We don't need more taxes. End the wars and save billions, end the war on drugs and view drug use as a medical illness rather than criminal act saving billions more on DEA funding an incarceration. Lower taxes and people can afford health care. That's how it should be.
/ at where they just think and care about humans mostly... you can say you can't justify torture even though some justify torture to the ones who don't deserve it all because of taste.... look up the video "Want to see a "humane" slaughterhouse vid? ***WARNING*** graphic images- unsuitable for minors" and tell me how you feel.
I used to think like you when I was younger then I am... now when I looked more into it I began to hate humans more because of what they have done to this world I could care less if they die.... or even if kids die lol they are just gonna grow up to become selfish killers when they get older... I hate Republicans because they are the most selfish they can't even help other humans so they could care less about the truly innocent animals... liberals are a step closer to the truth but are stopped/
rednecktrucker1969 - The past has shown that evolution of free thought and science will progress regardless of superstition. The ideas of treating others equally will only become more powerful than before. Knowledge is being generated and shared at an exponential rate. We, as a species are evolving as a society. People like us who put pressure on ourselves and on others to make things better is having an effect, only problem is that it is happening too slowly for us.
It has always bothered me that doing the right thing isnt a strong enough argument for public health care. Always thought this was a nation of heroes and good guys.. or I used to anyways.
I made this point to my father the other day when we were discussing our differing points of view on healthcare. His retort was :"We are all responsible for our own happyiness".
Everyone in this society who has earned money has earned it because they have been the recipient of the benefits of living in this society. As such, they are morally obligated to make such sacrifices as will allow other members of society to share in their good fortune. In order to be able to benefit from the opportunities inherent in this society, a person needs to be on good health. So far as possible, we all owe that to each other.
I have said it before and I am going to say it again, health care is a right not a privilege. For the same reasons we do not privatize police and fire services the same should go for health care. Those who come on here talk about government run health care would cause major problems, I do not buy it one bit. I work independently so in order for me to get insurance I would have to do it on a private level, however I am unable to because I have "pre-existing" conditions...
...Private health care for our public just makes no sense whatsoever. The Greed of some American truly sickens me. To those who do not want to pay tax dollars towards universal health care, the next time you here of a person dying because they could not get help before it was too late because they had no insurance. Just think, well at least I did not have to spend the few extra dollars in taxes that this would had cost me to prevent this to begin with.
@brokensoul70 The government is blocking competition by allowing the existing companies to put up so many barriers to entry. If it were free it would be cheap and everyone could afford it because it would be vastly more abundant the more supply you have to meet the demand the lower the price goes. It is giving up more freedom to just let the government take over like a crutch on an industry so large it is impossible for it to effectively manage it to any decent extent.
@brokensoul70 Healthcare is not a right. You have the ability to go and get healthcare.You have the right to eat, live and be free and happy as every human does. By designating it as a right you are insinuating the government should step in. (what it wants) Healthcare is a priviledge of advanced nations.The problem you are encountering is corporate control.The solution is to decorporatize it.Allow more people to go into business. This would drive the cost down to where everyone could afford it.
@brokensoul70 any study of the USSR shows what the result of socialized medicine is slow and barely decent service. After all the government is only human and made up of only a few individuals.
@Satanicallyfree, great timing!!! It only took six months for your response.
Funny how you only use the USSR (which is not even the USSR any more) as the preface to your argument. This is such a failure that anything else you have to say means nothing. You fail to mention Canada and the UK and how their health care programs leave ours in the dust. Our government has let this industry rape its citizens. Since this is a Democracy our government is made up of its citizens, not a few individuals.
Trucker, I've been rolling this issue around in my head forever. I can't decide. Are progressive taxes really fair? Part of me says no, because those people worked for it, and part of me says yes, for all the reasons you mentioned.
We're naturally social creatures, but we're also naturally self-interested. Perhaps taxing the "super rich" slightly more is a good balance between our social and self-interested nature.
Think of it this way, if there are not people to buy products then you wont make money from selling them either. If it was not for society for the rich to exploit, then they will not be rich. :)
I was thinking though. How is taxing to pay for health care different from taxing to feed society? Should food be an entitlement for everyone too? Then I realized: Everyone needs food AND healthcare; you can't live without either. BUT, if you keep everyone healthy, they can work for their own food. Your job will provide you with food, but it CAN'T give you, say, a cancer-free body.
Before governments developed fertilizers or shot up weather satellites to aid in agriculture or created global trade treaties and infrastructure food wasn't a the cheap and easily obtainable good that it is today. The reason why none of us have lived through a famine is exactly because governments have viewed a supply of plenty and cheap food as an entitlement in advanced nations.
"governments did it all?" and "that governments were farmers" are straw men.
Governments only harm free trade? Well you can easily find out what happened to countries throughout recorded history that did not use governmental resources to protect their trade ships on the sea, finance harbors and ship building know-how or create trade treaties with their neighbors. They are usually listed in the "Countries, ceased to exist" column of history books.
@mbruck77 Food was free. It's food if you wanted to eat you grew some or went out and killed something and ate it. What we have today is a few corporations who own large portions of land, using the cheapest methods possible to grow it or kill for it and deliver all the food to us packaged and or ready to eat. We no longer comprehend the process that took place putting that steak on the shelf. We ignore it. Lack of knowledge led to famine. That could still cause one.Governments aren't all knowing
@mbruck77 you mean those same fertilizers like DDT? that is now illegal? Government are made up of people a very small number of people as science teaches us the more people working together the more knowledge we gain. What's funny is that in 3rd world nations food is free. Only in advanced nations do you have to spend your hard earned money just to nourish your body.
@Satanicallyfree DDT is not a fertilizer. Food is not free if you have to invest significant amounts of time to collect, hunt or farm it. As a side note: hunter and gatherer societies are not sustainable as population counts increase (see mammoth, whale etc.).
There are few places where food is more expensive than in the Third World, where human resources are wasted on ineffective farming and are not available to advance society in science, research and information age technology.
Universal healtcare.... have been here a long time... In Finland I mean... (and several, MOST European countries) ... and all without Marxism and communism! :)=
yes, in a global market, but the common man does not see it really. The minimum wage has gone up in the U.S. to compensate. It is a broken system anyway, but that is another video altogether.
You say people can be heroes, you say they need to rise up and start acting in ways that help others, but you don't support that. You support a few people acting to force the rest of society to obey their laws, and you seek to influence those laws. Even if you want to dress it up as an "investment," you seek to force that 'investment' on everyone. Be a real hero, and try and help everyone, without taking their freedom in the process. Being a hero relies on choice, taxes are not a choice.
By using the internet, key parts of which were developed using tax money, you are an accomplice to this process which you describe as taking away freedoms from others.
I find this a weak arguement. Our medical advances have been due, in at least some part, to men like Josef Mengele, who did inhumane experimentation under Hitler. But just because I don't think we need to throw away current medical science doesn't mean that I support the actions of the past that lead up to current medical science.
It is nice to see that you are very principled about the "freedom" not to be taxed when it is your money but are very flexible when it comes to living off what was created by denying other people the freedom not to be taxed. Truly heroic.
What? I have worked in the Semiconductor industry before and made 100k per year and my views did not change because of my financial state. I have been steady on this for decades.
Can't change the past, and I don't reject the present due to past mistakes. All of our existence relies on the past being what it was, and the innocent blood that has been shed throughout history. But I don't we all need to kill ourselves because of it. I would love to see a society where everyone gets to allocate their own resources. But that doesn't mean I think we need to destroy every road in America and make all new ones. We can simply start to do the right thing, the past cannot be undone.
"we are greater than the sum of our parts, and we need to take care of each other."
I honestly do care about my community, I donate to charity, I warn people about things I perceive to be dangerous. I specifically try to support companies that I think are socially responsible. But, I don't support putting a gun to my neighbor's head to pay my medical bill if I get sick, but that's the difference between me and you, I guess. I don't think violence is the answer.
Well, that would be the people trying to get the government to tax society to achieve some of the things they desire. You can't really decide to not pay your taxes, they're enforced by violence. Generally I think you'll find charities are much better at actually getting things done anyway, I think they're the way to go.
So they're just going to walk up to your door and say "oh, hello, would you like to spend some time in a jail cell?"
No, they come to take ownership of your body. They come and they take your body and put it into a cube of concrete, along with dangerous people who may seek to harm you. Should you decide that you don't want to become their property, and to be put into such a dangerous situation, and attempt to defend your life, they can kill you.
You go to federal prison for tax evasion (significantly less dangerous than you're saying), and that's usually reserved for those who do it intentionally.
Come to think of it, I'm not sure I agree with jailing people for that. There are surely other ways to get the money.
You are a parasite. You use society's resources and refuse to contribute back. Infrastructure, security, research etc. etc. etc. you take it all for granted, you can't even part with the money that the government printed for you and that has the signature of a government paid bureaucrat on it.
Bullshit, it is not your labor alone. You use society's resources every day including for your work, you just don't want to pay your share of it.
The country of your dreams already exists, it is Somalia, no government pestering you with taxes or anything else. Good luck with your business there, I hope you don't rely on anything related to the last 200 years of human progress for your profit.
Calling progressive tax "extortion" is dishonest. Just because a person has more money doesn't automatically mean they contribute more to society. Buying a brand new Mercedes doesn't fund cancer research or pave roads.
Taxes are not extortion. It's part of living in society. This point has been made. Not sure how I can be more straightforward than that.
I don't agree with taxes being collected by violence.
Many people argue that rich people contribute more to society (spending, investing, etc.) and that's why they shouldn't be taxed more. Taxes are used to maintain roads, police services, etc. We NEED those things and can't afford to gamble on whether or not rich people choose to invest in them.
I agree, violence to collect money shouldn't even be an option. So do something about that. Since you don't even think taxes should exist, you won't have any suggestions for an alternative method though.
And anyway, just because the methods of collection (in extreme cases only, I might add) are crude doesn't mean taxes are wrong.
If they're not collected by violence, then they're not "taxes." I can go up to a store and say "give me the money or else." That's what the government does, just because some people just hand it over, doesn't mean the entire thing is supported and enforced with violence and force. What you're saying is that if a rape victim didn't actually fight back, then the rapist wasn't using violence, because she went along with it.
I'm all for voluntary association, I think most of the good things in this world come from the voluntary association of people. If you decide that you need a leader, and want someone to allocate some/all of our resources for you, then go for it. But I don't see where a person can get off asking their leaders to allocate other people's resources.
If you don't want a government and leaders who help allocate resources, then frankly you don't belong here.
I can think of one group off hand that is tax exempt: the amish. They are self-sufficient recluses and they file papers that say they will never use medicare.
Look, society decided at some point that the fact that some people are COMPLETELY self-interested (as opposed to partly socially interested) isn't a good enough reason not to have taxes.
"If you don't want a government and leaders who help allocate resources, then frankly you don't belong here."
I might be willing to consider to have a leader help allocate some of my resources, but I think I do a pretty good job of it already. If there was anyone out there doing a particularly good job of it, I'd be for it. But I'm not really a big fan of George Obama's policies of using the money they get to allocate to start wars and spill innocent blood, thanks.
George Obama? It wasn't Obama's plan to send them. The fact that wars happen is no reason to not pay taxes. If you don't want to pay for wars, do something about the outrageous military budget. The fact that some people abuse their power doesn't mean taxes are bad.
Obama is pro-war, as we can easily see by his actions in office. Do something about the outrageous military budget? I'm not the one who gets to decide what is done with my tax money, if I was then it wouldn't be tax money.
How do you even figure Obama is "pro-war" when he's opposed the war from the beginning?
You CAN do something about it by electing people who will change it, and telling your representatives to do something about it.
The way you talk, the government is corrupted beyond repair. The world hasn't collapsed yet, has it? In a democracy, the people you disagree with only get their say for a while. That's how it works.
You realize you're equating taxes with rape, don't you?
You think taxes are a form of violence? I don't see how. I believe there is a such thing as a fair tax. Prying it from your fingers by force and throwing you in jail if you honestly can't pay is wrong, but taxes themselves aren't.
I pay taxes, not because they're voluntary, but because I don't want to be made into property and thrown into jail. I don't pay taxes because I think government does a good job supporting people in my community or in society, I donate money to charities to do those things. If taxes were voluntary, we'd see pockets of people, and communities, that opt-out of it. We don't, because they become imprisoned.
@samOFblorx They're collected via a threat. Do you think anyone would give away their hard earned cash or allow the government to steal out of their paychecks for people who don't work if they didn't feel some sort of compulsion? It's violence if you refuse the IRS they will try and take you in like you're some kind of criminal if you further refuse you die or do prison time.
@samOFblorx no it's not. All taxes are wrong. Stealing is wrong. That's what it is. You have to pay it. You can decieve yourself all you want but in an era when man is supposed to be advancing his intellect and coming together people still support the giving of funds to other men for no reason other than they hold said position. We feed our funds to the small few hundred people in control. Do they really need all of that money?
@samOFblorx And with no supervision doesn't greed step in? This is what corrupts governments taxation. It's no different than the king collecting tribute for his ability to rule and "protect" the people. Why should so few be so rich? All that happens is the majority of the wealth is kept and the rest is put into things that we used to or could do ourselves and since there is no incentive to do a good job generally the services are poor.
@MotionFur all taxation is extortion. Funds collected under a condition of forcing you to make a false choice is theft. No different than someone robbing you on the street. Yeah you can say no but they'll kill you. Don't pay your taxes and resist enough and this happens as well.
I have no idea how that claim makes sense or is even related to my statement. Society's resources aren't just goods, it is knowledge generated by tax money, it is politics that facilitate trade or guarantee safety and that are paid for with tax money, it is clean air guaranteed by environmental supervision etc.
And you are still whining about how you owe the government nothing even while typing characters in a charset created by a government institute.
@mbruck77 politics engages trade lol. What a warped philosophy. I thought it was people placing value in something someone else has while other said individual does the same. I've traded many things in my lifetime it wasn't politics that made my decision for me. What Guarantees safety is the innate human want of protection for our assets. And tax money does not generate any knowledge all it does is make the government richer at our expense you really think they put all of that money back?
@Satanicallyfree Could you explain where in my responses I described a "philosophy" and where I claimed that someone makes trade decisions for you. Your claim that tax money does not generate knowledge is grotesquely stupid when made on the Internet, which was developed with US tax money and on the World Wide Web, which was developed by European tax money.
@mbruck77 ownership is nothing more than a uniform agreement made for the benefit of all members of said group or society. Last I checked the Government had no problem seizing my assets if I didn't pay my taxes. (money collected under a condition of Duress)
Im against federal income tax, fiat money, and the federal reserve. There are better ways to go about things than giving 1/3 to 1/2 of your money to do things like buy $5000 toilet seat covers and pay bonuses to AIG execs that ran the company in the ground
Oh that is such a cop-out. We can whine about AIG execs, but it is pretty apparent they have bought the people they need. Short of shooting them, there doesn't appear to be a lot we can do. And we started the war in Iraq, and Afgh., it is up to us to finish it. So, why is a single payer plan so terrible, again? Why do we actually need insurance companies? What value do they provide? Most other countries get by fine without them. Why do we need to pay for their profits?
look at where your federal income tax goes. it is mostly going to pay back debt to the bogus "federal reserve" bank for money that was borrowed to start unnecessary wars. and now it is going to bail out wall street for fucking up.
Is it going to help people? not really; social security is a ponzi scheme.
roads and police and firemen and most civil services are paid by other taxes besides federal income tax.
so I am not in favor of squeezing people even more.
I'm not necessarily opposed to the concept of nationalized healthcare. I'm just skeptical of our government's ability to not fuck things worse up given their long history of doing so. lets get rid of social security to pay for it instead of raising taxes and then i'd be in favor.
How about we add a very high tax on everyone in the financial services sector since they just fucked us all, or should have been able to see it coming and worked with the gvt to stop the greedy little people from doing what they did. AND these little shitbirds whine and whine about taxes instead of getting decent financial securities regulations passed. Anyone in this industry should hang their head in shame.
Getting rid of social security is not a good solution.
@rednecktrucker1969 not really. We are no different than other animals trying to use what they have to survive. The earth is not that fragile. According to the geologic record it's been through way more than anything we have done. 95% of all life went extinct at one point in time billions of years ago. Life is ever changing and evolving.
This level of very petty greed, this fear that someone else will benefit from you has a strangle hold on the thinking of many, many Americans. But it is completely irrational.
Unless you have a good combination of health insurance policies it is very likely that eventually you will lose your possessions and be in massive debt due to one major illness. A major illness you are sure to have if you don't get killed by something else first.
Greed is part of the survival instinct, everything is related. Greed helps us insure that we have enough food and supplies for the future. We can and in fact need to overcome it in our modern age of plenty in developed nations.
Our use of the terminology is different but we're on the same page.
There is no excuse for a country like the USA having a higher infant mortality rate than Mexico. Private medicine is the reason for it but it's no excuse.
In social animals the instinct for self preservation involves uniting with the group in the interest of self preservation. That is the nature of social animals and why they are successful.
I think it is a psychological aberration to put yourself in danger in order to avoid group cooperation.
We don't need more taxes. End the wars and save billions, end the war on drugs and view drug use as a medical illness rather than criminal act saving billions more on DEA funding an incarceration. Lower taxes and people can afford health care. That's how it should be.
BlindMaphisto 1 year ago
he kinda looks like steve austin, or that other guy who plays in movies
XerxusExanju 1 year ago
/ at where they just think and care about humans mostly... you can say you can't justify torture even though some justify torture to the ones who don't deserve it all because of taste.... look up the video "Want to see a "humane" slaughterhouse vid? ***WARNING*** graphic images- unsuitable for minors" and tell me how you feel.
grayfox189 2 years ago
I used to think like you when I was younger then I am... now when I looked more into it I began to hate humans more because of what they have done to this world I could care less if they die.... or even if kids die lol they are just gonna grow up to become selfish killers when they get older... I hate Republicans because they are the most selfish they can't even help other humans so they could care less about the truly innocent animals... liberals are a step closer to the truth but are stopped/
grayfox189 2 years ago
bravo dude
ph4rcyd3r 2 years ago
You rock. everybody needs health care. Healthy people are more productive, unhealthy people become a burden on their families, or society, or both.
Let those who can offord to pay pay. If they don't like it they can leave the country.
imaginethereisnogod 2 years ago
rednecktrucker1969 - The past has shown that evolution of free thought and science will progress regardless of superstition. The ideas of treating others equally will only become more powerful than before. Knowledge is being generated and shared at an exponential rate. We, as a species are evolving as a society. People like us who put pressure on ourselves and on others to make things better is having an effect, only problem is that it is happening too slowly for us.
stevenweir76 2 years ago
It has always bothered me that doing the right thing isnt a strong enough argument for public health care. Always thought this was a nation of heroes and good guys.. or I used to anyways.
onigojira 2 years ago
healthcare is in my opinion an essential part of "the pursuit of happiness"
drakesCorner 2 years ago 2
I made this point to my father the other day when we were discussing our differing points of view on healthcare. His retort was :"We are all responsible for our own happyiness".
JebusBad 2 years ago
As well as "life", and arguably, "liberty".
samsroomie 2 years ago
I knew a guy who used to whine about Public Health - until he needed three bypasses he could not have afforded.
European and Canadian experiences show that Public Health is cheaper for the community than private insurance.
Best wishes to US citizens!
Kattarina98 2 years ago 2
Good point about the healthier people = more working
gingergreek 2 years ago
I have no problem paying a little more in taxes... I just want the programs to be effective if I do.
kirke420 2 years ago
Well you could demand the the government takes some of it's "bombs and guns" dough and put it into the health care.
Which is more important infrastructure to the nation, the care of the sick or the expansion and maintenance of the empire?
slipcurve 2 years ago
Empire. Easy answer :P
gingergreek 2 years ago
Well why can't they take UH out of the overblown DOD budget. I don't see how raising taxes helps anything
enigmatically 2 years ago
lol, the powers that be would never alow that to happen.
JebusBad 2 years ago
Oh I know that. They could fund it from Social Security and get rid of that program.
But being logical is never the solution in politics. No, it is what helps the elite that is the deciding factor for everything.
Basically the way the world is set up right now, it's get rich or get lucky and never get sick. because otherwise you're screwed.
I'm opting for door #1 myself.
enigmatically 2 years ago
Everyone in this society who has earned money has earned it because they have been the recipient of the benefits of living in this society. As such, they are morally obligated to make such sacrifices as will allow other members of society to share in their good fortune. In order to be able to benefit from the opportunities inherent in this society, a person needs to be on good health. So far as possible, we all owe that to each other.
SSanf 2 years ago
Humans are strange animals... always so bent on self destruction.
PinkProgram 2 years ago
Beautiful speech.
ghostofdayinperson 2 years ago
Very eloquently put, people seem to be more concerned with their pocketbooks than with doing what is right for society.
POZITIVIZT 2 years ago
@POZITIVIZT not really, people sort of need the society it's super rich who have so much wealth that they don't care and buy off the government.
Satanicallyfree 2 years ago
Government health care does not work (just look at the ponzi scheme that is medicare).
We need a truly free market insurance system, where individuals purchase their own insurance, and don't need to go through their employer.
boxant 2 years ago
I have said it before and I am going to say it again, health care is a right not a privilege. For the same reasons we do not privatize police and fire services the same should go for health care. Those who come on here talk about government run health care would cause major problems, I do not buy it one bit. I work independently so in order for me to get insurance I would have to do it on a private level, however I am unable to because I have "pre-existing" conditions...
brokensoul70 2 years ago
...Private health care for our public just makes no sense whatsoever. The Greed of some American truly sickens me. To those who do not want to pay tax dollars towards universal health care, the next time you here of a person dying because they could not get help before it was too late because they had no insurance. Just think, well at least I did not have to spend the few extra dollars in taxes that this would had cost me to prevent this to begin with.
brokensoul70 2 years ago
@brokensoul70 The government is blocking competition by allowing the existing companies to put up so many barriers to entry. If it were free it would be cheap and everyone could afford it because it would be vastly more abundant the more supply you have to meet the demand the lower the price goes. It is giving up more freedom to just let the government take over like a crutch on an industry so large it is impossible for it to effectively manage it to any decent extent.
Satanicallyfree 2 years ago
@brokensoul70 Healthcare is not a right. You have the ability to go and get healthcare.You have the right to eat, live and be free and happy as every human does. By designating it as a right you are insinuating the government should step in. (what it wants) Healthcare is a priviledge of advanced nations.The problem you are encountering is corporate control.The solution is to decorporatize it.Allow more people to go into business. This would drive the cost down to where everyone could afford it.
Satanicallyfree 2 years ago
@brokensoul70 any study of the USSR shows what the result of socialized medicine is slow and barely decent service. After all the government is only human and made up of only a few individuals.
Satanicallyfree 2 years ago
@Satanicallyfree, great timing!!! It only took six months for your response.
Funny how you only use the USSR (which is not even the USSR any more) as the preface to your argument. This is such a failure that anything else you have to say means nothing. You fail to mention Canada and the UK and how their health care programs leave ours in the dust. Our government has let this industry rape its citizens. Since this is a Democracy our government is made up of its citizens, not a few individuals.
brokensoul70 2 years ago
Trucker, I've been rolling this issue around in my head forever. I can't decide. Are progressive taxes really fair? Part of me says no, because those people worked for it, and part of me says yes, for all the reasons you mentioned.
We're naturally social creatures, but we're also naturally self-interested. Perhaps taxing the "super rich" slightly more is a good balance between our social and self-interested nature.
samOFblorx 2 years ago
Think of it this way, if there are not people to buy products then you wont make money from selling them either. If it was not for society for the rich to exploit, then they will not be rich. :)
rednecktrucker1969 2 years ago
Lol, I guess that's true.
I was thinking though. How is taxing to pay for health care different from taxing to feed society? Should food be an entitlement for everyone too? Then I realized: Everyone needs food AND healthcare; you can't live without either. BUT, if you keep everyone healthy, they can work for their own food. Your job will provide you with food, but it CAN'T give you, say, a cancer-free body.
samOFblorx 2 years ago
very good point.
rednecktrucker1969 2 years ago
Before governments developed fertilizers or shot up weather satellites to aid in agriculture or created global trade treaties and infrastructure food wasn't a the cheap and easily obtainable good that it is today. The reason why none of us have lived through a famine is exactly because governments have viewed a supply of plenty and cheap food as an entitlement in advanced nations.
mbruck77 2 years ago
I suppose you're right. I didn't think of it like that. Good point.
samOFblorx 2 years ago
Are you sure about that dude? Where did you get that information?
It's nothing to do with free global trade, then? It really wasn't through business and entrepreneurship, governments did it all?
Government treatise only ever seem to harm free trade and competition.
didn't know that governments were farmers as well.
coltrane1966 2 years ago
"governments did it all?" and "that governments were farmers" are straw men.
Governments only harm free trade? Well you can easily find out what happened to countries throughout recorded history that did not use governmental resources to protect their trade ships on the sea, finance harbors and ship building know-how or create trade treaties with their neighbors. They are usually listed in the "Countries, ceased to exist" column of history books.
mbruck77 2 years ago
No they are not straw men, they are the basics of what you say.
Your taking very much for granted, governments do not produce anything at all, what resources they have are taken from others.
trade treaties only stifle competition, which makes things more expensive than ever (there's actually one in the news now).
If it's government navy or merchant navy, it's funded by people's productivity.
What Countries are you referring to?
coltrane1966 2 years ago
@mbruck77 Food was free. It's food if you wanted to eat you grew some or went out and killed something and ate it. What we have today is a few corporations who own large portions of land, using the cheapest methods possible to grow it or kill for it and deliver all the food to us packaged and or ready to eat. We no longer comprehend the process that took place putting that steak on the shelf. We ignore it. Lack of knowledge led to famine. That could still cause one.Governments aren't all knowing
Satanicallyfree 2 years ago
As we gain more knowledge and understand life the causation of famines becomes clear. It's all about information and learning.
Satanicallyfree 2 years ago
@mbruck77 you mean those same fertilizers like DDT? that is now illegal? Government are made up of people a very small number of people as science teaches us the more people working together the more knowledge we gain. What's funny is that in 3rd world nations food is free. Only in advanced nations do you have to spend your hard earned money just to nourish your body.
Satanicallyfree 2 years ago
@Satanicallyfree DDT is not a fertilizer. Food is not free if you have to invest significant amounts of time to collect, hunt or farm it. As a side note: hunter and gatherer societies are not sustainable as population counts increase (see mammoth, whale etc.).
There are few places where food is more expensive than in the Third World, where human resources are wasted on ineffective farming and are not available to advance society in science, research and information age technology.
mbruck77 2 years ago
Universal healtcare.... have been here a long time... In Finland I mean... (and several, MOST European countries) ... and all without Marxism and communism! :)=
I hope you do manage it... soon...
ijaju 2 years ago
Agreed, thanks for your views :)
aflunky 2 years ago
well.. with less people more people have more money therefore more to spent.
freethink15 2 years ago
naw, we can always print more, just ask the federal reserve.
rednecktrucker1969 2 years ago
if more money is printed dosent it loose value or or prices for goods go up ?? or something?
freethink15 2 years ago
yes, in a global market, but the common man does not see it really. The minimum wage has gone up in the U.S. to compensate. It is a broken system anyway, but that is another video altogether.
rednecktrucker1969 2 years ago
You say people can be heroes, you say they need to rise up and start acting in ways that help others, but you don't support that. You support a few people acting to force the rest of society to obey their laws, and you seek to influence those laws. Even if you want to dress it up as an "investment," you seek to force that 'investment' on everyone. Be a real hero, and try and help everyone, without taking their freedom in the process. Being a hero relies on choice, taxes are not a choice.
MotionFur 2 years ago
By using the internet, key parts of which were developed using tax money, you are an accomplice to this process which you describe as taking away freedoms from others.
mbruck77 2 years ago
I find this a weak arguement. Our medical advances have been due, in at least some part, to men like Josef Mengele, who did inhumane experimentation under Hitler. But just because I don't think we need to throw away current medical science doesn't mean that I support the actions of the past that lead up to current medical science.
MotionFur 2 years ago
It is nice to see that you are very principled about the "freedom" not to be taxed when it is your money but are very flexible when it comes to living off what was created by denying other people the freedom not to be taxed. Truly heroic.
mbruck77 2 years ago
What? I have worked in the Semiconductor industry before and made 100k per year and my views did not change because of my financial state. I have been steady on this for decades.
rednecktrucker1969 2 years ago
red, my reply was to MF.
mbruck77 2 years ago
Can't change the past, and I don't reject the present due to past mistakes. All of our existence relies on the past being what it was, and the innocent blood that has been shed throughout history. But I don't we all need to kill ourselves because of it. I would love to see a society where everyone gets to allocate their own resources. But that doesn't mean I think we need to destroy every road in America and make all new ones. We can simply start to do the right thing, the past cannot be undone.
MotionFur 2 years ago
good point, now give me your education, police, fire, parks and recreation facilities, and roads back.
See this issue is about being part of a community, a society, we are greater than the sum of our parts, and we need to take care of each other.
rednecktrucker1969 2 years ago
"we are greater than the sum of our parts, and we need to take care of each other."
I honestly do care about my community, I donate to charity, I warn people about things I perceive to be dangerous. I specifically try to support companies that I think are socially responsible. But, I don't support putting a gun to my neighbor's head to pay my medical bill if I get sick, but that's the difference between me and you, I guess. I don't think violence is the answer.
MotionFur 2 years ago
What the hell? Who's talking about putting a gun to someone's head?
samOFblorx 2 years ago
Well, that would be the people trying to get the government to tax society to achieve some of the things they desire. You can't really decide to not pay your taxes, they're enforced by violence. Generally I think you'll find charities are much better at actually getting things done anyway, I think they're the way to go.
MotionFur 2 years ago
I don't think anyone's going to put a gun to someone's head for not paying their taxes.
I know you can be jailed for tax evasion, which makes sense I think. You're consuming society's resources without helping to maintain them.
samOFblorx 2 years ago
So they're just going to walk up to your door and say "oh, hello, would you like to spend some time in a jail cell?"
No, they come to take ownership of your body. They come and they take your body and put it into a cube of concrete, along with dangerous people who may seek to harm you. Should you decide that you don't want to become their property, and to be put into such a dangerous situation, and attempt to defend your life, they can kill you.
MotionFur 2 years ago
You go to federal prison for tax evasion (significantly less dangerous than you're saying), and that's usually reserved for those who do it intentionally.
Come to think of it, I'm not sure I agree with jailing people for that. There are surely other ways to get the money.
samOFblorx 2 years ago
You are a parasite. You use society's resources and refuse to contribute back. Infrastructure, security, research etc. etc. etc. you take it all for granted, you can't even part with the money that the government printed for you and that has the signature of a government paid bureaucrat on it.
mbruck77 2 years ago
"You are a parasite."
You claim the fruit of another person's labor is your own. People should be forced to act in ways that you deem okay. The only parasite is you.
MotionFur 2 years ago
Bullshit, it is not your labor alone. You use society's resources every day including for your work, you just don't want to pay your share of it.
The country of your dreams already exists, it is Somalia, no government pestering you with taxes or anything else. Good luck with your business there, I hope you don't rely on anything related to the last 200 years of human progress for your profit.
mbruck77 2 years ago 2
"You use society's resources every day including"
Society can not own anything, only individuals in society.
"you just don't want to pay your share of it."
You just think extortion is a good way of getting things done, I don't.
MotionFur 2 years ago
Calling progressive tax "extortion" is dishonest. Just because a person has more money doesn't automatically mean they contribute more to society. Buying a brand new Mercedes doesn't fund cancer research or pave roads.
samOFblorx 2 years ago
"Calling progressive tax "extortion" is dishonest."
Tax is extortion, taxes are collected by force. Not sure how I can be more straight forward then that.
"Just because a person has more money doesn't automatically mean they contribute more to society."
You may be correct, depending on how you define "contribute." But I don't see your point here.
MotionFur 2 years ago
Taxes are not extortion. It's part of living in society. This point has been made. Not sure how I can be more straightforward than that.
I don't agree with taxes being collected by violence.
Many people argue that rich people contribute more to society (spending, investing, etc.) and that's why they shouldn't be taxed more. Taxes are used to maintain roads, police services, etc. We NEED those things and can't afford to gamble on whether or not rich people choose to invest in them.
samOFblorx 2 years ago
"I don't agree with taxes being collected by violence."
Well, that's how they're collected.
MotionFur 2 years ago
Most of the time, no violence is used. There's no pandemic of gun-toting tax collectors.
samOFblorx 2 years ago
Just because most people submit without altercation doesn't mean that it's not collected by violence.
MotionFur 2 years ago
Actually, that's exactly what it means.
I agree, violence to collect money shouldn't even be an option. So do something about that. Since you don't even think taxes should exist, you won't have any suggestions for an alternative method though.
And anyway, just because the methods of collection (in extreme cases only, I might add) are crude doesn't mean taxes are wrong.
samOFblorx 2 years ago
If they're not collected by violence, then they're not "taxes." I can go up to a store and say "give me the money or else." That's what the government does, just because some people just hand it over, doesn't mean the entire thing is supported and enforced with violence and force. What you're saying is that if a rape victim didn't actually fight back, then the rapist wasn't using violence, because she went along with it.
MotionFur 2 years ago
I'm all for voluntary association, I think most of the good things in this world come from the voluntary association of people. If you decide that you need a leader, and want someone to allocate some/all of our resources for you, then go for it. But I don't see where a person can get off asking their leaders to allocate other people's resources.
MotionFur 2 years ago
If you don't want a government and leaders who help allocate resources, then frankly you don't belong here.
I can think of one group off hand that is tax exempt: the amish. They are self-sufficient recluses and they file papers that say they will never use medicare.
Look, society decided at some point that the fact that some people are COMPLETELY self-interested (as opposed to partly socially interested) isn't a good enough reason not to have taxes.
samOFblorx 2 years ago
"If you don't want a government and leaders who help allocate resources, then frankly you don't belong here."
I might be willing to consider to have a leader help allocate some of my resources, but I think I do a pretty good job of it already. If there was anyone out there doing a particularly good job of it, I'd be for it. But I'm not really a big fan of George Obama's policies of using the money they get to allocate to start wars and spill innocent blood, thanks.
MotionFur 2 years ago
George Obama? It wasn't Obama's plan to send them. The fact that wars happen is no reason to not pay taxes. If you don't want to pay for wars, do something about the outrageous military budget. The fact that some people abuse their power doesn't mean taxes are bad.
samOFblorx 2 years ago
Obama is pro-war, as we can easily see by his actions in office. Do something about the outrageous military budget? I'm not the one who gets to decide what is done with my tax money, if I was then it wouldn't be tax money.
MotionFur 2 years ago
How do you even figure Obama is "pro-war" when he's opposed the war from the beginning?
You CAN do something about it by electing people who will change it, and telling your representatives to do something about it.
The way you talk, the government is corrupted beyond repair. The world hasn't collapsed yet, has it? In a democracy, the people you disagree with only get their say for a while. That's how it works.
samOFblorx 2 years ago
You realize you're equating taxes with rape, don't you?
You think taxes are a form of violence? I don't see how. I believe there is a such thing as a fair tax. Prying it from your fingers by force and throwing you in jail if you honestly can't pay is wrong, but taxes themselves aren't.
samOFblorx 2 years ago
I pay taxes, not because they're voluntary, but because I don't want to be made into property and thrown into jail. I don't pay taxes because I think government does a good job supporting people in my community or in society, I donate money to charities to do those things. If taxes were voluntary, we'd see pockets of people, and communities, that opt-out of it. We don't, because they become imprisoned.
MotionFur 2 years ago
@MotionFur that's exactly right like saying a robber who didn't fire his gun was somehow morally above the one who did.
Satanicallyfree 2 years ago
@samOFblorx They're collected via a threat. Do you think anyone would give away their hard earned cash or allow the government to steal out of their paychecks for people who don't work if they didn't feel some sort of compulsion? It's violence if you refuse the IRS they will try and take you in like you're some kind of criminal if you further refuse you die or do prison time.
Satanicallyfree 2 years ago
@samOFblorx no it's not. All taxes are wrong. Stealing is wrong. That's what it is. You have to pay it. You can decieve yourself all you want but in an era when man is supposed to be advancing his intellect and coming together people still support the giving of funds to other men for no reason other than they hold said position. We feed our funds to the small few hundred people in control. Do they really need all of that money?
Satanicallyfree 2 years ago
@samOFblorx And with no supervision doesn't greed step in? This is what corrupts governments taxation. It's no different than the king collecting tribute for his ability to rule and "protect" the people. Why should so few be so rich? All that happens is the majority of the wealth is kept and the rest is put into things that we used to or could do ourselves and since there is no incentive to do a good job generally the services are poor.
Satanicallyfree 2 years ago
@samOFblorx (slow mail, bad schooling, long waiting lines for medicine by people who are underpaid and don't care etc)
Satanicallyfree 2 years ago
@MotionFur all taxation is extortion. Funds collected under a condition of forcing you to make a false choice is theft. No different than someone robbing you on the street. Yeah you can say no but they'll kill you. Don't pay your taxes and resist enough and this happens as well.
Satanicallyfree 2 years ago
"Society can not own anything"
I have no idea how that claim makes sense or is even related to my statement. Society's resources aren't just goods, it is knowledge generated by tax money, it is politics that facilitate trade or guarantee safety and that are paid for with tax money, it is clean air guaranteed by environmental supervision etc.
And you are still whining about how you owe the government nothing even while typing characters in a charset created by a government institute.
mbruck77 2 years ago
@mbruck77 politics engages trade lol. What a warped philosophy. I thought it was people placing value in something someone else has while other said individual does the same. I've traded many things in my lifetime it wasn't politics that made my decision for me. What Guarantees safety is the innate human want of protection for our assets. And tax money does not generate any knowledge all it does is make the government richer at our expense you really think they put all of that money back?
Satanicallyfree 2 years ago
@Satanicallyfree Could you explain where in my responses I described a "philosophy" and where I claimed that someone makes trade decisions for you. Your claim that tax money does not generate knowledge is grotesquely stupid when made on the Internet, which was developed with US tax money and on the World Wide Web, which was developed by European tax money.
mbruck77 2 years ago
@mbruck77 ownership is nothing more than a uniform agreement made for the benefit of all members of said group or society. Last I checked the Government had no problem seizing my assets if I didn't pay my taxes. (money collected under a condition of Duress)
Satanicallyfree 2 years ago
we are all parasites, look at the state of our planet.:)
rednecktrucker1969 2 years ago
Im against federal income tax, fiat money, and the federal reserve. There are better ways to go about things than giving 1/3 to 1/2 of your money to do things like buy $5000 toilet seat covers and pay bonuses to AIG execs that ran the company in the ground
enigmatically 2 years ago
Oh that is such a cop-out. We can whine about AIG execs, but it is pretty apparent they have bought the people they need. Short of shooting them, there doesn't appear to be a lot we can do. And we started the war in Iraq, and Afgh., it is up to us to finish it. So, why is a single payer plan so terrible, again? Why do we actually need insurance companies? What value do they provide? Most other countries get by fine without them. Why do we need to pay for their profits?
mikeporterinmd 2 years ago
That was supposed to be a reply enigmatically, but Youtube seems to have misfiled the comment.
mikeporterinmd 2 years ago
look at where your federal income tax goes. it is mostly going to pay back debt to the bogus "federal reserve" bank for money that was borrowed to start unnecessary wars. and now it is going to bail out wall street for fucking up.
Is it going to help people? not really; social security is a ponzi scheme.
roads and police and firemen and most civil services are paid by other taxes besides federal income tax.
so I am not in favor of squeezing people even more.
enigmatically 2 years ago
I'm not necessarily opposed to the concept of nationalized healthcare. I'm just skeptical of our government's ability to not fuck things worse up given their long history of doing so. lets get rid of social security to pay for it instead of raising taxes and then i'd be in favor.
enigmatically 2 years ago
How about we add a very high tax on everyone in the financial services sector since they just fucked us all, or should have been able to see it coming and worked with the gvt to stop the greedy little people from doing what they did. AND these little shitbirds whine and whine about taxes instead of getting decent financial securities regulations passed. Anyone in this industry should hang their head in shame.
Getting rid of social security is not a good solution.
mikeporterinmd 2 years ago
@rednecktrucker1969 not really. We are no different than other animals trying to use what they have to survive. The earth is not that fragile. According to the geologic record it's been through way more than anything we have done. 95% of all life went extinct at one point in time billions of years ago. Life is ever changing and evolving.
Satanicallyfree 2 years ago
Very well done, my friend!
-"Mo"
TheAwedCouple 2 years ago
Thanks so kindly, it means a lot from you! :)
rednecktrucker1969 2 years ago
This level of very petty greed, this fear that someone else will benefit from you has a strangle hold on the thinking of many, many Americans. But it is completely irrational.
Unless you have a good combination of health insurance policies it is very likely that eventually you will lose your possessions and be in massive debt due to one major illness. A major illness you are sure to have if you don't get killed by something else first.
It is yourselves that you are refusing to help.
macnutz 2 years ago
Sorry I disagree, we are not programmed geneticaly to not care. The sole blame for that is in the cultures.
That we leave important decisions that affects us all to psychopathic pwer hungry fucks.
Otherwise a great speech.
TheGuardian2100 2 years ago
He didnt say that we were built not to care he said we were built with a survival instinct to presurve our own life.
Beechmiester90 2 years ago
Yeah. But it could be understood as if teh survival instinct overrides us in the everyday life. It does not. Greed does.
TheGuardian2100 2 years ago
Greed is part of the survival instinct, everything is related. Greed helps us insure that we have enough food and supplies for the future. We can and in fact need to overcome it in our modern age of plenty in developed nations.
rednecktrucker1969 2 years ago
The key is balance. To think about what we ' NEED ' rather than what we ' THINK WE NEED '.
shelley0809 2 years ago
Our use of the terminology is different but we're on the same page.
There is no excuse for a country like the USA having a higher infant mortality rate than Mexico. Private medicine is the reason for it but it's no excuse.
macnutz 2 years ago
In social animals the instinct for self preservation involves uniting with the group in the interest of self preservation. That is the nature of social animals and why they are successful.
I think it is a psychological aberration to put yourself in danger in order to avoid group cooperation.
macnutz 2 years ago
I meant that we have a survival instinct that often overrides our brains, and the call is to recognize this and adapt, evolve and overcome. :)
rednecktrucker1969 2 years ago
:-) macnutz and rednecktrucker :) I am ALL smiles for you guys !
TheGuardian2100 2 years ago
as we are for you too! :)
rednecktrucker1969 2 years ago
The man's a fucken poet! *wipes tear*
azaz129 2 years ago
I agree with you. The speech was a little over the top. It's all good though.
1000jrb 2 years ago
sometimes you gotta shake the tree a bit. :)
rednecktrucker1969 2 years ago