The Crucifixion of Jesus; Comments On S.Ally's View & A Response to Dr. Craig

[zeinabhassann]

with the technology that we have everybody is watching this video

i mean not only the opposing side but also the audience & his supporters

they all know that he keeps losing when it comes to debating Shabir Ally.

so William Craig no more debate for you. you just need to retire or may be,

be a preacher in the church. there are many who wants to dispute to what you said.

[koroigetsuga]

Fundamentally the case of what happened on the cross is irrelevant for Islam. As long as at the end of the day we get a Jesus who is hidden by God into occultation and will return during the messianic stage

[skepticnyc]

Whether Jesus Christ was:

-killed be means of impalement

-impaled regardless of whether or not he dies

Why doesn't Ally concede that Jesus was most likely killed on the cross?

I don't understand why then he cannot concede this point which is taken almost as absolute certainty.

-an atheist

[Nazam44]

@skepticnyc Jesus surviving the crucifixion is the alternative view that is presented to Jesus' resurrection. It's under the light of this claim that Ally and a Muslim would doubt Jesus' death in the first instance. Dr Craig's argument was that the alternative view that Ally presents contradicts what the Quran says about the crucifixion of Jesus. This video is to show that it dose not but rather is consistent with the way in which the word is used in the Quran.

[skepticnyc]

@Nazam44

I understand, but my question is simply:

Why doesn't Ally concede that Jesus was most likely killed on the cross?

I don't understand why then he cannot concede this point which is taken almost as absolute certainty.

...If it's because of what the Qu'ran states, thats doesn't seem like a good reason.

[Nazam44]

@skepticnyc Those who take the death of Jesus as a certainty on historical grounds do so on the assumption that he did not get up and walk around again. If we assert that Jesus was seen alive again after his crucifixion this, to any historian, must raise the question of the reality of his death. Christians take in on faith that the entire Gospel narrative is true.

[Nazam44]

@Nazam44 CONT. Historians generally would not take the physical resurrection of Jesus, as is reported in the gospels, as a fact. For them, Jesus died and remains dead as dead men generally do.

The assertion that Jesus was walking about with his disciples again is found in the same gospels (except Mark) that assert his crucifixion. But a crucifixion is an ordinary event. A resurrection an extraordinary one. Believers in the gospels will accept both declarations.

[Nazam44]

@Nazam44 CONT. But outsiders will more likely accept the report about the ordinary event, in the absence of any mitigating factor, and remain sceptical about the extraordinary event in the absence of reasonable proof. In our debates I have arguee that in the light of the Gospel accounts and history, it is more plausible to argue that an early Christian belief, before the forumulation of the gospel accounts was that Jesus was assumed into heaven at some point.

[Nazam44]

@Nazam44 CONT. If we take this to be from the tomb, as Mark seems to do, then Muslims and Christians have little reason to dispute with each other on the puzzle of Jesus's end. We both believe that he was assumed into heaven.

[skepticnyc]

@Nazam44

Okay, I see. I just had a little trouble understanding his reasons. It seemed to me that Ally was trying to harmonize the bible and the Qu'ran.

I believe Jesus died on the cross, and his disciples had visions of him.

[Keanu212]

well put together mashAllah