WAYS OF SEEING (episode two - female nude) 1/4

[whotaughtyou]

CANADA XLOC DR SWABY LLM MASTERS CORRECT MA

[paracite]

"From earliest childhood she is taught and persuaded to survey herself continually. She has to survey everything she is and everything she does because how she appears to others, and particularly how she appears to men, is of crucial importance that is normally thought of as the success of her life."

[libraryofcorn]

John

you have made me think about something i sort of took for granted

[REDARMY1882]

hmmm .. i never think it before  ..

[SnyderRon]

Interesting.

[SkyRamsey]

@naughtybygenes Right around the 5 minute mark of this video they read from this passage. I was merely adding some commentary on it.

[rockingrobot]

@naughtybygenes 4:49

[donze52]

Great video

another video is

(Female Street Stories)

[SkyRamsey]

In Gen. 3:13-14 the devil was blamed for deceiving Eve. And God blamed Adam for not following His command and did what his wife asked even though he knew better. It was men doing exactly what God said would happen by blaming women as Adam did for what went wrong. Read the passage carefully. Adam "who was with her" ate of the fruit, she didn't go looking for him and trick him as has been taught. So, yeah, like John Berger says...you paint her nude, put a mirror in her hand then call her vain. =/

[oOMuzicBoxOo]

@SkyRamsey Take religion elsewhere. Not everyone believes the same things you do.

[SkyRamsey]

What really aggravates me is that this particular passage has been taught for centuries to imply that God made women subservient to men. (the word 'shall in this passage is a prognosis of things to come not a condemnation of women. "the man 'shall' rule over her", he would rule over her because he could since he's bigger and stronger). There is so much more meaning and depth to this passage than space here will allow one to convey.

[babu6719]

@SkyRamsey Anthropology doesn't support the Biblical view regarding this.

[SkyRamsey]

@babu6719 Not clear on what you mean. Be a little clearer....it doesn't support which view are you specifiying?

[Sarandib22]

FANTASTIC bit of social and historical commentary here!

[Jeorney]

Rubens always made the female nude look masculine and muscular. Is this a cultural view of beauty? Or is it deliberate, to detract from their feminine sexuality? Perhaps the church of the era ordered that female nudes should not evoke lustful thoughts in men.

[findegorgorito]

@Jeorney Do you really believe that female bodies are more lustful the thinner?

[Jeorney]

@findegorgorito I wasn't talking about the body fat as such. Apart from the face, I noticed the way Rubens portayed the female form as muscular and masculine. As for excess flesh, well that's either a personal taste or perhaps there is a cultural issue going on too. Well fed appearance to suggest oppulance lifestyle as opposed to the poorly fed - and thin - commoners. Too answer your question, I would find a healthy amount of body fat more appealing - but on classically feminine figure.

[Mira0Sekelsky]

@Jeorney I've never thought about the masculin representations of women by Rubens that way! That's a really good comment. Do you think that Michelangelo's women fall into that category as well?

[Jeorney]

@Mira0Sekelsky Thanks! Michelangelo is just the same in most cases. I wonder what women of the time thought about his art. One of his paintings made a female subject looked very feminine, but the model he used was a male. I have to admit, the more I think about this, the stranger it all seems. Even if there was a restriction on female models, he would still have some idea of the female form.

[Mira0Sekelsky]

@Jeorney Some historians say his 'interests' lay more with male models and workshop boys than with women, so if that is the case, then maybe he wouldn't have had much of an idea about the naked female form. He could have looked at the other representations by people like Giorgione or Titian. However, they were part of the Venetian school of 'colore' while he is firmly in the Florentine tradition of 'disegno'. Hmm, interesting! I probably should know the answer given my degree is Art History!! :/

[Jeorney]

@Mira0Sekelsky Your probably right, but even if his personal tastes were with the male form, he would still draw a woman as a woman sometimes. Perhaps there are some esoteric & mystical themes reflected in their art. Venus is a female god (eveningstar), but in other astronomical aspects, venus becomes Lucifer (morningstar). Its a similar theme to Yin-Yang, where one side contains the seed of its opposite self. Rubens said "My passion comes from the heavens, not from earthly musings".

[connoroneill98]

the bbc has got a new channel c boobies

[jonathantuttle420]

haha...i love how this could actually be on TV back in the day. Now it's all sara palin's alaska, two and a half men, and RuPaul's Drag race.

[kmancan]

Wow. I had a part time job showing movies and slides to Art History classes at the University of Toronto back in the day...showing this film over and over again - Great Stuff - Thanks for the post.

[winchesterxwolf]

Thankyou soooo much for putting this up! I needed to study this for my Art History essay :D

[henndri]

Wow kalau masuk kelas begini bisa deg degan melukis perempuan telanjang

[lovebrittney6]

I am a first year visual arts student and this video was recommended to me by my English professor. It's quite interesting.

[kmsabia]

This video was recommended to me by a friend who noticed parallels with it in my argument:

Female aspiration is defined by male desire.

My roomie wants implants. When I tell her she is fine as is, she replies, "im not getting them for others, but rather to make myself feel prettier"

So to me it seems that she's internalized male desire to the point that it's become indistinguishable from her own

[zecle]

this video will be removed soon because we see tits, because youtube is an american website and america is so full of stupidity concerning sexual things that it will eventually be deleted.

[snowheyoh321]

Wow this video generalizes so much!

Women look at men, and think about men too, you know!

[otomo129]

@snowheyoh321 Absolutely, it's just an stinking double moral standard issue, Women look at Men, Women desire Men, Women ***k Men too.

[AmbitiousVisionary]

Simply fascinating about humanity. Men love to watch women and women love to be watched. Well that explains our existence today of women being an object, the educational value of this video alone should be seen by anyone trying to figure out why their relationship isn't working. BRILLIANT!

[drakkonami]

@AmbitiousVisionary It's less stressful to watch. I like watching - you focus on beauty instead of having to attain it for yourself. I still know what it is to be watched, and to try to be watched - but I don't inherently enjoy it. I love to watch men as well... But the way that men like women to be watched - knowing that they are to be watched and prepared for it - and even then not quite perfect to be watched... it's exhausting.

[AmbitiousVisionary]

@drakkonami - If I do not see ME in the way he is looking at me, my romance engine will NOT engage. So it is not merely seeing vs being seen. No this is DEEPER. This certainly is exhausting to watch, but he has come the closest to our brain gender differences, than any other I have come across. I also think the female is the mirror image to the male, opposite. I see this in me when I communicate with people, I seem to become a reflection of them. To get a break, I have to be alone.

[hindsighter]

Nice lisp, John

[lorddan56]

therefore in essesence all women are judgemental by means of the public eye , to themselves and especially men, as to how they should appear and be looked at? it seems as if this guy puts himself in many perspectives.. the subject or the object... this guy is weird

[dimseeeen]

most women in paintings are fat with small boobs... wat bad taste

[Elcore]

@dimseeeen Changing standards - fat was once perceived as healthy and fertile in a time when most people were thin and infant mortality was high. Now it's the opposite because we're all fat and overpopulated. As for the small tits, I guess it's because the artists were distinguishing art from porn. Most artsy statues of men have tiny willies. If you look at the rare surviving examples of porn from the periods shown in the vid, the tits are generally more exaggerated.

[moobuzz8]

@dimseeeen why are you even watching this, shouldn't you be watching a rihanna video or something.

[Iishieboo]

@dimseeeen

Only because our standards of beauty in the western world has changed.

Also, I find fat women with small breasts quite lovely, thank you.

Beauty is subjective.

[TheGeneralCritic]

@dimseeeen Then I guess most paintings are realistic.

[hopenbeck]

hey its austin powers!

[mistersix420]

@hopenbeck i would have enjoyed those movies so much more...

[peckerdecker]

women nowadays (2010)  are the predators!

[StephenSaloArt]

I believe God's best creation is Women.

[throwntomato]

women are yummy!

[booedooet9]

wahhhh

[JaceMullen]

extremely interesting... it puts the female nuditiy in a unsinful way instead of porn

[prostolos01]

thank you!

[HJify]

thank you!

[kobidobidog]

Nutterpert my, you are showing your self to be a really nice guy. picking on small stuff like that.why don't you look at the content in stead of picking at small stuff. show me and everyone that your brain is larger that the insignificance of your compliant.

[uae12]

thank you very much for posting this! it was very helpful for me

[kobidobidog]

What I am saying is : Humans are repressing a natural impulse to see the nude human form and the need to have sex so intensely that

It has repressed the natural impulses that humans should have. I think that the ones who want to hide the body, genitalia, and so on are the ones who really want to see the nude body. I say to the human race, relax man, woman, whatever. The same reason a bulls testicles hang from the body with out a covering is the same reason a humans should hang as well.

[nutterperl]

u repeated yourself....idiot

[12valis]

Michel Foucault elucidates the point that those "who want to hide the body...are the ones who really want to see the body" in The History of Sexuality Vol. 1

[orphiusflux]

I agree. People are very uptight these days, which I find strange. I think that's why there is more aggressive behavior.

Violence and indifference is OK in our society, sex is bad.

[kobidobidog]

You are right 100% The world is upside down,and it is upside down in many ways. you have eyes that see.

[monkeytwineball]

That's not very practical... everything would smell like body oder, not to mention the menstrual cycle...

Then there's the fact that so many of us burn easily in the sun, cope poorly with the weather, skin is not very scratch resistant either.

Plus can you imagine how awkward it would be to sprint with your junk flopping around smacking your testicles? Women have a similar problem...

We wear cloths for good reason, just not the one everyone thinks.

[kobidobidog]

@monkeytwineball I am talking about clothing optional .Whoever choosing according to what they want to do according to the individual. If you wanted to run, prepare for it. I would not do jump roping without something on holding my nut sack from thwacking up, and down, for the same reason.

[monkeytwineball]

Yes, that would be a positive thing.

[spiltteeth]

This guy is so whipped

[weaselwomp]

haha! its so sad ppl believed all that horseshit from "the bible" when obviously it was some stupid artifiact wheeled out by the ruling class to justify a patriarchal hierarchal social and political structure. so dumb! they may as well have based their oppressive philosophy on the lord of the rings trilogy. that woulda at least been more believable.

[Vrael1022]

and a lot more interesting!!=D

[superwolf76]

I have this book. Highly recommended.

[SculptorRon]

I look at sculpting the female figure as one incedible challenge. And by the way, Eve didn't pick an apple.. Genesis just mentions a tree in the middle of the garden. Interesting video thanks for posting it.

[Lahama76]

4:50 - sadly, the text does in fact tell how Eve eats the the fruit and feeds it to Adam. She is made the scapegoat. In the Bible man and woman are not created equal. Eve is made from Adam, and Adam names her as he names the animals.

In the Qur'an , however - man and woman are created equal, and if anyone is to be blamed for the whole tree-incident it's Adam. Just a funny note - I teach RE

To avoid any misunderst.: I think we are all created equal but different - and "thank God for that" ;)

[carpekd]

Too bad the bible is nothing but lies.

[marioslittlebrother]

you can not prove or disprove it. Without that you can not quantify it as a lie or truth.

[sakahari]

lol.

[MaZEEZaM]

isnt there a vast contrast of how we perceive beauty today campared to when these paintings were done

[polly6polly]

awesome. thanks for posting these. I have the book but have never had a chance to see this.

[monkeepoo42]

thank you for posting these berger videos.

these are wonderful. thank you.

[empathy44]

This guys assertion places men at the center of viewing--it's about power. But, I disagree that women ONLY dream about themselves being looked at while men ONLY dream about women. I think both ways of seeing go on in both men and women. In other-words, both men and women dream of the opposite sex, and evaluate how they look to other people.

[slobblob97]

thats deep

[quietlikesnow]

Recommended after viewing- Laura Mulvey's classic essay Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema.

[kobidobidog]

People are contradicting themselves about the nude female by wanting to se a nude and condemning her at the same time. .

Do you think that if people would just relax about nudity people would accept nudity?

I want to see a massive amount of people naked just walking around doing what they would normally walking to work in mass, water skiing whatever. Just pause briefly on each scene. Zoom in you see naked people just relaxing., Working in their back yard water skiing whatever.

[vice2vursa]

I dont understand you.

[KHooves]

It all makes so much more sense now.

[kfarm2001]

Thank you for posting this program which I have wanted to see for many years. John Berger is one of my favourite people, I love and admire his writings (as Susan Sontag also did). He has been a profound influence on many writers and artists.

[GAR3456]

yeah indeed, whatever. interesting vid tho, john berger is something of a dude

[flightguy12]

sweet im the fist comment

[leoboiko]

And thus an old question of mine is now answered: yes, even high-quality documentaries get youtube-quality comments at youtube.

In other news, the first "related video" entry is: "Sex - naked babe (almost) HoT striptease"...