not only brain memory, but one could also talk of body and cellular memory. a lot of people say that body and cellular memory is impossible but i don't. interesting topic.
Studies have been done that show a chemical released while under pain actually helps your memory. I'll bet many of the vivid memories people have from their childhood are ones of pain. Nature has to figure out a way to make sure you don't touch the stove twice. I would be shocked to know other animals don't use this same way to "train" themselves. That being said, abuse is probably something you wouldn't forget then.
I admire you Penn, but I hope you're not saying that animals don't remember pain. Because that is bullsh!t, all you have to do is look at an abused dog.
I think this is an utterly half-baked analysis. You should actually read Peter Singer, and then comment upon his positions. Then you wouldn't make the fatuous claim that animal rights would necessitate having animals follow laws they cannot understand. Is a retarded human being fit to be dissected and tortured at our whim because they don't comprehend the law? you should think through a topic a bit, and then bloviate, for better results.
wild animals should have rights. When they didn't we started destroying a shit ton of species and right now we're destroying shit tons more.
Sure you can defend the fact that there have been billions of species that went extinct throughout time But when has it been a result of ONE species?
We have the capability to nurture our planet and make it better, instead we're choosing to take advantage of every resource there is without even fully understanding all of them. We must preserve the planet!
You cry out that animals need rights but you find it amusing, the thought of animals actually having rights, and you show no effort to protect their rights. Damn you must really care about animal rights.
I agree I would also point out that just because someone doesn't conscientiously remember doesn't mean that they don't subconsciously remember, or that there aren't other permanent mental effects.
The entire evolutionary purpose of pain is to train the creature to avoid damage to itself. If animals percieved pain as if under the effects of this drug, it wouldn't serve that purpose, and they wouldn't experience it at all.
Your phrase near the end - "something smarter people should think about" - got me thinking about this question:
Do smart people legitimately have greater moral weight (I won't say worth, but "heft") than stupid people, because of their enhanced ability to anticipate and remember pain?
Theres a drug hypertension drug called propranolol. It blocks the reception of adrenaline in your brain. A study was done with a woman who had post- traumatic stress disorder, and upon taking the drug and remembering her accident, she was able to see that it was only her memory that was reconstructing this accident , and making it much worse than it was in reality. So there you go Penn, you can erase your past pain, because according to the study, you just wont care that much about it anymore
if you accidentally stomp on your dog he will fear the next time you walk around him, ox, horses circus animals are trained by pain and fear of it-this is basically a stupid argument
So we have the right to inflict pain on someone or something else because they won't remember? I wouldn't want someone making that choice for me!! And this is his personal preferences.. you can't push them on others that might not think that the in the moment excruciating pain was not so bad. Just like his show.. this is Bullshit.
you need to listen fool he wasnt saying its ok to make that choice for someone he was talking about pain and the effects of it and touching on topics relevant to it. I dont recall him pushing shit on anyone. you suggesting he did is bullshit
Couldn't you extend this to make the argument that making humans suffer isn't as bad by itself if you kill them afterwards, and there is no warning for either the pain or the killing? If they are dead, they won't remember.
There is a whole class of drugs used surgery, so you don't remember how much it fucking sucked. It doesn't stop the pain, your in pain during the surgery, but you forget. Wonderful huh.
I really hate when people try to trivialize animal suffering. Theyre brains may not be as developed as ours but pain is felt in the primetive part of the brain, so it feels the same to them as it does to us.
And you can't compare the pain of breaking a bone with say, being skinned alive.. There is no comparison.
The cruel, but honest answer is that we do it because we can. It's the god complex of humanity that our self awareness gives us the right do improve our lives by any means that we choose. We are the sole rational creatures on our green earth, we hold the keys of change, life, death, and everything inbetween. Our lives are more important than any lab rat (that wouldn't exist if it weren't for the testing) because we have the power to say so.
Let me know when the animals rise up and complain
I think it's quite obvious that animals indeed anticipate and associate sensations, both physical and emotional, with certain objects, humans or other triggers. This is well-established and, as wenchellbogum states, the basis of our current training methods. I adopted a formerly abused dog a few years ago. To this day, she cowers--belly to the ground--anytime someone speaks loudly or stands over her, or reaches too quickly for an object near her. She recalls certain human behaviors and -->
expects to be beaten whenever these triggers appear. No amount of coddling now can ameliorate her psychological damage. And dogs are very common testing subjects. I have only ever had rescued animals and see this same scenario over and over again. Growing up, we had several rescued farm animals. One chicken's foot had been set on fire by a few deviants. Though she recovered, anytime she later saw a flame--lighting a grill, a campfire, a cigar--she fled, squawking and flailing all the way.
"I don' think suffering in the real instant, is that terrible...the real-time pain wasn't that bad." Huh? You're comparing pain you suffered in order to make you healthy to the pain an animal endures so you can brush your teeth and wash your face with soap that doesn't make your eyes sting? That makes no sense. Totally bad comparison.
Well, nothing stays remembered or anticipated forever. We're born and die. So even anticipating and remembering are moments. So I think that pain in the moment matters. Not that I am saying pain in the moment for a cow matters...
A friend of mine recently had a colon- oscophy and was given that "forget-about-it" drug. After the procedure, when we were in the recovery area, he was able to engage in a fairly coherent conversation with me. After I got him home, I brought up some of the topics we'd discussed earlier. He didn't remember any of them; so I just made up some shite about how he had proposed marriage to me.
-Signed: The Bride (jk - That happened years ago when I added that Ambien in his vodka and tonic ;)
My unqualified thoughts: We train animals to do complex behaviors. The two main motivators we use are either pain or pleasure... the pain of a whip or verbal scolding, the pleasure of a treat or praise. If the animal could not remember or anticipate the reward or the punishment, would these motivators work? None of this is to say that I don't eat animals. They are tasty, and as a human I have evolved to eat some of them. I prefer that they not suffer too much before I eat them.
If you remember the pain, and what was happening with your body etc, then at least you'll know it's coming next time.
I had Twilight before--that's the drug you are talking about, but I was safe in the hospital when that was happening. I wouldn't choose to forget the other horrible pain I had because if I see that coming down the road again, Imma put up a big roadblock.
@GoblinXXX First, not all animals can be trained that way. Second, just because some animal's behavior can be altered by pain, that does not necessarily mean that they reflect on or remember that pain after the initial incident.
@GoblinXXX Not necessarily. We all develop behavior from our environment and might not know, ourselves, why we do it. You could be a good worker because you dad would beat you if you didnt do your chores. You might remember the beatings but not notice the effects. Many animals show dominance in painful ways, too. Oddly, you might be just inflicting enough pain to establish authority. I dont condone beating animals.
I think that mental pain is so much greater than physical pain.
I've been emotionally and mentally abused, and I wished I could go through the phsysical pain instead. I also have an illness that come with HORRIBLE pain, and the mental pain that comes with it is far greater than the physical pain. If I could take that away, life would be A LOT easier.
I'm surprised you're so vehement about not taking drugs or alcohol, but you have no qualms about taking serious mind-altering prescription prescription drugs like Ambien. I'm not pro drug-use or anything, but I just find this interesting.
fuck ambien that shit is soo damn addictive and it has the most bizzare side effects...i was on it once for like 7 monthes straight..i know thats waaaay to long of a time to be on it.
..i had no idea at the time and my doc had no prob prescribing it month after month...never warned me once of the side effect and the danger of being on it for so damn long..anyway that shit made me do bizarre things that i had no memory of..one night apparently i tryed to fuck my girlfriend in the ass while she was sleeping...haha no joke..and she said that she woke up and told me no and i started crying...haha bizzare shit
We have a dog, Smokey, who we got from a shelter. he was from an abusive home.
12 years later, he STILL crouches down, turns his head and cowers in fear, even occasionally yelping, in anticipation that I am going to hurt him, even tho I have NEVER, EVER, physically disciplined or harmed him in any way.
Why are people fighting so much for animal rights as opposed to focusing on human rights and treating other people without having anyone to suffer or feel pain? THINK ABOUT IT
man, there are thousands starving in our own country, right here in America, yet I still see more stupid PETA commercials than any to help feed people here in our own country, I agree that we should solve our own, human, problems before we try to fix the animal problems especially from people like PETA who are just terrorists.
Also, a lot of, if not most, animal rights activists are the type of people who DO care about people suffering, and actually work to help fix it. I see most of these people as being the sort who feel intense empathy and hate to see suffering of any kind.
lol if PETA gave a shit about people they wouldn't bomb medical testing facilities which could help thousands of people live healthier, longer lives. I have been a Type 1 diabetic since I was 19, a freak accident that the doctors can't even explain, and I hate anyone who would stand in the way of me one day getting a new pancreas, having to stick myself with needles everyday is no way for anyone to live, it sucks, not to mention the cost of prescriptions...
I know the subject's already going to come up (if it hasn't already), but the "they won't remember it" is the same justification they use for cutting off a baby's foreskin with absolutely no anesthetic. Causing someone extreme pain just bothers me, I don't care what you say. If you're going to do that, make sure they can't feel the pain first.
Having worked in the animal care industry, I know that animals (at least dogs), can anticipate pain. I've seen abused dogs flinch when I raised my hand to pull back my hair. They might not remember the same way we do, but they can be conditioned. Any animal that can be conditioned can be traumatized. Still, if you kill the animal and eat it, it won't be suffering will it? I totally disagree with the logic of moral vegans concerning the killing of animals. They kill/eat each other anyway.
I'm vegan and have been for quite a while. I've heard this argument before and can't help but take it seriously. I think it hits on the truth. Certainly we need to extend some rights to great apes but do we need to extend consideration to animals without the ability to remember and anticipate experiences? I'm still grappling with this. I'll continue to be vegan for reasons to do with living sustainably but not so sure about ethics anymore.
While I disagree with both health-related and ethical veganism, you're free to live your conscience.
What I argue about - and Penn touched on it - is that you can only realistically recognize one's rights when they would afford those rights toward everyone else who is also doing the same. This is why we jail murderers and such.
Most humans are capable of this; the great apes are not. You can respect an ape's "right to live", but he will not respect yours.
Right--I've always considered that a weak argument. It's no different than saying we should not do our best to protect and look after the well-being of children because they don't have the capacity to do the same for us. Children deserve certain basic rights, as do apes even though these groups would not necessarily afford the same rights to us.
It's a slippery slope. I don't shoot bunnies just coz I can nor slash and burn forests for the hell of it... Buuuut I do appreciate that thousands of dogs and pigs gave their lives for insulin medications.
I don't think people should own or even be in close contact to most animals, so it's a moot point otherwise. I love my dog, but owning non-human primates is silly. Same with large cats, deer, bears, etc. Just silly.
Then on the occasion it's me or them: I'll choose me. Every time.
When you're injured you feel physical pain, and wounds generally heal. There may be psychological suffering afterward depending on the severity of the injury. The question is what animals that we eat experience this suffering? When a human loses a limb or has ugly scars there are social implications that contribute to the suffering. If a chicken loses its wing and heals does it suffer after, will it feel insecure about it, do the other chickens discriminate it? No right? That's all I think.
For me the scar reminds me of the pain experience and that visual gives me vivid pain flashbacks and fuels fears that it could happen again. I've had equal/worse pain than the scar incident but I recall the scar incident much clearer. It has nothing to do with social implictaions for me, it's simply a visual aid..kinda like when you see a jackass on tv get kicked in the balls, you feel it when you see it. Same deal here. Hey Penn- know any docs that can get rid of my scar?
I had a poodle that I would groom myself and while I was trimming her face, she flinched and I accidentally shaved off her eyebrows. She looked like a neaderthal/unibrow..it was rediculous!She knew it and didnt appreciate it one bit. But I cant say other dogs discriminated against her for it, just humans. Re: plastic surgeons..I want a surgeon that answers to Penn cause he doesn't screw around ! :)
Consider the premise being animal suffering: is suffering ONLY physical? I don't think so. I think fear plays a far greater factor in suffering than pain. Animals, due to the slightly different way their brains are structured experience fear on a far greater level than humans. Cool book: Animals in Translation by Temple Grandin. You know, if you are interested in learning more about our brains/ animal brains.
Fear and suffering are based in imagination of the future and memory of the past, both of which are as presently immaterial as Santa Claus. So if you are suffering from what is yet to come or has been, you are suffering from the nonexistantial. If you are suffering the nonexistantial, isn't that insanity? So if you are in fear or regret you are simply in a socially acceptable level of insanity.
Singer is pretty much a nut. Had to read his stuff for an environmental studies class I took, and heard him speak back in september. Your views make much more sense.
(read my other comment first - I ran out of space)
So, I know that when I mastered the concept of past/present/future in my late 20s that changed my perception of my Asperger's/bipolar and Chrons symptoms because I could then say 'Oh - this will stop at some point . . I see . . .' Just a thought - I enjoy these discussions very much
By the way, I'm a vegan and I was so happy to see the BS on PETA - they are such a destructive group - give to animal welfare, not rights
This is really an interesting discussion. But I would think that animals not being able to anticipate makes their pain more intense. If an animal is only aware of NOW then their pain is more intense because they are only aware of their current state of mind. I have Asperger's syndrome and bipolar and Temple Grandin, a famous woman with autism and a Ph.D. in animal science likens the way our brains work to the way that animal minds work (continued on next comment)
Koko, the gorilla who learned sign language, was able to relate memories of her family being murdered by humans. So it seems that primates at least can have long-term memories of painful experiences.
Whether the "quality" of pain is different if you anticipate it or not, pain is pain and you know you can either eat without causing it or live with the fact that you're being an asshole.
I would imagine that if you can get rid of short term and long term memory of pain there would be no pain at all. If one is feeling or experiencing anything it is due to memory i would think. Like, if one breaks their leg, the feeling is made possible by the passage of time and the fact that one was in pain several instances ago(however long an instance is). I guess if one has no memory, short or long term, one can't feel things. What if a guy only had long term memory, that would be wierd.
Animal can anticipate and remember pain. It's the basis of their survival techniques. But, they don't have the cognition to actually recall more complicated causes and effects of their pain. Either put them in jail for shitting every where or eat 'em. Which is tastier?
It's not likely true, at all, that your baby boy only felt "a little discomfort" during his non-consensual surgical genital alteration.
This is youtube, go watch a few vids of medical neonatal circumcisions. Also, since you are into Penn and Teller, I recommend watching their episode about circumcision.
I agree with the previous post. I think it is obvious that animals do anticipate and remember pain, an example of an abused dog for example. But, regardless, human beings are a species of animal, human beings are a part of nature, and as such human beings have the same right to seek food as other animals do.
Hate to defend the activists and contradict Penn but of course animals remember and anticipate pain. Don't even need to get too scientific since anyone who has seen an abused dog can see it cringe when a hand or newspaper is raised. Pavlov's anticipation isn't just for rewards.
Animal pain and suffering is therefore a good argument ... it's just insufficient for me since I like meat more than I dislike the animal's discomfort. May be barbaric but it's worth it to me and ... completely natural.
I like meat. I hunt and I fish. I do these things just as much for fun as to save money and provide some direct source natural nutrition for my family. If humans were not supposed to eat other animals the cave people would not have done it. Some people might cry when a lion eats a Zebra or a spider eats a fly, but these people have been spoiled by the grocery store society. animals eat other animals it is nature.
Unmotivated, I'd rather see you hunt and fish than get your meat from a grocery store, but if humans weren't supposed to be disgusted by death and eating dead animals, there wouldn't be any who are.
On the note of human pain though, being able to forget it might take away the aspect of "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger." I don't know, I've had operations under general anesthetic where I've forgotten periods after the fact which would have spared me the memory of pain but, that being said, I am more frightened of having no recollection of what happened for those moments of my life that are gone now.
Go cause an animal suffering and try to forget about it, unless you deserve to suffer yourself you won't... and shouldn't... That takes away a basic human need to be aware of the fact that they are being damaged or are damaging... Humans are way to stupid to trust them with this kind of power over another being with nerves. Suffering does matter Penn.. Pain is worse when it happens than the memory of it Penn FFS...
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3) It seems he needs to make this video to still his guilty conscience for the bullshit documentary they made of PETA, in which they were up to their eyeballs in specious reasoning and outright lies. But his arguments are just as bad this time. Darwin was a vegetarian, and no serious biologist since him would support any of Penn's baseless and speciesist speculations.
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Yeah, you said it all shreddedglory.
As an atheist and libertarian, I agree with Penn on a lot, but as a vegan, his ignorance pisses me off to no end. His selfishness knows no bounds, his arguments for mistreating animals are paper thin. He's holding animals to a standard that he is defining subjectively, one that he knows they have no chance of measuring up to. And he does so in refutation of a distorted, oversimplified argument.
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2) Now, many animals can reason as well as human children af the age of four, eg. chimps, pigs, dolphins. So does the limited mental capacity of a 4 year old limit their suffering? Is it OK for us to experiment on them to make medicine? And this fat fuck doesn't just experiment on animals to get life saving drugs for humans - he stuffs his face with meat every day for fun, committing murder and inflicting completely unnecessary suffering on innocents.
Good points for the animals you listed they should be considered above all lesser animals as those animals listed are more intelligent. But a human 4 year olds have early human language and that makes a bug difference in the realm of consciousness.
1) The ONLY difference between humans and OTHER animals (because humans are just an animal species) is in their ability to reason, which is also what makes us able to remember and anticipate pain. And even that difference is one of degree, not a categorical one, because other animals can reason too - only not as well as humans.
I know the doc said that when my son was circumsized(sp?), he would ONLY feel a little discomfort...How could that possibly be? Strange. Thank god (or whatever) our brain isn't formed enough at that point to remember. I know I've had my share of really painful moments and it's always dull prolonged pain (slipped disc) that has been much worse than sudden trama (broken jaw, broken arm, bad car wreck)...strange.
A human infant probably has a lesser comprehension of suffering than your average adult cow, but i don't know many people who would say it's acceptable to inflict pain on them because of that.
So the argument is that animals cannot anticipate or ruminate on pain and therefore it is not an issue. I just got my first dog ever and it was an abused dog and if I do certain motions or move too quickly it definitely remembers the pain from more than two years prior.
aren't we animals according to science? can't we feel pain. so what makes you think cats and dogs can't this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I stepped on my cats tale she screamed out in pain. this is dumb. yes they can think, suffer, cry, scream, laugh, get happy, feel sad, get depressed, get head aches, they have emotions to.
Penn I like the discussion opened up but no creature on earth would be around if there was not a memory-pain mechanism co existing. this applies all the way down to insects
I don't think it matters whether or not animals can anticipate and remember pain because we cannot ask them to describe how they feel. That being said, it does not matter whether or not they can anticipate and remember it, because it does not change the way we as humans ought to treat animals. For instance we should not go out of our way to be extra cruel or to inflict pain for no reason. I figure this is why most of us dont do things like kick puppies for a hobby.
It's important to know because if animals anticipate, feel and remember pain because we can relate that information to ourselves and learn how much we have in common with other animals. This idea of pain would also be consistent with evolution, so we'd be furthering our understanding of that branch of science. Although I disagree with PETA, I do believe that animals should never be abused. I like having evidence for beliefs, and knowing more about their nature would help justify them.
Yeah, if animals couldn't anticipate, feel and remember pain then that would in my opinion contradict a lot of the basics of evolution. But what I don't get is this urge to be able to justify hurting animals. As if it's OK to do so if the animal can't remember the pain 1 week or 1 year later. Anyone questioning these things should get a dog, kick it every morning and then observe its behaviour after 6 months of morning kicks.
Justify hurting animals? I'm not trying to justify hurting animals. I don't think they should be abused at all.
As for kicking a dog every morning for 6 months, you'd probably get a mean-ass dog after a while. This is seen a lot with pit bulls. Some think that they're aggressive by nature; some think it has more to do with how they're raised. If the latter is true, then subjecting the animal to that sort of pain is bad because it endangers pretty much anyone exposed to the animal.
No, I never meant you were justifying hurting animals. We're on the same page there. Even if animals can't anticipate or remember pain I think it's uncalled for to hurt them. That's why I don't know why it matters. But anyone questioning animals' ability to anticipate, feel and remember must be very ignorant and has probably not owned a dog. I thought experiments such as Pavlo's bell settled it, apparently not. :s
Yes, that's true. I think I understand you better now. As important as I think it is to understand an animal's perception to pain, I always thought it was pretty self-evident. When youasked why anyone should care whether or not animals have any anticipation or memory to pain, I thought you might have been insinuating that it doesn't matter if they do, and therefore, we shouldn't care if we hurt them. But I now can tell that you didn't mean it that way. My fault.
Have you ever seen a dog that has been abused? He will shy away from anything that even slightly resembles an abusive gesture. Animals CAN and DO remember and suffer pain. The real question is, who is at the top of the food chain. Yes we MUST ensure that animals are treated respectfully, but we must also not forget that we are an omnivorous species.
I agree. They certainly have memories, there is no doubt to that. They also certainly feel pain, a dog or cat who cries out when you step on their tail is evidence of that. Why wouldn't they remember the pain they felt as much as any other thing that happens to them?
Forget? Just hit your late fifties....lunch? dinner? Keys?
Do NOT try new places to put things after you hit 50. You Will forget where you put stuff.
GIve a drug so you don't remember suffering? What's the difference between that and just killing someone...they won't remember that either. Penn is talking about removing the element of time as thought in regards to pain here, well, somebodies about ready to read Krishnamurti's Commentaries on Living...volume 2
My dog was abused when she was a pup before we got her from a rescue center and she now has seperation anxiety whenever we leave the house. She hates being on her own. Plus we think she was abused by a male because she really hates men. Women she can get used to in a few minutes of inviting them through the door, but with males it can take her months to get used to them. There is only one man she trusts and thats my dad.
Of course they can feel pain. They have nerves so they can feel pain, plus they can mentally suffer. Say you put a dog in a small cage, it would be stressed and start to show signs of it's stress like pacing and pulling out it's fur.
Morphine, considered the most powerful pain killer does not block the sensation of pain, but rather the the reaction. In other words, you 'don't care'.
I think this video really hits on the relevance of pain and pleasure to the human condition. With the awareness of time (something that so far as we can tell animals don't have to our degree), the power of pain and pleasure is shifted from the experience to it's consequences.
We can become 'scarred for life' from 'bad' experiences. Powerful
In any event, I don't agree with Penn's suggestion that the anticipation of pain and the memory of it is worse than the actual event. Every time I've been burnt or stung or strained a ligament or broke a bone - some real severe pain - the moment itself has always been far worse than my latter memory of it. Remembering pain or anticipating a known pain sensation is nowhere near as bad as the event itself (unless we're pussies talking about flu shots!).
Pain is perhaps the most basic and most ancient state of awareness. The capacity to anticipate it and remember what caused it is very basic to the survival of organisms far more primitive than humans and doubtless appeared long before us.
The notion that we humans are the only creatures who can anticipate, dread, or remember pain is something I would expect from a religious fundy who imagines man to occupy a special place, far far removed from those unfeeling mechanical animals, not Penn.
When I've had the flu and the pain was excruciating, I can still recall being 'occupied' with it (when going through it) which wasn't as bad as the anticipation of a supposed unstoppable next episode. Then I can go and eat blazin' Wild Wings and not be bothered by the 'pain', but enjoy it (even the aftershock), because mentally, I still have a sense of control of the 'pain'.I would bet that experimantally, if I had major diffrences in how long the feeling lasted, uncontrolled, I wouldn't eat em
I'd just like to clear up a misconception of the animal rights movement which you've stated. Proponents do not mean they want animals to be recognized as members of our society with rights as we know them. From what I can tell, by "rights", they only mean they want animals to be treated as ethical developed nations would treat remote island jungle tribes; simply not exploiting them and just leaving them to be left alone.
A lot like the old story a teenage girl see's a middle aged man banging his head against the wall and she asks him why are you banging your head against the wall? The middle aged man replies "becauce it feels so good when I stop" That is the ONLY good thing about pain. Just about anytime it stops you feel good....for a while.
Also note: similar drug tested for PTSD so that people with PTSD stop haveing flashbacks. This drug will be common because of the Iraq war.
Pain can be either physical or emotional, whether you've fallen off a ladder and broken a bone or you're feeling grief over a loved one dying, pain is pain. Nothing can take away the pain, it only makes you not feel it. The pain is there, yes, but anesthetics don't cure it, they deter it.
On the notion of animals anticipating pain and remembering pain, I would think so. I'm not too sure that they can anticipate it, but they surely can if it is being repeated. It's trial and error.
Like when you were younger, i'm sure you were taught about hot and cold by your parents. You didn't know what it was, and the only way to know is to experience it. If your dog does something bad and you hit them, pop them on the nose and then and your last strike stop before you hit them. They flinch. If you do it repeatedly, they will back away from you.
Nothing anticipates pain the first time they experience something that gives pain.
Penn, I don't understand why you think it's an argument to say "we'd have to throw animals in prision for violating the rights of other animals." This is an easy laugh, but human beings have the ability to consider their actions and the impact those have on others, animals don't, and so can't be held to the same ethical standards. But if it is it is wrong regardless of the "natural state" of the world.
I agree that animals probably feel less psychological pain, though. Humans can deal with any aount of pain as long as they know it'll be over quickly, but make it last long, like an untreated toothache or psychological pain, and they'll start to go crazy.
my cat just got all her teeth out, and she was growling all the way home from the vet, but as soon as she got in the door, tail up, happy as could be, everything forgotten
So animals cant think? they cant make intelligent decisions? Animals do consider their actions, but they just dont care, anything for survival. they dont murder for fun, they do it for food, they dont rip out other animals throat for fun, they do it for food.
"consider their actions and the impact those have on others" ~ you neglected to read the part after the and! You're right that what I wrote isn't always true, animals do consider their impact on others in a limited fashion, but as far as I know, cannot in any broad ethical sense.
Which is why the concept of animal 'rights' is ludicrous. Animals, in the legal sense, have protections, not rights. Laws against cruelty are really about us and not animals.
"Laws against cruelty are really about us and not animals."
I'm not 100% sure what you mean by this, can you explain it in more detail if you get the chance? Thanks.
I agree that if a right is defined as something meant to be respected by two equal parties, we should use the word "protections" instead when it comes to animals.
What I mean is that they are more for satisfying our own cultural sensibilities than for the sensibilities of the animals themselves. The laws are most certainly based on our cultural bias regarding one animal versus another. In most jurisdictions if you shoot a dog you might go to jail. But if you shoot a deer it's hunting or use a rat trap to kill 'vermin' your well within your rights.
not only brain memory, but one could also talk of body and cellular memory. a lot of people say that body and cellular memory is impossible but i don't. interesting topic.
followingbreadcrumbs 1 year ago
Studies have been done that show a chemical released while under pain actually helps your memory. I'll bet many of the vivid memories people have from their childhood are ones of pain. Nature has to figure out a way to make sure you don't touch the stove twice. I would be shocked to know other animals don't use this same way to "train" themselves. That being said, abuse is probably something you wouldn't forget then.
albinoman13bt 1 year ago
@albinoman13bt Can you link me these studies?
grandmasterreggae 1 year ago
I admire you Penn, but I hope you're not saying that animals don't remember pain. Because that is bullsh!t, all you have to do is look at an abused dog.
mikerodeman 1 year ago
I think this is an utterly half-baked analysis. You should actually read Peter Singer, and then comment upon his positions. Then you wouldn't make the fatuous claim that animal rights would necessitate having animals follow laws they cannot understand. Is a retarded human being fit to be dissected and tortured at our whim because they don't comprehend the law? you should think through a topic a bit, and then bloviate, for better results.
contrajdubbl 1 year ago
Hope your friend gets better soon ;)
moqutpar 1 year ago
iverson is the best basketball player of all time
CapitalKin6916 1 year ago
This is a similar idea to Dollhouse.
pennsays 1 year ago
under this logic would it be ok to rape someone if they didn't remember they were raped? I'd say no. It is still a violation of their very being.
karn33333 1 year ago 2
Have you guys seen the episode of The Simpsons where Homer was on Ambian?
pennsays 1 year ago
Life without pain would be fucked up beyond belief.
thelegendz 1 year ago
all pain is forgot at death though but none the less animals should have no rights unless they are owned by a person
amalwaysawsome 2 years ago
you should have no rights.
drealgrin 1 year ago
Any reason behind that statement?
amalwaysawsome 1 year ago
you said animals shouldn't have rights, i say you shouldn't.
drealgrin 1 year ago
no i said wild animals should have no rights
amalwaysawsome 1 year ago
wild animals should have rights. When they didn't we started destroying a shit ton of species and right now we're destroying shit tons more.
Sure you can defend the fact that there have been billions of species that went extinct throughout time But when has it been a result of ONE species?
We have the capability to nurture our planet and make it better, instead we're choosing to take advantage of every resource there is without even fully understanding all of them. We must preserve the planet!
drealgrin 1 year ago
It is actually impossible to protect their rights unless they become private property.
amalwaysawsome 1 year ago
rofl no it's not. roflmao.
drealgrin 1 year ago
Tell me how you can stop animals from being eaten by others.
You can't or at least it would be very stupid if you did.
amalwaysawsome 1 year ago
lmao... roflmao. wow...
drealgrin 1 year ago
You cry out that animals need rights but you find it amusing, the thought of animals actually having rights, and you show no effort to protect their rights. Damn you must really care about animal rights.
amalwaysawsome 1 year ago
animal rights animal rights animal rights animal rights, dude...
drealgrin 1 year ago
Holy Crap. I agree with Penn on this one. I didn't think about on the level of memory either.
OptimusGonzoo 2 years ago
It's not difficult to think about at all.
Not too long ago infants used to have open heart surgery performed on them because "Babies can't feel/remember pain"
Right now Male babies are being genitally mutilated because "They won't remember it"
It's not a difficult thing to think about at all. Just because someone doesn't remember it that doesn't atone for it being done.
drealgrin 2 years ago 5
I agree I would also point out that just because someone doesn't conscientiously remember doesn't mean that they don't subconsciously remember, or that there aren't other permanent mental effects.
karn33333 1 year ago
Hahaha put animals in jail for shitting
HeThatOwns 2 years ago 2
The entire evolutionary purpose of pain is to train the creature to avoid damage to itself. If animals percieved pain as if under the effects of this drug, it wouldn't serve that purpose, and they wouldn't experience it at all.
Skillbus 2 years ago
Your phrase near the end - "something smarter people should think about" - got me thinking about this question:
Do smart people legitimately have greater moral weight (I won't say worth, but "heft") than stupid people, because of their enhanced ability to anticipate and remember pain?
LandownerRecords 2 years ago 2
Theres a drug hypertension drug called propranolol. It blocks the reception of adrenaline in your brain. A study was done with a woman who had post- traumatic stress disorder, and upon taking the drug and remembering her accident, she was able to see that it was only her memory that was reconstructing this accident , and making it much worse than it was in reality. So there you go Penn, you can erase your past pain, because according to the study, you just wont care that much about it anymore
FlyingFooBalls 2 years ago
if you accidentally stomp on your dog he will fear the next time you walk around him, ox, horses circus animals are trained by pain and fear of it-this is basically a stupid argument
clat1 2 years ago
i agree
LMfaOVide0z 2 years ago
hey your discription is off
mymorningvodka 2 years ago 2
So we have the right to inflict pain on someone or something else because they won't remember? I wouldn't want someone making that choice for me!! And this is his personal preferences.. you can't push them on others that might not think that the in the moment excruciating pain was not so bad. Just like his show.. this is Bullshit.
sjdunnejr 2 years ago
you need to listen fool he wasnt saying its ok to make that choice for someone he was talking about pain and the effects of it and touching on topics relevant to it. I dont recall him pushing shit on anyone. you suggesting he did is bullshit
illustratedcore 2 years ago
Couldn't you extend this to make the argument that making humans suffer isn't as bad by itself if you kill them afterwards, and there is no warning for either the pain or the killing? If they are dead, they won't remember.
Skillbus 2 years ago 2
There is a whole class of drugs used surgery, so you don't remember how much it fucking sucked. It doesn't stop the pain, your in pain during the surgery, but you forget. Wonderful huh.
It's true.
beefygoblin 2 years ago
I really hate when people try to trivialize animal suffering. Theyre brains may not be as developed as ours but pain is felt in the primetive part of the brain, so it feels the same to them as it does to us.
And you can't compare the pain of breaking a bone with say, being skinned alive.. There is no comparison.
badmuffy 2 years ago 4
ummm he didnt.
illustratedcore 2 years ago 2
The cruel, but honest answer is that we do it because we can. It's the god complex of humanity that our self awareness gives us the right do improve our lives by any means that we choose. We are the sole rational creatures on our green earth, we hold the keys of change, life, death, and everything inbetween. Our lives are more important than any lab rat (that wouldn't exist if it weren't for the testing) because we have the power to say so.
Let me know when the animals rise up and complain
Boevis 2 years ago
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marsules 2 years ago
I think it's quite obvious that animals indeed anticipate and associate sensations, both physical and emotional, with certain objects, humans or other triggers. This is well-established and, as wenchellbogum states, the basis of our current training methods. I adopted a formerly abused dog a few years ago. To this day, she cowers--belly to the ground--anytime someone speaks loudly or stands over her, or reaches too quickly for an object near her. She recalls certain human behaviors and -->
lucybells0 2 years ago 3
expects to be beaten whenever these triggers appear. No amount of coddling now can ameliorate her psychological damage. And dogs are very common testing subjects. I have only ever had rescued animals and see this same scenario over and over again. Growing up, we had several rescued farm animals. One chicken's foot had been set on fire by a few deviants. Though she recovered, anytime she later saw a flame--lighting a grill, a campfire, a cigar--she fled, squawking and flailing all the way.
lucybells0 2 years ago 2
you completely missed the point.
muhammedalix 2 years ago
To save human lives?
I'd kill 50 puppies with my bear hands to save a convicted shoplifter's life.
Darth09 2 years ago
amen
illustratedcore 2 years ago
@Darth09 How do you type with those bear hands? They shouldn't be good for anything except stealing pic-a-nic baskets.
GoblinXXX 1 year ago
"I don' think suffering in the real instant, is that terrible...the real-time pain wasn't that bad." Huh? You're comparing pain you suffered in order to make you healthy to the pain an animal endures so you can brush your teeth and wash your face with soap that doesn't make your eyes sting? That makes no sense. Totally bad comparison.
Japhetels 2 years ago
Well, nothing stays remembered or anticipated forever. We're born and die. So even anticipating and remembering are moments. So I think that pain in the moment matters. Not that I am saying pain in the moment for a cow matters...
TKnightcrawler 2 years ago
A friend of mine recently had a colon- oscophy and was given that "forget-about-it" drug. After the procedure, when we were in the recovery area, he was able to engage in a fairly coherent conversation with me. After I got him home, I brought up some of the topics we'd discussed earlier. He didn't remember any of them; so I just made up some shite about how he had proposed marriage to me.
-Signed: The Bride (jk - That happened years ago when I added that Ambien in his vodka and tonic ;)
omnivorous1 2 years ago
cunt
oldirtydoggie 2 years ago
My unqualified thoughts: We train animals to do complex behaviors. The two main motivators we use are either pain or pleasure... the pain of a whip or verbal scolding, the pleasure of a treat or praise. If the animal could not remember or anticipate the reward or the punishment, would these motivators work? None of this is to say that I don't eat animals. They are tasty, and as a human I have evolved to eat some of them. I prefer that they not suffer too much before I eat them.
wenchellbogum 2 years ago 3
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americancutie10 2 years ago
If you remember the pain, and what was happening with your body etc, then at least you'll know it's coming next time.
I had Twilight before--that's the drug you are talking about, but I was safe in the hospital when that was happening. I wouldn't choose to forget the other horrible pain I had because if I see that coming down the road again, Imma put up a big roadblock.
Any way I can.
louann5840 2 years ago
Since animals can be trained with whips, they must remember and anticipate pain.
GoblinXXX 2 years ago 12
@GoblinXXX First, not all animals can be trained that way. Second, just because some animal's behavior can be altered by pain, that does not necessarily mean that they reflect on or remember that pain after the initial incident.
eNRGy27 1 year ago
@eNRGy27 Give me an example of an animal that does not shy away from something that previously caused it pain.
GoblinXXX 1 year ago
@GoblinXXX Humans, some even seek out pain... :)
GHollandESQ 1 year ago
@GHollandESQ Some people even get married TWICE.
GoblinXXX 1 year ago
@GoblinXXX Not necessarily. We all develop behavior from our environment and might not know, ourselves, why we do it. You could be a good worker because you dad would beat you if you didnt do your chores. You might remember the beatings but not notice the effects. Many animals show dominance in painful ways, too. Oddly, you might be just inflicting enough pain to establish authority. I dont condone beating animals.
albinoman13bt 1 year ago
I think that mental pain is so much greater than physical pain.
I've been emotionally and mentally abused, and I wished I could go through the phsysical pain instead. I also have an illness that come with HORRIBLE pain, and the mental pain that comes with it is far greater than the physical pain. If I could take that away, life would be A LOT easier.
XxMissNoNamexX 2 years ago
I'm surprised you're so vehement about not taking drugs or alcohol, but you have no qualms about taking serious mind-altering prescription prescription drugs like Ambien. I'm not pro drug-use or anything, but I just find this interesting.
sexualburgerking 2 years ago
fuck ambien that shit is soo damn addictive and it has the most bizzare side effects...i was on it once for like 7 monthes straight..i know thats waaaay to long of a time to be on it.
toolkills 2 years ago
It's different for different people. It's not like that for everyone.
louann5840 2 years ago
..i had no idea at the time and my doc had no prob prescribing it month after month...never warned me once of the side effect and the danger of being on it for so damn long..anyway that shit made me do bizarre things that i had no memory of..one night apparently i tryed to fuck my girlfriend in the ass while she was sleeping...haha no joke..and she said that she woke up and told me no and i started crying...haha bizzare shit
toolkills 2 years ago
We have a dog, Smokey, who we got from a shelter. he was from an abusive home.
12 years later, he STILL crouches down, turns his head and cowers in fear, even occasionally yelping, in anticipation that I am going to hurt him, even tho I have NEVER, EVER, physically disciplined or harmed him in any way.
Animals remember.
Dejoblue 2 years ago 3
Why are people fighting so much for animal rights as opposed to focusing on human rights and treating other people without having anyone to suffer or feel pain? THINK ABOUT IT
CiscoNast 2 years ago
Cuz theres millions of things to fight for. Just because ppl have a certain passion for 1 aspect, doesnt mean that they don't care about another.
Should I not care about animals in animal shelters because some people are starving in other countries?
OpRedDawn 2 years ago 2
man, there are thousands starving in our own country, right here in America, yet I still see more stupid PETA commercials than any to help feed people here in our own country, I agree that we should solve our own, human, problems before we try to fix the animal problems especially from people like PETA who are just terrorists.
NihongoMusic 2 years ago
Also, a lot of, if not most, animal rights activists are the type of people who DO care about people suffering, and actually work to help fix it. I see most of these people as being the sort who feel intense empathy and hate to see suffering of any kind.
SereniT03 2 years ago
lol if PETA gave a shit about people they wouldn't bomb medical testing facilities which could help thousands of people live healthier, longer lives. I have been a Type 1 diabetic since I was 19, a freak accident that the doctors can't even explain, and I hate anyone who would stand in the way of me one day getting a new pancreas, having to stick myself with needles everyday is no way for anyone to live, it sucks, not to mention the cost of prescriptions...
NihongoMusic 2 years ago
Eh, i'd rather just not feel pain.
amadeus2490 2 years ago
Me too. Pain is evil.
CiscoNast 2 years ago
FUCK pain.
I know the subject's already going to come up (if it hasn't already), but the "they won't remember it" is the same justification they use for cutting off a baby's foreskin with absolutely no anesthetic. Causing someone extreme pain just bothers me, I don't care what you say. If you're going to do that, make sure they can't feel the pain first.
amadeus2490 2 years ago
Having worked in the animal care industry, I know that animals (at least dogs), can anticipate pain. I've seen abused dogs flinch when I raised my hand to pull back my hair. They might not remember the same way we do, but they can be conditioned. Any animal that can be conditioned can be traumatized. Still, if you kill the animal and eat it, it won't be suffering will it? I totally disagree with the logic of moral vegans concerning the killing of animals. They kill/eat each other anyway.
nthnlsmmrs 2 years ago
Penn should not be making videos with a perspective that puts the viewer lying on top of him.
youtert 2 years ago
I'm vegan and have been for quite a while. I've heard this argument before and can't help but take it seriously. I think it hits on the truth. Certainly we need to extend some rights to great apes but do we need to extend consideration to animals without the ability to remember and anticipate experiences? I'm still grappling with this. I'll continue to be vegan for reasons to do with living sustainably but not so sure about ethics anymore.
ivanmikhailov 2 years ago
While I disagree with both health-related and ethical veganism, you're free to live your conscience.
What I argue about - and Penn touched on it - is that you can only realistically recognize one's rights when they would afford those rights toward everyone else who is also doing the same. This is why we jail murderers and such.
Most humans are capable of this; the great apes are not. You can respect an ape's "right to live", but he will not respect yours.
one900meat 2 years ago
Right--I've always considered that a weak argument. It's no different than saying we should not do our best to protect and look after the well-being of children because they don't have the capacity to do the same for us. Children deserve certain basic rights, as do apes even though these groups would not necessarily afford the same rights to us.
ivanmikhailov 2 years ago
It's a slippery slope. I don't shoot bunnies just coz I can nor slash and burn forests for the hell of it... Buuuut I do appreciate that thousands of dogs and pigs gave their lives for insulin medications.
I don't think people should own or even be in close contact to most animals, so it's a moot point otherwise. I love my dog, but owning non-human primates is silly. Same with large cats, deer, bears, etc. Just silly.
Then on the occasion it's me or them: I'll choose me. Every time.
one900meat 2 years ago
drill from sabrina the teenage witch
simonwizzle91 2 years ago
When you're injured you feel physical pain, and wounds generally heal. There may be psychological suffering afterward depending on the severity of the injury. The question is what animals that we eat experience this suffering? When a human loses a limb or has ugly scars there are social implications that contribute to the suffering. If a chicken loses its wing and heals does it suffer after, will it feel insecure about it, do the other chickens discriminate it? No right? That's all I think.
TekLok 3 years ago
For me the scar reminds me of the pain experience and that visual gives me vivid pain flashbacks and fuels fears that it could happen again. I've had equal/worse pain than the scar incident but I recall the scar incident much clearer. It has nothing to do with social implictaions for me, it's simply a visual aid..kinda like when you see a jackass on tv get kicked in the balls, you feel it when you see it. Same deal here. Hey Penn- know any docs that can get rid of my scar?
AnarchyLLC 2 years ago
That a good point to add to mine, so you have to wonder which animals care about their own scars? Also I guess you'd have to find a plastic surgeon?
TekLok 2 years ago
I had a poodle that I would groom myself and while I was trimming her face, she flinched and I accidentally shaved off her eyebrows. She looked like a neaderthal/unibrow..it was rediculous!She knew it and didnt appreciate it one bit. But I cant say other dogs discriminated against her for it, just humans. Re: plastic surgeons..I want a surgeon that answers to Penn cause he doesn't screw around ! :)
AnarchyLLC 2 years ago
How far are you willing to run with this idea?
Can the USA just start up assembly lines of torture where everybody gets a lobotomy and a lollipop as they hobble out the door?
davidewetube 3 years ago 2
i got bit by a dog while stoned and the sensation as excruciatingly painfiul, interesting and hilarious
still have a scar
pot doesnt block pain but alters the perception of it
borderlinebuddhist 3 years ago 9
Consider the premise being animal suffering: is suffering ONLY physical? I don't think so. I think fear plays a far greater factor in suffering than pain. Animals, due to the slightly different way their brains are structured experience fear on a far greater level than humans. Cool book: Animals in Translation by Temple Grandin. You know, if you are interested in learning more about our brains/ animal brains.
cut0love0copy 3 years ago
anyone notice this guys made a career on never taking a stance on anything?
cavaliersunbird 3 years ago
no he made a career as a magician and nowadays he likes to just say things as he sees it
sahsplishsplash 3 years ago 2
Funniest start to a video I have seen in a while!
Pilkie101 3 years ago
*****
profanity bump
*****
atypicalguy 3 years ago
Have you ever talked to soldiers about pain? We/ they dont forget.
howhore 3 years ago
Fear and suffering are based in imagination of the future and memory of the past, both of which are as presently immaterial as Santa Claus. So if you are suffering from what is yet to come or has been, you are suffering from the nonexistantial. If you are suffering the nonexistantial, isn't that insanity? So if you are in fear or regret you are simply in a socially acceptable level of insanity.
hoffmeister3050 3 years ago
Singer is pretty much a nut. Had to read his stuff for an environmental studies class I took, and heard him speak back in september. Your views make much more sense.
laniisforlovers 3 years ago
(read my other comment first - I ran out of space)
So, I know that when I mastered the concept of past/present/future in my late 20s that changed my perception of my Asperger's/bipolar and Chrons symptoms because I could then say 'Oh - this will stop at some point . . I see . . .' Just a thought - I enjoy these discussions very much
By the way, I'm a vegan and I was so happy to see the BS on PETA - they are such a destructive group - give to animal welfare, not rights
autisticanimallover 3 years ago
This is really an interesting discussion. But I would think that animals not being able to anticipate makes their pain more intense. If an animal is only aware of NOW then their pain is more intense because they are only aware of their current state of mind. I have Asperger's syndrome and bipolar and Temple Grandin, a famous woman with autism and a Ph.D. in animal science likens the way our brains work to the way that animal minds work (continued on next comment)
autisticanimallover 3 years ago 2
Koko, the gorilla who learned sign language, was able to relate memories of her family being murdered by humans. So it seems that primates at least can have long-term memories of painful experiences.
MoreAnimalThanMan 3 years ago 2
you are so not smart!
lexington210 3 years ago
i had no idea of how fucked up you are!
lexington210 3 years ago
Whether the "quality" of pain is different if you anticipate it or not, pain is pain and you know you can either eat without causing it or live with the fact that you're being an asshole.
schnotzarella 3 years ago
I would imagine that if you can get rid of short term and long term memory of pain there would be no pain at all. If one is feeling or experiencing anything it is due to memory i would think. Like, if one breaks their leg, the feeling is made possible by the passage of time and the fact that one was in pain several instances ago(however long an instance is). I guess if one has no memory, short or long term, one can't feel things. What if a guy only had long term memory, that would be wierd.
mullenjam 3 years ago
i've had 14 broken bones
i've had dislocations
i suffer arthritis in hands feet knees right ankle back neck left shoulder and sternum
i've had over 35 concussions and suffer both migraine and night cluster headaches
Nothing compares to cluster headaches NOTHING!
As I work through each one, the only thing that keeps me sane is the knowledge that it will end
the memory of the last and anticipation of the next cluster are worse than the event its self
yet the pain of human loss is greater.
harryogre 3 years ago
Animal can anticipate and remember pain. It's the basis of their survival techniques. But, they don't have the cognition to actually recall more complicated causes and effects of their pain. Either put them in jail for shitting every where or eat 'em. Which is tastier?
Mudkipia 3 years ago
That's ridiculous. The more pain an animal feels, the more tastier it is! Which makes you think about humans...
cruxvader 3 years ago
if an animal spends its entire life in a painful position, surely whether it remembers the pain is irrelevant as the pain is its entire existence?
Anyway yeah of course animals remember pain and can be distressed due to prior distress.
earfetish 3 years ago
Hey jaybanks...FYI...
It's not likely true, at all, that your baby boy only felt "a little discomfort" during his non-consensual surgical genital alteration.
This is youtube, go watch a few vids of medical neonatal circumcisions. Also, since you are into Penn and Teller, I recommend watching their episode about circumcision.
spiraldarkseraphim 3 years ago
I agree with the previous post. I think it is obvious that animals do anticipate and remember pain, an example of an abused dog for example. But, regardless, human beings are a species of animal, human beings are a part of nature, and as such human beings have the same right to seek food as other animals do.
lombard34 3 years ago 3
Hate to defend the activists and contradict Penn but of course animals remember and anticipate pain. Don't even need to get too scientific since anyone who has seen an abused dog can see it cringe when a hand or newspaper is raised. Pavlov's anticipation isn't just for rewards.
Animal pain and suffering is therefore a good argument ... it's just insufficient for me since I like meat more than I dislike the animal's discomfort. May be barbaric but it's worth it to me and ... completely natural.
takatakishio 3 years ago 3
I like meat. I hunt and I fish. I do these things just as much for fun as to save money and provide some direct source natural nutrition for my family. If humans were not supposed to eat other animals the cave people would not have done it. Some people might cry when a lion eats a Zebra or a spider eats a fly, but these people have been spoiled by the grocery store society. animals eat other animals it is nature.
UnmotivatedNation 3 years ago 2
Unmotivated, I'd rather see you hunt and fish than get your meat from a grocery store, but if humans weren't supposed to be disgusted by death and eating dead animals, there wouldn't be any who are.
schnotzarella 3 years ago
On the note of human pain though, being able to forget it might take away the aspect of "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger." I don't know, I've had operations under general anesthetic where I've forgotten periods after the fact which would have spared me the memory of pain but, that being said, I am more frightened of having no recollection of what happened for those moments of my life that are gone now.
wrklessabndon 3 years ago
Go cause an animal suffering and try to forget about it, unless you deserve to suffer yourself you won't... and shouldn't... That takes away a basic human need to be aware of the fact that they are being damaged or are damaging... Humans are way to stupid to trust them with this kind of power over another being with nerves. Suffering does matter Penn.. Pain is worse when it happens than the memory of it Penn FFS...
IloveJesusYesId0 3 years ago
A lot of people have probably said it already but yes, it is Peter Singer. I beleive he's a great man!
and1skipp 3 years ago
I killed a dear last year and made it into jerky. This year I intend to do the same. Not really related but I'm hoping to offend some vegetarian.
SnowBlind853 3 years ago 3
This comment has received too many negative votes show
3) It seems he needs to make this video to still his guilty conscience for the bullshit documentary they made of PETA, in which they were up to their eyeballs in specious reasoning and outright lies. But his arguments are just as bad this time. Darwin was a vegetarian, and no serious biologist since him would support any of Penn's baseless and speciesist speculations.
shreddedglory 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Yeah, you said it all shreddedglory.
As an atheist and libertarian, I agree with Penn on a lot, but as a vegan, his ignorance pisses me off to no end. His selfishness knows no bounds, his arguments for mistreating animals are paper thin. He's holding animals to a standard that he is defining subjectively, one that he knows they have no chance of measuring up to. And he does so in refutation of a distorted, oversimplified argument.
GaeasBlessing 3 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
2) Now, many animals can reason as well as human children af the age of four, eg. chimps, pigs, dolphins. So does the limited mental capacity of a 4 year old limit their suffering? Is it OK for us to experiment on them to make medicine? And this fat fuck doesn't just experiment on animals to get life saving drugs for humans - he stuffs his face with meat every day for fun, committing murder and inflicting completely unnecessary suffering on innocents.
shreddedglory 3 years ago
Good points for the animals you listed they should be considered above all lesser animals as those animals listed are more intelligent. But a human 4 year olds have early human language and that makes a bug difference in the realm of consciousness.
xeige7 3 years ago
Whoops an extra s on old and bug was supposed to be big lol
xeige7 3 years ago
1) The ONLY difference between humans and OTHER animals (because humans are just an animal species) is in their ability to reason, which is also what makes us able to remember and anticipate pain. And even that difference is one of degree, not a categorical one, because other animals can reason too - only not as well as humans.
shreddedglory 3 years ago
I know the doc said that when my son was circumsized(sp?), he would ONLY feel a little discomfort...How could that possibly be? Strange. Thank god (or whatever) our brain isn't formed enough at that point to remember. I know I've had my share of really painful moments and it's always dull prolonged pain (slipped disc) that has been much worse than sudden trama (broken jaw, broken arm, bad car wreck)...strange.
jaybanks2300 3 years ago
A human infant probably has a lesser comprehension of suffering than your average adult cow, but i don't know many people who would say it's acceptable to inflict pain on them because of that.
silverghosty 3 years ago
There's contractions and then there's...that.
HexDemon666 3 years ago
Your attrocious grammar aside, I'd say you're completely right.
HexDemon666 3 years ago
So the argument is that animals cannot anticipate or ruminate on pain and therefore it is not an issue. I just got my first dog ever and it was an abused dog and if I do certain motions or move too quickly it definitely remembers the pain from more than two years prior.
BillCDay 3 years ago 2
Can they anticipate and remember suffering?!
Circus animals are taught through pain and tricks work by threatening a repeat of the pain.
sy1234 3 years ago 4
ambien says not to take ambien if you cannot have a full nights sleep. so its pointless to take. if used to forget pain that is abusing the drug.
monkeyjeebusx420 3 years ago
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AhmadJohnson0930 3 years ago
You, sir, are an idiot.
dolinick231 3 years ago
aren't we animals according to science? can't we feel pain. so what makes you think cats and dogs can't this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I stepped on my cats tale she screamed out in pain. this is dumb. yes they can think, suffer, cry, scream, laugh, get happy, feel sad, get depressed, get head aches, they have emotions to.
AhmadJohnson0930 3 years ago
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God is real.
The voting system is rigged.
fluoride is put in your water to kill you.
The Bible is 100% true.
McCain is going to win.
Jesus christ is coming again soon.
9/11 was a government set up.
the illuminati is real.
The Titanic was sunk on purpose, by the captain.
God bless you all.
AhmadJohnson0930 3 years ago
Penn I like the discussion opened up but no creature on earth would be around if there was not a memory-pain mechanism co existing. this applies all the way down to insects
Blackliam 3 years ago
I agree, but the question I would have to pose is how does the memory of dead parents help one to survive? Just a thought.
dolinick231 3 years ago
I guess it doesn't, in any direct way at least... I think emotional pain is more complex.
The thing is, physical pain is 10 times worse in my opinion, truly unbearable and that's what needs to be addressed.
Animals can't communicate their feelings so I can't say if they feel emotional pain, but they definitely feel immediate physical pain.
It's felt with with basic parts of the brain that all animals have... and boy does it suck
Blackliam 3 years ago
I don't think it matters whether or not animals can anticipate and remember pain because we cannot ask them to describe how they feel. That being said, it does not matter whether or not they can anticipate and remember it, because it does not change the way we as humans ought to treat animals. For instance we should not go out of our way to be extra cruel or to inflict pain for no reason. I figure this is why most of us dont do things like kick puppies for a hobby.
SmileNow2 3 years ago
Why should one care if animals feel anticipate, feel and remember pain?
bleunt 3 years ago
It's important to know because if animals anticipate, feel and remember pain because we can relate that information to ourselves and learn how much we have in common with other animals. This idea of pain would also be consistent with evolution, so we'd be furthering our understanding of that branch of science. Although I disagree with PETA, I do believe that animals should never be abused. I like having evidence for beliefs, and knowing more about their nature would help justify them.
jvondd 3 years ago
Yeah, if animals couldn't anticipate, feel and remember pain then that would in my opinion contradict a lot of the basics of evolution. But what I don't get is this urge to be able to justify hurting animals. As if it's OK to do so if the animal can't remember the pain 1 week or 1 year later. Anyone questioning these things should get a dog, kick it every morning and then observe its behaviour after 6 months of morning kicks.
bleunt 3 years ago
Justify hurting animals? I'm not trying to justify hurting animals. I don't think they should be abused at all.
As for kicking a dog every morning for 6 months, you'd probably get a mean-ass dog after a while. This is seen a lot with pit bulls. Some think that they're aggressive by nature; some think it has more to do with how they're raised. If the latter is true, then subjecting the animal to that sort of pain is bad because it endangers pretty much anyone exposed to the animal.
jvondd 3 years ago
No, I never meant you were justifying hurting animals. We're on the same page there. Even if animals can't anticipate or remember pain I think it's uncalled for to hurt them. That's why I don't know why it matters. But anyone questioning animals' ability to anticipate, feel and remember must be very ignorant and has probably not owned a dog. I thought experiments such as Pavlo's bell settled it, apparently not. :s
bleunt 3 years ago
Yes, that's true. I think I understand you better now. As important as I think it is to understand an animal's perception to pain, I always thought it was pretty self-evident. When youasked why anyone should care whether or not animals have any anticipation or memory to pain, I thought you might have been insinuating that it doesn't matter if they do, and therefore, we shouldn't care if we hurt them. But I now can tell that you didn't mean it that way. My fault.
jvondd 3 years ago
Have you ever seen a dog that has been abused? He will shy away from anything that even slightly resembles an abusive gesture. Animals CAN and DO remember and suffer pain. The real question is, who is at the top of the food chain. Yes we MUST ensure that animals are treated respectfully, but we must also not forget that we are an omnivorous species.
devsvester 3 years ago
Animals can absolutely remember pain.
OrrGProductions 3 years ago 4
I agree. They certainly have memories, there is no doubt to that. They also certainly feel pain, a dog or cat who cries out when you step on their tail is evidence of that. Why wouldn't they remember the pain they felt as much as any other thing that happens to them?
romulus267 3 years ago
Forget? Just hit your late fifties....lunch? dinner? Keys?
Do NOT try new places to put things after you hit 50. You Will forget where you put stuff.
GIve a drug so you don't remember suffering? What's the difference between that and just killing someone...they won't remember that either. Penn is talking about removing the element of time as thought in regards to pain here, well, somebodies about ready to read Krishnamurti's Commentaries on Living...volume 2
sclogse1 3 years ago
Uh, don't they do this to green berets in training?
T850CSM101a1676 3 years ago
My dog was abused when she was a pup before we got her from a rescue center and she now has seperation anxiety whenever we leave the house. She hates being on her own. Plus we think she was abused by a male because she really hates men. Women she can get used to in a few minutes of inviting them through the door, but with males it can take her months to get used to them. There is only one man she trusts and thats my dad.
LoveDoujinshi 3 years ago 3
Of course they can feel pain. They have nerves so they can feel pain, plus they can mentally suffer. Say you put a dog in a small cage, it would be stressed and start to show signs of it's stress like pacing and pulling out it's fur.
LoveDoujinshi 3 years ago 3
Morphine, considered the most powerful pain killer does not block the sensation of pain, but rather the the reaction. In other words, you 'don't care'.
I think this video really hits on the relevance of pain and pleasure to the human condition. With the awareness of time (something that so far as we can tell animals don't have to our degree), the power of pain and pleasure is shifted from the experience to it's consequences.
We can become 'scarred for life' from 'bad' experiences. Powerful
AssyrianRebel 3 years ago
In any event, I don't agree with Penn's suggestion that the anticipation of pain and the memory of it is worse than the actual event. Every time I've been burnt or stung or strained a ligament or broke a bone - some real severe pain - the moment itself has always been far worse than my latter memory of it. Remembering pain or anticipating a known pain sensation is nowhere near as bad as the event itself (unless we're pussies talking about flu shots!).
BillTheHeathen 3 years ago
Pain is perhaps the most basic and most ancient state of awareness. The capacity to anticipate it and remember what caused it is very basic to the survival of organisms far more primitive than humans and doubtless appeared long before us.
The notion that we humans are the only creatures who can anticipate, dread, or remember pain is something I would expect from a religious fundy who imagines man to occupy a special place, far far removed from those unfeeling mechanical animals, not Penn.
BillTheHeathen 3 years ago
When I've had the flu and the pain was excruciating, I can still recall being 'occupied' with it (when going through it) which wasn't as bad as the anticipation of a supposed unstoppable next episode. Then I can go and eat blazin' Wild Wings and not be bothered by the 'pain', but enjoy it (even the aftershock), because mentally, I still have a sense of control of the 'pain'.I would bet that experimantally, if I had major diffrences in how long the feeling lasted, uncontrolled, I wouldn't eat em
b4skin 3 years ago
I think animals remember pain - that's why cattle prods and electric fences work. Emotional pain? doubt it, but life seeks comfort seems to me.
loveisallneed 3 years ago
I'd just like to clear up a misconception of the animal rights movement which you've stated. Proponents do not mean they want animals to be recognized as members of our society with rights as we know them. From what I can tell, by "rights", they only mean they want animals to be treated as ethical developed nations would treat remote island jungle tribes; simply not exploiting them and just leaving them to be left alone.
technologysucks 3 years ago
Of course animals remember suffering. Beat a dog every day and find out if his behavior changes.
eirefrance 3 years ago
OK...anyone got a spare dog?
XitUp 3 years ago
Haha, your pretend irreverance is so edgy.
eirefrance 3 years ago
Thanks. My wit is so sharp I should come with a warning label.
XitUp 3 years ago
A lot like the old story a teenage girl see's a middle aged man banging his head against the wall and she asks him why are you banging your head against the wall? The middle aged man replies "becauce it feels so good when I stop" That is the ONLY good thing about pain. Just about anytime it stops you feel good....for a while.
Also note: similar drug tested for PTSD so that people with PTSD stop haveing flashbacks. This drug will be common because of the Iraq war.
valhala56 3 years ago
interesting
Crosisborg 3 years ago
Pain can be either physical or emotional, whether you've fallen off a ladder and broken a bone or you're feeling grief over a loved one dying, pain is pain. Nothing can take away the pain, it only makes you not feel it. The pain is there, yes, but anesthetics don't cure it, they deter it.
On the notion of animals anticipating pain and remembering pain, I would think so. I'm not too sure that they can anticipate it, but they surely can if it is being repeated. It's trial and error.
ActualInfo 3 years ago
Like when you were younger, i'm sure you were taught about hot and cold by your parents. You didn't know what it was, and the only way to know is to experience it. If your dog does something bad and you hit them, pop them on the nose and then and your last strike stop before you hit them. They flinch. If you do it repeatedly, they will back away from you.
Nothing anticipates pain the first time they experience something that gives pain.
Trial and error.
ActualInfo 3 years ago
who is pen ?
EpicMyAss 3 years ago
Penn, I don't understand why you think it's an argument to say "we'd have to throw animals in prision for violating the rights of other animals." This is an easy laugh, but human beings have the ability to consider their actions and the impact those have on others, animals don't, and so can't be held to the same ethical standards. But if it is it is wrong regardless of the "natural state" of the world.
VeiledHeathen 3 years ago
I agree that animals probably feel less psychological pain, though. Humans can deal with any aount of pain as long as they know it'll be over quickly, but make it last long, like an untreated toothache or psychological pain, and they'll start to go crazy.
my cat just got all her teeth out, and she was growling all the way home from the vet, but as soon as she got in the door, tail up, happy as could be, everything forgotten
a human would have bitched for weeks.
VeiledHeathen 3 years ago
Also Humans Make Poop.
SasukeRaiden 3 years ago
So animals cant think? they cant make intelligent decisions? Animals do consider their actions, but they just dont care, anything for survival. they dont murder for fun, they do it for food, they dont rip out other animals throat for fun, they do it for food.
RandommLetterss 3 years ago
"consider their actions and the impact those have on others" ~ you neglected to read the part after the and! You're right that what I wrote isn't always true, animals do consider their impact on others in a limited fashion, but as far as I know, cannot in any broad ethical sense.
VeiledHeathen 3 years ago
Which is why the concept of animal 'rights' is ludicrous. Animals, in the legal sense, have protections, not rights. Laws against cruelty are really about us and not animals.
cehbeach 3 years ago
"Laws against cruelty are really about us and not animals."
I'm not 100% sure what you mean by this, can you explain it in more detail if you get the chance? Thanks.
I agree that if a right is defined as something meant to be respected by two equal parties, we should use the word "protections" instead when it comes to animals.
VeiledHeathen 3 years ago
What I mean is that they are more for satisfying our own cultural sensibilities than for the sensibilities of the animals themselves. The laws are most certainly based on our cultural bias regarding one animal versus another. In most jurisdictions if you shoot a dog you might go to jail. But if you shoot a deer it's hunting or use a rat trap to kill 'vermin' your well within your rights.
cehbeach 3 years ago