
both the williams sisters have positive records against henin...in fact, both the williams sisters have very good records against most top female tennis stars EVER including steffi graf...the williams together and by themselves are hands down the best women tennis player ever and you wanna know why? BECAUSE THEY PLAY A MENS STYLE OF TENNIS! bombarding with power and counterpunching from the baseline...making the other guys run around, dictating play with groundstrokes
@WikipediaRules Yeah, that's not true. Serena has a 1-1 record against Graf, and beat her as a teenager. Since then, Serena has only gotten better. Venus has a decent record against Graf as well. I think 2-3.
What an idiiot you are. Venus isnt even a top 20 player all time. Only 7 slams, only 2 slams outside of Wimbledon, never winning an Ausralian or French, never ending a year ranked #1. As for head to head with Graf she was 2-3 trailing vs an old injured past her prime Graf, LOL!
As for head to head Venus's head to head with Henin means bullshit since all her matches except 1 were before Henin won the 1st of her 7 slams all before her prime (and the one after she lost in straight sets).
@Leomerya12 Venus isnt being compared to me, she is being compared to Graf or Navratilova by her ardent fans which is a joke. The people she should be compared with are Henin or Goolagong. Williams fanatics have a distorted view on their place in history, even Serena is barely top 10 and she is far above Venus.
@Leomerya12 Not only by that but a 7 slam winner is never in the league of a 20 slam winner. Particularly one who can only win on grass (and for 2 years on decoturf).
@Leomerya12 Court is possibly the greatest ever. I am not sure if I rank her over Graf and Navratilova though. Like I said it is not only about total slams, but when someone has as few as Venus (7) relative to ones with about 3 times as many (18-24) and hasnt even won 2 of the 4 slams then they cant be compared really.
I must have been listening to a different telecast than the rest of you, because Martina was NOT comparing the women to the men; she was saying Henin is much better than the women she beats easily, just like Federer is much better than the men he beats easily.
She raised the point to counter those who say Henin dominated because her opponents weren't that good. Her point is, Henin's opponents really are good, it's just that Henin is a couple levels better.
Yes, you're right. But Navratilova is wrong, as usual. What the critics of the WTA were saying is that there isn't nearly the depth in the women's game, and they're right. By the way, for the people who are comparing the women to the men, the women would have trouble getting even a game off any of the top 200 guys. Oh, as for my qualifications, I'm a tennis pro who played the satellite circuit years ago.
I don't agree with Martina and simply believe that the ATP is SIGNIFICANTLY stronger and that the general difference in skill level between the men and the women is gaping...
The Williams sisters lost to some guy ranked in the 300's or something who had just come back from having a meal or something? played practice sets with them and beat them with ease.
Please do not compare Serena's ground strokes with Novak, who has arguably the most consistently powerful forehand and backhand package in the whole tennis world.
Wow! Mister Consistently Powerful Forehand and Backhand of The Tennis World Only Has One Grand Slam. I'm Sure That All The Best Players Only Have One Grand Slam. Novak Is Good, But Your Claim Is Melodramatic. Serena and Venus's Serves Clearly Show That They Are Up With The Guys In The Power Department So Don't Make Claims That There Strokes Are Poor Compared To Novak's.
Don't be silly. Novak has some of the best groundstrokes in the world for the men. No woman could seriously hope to compete in a competative match. There is also no 2 players who are the equivalents of Federer and Nadal on the WTA tour. The very top of the mens game right now is quite staggering. So many people would like tokid themselves and think that the womens tour is equally as strong, but quite simply, it isn't.
I believe that Novak has some terrific strokes. I didn't say that woman were equally as good as the guys anyway, i was responding to the comments that were downgrading Serena. If you look at the stats, the William's sisters are averaging about a slowish serve compared to the mens tour, and there fast serves certainly reach the average! I think that Martina was exagerrating a bit here, But a few girls are up there, u know who. Hey, Novak may be better, but the Williams' sisters are up there.
Martina Navratilova was exagerrating on Henin but she did say the Williams sister the best players ever on the WTA, they may not have 24 singles slams but they changed the game, if it wasnt for them half the players wouldnt be half of what they are today.
there was a time when the williams siters beat the men, This year at the hopman cup majority of the rallys Serena out hit Novak, thats saying something.
The Williams sisters never beat the men. When the played against Karsten Braasch (203 in the world at the time), he beat each of them easily. You can look it up. As for the Hopman Cup, the women don't play against the men. And if you're talking about mixed doubles, it's a different game.
Actully yes they did if you paid any attention at all, after that they then played a guy in the 500's and won.
And no shit shirlock I live in australia so i know more about the hopman than u ever will, u go back and watch Serena against Djokovic in the rallys, serena out hit him 8/10 times, she served around 120 and bareley got passed 100 and that was when he was serving to fish.
I doubt you know more about these matters than I do, Sherlock (correct spelling, by the way), since I'm a tennis pro who once played the circuit. Oh, who would this man in the 500s be? Have a name, Sherlock? And even if that's true, the guy would have had to have choked big time. Also, women's tennis is pretty lame if you have to brag about her beating a player in the 500s. I'll be waiting for the name, though. But I won't hold my breath.
U must be a nerd if u no there saying jeez anyone into sport clearly isnt a nerd but u how the fuck word anyone no that shit, go and die, no one would miss you.
Oh yeh and another thing if u did say u pllauyed on the tour, ok when ever that was like 500 years ago, that was then before the Williams sisters chnaged the game to what it is now, mens and womens game.
I play on ITF these days and its not grandpa style anymore loser
One thing not to forget: are we talking about women's tennis or women's singles. Court and Navratilova did it all: singles, doubles and mixed. Throughout their prime years and even after, they entered all the grand slams in all three categories. Martina won two consecutive grand slams in doubles with Pam Shriver. There were years when she won Wimbledon and the U.S. in all three.That somewhat leaves Steffi and Chris out of competition, with all respect to these two great singles players.
assindiastignani 3 months ago
what about when champions like kvitova or li na lose in the first round of 3 tourneys in a row or having a number 1 who loses in the quarters or semis of every tournament?
TsunetaroMoriyama 4 months ago
Finally with Graf, I think her numbers are a bit inflated... basically her main adversary was Monica Seles and she was taken out of the picture prematurely. I'd say Graf really should have gotten about 18. I think she's a definitely one of the best, but she is an example of someone who benefited from extenuating circumstances. Serena, with the murder of her sister and her constant injuries, obviously did not benefit. You can still disagree, but at least the discussion's more meaningful now.
TheViewerGeneric 1 year ago
@TheViewerGeneric
The main argument I would make against Court is that 11 of her slams were at the Australian... a tournament that the big pros didnt normally play until the 80s. Without that she falls far behind.
The imaginary head to head is irrelevant because training techniques evolve. Even then, would you give it to Serena if they were using wood?
And, in terms of relative competition, Martina shared her era with a player that is normally considered the 3rd best player of all time.
alin1975 8 months ago
@TheViewerGeneric You're absolutely right abt. Graf and Seles. That's the one thing the Graf fans don't want to hear. For many experts, every title (particularly the grand slams) that Graf won after the stabbibg of Seles must go into the history books with an asterisk next to it and an appropriate foot-note at the bottom of the page.
assindiastignani 3 months ago
Court has the most number of slams, but you can argue that it wasn't as physically exhausting to win a slam back then, and you can argue that fewer people took it as seriously. Same thing with Navratilova- she might have a lot of grand slams, but her main adversary was Chris Evert (their record is basically tied), and though she was a great champion, she would lose to Serena 10 times out of 10.
TheViewerGeneric 1 year ago
This discussion is stupid. Why don't you guys establish criteria for these debates? Are we talking about who stays consistently good? About who would win head to head when they're both playing well? How many slams a person has? Are we accounting for extenuating circumstances and the depth of the field?
I believe Serena would beat anybody in a head to head match. She's has the most raw athleticism and she's actually hits the ball pretty accurately and definitely really hard.
TheViewerGeneric 1 year ago
This discussion is stupid. Why don't you guys establish criteria for these debates? Are we talking about who stays consistently good? About who would win head to head when they're both playing well? How many slams a person has? Are we accounting for extenuating circumstances and the depth of the field?
I believe Serena would beat anybody in a head to head match. She's has the most raw athleticism and she's actually hits the ball pretty accurately and definitely really hard.
TheViewerGeneric 1 year ago
I see her point, but wouldn't most agree that even the top seeded women are more likely to lose than the top seeded men?
fungamesss 1 year ago
Justine Henin is a cheating boy-shaped flat chested , beady eyed, aged looking liar...just like NavRATilova.
letmetalk2u 1 year ago
the bottom line is that martina is right. when everyone talks about equal prize money they bring up that point women win 6-0,6-0, well so is the case with the top men. top men and top women do about the same in the early rounds, respectively.
holocaustik 1 year ago
Well said Martina!
Peteypooooo 2 years ago
look guys don't fight here because every one was best in his time you can't say that navratilova is better because navratilova didn't played in this period of 1999 and more i mean the tennis woman is such a powerfull now at our days in tennis the 200 ranked player can beat number 1 player tennis now is more difficult than in the past and the level of the tennis is much higher than was
todik 2 years ago
@todik
women are more powerfull now bcz of the rackets!
saar144 1 year ago
if it wasn't for them half the players wouldn't be half of what they are today....and what's that? boring. the women's game is at its lowest it's ever been. a bunch of wannabe's that grunt, hit as hard as they can, and whoever can slam the ball without it going out the most wins.
yawn.
dirtyfishydishcloth 2 years ago 3
Dear Dirtyfishydishcloth, I probably wouldn't have formulated it so harshly, but you are absolutely right. All these girls hit the ball rather well, but have no idea about playing tennis. And what about a net game? Do the tournament organizers put poison on the nets during the ladies' matches, to keep them away from it. When was the last time you saw a woman come to the net voluntarily (during the match)? It's like Martina Navratilova, Billie Jean King, Hanna Mandlikova never existed.
assindiastignani 2 years ago
i prefer the womens game-but seriously whoever is arguing about the williams give it a rest you're embarrassing yourself,they might have powerful serves but venus only throws down a massive one now and again-not consistently-and have you seen her 2nd serve its not even in the top ten womens
lollipopdouche 3 years ago
well if Henin is so good why was she smahed this year then huh, during 2006 when the williams's had other things going on as well as injuries they decided to come back and be better than ever can henin, no, she doesnt have a amrk of a champion, the williams sisters come back all the time if they have match points and a set down against them they always come back, can henin, no not really, cause shes weak and always cheats and asks her coach for advise cause she to stupid to make up her own mind.
lacheyrulez 3 years ago
the williams' cant even dominate in such a weak field at the moment
they're lucky henin decided to call it a day
and btw henin just played shite against serena in miami-thats all-serena didnt have to do much-henin was pbly thinking of retirement anyway
noone really likes the williams' apart from williams fans-and thats not because of racism-its just that they are so irritating
lollipopdouche 3 years ago
omg how retarded are you
Seriosly
God almighty.
Henin was playing shit because Serena Dominated right from the get go, Henin has nothing over Serena, she got lucky at Wimbledon 07 because serena went in with a tore leg muslce and a sprained thumb and it still took henin 3 sets to win.
And if Henin was so good, who does she lose in round 1 when she is healthy apose to williams who never loses in round one when injured, Serena has never lost rnd 1, has only lost in rnd 2 once, first slam.
lacheyrulez 3 years ago
both the williams sisters have positive records against henin...in fact, both the williams sisters have very good records against most top female tennis stars EVER including steffi graf...the williams together and by themselves are hands down the best women tennis player ever and you wanna know why? BECAUSE THEY PLAY A MENS STYLE OF TENNIS! bombarding with power and counterpunching from the baseline...making the other guys run around, dictating play with groundstrokes
rockerduff1231 3 years ago
don't be stupid, the williams sisters aren't even inteh same league as martina navratilova or steffi graf. stupid
WikipediaRules 2 years ago 2
Dumbass wikipedia strikes again.
Navrat and Steffi both played in the same league as the Williams, Navrat never played them tho, STeffi did.
Navratilova even says that they are the best tennis players in the owrld, her words from her mouth,
lacheyrulez 2 years ago
what i mean is that they are nowhere near as good as steffi and navrat. simple as
WikipediaRules 2 years ago
both williams had very good records against graf....navritalova has a decent record against graf so that kind of speaks for itself
stupid
rockerduff1231 2 years ago
@WikipediaRules Yeah, that's not true. Serena has a 1-1 record against Graf, and beat her as a teenager. Since then, Serena has only gotten better. Venus has a decent record against Graf as well. I think 2-3.
Leomerya12 1 year ago
What an idiiot you are. Venus isnt even a top 20 player all time. Only 7 slams, only 2 slams outside of Wimbledon, never winning an Ausralian or French, never ending a year ranked #1. As for head to head with Graf she was 2-3 trailing vs an old injured past her prime Graf, LOL!
As for head to head Venus's head to head with Henin means bullshit since all her matches except 1 were before Henin won the 1st of her 7 slams all before her prime (and the one after she lost in straight sets).
russianskatingfan 2 years ago
@russianskatingfan ONLY 7 Slams!? Wow, you must have about twenty.
Leomerya12 1 year ago
@Leomerya12 Venus isnt being compared to me, she is being compared to Graf or Navratilova by her ardent fans which is a joke. The people she should be compared with are Henin or Goolagong. Williams fanatics have a distorted view on their place in history, even Serena is barely top 10 and she is far above Venus.
russianskatingfan 1 year ago
@russianskatingfan How exactly do you rate a player? By how many slams they get?
Leomerya12 1 year ago
@Leomerya12 Not only by that but a 7 slam winner is never in the league of a 20 slam winner. Particularly one who can only win on grass (and for 2 years on decoturf).
russianskatingfan 1 year ago
@russianskatingfan Then you must feel that Margaret Court is, perhaps, the greatest of all time. She has the most.
Leomerya12 1 year ago
@Leomerya12 Court is possibly the greatest ever. I am not sure if I rank her over Graf and Navratilova though. Like I said it is not only about total slams, but when someone has as few as Venus (7) relative to ones with about 3 times as many (18-24) and hasnt even won 2 of the 4 slams then they cant be compared really.
russianskatingfan 1 year ago
@russianskatingfan Fair enough, for sure.
Leomerya12 1 year ago
@russianskatingfan Also, you're very civil. That's refreshing on Youtube.
Leomerya12 1 year ago
I must have been listening to a different telecast than the rest of you, because Martina was NOT comparing the women to the men; she was saying Henin is much better than the women she beats easily, just like Federer is much better than the men he beats easily.
She raised the point to counter those who say Henin dominated because her opponents weren't that good. Her point is, Henin's opponents really are good, it's just that Henin is a couple levels better.
theflylives1 3 years ago
Yes, you're right. But Navratilova is wrong, as usual. What the critics of the WTA were saying is that there isn't nearly the depth in the women's game, and they're right. By the way, for the people who are comparing the women to the men, the women would have trouble getting even a game off any of the top 200 guys. Oh, as for my qualifications, I'm a tennis pro who played the satellite circuit years ago.
nuttyguy9 3 years ago
I don't agree with Martina and simply believe that the ATP is SIGNIFICANTLY stronger and that the general difference in skill level between the men and the women is gaping...
Oxygene13 3 years ago
The Williams sisters lost to some guy ranked in the 300's or something who had just come back from having a meal or something? played practice sets with them and beat them with ease.
Please do not compare Serena's ground strokes with Novak, who has arguably the most consistently powerful forehand and backhand package in the whole tennis world.
Oxygene13 3 years ago
Wow! Mister Consistently Powerful Forehand and Backhand of The Tennis World Only Has One Grand Slam. I'm Sure That All The Best Players Only Have One Grand Slam. Novak Is Good, But Your Claim Is Melodramatic. Serena and Venus's Serves Clearly Show That They Are Up With The Guys In The Power Department So Don't Make Claims That There Strokes Are Poor Compared To Novak's.
GingerMouseHouse 3 years ago
Don't be silly. Novak has some of the best groundstrokes in the world for the men. No woman could seriously hope to compete in a competative match. There is also no 2 players who are the equivalents of Federer and Nadal on the WTA tour. The very top of the mens game right now is quite staggering. So many people would like tokid themselves and think that the womens tour is equally as strong, but quite simply, it isn't.
Oxygene13 3 years ago
I believe that Novak has some terrific strokes. I didn't say that woman were equally as good as the guys anyway, i was responding to the comments that were downgrading Serena. If you look at the stats, the William's sisters are averaging about a slowish serve compared to the mens tour, and there fast serves certainly reach the average! I think that Martina was exagerrating a bit here, But a few girls are up there, u know who. Hey, Novak may be better, but the Williams' sisters are up there.
GingerMouseHouse 3 years ago
Martina Navratilova was exagerrating on Henin but she did say the Williams sister the best players ever on the WTA, they may not have 24 singles slams but they changed the game, if it wasnt for them half the players wouldnt be half of what they are today.
lacheyrulez 2 years ago
there was a time when the williams siters beat the men, This year at the hopman cup majority of the rallys Serena out hit Novak, thats saying something.
lacheyrulez 3 years ago
The Williams sisters never beat the men. When the played against Karsten Braasch (203 in the world at the time), he beat each of them easily. You can look it up. As for the Hopman Cup, the women don't play against the men. And if you're talking about mixed doubles, it's a different game.
nuttyguy9 3 years ago
Actully yes they did if you paid any attention at all, after that they then played a guy in the 500's and won.
And no shit shirlock I live in australia so i know more about the hopman than u ever will, u go back and watch Serena against Djokovic in the rallys, serena out hit him 8/10 times, she served around 120 and bareley got passed 100 and that was when he was serving to fish.
lacheyrulez 3 years ago
I doubt you know more about these matters than I do, Sherlock (correct spelling, by the way), since I'm a tennis pro who once played the circuit. Oh, who would this man in the 500s be? Have a name, Sherlock? And even if that's true, the guy would have had to have choked big time. Also, women's tennis is pretty lame if you have to brag about her beating a player in the 500s. I'll be waiting for the name, though. But I won't hold my breath.
nuttyguy9 3 years ago
Is anyone taking this loser seriosly because i just laughed my ass off when i read the crap that you just backed-up
lacheyrulez 3 years ago
you got uber pwned as the nerds say, big time. you should give up now, you got told royally.
WikipediaRules 2 years ago
I got owned hah idoubt that very much retard.
U must be a nerd if u no there saying jeez anyone into sport clearly isnt a nerd but u how the fuck word anyone no that shit, go and die, no one would miss you.
lacheyrulez 2 years ago
Oh yeh and another thing if u did say u pllauyed on the tour, ok when ever that was like 500 years ago, that was then before the Williams sisters chnaged the game to what it is now, mens and womens game.
I play on ITF these days and its not grandpa style anymore loser
lacheyrulez 3 years ago
too true
Ntour 4 years ago
Thank you Martina!!!!! Tell it like it is.
JHTV1 4 years ago 5